Does America need nationalized heathcare?

[STJ]

I say yes and heres why.


6 years ago my mother got breast cancer she worked at a small company with crap insurance. While she was fighting the cancer she had to fight that crap insurance company to pay the bills. Her policy limt was 20,000 dollars she hit that in 2 months the rest she got screwed into paying herself which came to over 250,000 dolllars.

2 years latter it came back same small company same crap insurance she died over 500,000 dollars in debt,.

Lets discuss.

[Bitter Ashes]

Free healthcare is a must!
Frankly, I cannot imagine life without the NHS, despite it's many flaws. Those flaws are down to capitalism stiffling and throttling it though. When there's a shortage of nurses in the NHS and nurses are bieng laid off I really despair. Unlike private hospitals, if they need more staff then they're getting more money in to pay for it. Of course, I wouldnt be suprised if the bourgeois in control of the private hospitals would choose to pocket the extra cash and whip the nurses harder instead.
The NHS hospitals on the other hand recieve the same funding depending on what the goverment allocates it and it's not directly increased by higher demand.
Both systems fail under capitalism, but at least there's an option open to the poor with the NHS, even if it is sub-standard.
I'm sorry to hear that you, your Mother and the rest of your family have suffered even more as a result of this :(

[RedAnarchist]

Nationalised healthcare works, as many countries have proven. I'm sorry to hear about your mother and your family, it must be awful being denied healthcare just because you aren't rich enough.

[Glorious Union]

Free healthcare poses a problem, as many people could choke up the hospitals with menial unimportant things like a possibly infected cut or scratch or some other needless paranoia. I beleive that instead, there should be a universal flat charge for anything medical related. If you want a heart transplant it would cost the same as having a doctor hand you a bandade. There would be exceptions of course, such as those who need to have multiple visits to the doctor or are chronicly ill. Those would receive free visits of course, as their condition would require it and the constant visiting would cost quite a bit over time.

Anybody agree with that idea?

[Communist Theory]

Free healthcare poses a problem, as many people could choke up the hospitals with menial unimportant things like a possibly infected cut or scratch or some other needless paranoia. I beleive that instead, there should be a universal flat charge for anything medical related. If you want a heart transplant it would cost the same as having a doctor hand you a bandade. There would be exceptions of course, such as those who need to have multiple visits to the doctor or are chronicly ill. Those would receive free visits of course, as their condition would require it and the constant visiting would cost quite a bit over time.

Anybody agree with that idea?
Agreed. That is a very good idea.

[Bitter Ashes]

Free healthcare poses a problem, as many people could choke up the hospitals with menial unimportant things like a possibly infected cut or scratch or some other needless paranoia. I beleive that instead, there should be a universal flat charge for anything medical related. If you want a heart transplant it would cost the same as having a doctor hand you a bandade. There would be exceptions of course, such as those who need to have multiple visits to the doctor or are chronicly ill. Those would receive free visits of course, as their condition would require it and the constant visiting would cost quite a bit over time.

Anybody agree with that idea?
Well, how it works here is that we have GP surgeries, specialist clinics, hospital A&E and hospital wards.

If it's a life or death emergency then we rush them to A&E (accident and emergency) either by ourselves, or by phoning an ambulance. Once there they are assessed by a triage nurse (or not if it's very obvious that somebody needs help right away), stabilised and diagnosed quickly there and if nessicary treated on the wards for things that are more long term.

For things that are not an emergency people go to thier GP (General Practicioner (sp?)). Here they phone up in advance and book an appointment to be seen and diagnosed. For minor things the GP can write out a prescription and send the patient on thier way. If it's something that the doctor cant deal with then they will reffer you to a specialist at a clinic (walk in clinics do exist, but you usualy need a GP's refferal first for most of them). If the GP spots something serious that needs treating absolutly immediatly then you're whisked away to A&E.

The clincs are usualy on hospital grounds and you just go there as an outpatient to be further diagnosed. If it's something that can be sorted with medication then the clinic will usualy send you back to your GP with your diagnosis and ask them to prescribe you the relevant drugs and give instructions on how to monitor you if need be. They may also ask you to return to the clinic for regular checkups.

If the clinic thinks you need an operation then you are put on a hospital ward at a pre-arranged time, have your operation and then recover on the ward until you're sent home. You'll probably still be an outpatient to clinic afterwards.

It probably all seems more complicated than it really is. The end effect is that anyone with an ingrown toenail, or wart on thier finger goes to the GP and not a hospital A&E ward and diverting "the crash team" from using thier defibrilators. You could make a flow chart of it actualy.

It should be a good system, but it's got funding problems in the UK.

[STJ]

Nationalised healthcare works, as many countries have proven. I'm sorry to hear about your mother and your family, it must be awful being denied healthcare just because you aren't rich enough.
Thanks for that and it is really bad here the healthcare system sucks only works for the rich people everyone eles gets screwed.

[STJ]

Free healthcare is a must!
Frankly, I cannot imagine life without the NHS, despite it's many flaws. Those flaws are down to capitalism stiffling and throttling it though. When there's a shortage of nurses in the NHS and nurses are bieng laid off I really despair. Unlike private hospitals, if they need more staff then they're getting more money in to pay for it. Of course, I wouldnt be suprised if the bourgeois in control of the private hospitals would choose to pocket the extra cash and whip the nurses harder instead.
The NHS hospitals on the other hand recieve the same funding depending on what the goverment allocates it and it's not directly increased by higher demand.
Both systems fail under capitalism, but at least there's an option open to the poor with the NHS, even if it is sub-standard.
I'm sorry to hear that you, your Mother and the rest of your family have suffered even more as a result of this :(

Thanks for that comrade. Your healthcare system works a hell of alot better than ours.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Here in Canada we have Universal Health Care. It's a great system because everybody gets the care they need. However, alot of people don't like it because wait times are longer because we're lacking medical professionals right now. Last i've heard, workers in the medical sector wanted to go on strike.

[STJ]

I have a question do you comrades in the UK have to pay for anything like copays?

[STJ]

Here in Canada we have Universal Health Care. It's a great system because everybody gets the care they need. However, alot of people don't like it because wait times are longer because we're lacking medical professionals right now. Last i've heard, workers in the medical sector wanted to go on strike.
Do you have any kind of treatments you have to pay for?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Do you have any kind of treatments you have to pay for?

We do still have to pay for dental and some prescription drugs. Right now my teeth are worth over $6000!

[STJ]

We do still have to pay for dental and some prescription drugs. Right now my teeth are worth over $6000!
$6000 for your teeth??

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I think we should have universal health care.

But to be fair, we should also have a program for burning fat and require people who want free health care to use.

[Bitter Ashes]

I have a question do you comrades in the UK have to pay for anything like copays?
We pay about £7 for each prescription that we collect, although that's a flat fee. You can get those for free though if you're recieving certain goverment welfare benefits (NOT if you're just on low-income as they suggest).

We dont do private health insurance at all unless we want to go to get private treatment for definate. It's worth mentioning that most people rely on the NHS, so competition in the private sector is low and that means that private healthcare is a LOT more expensive than over in the United States. This prohibits anybody who's not what could be described as "middle class income" (they're not really a class are they?) from even considering it.

We do pay a small ammount of what's called "National Insurance" from our wages though. This is a bit like an income tax and it supposidly pays for healthcare and welfare benefits, although medical treatment would never be refused if you hadnt paid that much. I dont think they even keep tracks of it.

There are some treatments that are not covered under the NHS too, mainly cosmetic, but some of it can be whatever the PCT (Primary Care Trust) deciedes it can cut costs on, like refusing operations for smokers.

Dentistry is only subsidised on the NHS, unless you require an operation (usualy having the tooth pulled), where you can get it for free if you're on benefits. Yes, that really does mean that they'd rather see somebody who's poor rot thier teeth away and then and only then, offer to step in and have them pulled and ask for money to replace them. There's a reason I havent seen a dentist since 2003...

[LOLseph Stalin]

$6000 for your teeth??

Yes, because of my damn braces. It's a hell of a burden on my dad.

[STJ]

We pay about £7 for each prescription that we collect, although that's a flat fee. You can get those for free though if you're recieving certain goverment welfare benefits (NOT if you're just on low-income as they suggest).

We dont do private health insurance at all unless we want to go to get private treatment for definate. It's worth mentioning that most people rely on the NHS, so competition in the private sector is low and that means that private healthcare is a LOT more expensive than over in the United States. This prohibits anybody who's not what could be described as "middle class income" (they're not really a class are they?) from even considering it.

We do pay a small ammount of what's called "National Insurance" from our wages though. This is a bit like an income tax and it supposidly pays for healthcare and welfare benefits, although medical treatment would never be refused if you hadnt paid that much. I dont think they even keep tracks of it.

There are some treatments that are not covered under the NHS too, mainly cosmetic, but some of it can be whatever the PCT (Primary Care Trust) deciedes it can cut costs on, like refusing operations for smokers.

Dentistry is only subsidised on the NHS, unless you require an operation (usualy having the tooth pulled), where you can get it for free if you're on benefits. Yes, that really does mean that they'd rather see somebody who's poor rot thier teeth away and then and only then, offer to step in and have them pulled and ask for money to replace them. There's a reason I havent seen a dentist since 2003...
Thanks for the info. Once again your healtcare system is light years better than ours.

[STJ]

Yes, because of my damn braces. It's a hell of a burden on my dad.
I bet i am sorry for your dad.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I bet i am sorry for your dad.

Yea. He says he has to sacrifice other things because of my teeth. There should be Universal Dental Care too!

[STJ]

Yea. He says he has to sacrifice other things because of my teeth. There should be Universal Dental Care too!
Hell yes there should be!!!

[Dooga Aetrus Blackrazor]

Yea. He says he has to sacrifice other things because of my teeth. There should be Universal Dental Care too!

I was fortunate. I was missing I don't know how many teeth. I have a genetic disorder that caused this. It enabled me to get covered by a charity. I had braces, jaw surgery, and dental implants (the teeth feel identical so I don't remember how many). Altogether, it cost at least over 10,000 dollars. Maybe even over 15,000.

The argument is that dental problems are cosmetic. Cosmetic disadvantages (not looking as good as others) don't justify government assistance. I'm not sure how we could distinguish this from plastic surgery (or if we should). It certainly is a struggle being different than others, but some people can't medically/dentally fix their differences. If everyone like me goes around changing themselves to be normal, we might marginalize those individuals. I think there is a way out of this. My first thought is that people are naturally superficial. Ideally, they shouldn't be, but we can't change nature. Because of this, we should cover superficial disadvantages because they translate into real disadvantages.

As for the fixed cost idea, I disagree 100% with that. Public health care benefits from taxing the rich (who exploit people for high profit) to get a high amount of income. Income based taxation is essential to funding many public programs.

A fixed cost would be impossible for some people to pay. If it wasn't, it would be incredibly cheap and unable to fund public health care. We would then have to implement taxation anyway. Furthermore, if a fixed cost somehow allowed everyone access to health care, it would benefit the rich. They would pay 50 dollars a procedure and the poor would pay 50 dollars a procedures. 50 dollars is nothing to a rich person and everything to people living in poverty. People living in poverty are also more likely to have health problems do to extra stress put on them by the exploitation in capitalist society.

We have distinguished health care as a fundamental human right. If we could, we wouldn't tax anyone to fund it. We have to because of practical reasons, and we tax the rich higher because of ethical/economic reasons.

[STJ]

I was fortunate. I was missing I don't know how many teeth. I have a genetic disorder that caused this. It enabled me to get covered by a charity. I had braces, jaw surgery, and dental implants (the teeth feel identical so I don't remember how many). Altogether, it cost at least over 10,000 dollars. Maybe even over 15,000.

The argument is that dental problems are cosmetic. Cosmetic disadvantages (not looking as good as others) don't justify government assistance. I'm not sure how we could distinguish this from plastic surgery (or if we should). It certainly is a struggle being different than others, but some people can't medically/dentally fix their differences. If everyone like me goes around changing themselves to be normal, we might marginalize those individuals. I think there is a way out of this. My first thought is that people are naturally superficial. Ideally, they shouldn't be, but we can't change nature. Because of this, we should cover superficial disadvantages because they translate into real disadvantages.

As for the fixed cost idea, I disagree 100% with that. Public health care benefits from taxing the rich (who exploit people for high profit) to get a high amount of income. Income based taxation is essential to funding many public programs.

A fixed cost would be impossible for some people to pay. If it wasn't, it would be incredibly cheap and unable to fund public health care. We would then have to implement taxation anyway. Furthermore, if a fixed cost somehow allowed everyone access to health care, it would benefit the rich. They would pay 50 dollars a procedure and the poor would pay 50 dollars a procedures. 50 dollars is nothing to a rich person and everything to people living in poverty. People living in poverty are also more likely to have health problems do to extra stress put on them by the exploitation in capitalist society.

We have distinguished health care as a fundamental human right. If we could, we wouldn't tax anyone to fund it. We have to because of practical reasons, and we tax the rich higher because of ethical/economic reasons.
I am sorry to here that comrade.

[Bitter Ashes]

It's worth pointing this out too. Free healthcare is not the be all and end all. To use the life expectancy example...
Life expectancy for even most deprived parts of London is 73. In parts of Glasgow, it's 54.
(sources)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jan/21/health.politics
http://www.lho.org.uk/Download/Public/8811/1/Health_Inequalities_Report_4.pdf
Where I am, West Yorkshire, there's a 15 year difference between the life expectancy of the rich fenced communities (usualy holiday homes for Chelsea residents) and the rest of us workers everywhere else.
(source)
http://www.awya.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/B6329914-24DA-4023-BDD5-8558CB5BEBDA/0/Health_LLA_report_101207.pdf
And on top of that all, there's of course the news that one NHS hospital has decieded to kill 300 of its patients to cut costs to meet goverment targets and as the news rolled in afterwards, they were not alone.

[STJ]

It's worth pointing this out too. Free healthcare is not the be all and end all. To use the life expectancy example...
Life expectancy for even most deprived parts of London is 73. In parts of Glasgow, it's 54. The average for West Yorkshire isnt much higher either.
(sources)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2006/jan/21/health.politics
http://www.lho.org.uk/Download/Public/8811/1/Health_Inequalities_Report_4.pdf
Why the huge diffirence is the healthcare better in London?

[Bitter Ashes]

The reason commonly given by Londoners is basicly down to higher wages which means they can afford to eat better and are more likely to be able to afford private healthcare. I did once hear as a response from one that "Dogs are not supposed to outlive thier masters" too, although I doubt it was a serious comment.
I wouldnt be suprised if London recieves more funding for it's NHS services though. They recieve more for every other public service.

[STJ]

The reason commonly given by Londoners is basicly down to higher wages which means they can afford to eat better and are more likely to be able to afford private healthcare. I did once hear as a response from one that "Dogs are not supposed to outlive thier masters" too, although I doubt it was a serious comment.
I wouldnt be suprised if London recieves more funding for it's NHS services though. They recieve more for every other public service.
That might explain the huge diffirence.

[jbaez]

I believe a universal healthcare system is necessary and should be implemented.

However, I also agree with Glorious Union's idea of a flat rate if universal healthcare is absolutely unachievable.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I was fortunate. I was missing I don't know how many teeth. I have a genetic disorder that caused this. It enabled me to get covered by a charity. I had braces, jaw surgery, and dental implants (the teeth feel identical so I don't remember how many). Altogether, it cost at least over 10,000 dollars. Maybe even over 15,000.

Well at least you got aid from a charity. My dad's insurance policy only covers about $2000 of the cost for mine.


The argument is that dental problems are cosmetic. Cosmetic disadvantages (not looking as good as others) don't justify government assistance. I'm not sure how we could distinguish this from plastic surgery (or if we should).

That's a pretty ridiculous argument for the government to use. For alot of people dental problems aren't cosmetic. Some people can't even eat because their teeth are so bad. My mom is a perfect example. She's low income and can't afford to get her teeth fixed so she can eat without feeling pain.

[9]

There should absolutely be universal healthcare. I'm glad to see no one opposed to it.

[STJ]

There should absolutely be universal healthcare. I'm glad to see no one opposed to it.
Me to universal healthcare is the only way to fix all the problems.

[STJ]

I also think the dentist should be covered to cuz its freaking expensive to wether you have insurance or not.

[Rjevan]

Free healthcare is an absoulte must! Letting people die because they can't afford a doctor is definitely one of the most disgusting things about capitalism.

As RA said, it worked in several countries, so it's not utopian but I see several problems like waiting time (but honestly, I rather wait a bit longer and have therefore free healthcare, than not having to wait at all but pay myself to death after a plain consultation) or the fact, that some medics would work sloppy with the "Oh well, I get payed anyway, so why all the stress?"-attitude. But this is the fact with some doctors in this system, too ("Well, if I'll lose this patient, so what, there are enough waiting and at least I can ripp of this guy."), so we would have to make sure that only responsible people are allowed to study medicine and become doctors.

Here in Germany the health insurance funds pay for some things (usually the cheap ones), for other things they don't (usually the expensive ones) and if you suffer longer time from a serious disease they will increase your contributions.
People who can afford the much more expensive private health insurance are massively favoured by the medics and the huge majority of people who have to rely on the state health insurance have to face very long waiting times plus the have to pay 10€ "Praxisgebühren" for every time they consult a doctor. :thumbdown:

I'm sorry to hear that about your mother, STJ. :(

[LOLseph Stalin]

Free healthcare is an absoulte must! Letting people die because they can't afford a doctor is definitely one of the most disgusting things about capitalism.

Well said. :)

Tommy Douglas was actually voted one of the greatest Canadians. For those of you who don't know, he's the guy who created Canada's Universal Health Care system.

[STJ]

Free healthcare is an absoulte must! Letting people die because they can't afford a doctor is definitely one of the most disgusting things about capitalism.

As RA said, it worked in several countries, so it's not utopian but I see several problems like waiting time (but honestly, I rather wait a bit longer and have therefore free healthcare, than not having to wait at all but pay myself to death after a plain consultation) or the fact, that some medics would work sloppy with the "Oh well, I get payed anyway, so why all the stress?"-attitude. But this is the fact with some doctors in this system, too ("Well, if I'll lose this patient, so what, there are enough waiting and at least I can ripp of this guy."), so we would have to make sure that only responsible people are allowed to study medicine and become doctors.

Here in Germany the health insurance funds pay for some things (usually the cheap ones), for other things they don't (usually the expensive ones) and if you suffer longer time from a serious disease they will increase your contributions.
People who can afford the much more expensive private health insurance are massively favoured by the medics and the huge majority of people who have to rely on the state health insurance have to face very long waiting times plus the have to pay 10€ "Praxisgebühren" for every time they consult a doctor. :thumbdown:

I'm sorry to hear that about your mother, STJ. :(

Thank you comrade.

Every country needs something like Englands NHC it works.

[bruno]

I can't understant "nationalized healthcare" and "universal healthcare" terms. I think leftists must not defend "national" solutions.

[Lynx]

Right wing scaremongers in the US refer to it as "socialized" medicine.

[STJ]

Well said. :)

Tommy Douglas was actually voted one of the greatest Canadians. For those of you who don't know, he's the guy who created Canada's Universal Health Care system.

How long ago was this created?

[LOLseph Stalin]

How long ago was this created?

I'm pretty sure it was created in like the 1960's, but Tommy Douglas just got voted one of the greatest Canadians a few years ago.

[STJ]

Right wing scaremongers in the US refer to it as "socialized" medicine.
I know what a load of nonsense.

[STJ]

I'm pretty sure it was created in like the 1960's, but Tommy Douglas just got voted one of the greatest Canadians a few years ago.
I can see why Tommy Dougles was voted one the greatest Canadians we need him in America.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I can see why Tommy Dougles was voted one the greatest Canadians we need him in America.

Well he's ours, plus i'm pretty sure he's dead. Besides, he's one of the few things we have to be proud of.

[STJ]

Well he's ours, plus i'm pretty sure he's dead. Besides, he's one of the few things we have to be proud of.
Damn it at least i tried to get him over here.

[Brother No. 1]

1000$ for getting braces and 2000$ for getting my wisdom teeth removed. Does American need Nationalized healthcare? Yes I believe so.

[LOLseph Stalin]

1000$ for getting braces

Only $1000? :blink: My braces were $6000!

[Brother No. 1]

Thats what I call crime.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Thats what I call crime.

Of course. Capitalism: Organized Crime.

[STJ]

$1000 or $6000 they are both robbing us.

[Brother No. 1]

the US always robs its civilains. Has done that ever since it was born.

[Bitter Ashes]

$1000 or $6000 they are both robbing us.
Christ, you know what that is? That's a massive incentive to keep large ammounts of cash in the bank for the bankers to pay around with, lose and then get bailed out on. If people didnt feel like they needed to keep several thousands of dollars in the bank, then I'm sure you'd have no supporters for bank bailouts at all.
Amazing how the failure of providing free healthcare effects other things indirectly too huh?

[STJ]

Christ, you know what that is? That's a massive incentive to keep large ammounts of cash in the bank for the bankers to pay around with, lose and then get bailed out on. If people didnt feel like they needed to keep several thousands of dollars in the bank, then I'm sure you'd have no supporters for bank bailouts at all.
Amazing how the failure of providing free healthcare effects other things indirectly too huh?
Yes it is those fucking cappie bastards!!

[STJ]

the US always robs its civilains. Has done that ever since it was born.
Yes it does.

[STJ]

Question i have heard that the NHC system in England covers dentist is this true?

[Bitter Ashes]

Question i have heard that the NHC system in England covers dentist is this true?
Hiya. I already answered this a bit earlier in this thread STJ :)


Dentistry is only subsidised on the NHS, unless you require an operation (usualy having the tooth pulled), where you can get it for free if you're on benefits. Yes, that really does mean that they'd rather see somebody who's poor rot thier teeth away and then and only then, offer to step in and have them pulled and ask for money to replace them. There's a reason I havent seen a dentist since 2003...

[STJ]

Hiya. I already answered this a bit earlier in this thread STJ :)
Whoops sorry i missed it.:lol:Thanks for reposting it.

[STJ]

Of course. Capitalism: Organized Crime.
Yes it fucking is and we need to stop it.

[Invincible Summer]

Lots of right-wingers say that the "universal health care system is collapsing" and they try to "prove" how it's not working.

The fact of the matter is, the system isn't breaking down, but as privatization takes over the hospitals and health services, they try to cut costs and these cutbacks are damaging the system, not the universal health care system itself.

[STJ]

Lots of right-wingers say that the "universal health care system is collapsing" and they try to "prove" how it's not working.

The fact of the matter is, the system isn't breaking down, but as privatization takes over the hospitals and health services, they try to cut costs and these cutbacks are damaging the system, not the universal health care system itself.
What a joke the right is. They could careless if people die from these cuts.

[an apple]

I head that the NHS was quite good. Though France is supposed to have the best.

[STJ]

Any idea how the French system works?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Any idea how the French system works?

I'm pretty sure there's is Universal. Not sure though.

[STJ]

Thanks for the info.

[Le Libérer]

The health care system has to be reformed in the US. I know in the polls the majority of citizens want less costly health care. The US has the most expensive health care in the world, and the majority of the costs end up on those who are the sickest. My question would be, how will the US go about reforming the present system?

The current health care system is a complete failure. The present conduct of capitalistic behavior, will guaranteed more of the same outcomes.

Another thing that comes to mind is, why are present insurance companies rooting for Obamas health plan? They must foresee their businesses growing as a result of reform. Also, health care companies surely realize that the status quo is no longer an option. Unless some big changes are made in the health care system, it has no where to except collapse. Then the only choice would be, universal health care.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I think if the US cut down on their military budget Universal Health Care would be much more affordable for them. In the current state of things, there's only so much the US government can afford. They're trillions of dollars in debt. They expect citizens to pay this off with their tax money when it could be going towards better things.

[Brother No. 1]

the Us will do that when the get a Smart and Intellegent leader.

[LOLseph Stalin]

the Us will do that when the get a Smart and Intellegent leader.

Somehow I don't see that happening. I still think Barack Obama is an improvement from George Bush, but some of his policies are questionable.

[Brother No. 1]

Yep. Anything is better then Gerogre Bush now. Obamas not a Socialist thus I dont buy some of his lies..though I like he wants European forgiveness for the Americans Arrogence.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Yep. Anything is better then Gerogre Bush now. Obamas not a Socialist thus I dont buy some of his lies..though I like he wants European forgiveness for the Americans Arrogence.


Alot of idiot Republicans try to say Obama is Socialist. It's ridiculous. Obviously they have no idea what Socialism really is.

[Brother No. 1]

Socialism is gaining through a actual FREE election and haveing EQUALITY,controling major bussiness's, and have FREE Health Care and Education.

[STJ]

The health care system has to be reformed in the US. I know in the polls the majority of citizens want less costly health care. The US has the most expensive health care in the world, and the majority of the costs end up on those who are the sickest. My question would be, how will the US go about reforming the present system?

The current health care system is a complete failure. The present conduct of capitalistic behavior, will guaranteed more of the same outcomes.

Another thing that comes to mind is, why are present insurance companies rooting for Obamas health plan? They must foresee their businesses growing as a result of reform. Also, health care companies surely realize that the status quo is no longer an option. Unless some big changes are made in the health care system, it has no where to except collapse. Then the only choice would be, universal health care.
I think a part of the problem is lawyers and all those useless lawsuits they bring. I was talking to my doctor and he said he pays a million dollars a year for insurance for his office because all those lawsuits. Get rid of the blood sucking lawyers is a good start.

[Bitter Ashes]

I do honestly wonder how private healthcare was ever legal anywhere.
I mean, I've had first aid training and one of the things you're told is that if you're ever in a situation where first aid could be used to help somebody and you refuse to practice it, you are liable for assault charges, grievous bodily harm, or even murder. That makes sense to me. I mean, if you're able to save somebody's life and you refuse to do so then you're directly responsible for thier deaths.
So, can you even begin to imagine me kneeling over somebody who's dieng and telling them to cough up the cash or I'll let them die? Can you imagine the controversy? And quite rightly so!
The thing is, private hospitals do this every single day. They withhold vital lifesaving healthcare unless they pay up. Not only is it immoral and should be illegal, but also a direct contravention of the hypocratic oath.
Even worse, a substantial number of healtcare proffesionals in the private sector were trained and recieved thier qualifications from the public sector. So, they take the means of production away from the public sector and divert it to the bourgeois' pockets and while they're at it, kill the people who cannot afford private healthcare.
How on earth was this ever legal and accepted? Why on earth has nobody taken a private hospital to court when they are refused life saving treatment? Totaly disgusting.

[Le Libérer]

I think a part of the problem is lawyers and all those useless lawsuits they bring. I was talking to my doctor and he said he pays a million dollars a year for insurance for his office because all those lawsuits. Get rid of the blood sucking lawyers is a good start.
Sure lawyers are one of the reasons for high cost healthcare. Malpractice insurance forces doctors to practice defensive-like medicine, and how good is that for the patient in the long run? Over medication, which in turn makes health care more expensive, and from what we are seeing causing more medical problems in the long run. When I think of over medicating, I think of the vaccine issues in children. I was reading a report recently (I have small children in my life) that in 1960, children were given 3 vaccines, now there are 32 vaccines giving to American children before they reach school age. Sure vaccines now include technology we couldnt even test for in the 60s, but what exactly are in those vaccines? Do we really know?

Even in a capitalist society, there is no competition with healthcare. For instance, when a cancer patient finds out they must undergo radiation and kemo, unlike going out and buying a car, they cant comparison shop.

In the case of pharmaceuticals, the US designed the system so that new drugs will be expensive. I remember when anti-virals first came on the market for HIV clients. Many people died within the first 6 months of diagnosis because they were so expensive. Plus, there was a race on who would be the first to offer the best treatment because they knew if they were the company that got there first, they would make the most profits. They would have patent protection (talk about the golden goose) just because they would be the company for breakthrough medication. The more impressive the drug, the more the company can charge, regardless of the actual cost of producing the pill. Of course the better alternative, would be what Cuba does and export vaccines and other drugs for free. Can you imagine what would happen in Africa with the HIV status, if Glaxo were forced to supply Africa with the protease inhibitor, Agenerase, to stay in business in this country?

Its going to be very interesting to watch Obama attempt a free system in a highly profitable monopoly. How do you get a very profitable industry as the US health care system, to say, okay we are giving up a huge chunk of our profits for humanitarian reasons?

[STJ]

Sure lawyers are one of the reasons for high cost healthcare. Malpractice insurance forces doctors to practice defensive-like medicine, and how good is that for the patient in the long run? Over medication, which in turn makes health care more expensive, and from what we are seeing causing more medical problems in the long run. When I think of over medicating, I think of the vaccine issues in children. I was reading a report recently (I have small children in my life) that in 1960, children were given 3 vaccines, now there are 32 vaccines giving to American children before they reach school age. Sure vaccines now include technology we couldnt even test for in the 60s, but what exactly are in those vaccines? Do we really know?

Even in a capitalist society, there is no competition with healthcare. For instance, when a cancer patient finds out they must undergo radiation and kemo, unlike going out and buying a car, they cant comparison shop.

In the case of pharmaceuticals, the US designed the system so that new drugs will be expensive. I remember when anti-virals first came on the market for HIV clients. Many people died within the first 6 months of diagnosis because they were so expensive. Plus, there was a race on who would be the first to offer the best treatment because they knew if they were the company that got there first, they would make the most profits. They would have patent protection (talk about the golden goose) just because they would be the company for breakthrough medication. The more impressive the drug, the more the company can charge, regardless of the actual cost of producing the pill. Of course the better alternative, would be what Cuba does and export vaccines and other drugs for free. Can you imagine what would happen in Africa with the HIV status, if Glaxo were forced to supply Africa with the protease inhibitor, Agenerase, to stay in business in this country?

Its going to be very interesting to watch Obama attempt a free system in a highly profitable monopoly. How do you get a very profitable industry as the US health care system, to say, okay we are giving up a huge chunk of our profits for humanitarian reasons?


The goverment needs to set limits on what people can win through lawsuits. My god 32 vaccines is a hell of alot.

The crazy amounts of money drug companys charge is another huge problem here. My moms kemo meds cost her $2000 dollars a treatment. We need price contol in this country they have it in everyother western country.

Obama and this mess will be very interesting to watch.

[STJ]

I do honestly wonder how private healthcare was ever legal anywhere.
I mean, I've had first aid training and one of the things you're told is that if you're ever in a situation where first aid could be used to help somebody and you refuse to practice it, you are liable for assault charges, grievous bodily harm, or even murder. That makes sense to me. I mean, if you're able to save somebody's life and you refuse to do so then you're directly responsible for thier deaths.
So, can you even begin to imagine me kneeling over somebody who's dieng and telling them to cough up the cash or I'll let them die? Can you imagine the controversy? And quite rightly so!
The thing is, private hospitals do this every single day. They withhold vital lifesaving healthcare unless they pay up. Not only is it immoral and should be illegal, but also a direct contravention of the hypocratic oath.
Even worse, a substantial number of healtcare proffesionals in the private sector were trained and recieved thier qualifications from the public sector. So, they take the means of production away from the public sector and divert it to the bourgeois' pockets and while they're at it, kill the people who cannot afford private healthcare.
How on earth was this ever legal and accepted? Why on earth has nobody taken a private hospital to court when they are refused life saving treatment? Totaly disgusting.
Quoted for truth.

[STJ]

I think if the US cut down on their military budget Universal Health Care would be much more affordable for them. In the current state of things, there's only so much the US government can afford. They're trillions of dollars in debt. They expect citizens to pay this off with their tax money when it could be going towards better things.
Thats a good idea to bad the retards who run this country will never do it.

[Brother No. 1]

Maybe if the US, if miricals were possible, could act like the CCCP health care wouldnt be a problem. But the Anti-Socialists here are thus to stubborn and arrogent to do that.

[leggy leftist]

I think we should have universal health care.

But to be fair, we should also have a program for burning fat and require people who want free health care to use.

The answer to this "dilemma" is not just universal health care. It is universal gyms and universal personal trainers. And access to basic preventive health care where patients can be educated about their risk factors. It is simply not realistic to say that people who are not "working on their weight" should not have access to health care. It's also inhumane.

Overweight is multifactorial in cause. There is obviously plenty of evidence that losing body fat, especially the visceral fat, decreases health risk factors, but education is key. Motivation comes from the individual patient, but the support system needs to be strong as well.

I think the stressors of living under a capitalist regime can contribute to health problems like obesity, depression and other mental illness! :(

[LOLseph Stalin]

You have a point, Leggy Leftist. Oftentimes people do become obese due to their lifestyle, but there are also people who being "overweight" is just naturally in their genes. JUst like how it's natural for some people to be really skinny.

[leggy leftist]

I was talking to my doctor and he said he pays a million dollars a year for insurance for his office because all those lawsuits. Get rid of the blood sucking lawyers is a good start.

This is a blatant lie. US 1M$ a year in malpractice equates to over 80,000$ a month. Even if your doc is the most reputable neurosurgeon or obstetrician in the country, she's not paying anywhere near this in malpractice. ObGyn's still have the highest malpractice rates and they are not paying such ridiculous numbers. They don't even make that much per month.

The problem with health care in the U.S. is not the lawyers. It is the involvement of private insurance companies who are in the business of denying care to patients while they collect fees, so that they can maximize their profits. Nobody in the U.S. government, including Obama, plans to do anything about getting us universal health care. It's not going to happen without a huge push from the people, and even with over 1 million jobs lost in January and February alone (meaning loss of health insurance for many of those workers), I do not see the public making moves to voice their concerns. At least not yet.

[leggy leftist]

You have a point, Leggy Leftist. Oftentimes people do become obese due to their lifestyle, but there are also people who being "overweight" is just naturally in their genes. JUst like how it's natural for some people to be really skinny.

Right. I'm not in favor of exclusionary practices based on lifestyle, genetics, or environmental factors. Because then who decides? How about the smokers? Should they be denied health care because statistically they have a higher likelihood of using more services? Diabetics also use more health care services. Should we exclude them? What about someone born with a genetic anomaly that requires ongoing health care services?

Again, the key is education about risk factors but access to all kinds of services FOR EVERYBODY.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Right. I'm not in favor of exclusionary practices based on lifestyle, genetics, or environmental factors. Because then who decides? How about the smokers? Should they be denied health care because statistically they have a higher likelihood of using more services? Diabetics also use more health care services. Should we exclude them? What about someone born with a genetic anomaly that requires ongoing health care services?


Yea, exactly. Everybody should have equal access to healthcare. Some people make bad decisions. It doesn't mean they should have to suffer for it.

[STJ]

Alot of idiot Republicans try to say Obama is Socialist. It's ridiculous. Obviously they have no idea what Socialism really is.
No way the right has no clue??:confused:

[Brother No. 1]

Republicans think Democrats are Socialists for they "change" the goverment.

[STJ]

Right. I'm not in favor of exclusionary practices based on lifestyle, genetics, or environmental factors. Because then who decides? How about the smokers? Should they be denied health care because statistically they have a higher likelihood of using more services? Diabetics also use more health care services. Should we exclude them? What about someone born with a genetic anomaly that requires ongoing health care services?

Again, the key is education about risk factors but access to all kinds of services FOR EVERYBODY.
I am for makeing everyone aware of the health risks but the choice should be left up to the person.

[STJ]

Republicans think Democrats are Socialists for they "change" the goverment.
Which is total shit.

[Brother No. 1]

I say this all the time. "Its America land of the idiots and Capitalist dictators."

[STJ]

Yes it is.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I am for makeing everyone aware of the health risks but the choice should be left up to the person.

Awareness is important, true, but I think that it's in the best intersts of society to at least:

1. Make healthy choices as accessible as possible, and possibly make less healthy choices tougher to find (i.e. provide milk at schools instead of vending machines full of pop).

2. Prevent one person's health risk from becoming a health risk for other people (i.e. second-hand smoke). In Canada, we've had a strong push for laws to ban smoking in cars with young children in them (and with windows rolled up).

[STJ]

I am one those free chiocers.

[Invincible Summer]

Awareness is important, true, but I think that it's in the best intersts of society to at least:

1. Make healthy choices as accessible as possible, and possibly make less healthy choices tougher to find (i.e. provide milk at schools instead of vending machines full of pop).

2. Prevent one person's health risk from becoming a health risk for other people (i.e. second-hand smoke). In Canada, we've had a strong push for laws to ban smoking in cars with young children in them (and with windows rolled up).

The problem with #1 is that crops for "healthy choices" are not as subsidized by the government, and private companies don't try to sell "healthy" things without branding them as the latest yuppie thing and charge 50x more for it.

Here's a page I like to show people that talks briefly about why crappy foods are cheaper to buy and thus is affecting our health: http://agonist.org/ian_welsh/20071101/why_eating_healthy_costs_more_than_eating_unhealth ily



Also, i agree with some of the previous statements - there needs to be Universal health care as well as universal preventative care. There's no use having a system that caters to only those who are already afflicted with illness when we can prevent them from getting sick in the first place.

[Bitter Ashes]

Awareness is important, true, but I think that it's in the best intersts of society to at least:

1. Make healthy choices as accessible as possible, and possibly make less healthy choices tougher to find (i.e. provide milk at schools instead of vending machines full of pop).

2. Prevent one person's health risk from becoming a health risk for other people (i.e. second-hand smoke). In Canada, we've had a strong push for laws to ban smoking in cars with young children in them (and with windows rolled up).
Firstly, every member of society is not resposible for the actions of one individual. Meddling and micro-management of people's habits and preferances should be avoided.
Secondly, second hand smoke is a myth. All the research that points towards it bieng harmful comes from pharmetcutical companies who have just as much reason to be biased with thier results as the tobacco companies. Independant research points towards it bieng harmless as sidestream smoke is so little and all the toxins in the second hand smoke bieng filtered out by the smoker.
The spin on the figures is quite ammusing too. You will be told that bieng in close proximity to a smoker at work doubles your lung cancer chances and that actualy seems to be true. It rises the chances from 0.00015% to 0.00030% of you getting lung cancer as a non-smoker. This only applies too if you're working somewhere like a smokey pub, filled with dozens of smokers, for 40 hours a week, with no ventalation, for your entire working life. All of us recieve more damage to our lungs from air pollution, and background radiation, even in rural areas.
Never trust the bourgeois to tell you anything that they wont make extra profit from.

[STJ]

You can tell people a 1000 times product A is bad for you and they still will buy product A. And do you know why? They like product A and can careless what you, the government or anyone else thinks about it. Like my love of McDonald's french fries i know there bad for me but i dont care i love them anyway. I am totally against goverment intervention into my personal life or getting rid of product A because it is bad for you.

[Brother No. 1]

Blame the old riviarly between these 2 idiotic parties.

[Killfacer]

Every country needs a national health service. Anything else is frankly a criminal abuse of those who cannot afford full health insurance.

[STJ]

Every country needs a national health service. Anything else is frankly a criminal abuse of those who cannot afford full health insurance.
Exactly comrade the only people who can afford health insurance here are rich people everyone else gets screwed. We need NHC here to fix all the problems.

[STJ]

[QUOTE=Polish Soviet;1405694]Blame the old riviarly between these 2 idiotic parties.[/QUOTE

Yes we can.

[Brother No. 1]

They dont care for the people all they care about is. Who is in charge as the "President." Really only 2 parties to chose from is a stupid Idea. I hate both so why would I even chose. Both are filled with morons and power hungry leaders. When one wins we all lose.

[LOLseph Stalin]

They dont care for the people all they care about is. Who is in charge as the "President." Really only 2 parties to chose from is a stupid Idea. I hate both so why would I even chose. Both are filled with morons and power hungry leaders. When one wins we all lose.

To be honest, Canada isn't really much better. We actually have four or five main parties(depending on if you include the Bloc Quebecois), but really only two ever get into power: the Liberals or the Conservatives. So basically our choices are right-wing(Conservative), moderate center-right(Liberal), center-left(NDP), environmentalist(Green), or if you're in Quebec, seperatist(Bloc Quebecois). I don't see the left or the workers for that matter represented at all.

[Brother No. 1]

The Capitalists would never allow them to respresent them selfs for the dont want another Bolshevik Revoltuion. They are afraid of another Communist uprising and they try to make the people think were they enemies. But when you finally open the mid of the middle class and mostly all the people they will see the true enemy of the people the the TRUE enemy of the World. Capitalism,Fscism,Nazism,monarchy, Imperialism, and Fuedalism.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

I think the problem with America that way, Polish, is that everyone sees themselves as middle class. People who make $20k see themselves as middle class and feel they can freely move upwards.

In a way, I kind of like that there's so little class consciousness, but it does stop a lot of action.

[Brother No. 1]

really $20k = middle class....thats really absurd.

[Kassad]

The healthcare issue really isn't as complicated as most people would like to make it seem. Like all information portrayed in the corporate media by bureaucratic capitalist idealogues, anything you hear about other countries, foreign affairs and generally everything domestic should be taken as false. That doesn't mean that it necessarily is false, but merely the fact that you cannot expect to get a goddamn grain of truthful information from the corporate media. For some reason, even intelligent people I describe this to do not seem to comprehend it. The corporations that control the mainstream media in the United States are known for some of their oppressive schemes and tactics that place workers rights and generally human rights in the backseat. They are some of the the most brutal corporate entities this world has ever seen. And they control what our children, our parents, our friends and our families hear as fact every day. No wonder everyone in this country's mind has been totally fried and all they give a fuck about is which sports team won a title. Those who oppose socialized healthcare are always capitalists and the vast majority of them are conservatives, laissez-faire capitalists and other forms of, well, fascists.

So in general, why would you listen to what conservative, or for that matter, liberal newscasters tell you about healthcare? You'll never hear someone on CNN tell you about how innovative Cuba's healthcare system is; with everyone receiving proper care, medicine being totally affordable to everyone and infant mortality rates consistently plummeting, especially when in comparison to that of the United States. It's almost laughable to watch people defend a broken healthcare system that spends more money per capita than nations that have single-payer healthcare, all the while, criticizing "authoritarian" practices in Cuba that provide proper healthcare to every citizen it houses. In truth, the private interests in this country are shitting in their silk sheets thinking about all the money they will lose if the American people ever realize what kind of system they are letting pass by. When a nation that is in poverty in comparison to the United States is still providing healthcare, education, food and housing to every one of its citizens, it makes the United States look nothing short of outlandish and desolate. And that's what it is.

But back to the point, why should you listen to anything these entities tell you, especially about healthcare? In general, like all commodites produced under capitalism, if you put a price tag on it, the quality will be manipulated, as when the product is being produced and maintained, those who are making money off of it will cut corners at every conceivable opportunity so that they can make more profit. I mean, a child should be able to understand this. Healthcare is no different. Under the private healthcare system, in which I have a multitude of family members working in, doctors and most notably surgeons make money based on the number of patients they inspect, as well as medicine or surgeries they distribute. So tell me this: when you go into your doctor's office and he tells you you need a new liver, how the hell are you supposed to know if you truly need a new liver, or if he's just trying to pay his mortgage? It honestly sends chills down my spine whenever I enter a medical establishment.

In truth, that's capitalism. You can never be too sure about what you're receiving. Under capitalism, profit is the motive, but alone with that, those who are selling and distributing commodities and services have to lie through their teeth to sell a product. No salesman is ever going to tell you that the shoes you can buy next door are much better quality than yours. That's bad for business.

Nationalization of anything under capitalism, especially under the imperialist-hegemony of nations like the United States in the world, is not anything to be excited about, but in truth, a progressive step towards socialism is preferable to the privately-owned entities that manipulate basic necessities like education, healthcare and housing in this country. It's disgusting. Socialist parties and organizations should all strive for basic necessities for all people. In truth, these necessities will never be totally met under capitalism, but capitalism by definition leaves people at the bottom while other people prosper. It's the core foundation of capitalism and the enterprise system.

Regardless, all socialists should realize that reforms only go so far in bandaging a broken system and corporate parties, politicians and governments cannot be trusted to truly continue on a progressive path, especially when corporate entities are the prime contributors to their campaigns and reform schemes. Capitalism is a vile disease that plagues the people forced to live in shackles under it and the millions in the United States forced to live without healthcare and medical services serves as only one example of the destructive nature of this tyrannical system.

[STJ]

really $20k = middle class....thats really absurd.
Yes it is.

[STJ]

To be honest, Canada isn't really much better. We actually have four or five main parties(depending on if you include the Bloc Quebecois), but really only two ever get into power: the Liberals or the Conservatives. So basically our choices are right-wing(Conservative), moderate center-right(Liberal), center-left(NDP), environmentalist(Green), or if you're in Quebec, seperatist(Bloc Quebecois). I don't see the left or the workers for that matter represented at all.
So its just as bad as it is here.

[Invincible Summer]

Although to be fair, our Conservative party seems more "Center" compared to the American Republicans; our Liberals are "center-left" of the Democrats; NDP are probably seen as a radical Communist party by Americans :rolleyes:

[STJ]

The Repucblican party calls the Democrates Communist all the time trying to fear monger votes.

[STJ]

I think the problem with America that way, Polish, is that everyone sees themselves as middle class. People who make $20k see themselves as middle class and feel they can freely move upwards.

In a way, I kind of like that there's so little class consciousness, but it does stop a lot of action.
To true comrade.

[LOLseph Stalin]

NDP are probably seen as a radical Communist party by Americans http://www.revleft.com/vb/does-america-need-p1406563/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif

I really wouldn't doubt that. Oh no! The NDP are evil Reds! :scared:

Well technically they could be. There are Marxists inside the NDP, IMT entryists.

[RedAnarchist]

The jesus conversation has been split off and made into a new thread - http://www.revleft.com/vb/jesus-conversation-split-t105975/index.html?t=105975

[STJ]

I head that the NHS was quite good. Though France is supposed to have the best.
Do you know how the French healthcare system works?

[pastradamus]

Every Country Needs Nationalised Healthcare. Its the Single Most Important Ministry of Socialism.

[rakasha]

From the perspective of someone who relies on it, the NHS does seem better than the american system. That's not to say it isn't flawed, though; it suffers from a lot of the same problems that the economy of the late USSR. There's a huge (huge!) reliance on government "targets" and central planning, so ultimately the healthcare workers get little to no say in things. Needless to say, this really hurts efficiency.

Nationalised healthcare is definitely the way to go, though. Baby steps, baby steps...

(Wahoo, first post!)

[Angry Young Man]

Free healthcare poses a problem, as many people could choke up the hospitals with menial unimportant things like a possibly infected cut or scratch or some other needless paranoia. I beleive that instead, there should be a universal flat charge for anything medical related. If you want a heart transplant it would cost the same as having a doctor hand you a bandade. There would be exceptions of course, such as those who need to have multiple visits to the doctor or are chronicly ill. Those would receive free visits of course, as their condition would require it and the constant visiting would cost quite a bit over time.

Anybody agree with that idea?

Free healthcare under capitalism is a problem due to the hospitals being choked up because politicians with capitalist interests are unwilling to spend high amounts on a public service. The worst period for NHS spending, if I'm right, was the Thatcher-Major years (1979-1997). Now, we as socialists do not have the interests of capitalism, so there should be no tension as to funding a highly expensive public service.

[STJ]

Every Country Needs Nationalised Healthcare. Its the Single Most Important Ministry of Socialism.
Thats what i think as well.

[STJ]

From the perspective of someone who relies on it, the NHS does seem better than the american system. That's not to say it isn't flawed, though; it suffers from a lot of the same problems that the economy of the late USSR. There's a huge (huge!) reliance on government "targets" and central planning, so ultimately the healthcare workers get little to no say in things. Needless to say, this really hurts efficiency.

Nationalised healthcare is definitely the way to go, though. Baby steps, baby steps...

(Wahoo, first post!)

Sounds far better than what we have here in America which is only the rich get insurance.

[Rusty Shackleford]

i say yes for sure! i have not seen a doctor/dentist/optometrist in nearly 2 years because it costs so fucking much!

[STJ]

I have the same problem i haven't been to the dentist in years cuz of the insane cost.

[Communist Theory]

My reservation has its own clinic and the government pays for my medical bill!
:lol:

[STJ]

They should pay everyones bill.

[Dóchas]

isnt private healthcare in cuba forbidden? they dont seem to be doing too badly from it. also cuban doctors are one of the most sought in the world because they are so well trained in their fields of study

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4583668.stm

[LOLseph Stalin]

isnt private healthcare in cuba forbidden? they dont seem to be doing too badly from it. also cuban doctors are one of the most sought in the world because they are so well trained in their fields of study

And people say Socialism doesn't work. :rolleyes:

[Dóchas]

And people say Socialism doesn't work. :rolleyes:

ye tell me about it!! this is one of the best examples of how well socialism works and i use it all the time in debates regarding it...works every time ;)

[LOLseph Stalin]

ye tell me about it!! this is one of the best examples of how well socialism works and i use it all the time in debates regarding it...works every time http://www.revleft.com/vb/does-america-need-t105548/revleft/smilies/wink.gif

I use Cuba in debates too.

[STJ]

isnt private healthcare in cuba forbidden? they dont seem to be doing too badly from it. also cuban doctors are one of the most sought in the world because they are so well trained in their fields of study

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4583668.stm
Yes it is and its far better than here.

[kbjami]

Dude I'm sorry to hear about your mother and well the health care system we have is a piece of shit. I'm a big believer in socialized health care. That's the main thing for me when it comes to politics. I even tried sending letters to my Senator, but he didn't really listen, but I'm not going to give up on this though. If i where you I would send a letter to your senator and try to get everyone you know to join you. i tried doing that, but i live in a VERY conservative county so pretty much no one joined me, but maybe you can get some people to help you.

[scarletghoul]

America needs nationalised everything!

[STJ]

Dude I'm sorry to hear about your mother and well the health care system we have is a piece of shit. I'm a big believer in socialized health care. That's the main thing for me when it comes to politics. I even tried sending letters to my Senator, but he didn't really listen, but I'm not going to give up on this though. If i where you I would send a letter to your senator and try to get everyone you know to join you. i tried doing that, but i live in a VERY conservative county so pretty much no one joined me, but maybe you can get some people to help you.
Thanks for that comrade. This countrys Healthcare system is a mess.

[STJ]

America needs nationalised everything!
Yes we do.