G20 protester dies from injuries

[communard resolution]

It's quite shocking.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090401/tuk-protester-dies-after-g20-violence-dba1618.html

They also imply that police have been heavily montoring people online prior to the protests. Watch your backs, folks.

EDIT: They actually just say a man "collapsed and died" without mentioning why.

[Pogue]

It wasn't suprising someone died, given the brutality we saw. At points I was terrified for the safety of myself and others because the police charged full on at us and people were falling over and getting clubbed on the head. It was shocking, and this death is shocking and appalling and hilights the callous and sadistic nature of the police in 'dealing with' our protests. I saw other people with bleeding from wounds to the head and at one point was almost certain I was going to get hit myself, despite the fact I ensured throughout I did nothing illegal, dedicating my attentions to trying to make some noise and help my comrades in light of police brutality and being penned in inhumanely.

[Enragé]

i was just about to post this.

Is there any news on the exact circumstances of his death? And is there going to be a demo tomorrow in commemoration/against police brutality?

in any case, i hope he rests in peace, and his death will not have been in vain

[Pogue]

And indeed we should be careful what we talk about. No mention of any organising on here, and especially not talk of violence. Also, a note to people involved in this sort of protesting.

Simply don't do anything illegal if its risky or unnecesary.

By all means defend yourself, don't get shoved around and help others, and make your point, but throwing a plastic bottle can get you arrested easily and does not acheive anything. Focus your attentions on defence and getting the view across, its more worthwhile and less dangerous.

[Pogue]

i was just about to post this.

Is there any news on the exact circumstances of his death? And is there going to be a demo tomorrow in commemoration/against police brutality?

I'm sure someone will respond to it at some point, but tommorow theres going to be further anti G20 protests.

[communard resolution]

Oops, I was so shocked at the headline, I read the news item too quickly and mixed things up. They actually just say someone "collapsed and died" (whatever that means) without stating the reason why - it was a cop who was injured.

[communard resolution]

Simply don't do anything illegal if its risky or unnecesary.



Yes, be extra careful what you post on the internet. The news piece implies they're monitoring heavily.

[Enragé]

Oops, I was so shocked at the headline, I read the news item too quickly and mixed things up. They actually just say someone "collapsed and died" (whatever that means) without stating the reason why - it was a cop who was injured.

i did read it and "collapsed and died" is probably the police's explanation. Work's great doesnt it? "We didnt do anything! All of a sudden, he just collapsed and died!".

This sort of reminds me of a protest in the 80's (or was it 70's?) over here by dock workers. The police blocked the road, shit hit the fan, and someone got a heart attack and died. Now, this was not directly because of police brutality, but if shit hadnt hit the fan the guy wouldnt have had a heart attack.

So, even if he did just 'collapse and die' it's still the pigs' fault.

[communard resolution]

i did read it and "collapsed and died" is probably the police's explanation. Work's great doesnt it? "We didnt do anything! All of a sudden, he just collapsed and died!

Sure. I didn't see him "collapse and die", so I don't know what exactly happened. But it does sound similar to lines such as "the police officer's gun went off" (e.g. Benno Ohnesorg's death in Berlin 1968)

[baneofyourlife]

A brutal day. I agree and sympathise with both of H-L-V-S's posts. Apparantly the police even attacked the climate camp at one point?

[Sasha]

over here it was an long tradition that people whould "suddenly" faint during police interigation and always "by accident" hit their head on the tip of table.

wheter it was an heart attack or blunt force trauma, chances are almost the same it was a direct consequence of police violence.

and it is always horrible if people get suriously injured or die and bad and etc etc but these kind of remarks:

Simply don't do anything illegal if its risky or unnecesary.
are plainly stupid.

i know most british are not used to large scale police violence but as far as i saw on the news and the independend media/activist reports this was actualy an quite avarge day of disturbance (i wouldn't even go so far too call it full blown riots).
shit like this happens and the last thing people should do is be discouraged to do "illegal" & "risky" actions.
hell, even "unnecesary" shit are an given on these kind of days and have their place in the dynamics of a good riot.

the revolution will be neither safe nor pretty...

[RedAnarchist]

It's quite shocking.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/4/20090401/tuk-protester-dies-after-g20-violence-dba1618.html

They also imply that police have been heavily montoring people online prior to the protests. Watch your backs, folks.

EDIT: They actually just say a man "collapsed and died" without mentioning why.

A sad event and I hope he isn't forgotten tomorrow when the protestors go back onto the streets of London. Watching the news earlier, I saw a few people with bloodied heads - I wonder if he was one of them, someone attacked by some uncaring cop who sadistically likes whacking people?

[pastradamus]

The fascist Arm of the state kills a comrade in the interests of protecting private corporate Interests and property. Typical dirty behavior from these pigs. On another note I would like to say well done to all those who attended. Let these callous bastards know we're here and we wont put up with their crap.

[YSR]

This is really distressing to see. In the protests against the Republicans in St. Paul in September we saw a lot of police brutality and I can't imagine what it would be like if we'd lost some one. My heart goes out to the anti-capitalists in Britain.

I also don't want to diminish the tremendous violence against non-First World revolutionaries that happens all the time by saying this. It's just that this violence goes under-reported and its hard to keep up with. State brutality everywhere is reprehensible and tragic, although of course not unexpected.

[BobKKKindle$]

RIP, the struggle carries on. It's terrible that a comrade has been murdered, but a further negative impact of events like this is to encourage less committed and experienced people who might otherwise have been willing to come out on the streets and protest to stay at home. I hope that the people who still get involved don't reduce the militancy of their actions - it was great to see protesters occupy the Bank of England today, and if the protests tomorrow are as big as people think they are going to be we should be seeing many more such actions, directed against the symbols of the bourgeoisie. I was watching the coverage of the protests last night (not being in the UK at the moment) and the bias of the media against the protestors is incredible - the police are always described as responding to provocations and trying to make sure that people don't get hurt.

[communard resolution]

the police are always described as responding to provocations and trying to make sure that people don't get hurt.

Yes, and as for the much-criticised militancy, the mainstream media are playing down the anger of non-militant protesters: One newssite, for instance, writes that


An angry mob trashed equipment, daubed graffiti on the walls and threw a chair through a window after more than 4,000 demonstrators, most of them peaceful, gathered near the Bank of England to demand action from world leaders.Is this really what the protesters want? "Dear Barack Obama, dear Gordon Brown - please do something about the crisis"?

If there's no other way to show who we are angry at...

[Wanted Man]

Horrible. :(

Media suck. A news site here has the usual "neutral" line of "rioters had scuffles with the police" and "the police fear more clashes with demonstrators and rioters"... The role of the media is summarised well in this picture:

http://indymedia.nl/img/2009/04/58621.jpg

As for what to do: do everything possible to make sure that other people don't get scared into submission by this (usually the purpose of all-out police brutality: physically weaken opposition) and work on ways to defend oneself. At least, that's what I'd say, but it's never going to be easy.

[Weezer]

I never have seen so much revolutionary people in one place in these times. Let's hope these protests lead to Revolution.

[Orwell Lives]

Why do we need to be violent though? Surely a protest is just that: a vocal opposition. We don't need to fight, to destroy and to wreck. All it does is get you arrested or beaten up. Defend yourselves most certainly, but don't go out of your way to attack.

[Trystan]

Orwell, most people aren't violent. Even Sky News said the vast majority were peaceful.

[Devrim]

Media suck. A news site here has the usual "neutral" line of "rioters had scuffles with the police" and "the police fear more clashes with demonstrators and rioters"... The role of the media is summarised well in this picture:

I just watched the news on BBC World, and it talked about 'buildings being victims of attacks'. How can a building be a 'victim'?

Devrim

[Dóchas]

shit!! that is really fucked up. funnily enough it hasnt been on any of the radio or television news. May our comrade RIP.

this sounds strangely familier except the last time it was a kid with a bullet in his head. i hope this is the flashpoint we have all been waiting for and the demos today are a lot bigger and a lot more angry

[bcbm]

I can't imagine what it would be like if we'd lost some one.

I can...

[Diagoras]

I just watched the news on BBC World, and it talked about 'buildings being victims of attacks'. How can a building be a 'victim'?

Devrim

"Corporate Personhood" and all that jazz :rolleyes:. A smashed window is proprietary victimhood resulting in middle-class gasps of horror, but the systematic privatization and looting of third world assets and public resources by corporate predators is nothing worth fretting over.

[Mike Morin]

It wasn't suprising someone died, given the brutality we saw. At points I was terrified for the safety of myself and others because the police charged full on at us and people were falling over and getting clubbed on the head. It was shocking, and this death is shocking and appalling and hilights the callous and sadistic nature of the police in 'dealing with' our protests. I saw other people with bleeding from wounds to the head and at one point was almost certain I was going to get hit myself, despite the fact I ensured throughout I did nothing illegal, dedicating my attentions to trying to make some noise and help my comrades in light of police brutality and being penned in inhumanely.

Did anybuddy get any "footage" of the violence?


MM

[The Deepest Red]

Rioting like this will achieve nothing. I know it can be difficult to show restraint in the face of police aggression but those involved in such protests should ask themselves what are they trying to achieve.

[brigadista]

Why do we need to be violent though? Surely a protest is just that: a vocal opposition. We don't need to fight, to destroy and to wreck. All it does is get you arrested or beaten up. Defend yourselves most certainly, but don't go out of your way to attack.

and make sure you have the telephone number of an organisation providing legal help in case you get arrested

[Zurdito]

So we are expected to believe that he simply died of natural causes, and that this had nothing to do with being hemmed into a pen for hours with no food drink or toilet facility, and being repeatedly baton charged by police who hit people hard round the head and chest, both of which can kill people?

[brigadista]

So we are expected to believe that he simply died of natural causes, and that this had nothing to do with being hemmed into a pen for hours with no food drink or toilet facility, and being repeatedly baton charged by police who hit people hard round the head and chest, both of which can kill people?


this is a complete tragedy but are you really surprised at the policing strategy? they were protecting the monuments and instututions of capitalism- what did you expect?

[Zurdito]

this is a complete tragedy but are you really surprised at the policing strategy? they were protecting the monuments and instututions of capitalism- what did you expect?

Who said I was surprised?

[Pogue]

Did anybuddy get any "footage" of the violence?


MM

I'm sure theres footage up somewhere but I don't know anything about anyone who took any. I'm assuming your talking about the police violence right? Most people were busy running away or helping comrades to do much.

[Zurdito]

There is lots of footage on youtube or even on the guardian website.

[Mike Morin]

Anyway to network to get reports out about the violence? To find out if anybuddy does have footage?

The self-righteous Liberals in the USA, were distributing a police brutality film about Tibet. The government of China answered that it was a staged event.

This is no movie, this reel is real?

Not calling you a liar, H-L-V-S.

The footage they showed on Capitalist media showed a huge peaceful crowd, with a thin yellow-coated line of "Security" who would have been dead ducks, if the assemby turned violent.


MM

[Communist Theory]

That sucks.:(

[Zurdito]

indymedia UK

Witnesses Statement: Death at G20

http://london.indymedia.org.uk/images/icon_article.gif?1235950676 Published: Thursday 02 April 2009 21:10 by Imc London
Tagged as: g20 (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/search/by_tag/g20) tomlinson (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/search/by_tag/tomlinson) witnesses (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/search/by_tag/witnesses)
Neighbourhoods: bank (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/search/by_place_tag/bank) city_of_london (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/search/by_place_tag/city_of_london) cornhill (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/search/by_place_tag/cornhill)

PRESS RELEASE

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE

Various participants in the City of London demonstrations on April 1st have come forward as witnesses to the collapse of a man later identified by authorities as Ian Tomlinson. Four different university students witnessed the collapse of Mr. Tomlinson. "He stumbled towards us from the direction of police and protestors and collapsed," said Peter Apps. "I saw a demonstrator who was a first aider attend to the person who had collapsed. The man was late 40s, had tattoos on his hands, and was wearing a Millwall shirt."

While the first aider was helping the man, another demonstrator with a megaphone was calling the police over so that they could help.

Natalie Langford, a student at Queen Mary, said "there was a police charge. A lot of people ran in our direction. The woman giving first aid stood in the path of the crowd." The running people, seeing a guy on the ground, went around them.

Another demonstrator had already called 999 and was getting medical advice from the ambulance dispatcher. "Four police with two police medics came. They told her [the first aider] to 'move along'.", said Peter Apps. "Then they pushed her forcibly away from him. They refused to listen to her [the first aider] when she tried to explain his condition."

The first aider, who did not wish to be named, said "The police surrounded the collapsed man. I was standing with the person who'd called 999. The ambulance dispatcher wanted to talk to the police, the phone was being held out to them, but the police refused."

Another witness, Elias Stoakes, added "we didn't see them [the police] perform CPR."

Other people who had tried to stay with the collapsed man were also pushed away.

All of the witnesses deny the allegation that many missiles were thrown.

According to Peter Apps, "one bottle was thrown, but it didn't come close to the police. Nothing was thrown afterwards as other demonstrators told the person to stop. The person who threw the bottle probably didn't realize that someone was behind the ring of police." All the witnesses said that the demonstrators were concerned for the well-being of the collapsed man once they realized that there was an injured person.

Natalie Langford said "when the ambulance arrived the protestors got straight out of the way."

These witnesses are happy to give media statements.

They can be contacted through this press liasion email: [email protected]
See video (http://london.indymedia.org.uk/videos/1023) of two of the witnesses giving their statement.
Statement in German (http://de.indymedia.org/2009/04/246032.shtml)
http://london.indymedia.org.uk/images/email.png?1235950676 Contact email: [email protected]

[bcbm]

Rioting like this will achieve nothing. I know it can be difficult to show restraint in the face of police aggression but those involved in such protests should ask themselves what are they trying to achieve.

Giving the bastards a small taste of what is to come.

[Pogue]

Giving the bastards a small taste of what is to come.

Shwoing our anger and trying to lay the foundations of a mass movement againsty capitalism and the state is up there too.

[Mike Morin]

From the description above, and the pictures posted elsewhere on RevLeft, what happened in London on Financial Fools Day seemed a little bit like the Police Riots outside the "Democratic" Convention in Chicago in 1968.

That is, we're allowed to "peaceably assemble" and permitted certain safe places to protest. When the peaceful, yet angry, crowd asserts that it wants to confront the agents of their oppression, the police get violent.

If the crowd had violent intentions and responded to the police in a violent manner, those police would be dead ducks.


Mike Morin
www.peoplesequityunion.blogspot.com (http://www.peoplesequityunion.blogspot.com)

[Pogue]

From the description above, and the pictures posted elsewhere on RevLeft, what happened in London on Financial Fools Day seemed a little bit like the Police Riots outside the "Democratic" Convention in Chicago in 1968.

That is, we're allowed to "peaceably assemble" and permitted certain safe places to protest. When the peaceful, yet angry, crowd asserts that it wants to confront the agents of their oppression, the police get violent.

If the crowd had violent intentions and responded to the police in a violent manner, those police would be dead ducks.


Mike Morin
www.peoplesequityunion.blogspot.com (http://www.peoplesequityunion.blogspot.com)

I think there are some similtarities. I've read in books alot about that protest in Chicago and the similarities with what we experienced are there, i.e. the police create a problem where there isn't one, protestors get annoyed, police hit them, wounding and in our case killing someone, and then the police blame us for being 'violent' and 'trouble makers'. Its a general police tactic worldwide though.

[The Feral Underclass]

Why do we need to be violent though? Surely a protest is just that: a vocal opposition. We don't need to fight, to destroy and to wreck.

Why not?


All it does is get you arrested or beaten up. Defend yourselves most certainly, but don't go out of your way to attack.

That is actually mostly what was being done, but even if it wasn't confrontation with the state and the destruction of RBS property is a legitimate expressions of anger against capitalism and the state, both destructive and repressive. To make the argument that we should not resist, with violence if necessary, is essentially claiming that we cannot fight back and this attitude is reactionary as far as I'm concerned.

[The Feral Underclass]

I had managed to get out of the kettle and moved on elsewhere by the time this had happened but I was at the movement wide meeting yesterday to discuss what would be done as a consequence of this guys death. Five people who were there are the time of his death, including the third year medical student who attempted to resuscitate him.

As he collapsed and was being seen to by her and others the police charged at protesters, pushed her and others away refusing to assist and when an ambulance arrived hesitated to break the line in order to let it through.

The guy was not a protester and happened to get into the kettle by accident, but nevertheless the police are culpable in this man's death due to their negligence and violence.

[brigadista]

situation in chicago was completely different :)

[Pogue]

I had managed to get out of the kettle and moved on elsewhere by the time this had happened but I was at the movement wide meeting yesterday to discuss what would be done as a consequence of this guys death. Five people who were there are the time of his death, including the third year medical student who attempted to resuscitate him.

As he collapsed and was being seen to by her and others the police charged at protesters, pushed her and others away refusing to assist and when an ambulance arrived hesitated to break the line in order to let it through.

The guy was not a protester and happened to get into the kettle by accident, but nevertheless the police are culpable in this man's death due to their negligence and violence.

And here is the truth of the matter and its fucking good to see someone else like me who isn't just spewing the police account of things. It was good to know you got out OK mate.

[OneNamedNameLess]

It's ashame the media are not reporting anything positive about the demos in great detail. The atmoshere at climate camp was fantastic and beore RBS got smashed up there was some great stuff happening in that area.

I was pleased to see that a lot of people from overseas made the trip. I met a lot of Italians there. Thankfully I just left the squats before the police stormed in. I heard later that they were really brutal when they entered.

[Pogue]

It's ashame the media are not reporting anything positive about the demos in great detail. The atmoshere at climate camp was fantastic and beore RBS got smashed up there was some great stuff happening in that area.

I was pleased to see that a lot of people from overseas made the trip. I met a lot of Italians there. Thankfully I just left the squats before the police stormed in. I heard later that they were really brutal when they entered.

Four people smashed a window, leaving 3000 people who didn't. And after that incident, we were all peaceful. The demo on our behalf was good, but ruined by police murder, failings and brutality.

[OneNamedNameLess]

Four people smashed a window, leaving 3000 people who didn't. And after that incident, we were all peaceful. The demo on our behalf was good, but ruined by police murder, failings and brutality.

Yeah, what I meant was that after that the partying wasn't like it was before. The coppers were more alert. I was more up for it before I realised we were boxed in. There was more enthusiasm as the protest was fresher eg more people climbing buildings and chanting etc.

In general I had a great time. I am not surprised by the media's response. Some papers were sympathetic on the other hand such as the Guardian.

[Pogue]

Yeah, what I meant was that after that the partying wasn't like it was before. The coppers were more alert. I was more up for it before I realised we were boxed in. There was more enthusiasm as the protest was fresher eg more people climbing buildings and chanting etc.

In general I had a great time. I am not surprised by the media's response. Some papers were sympathetic on the other hand such as the Guardian.

Yeh the Guardian was the most sympathetic.

[communard resolution]

So was he actually caught up in a police kettle for several hours or was he not?

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/21/20090404/tuk-g20-death-man-suffered-heart-attack-6323e80.html

[teenagebricks]

Apparently he was on his way home from work so whether or not he was there for a significant amount of time is anyone's guess.

[Zurdito]

surprise surprise:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/g20-protest-ian-tomlinson

Police 'assaulted' bystander who died during G20 protests


Mark Townsend (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/marktownsend) and Paul Lewis (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/paullewis)
The Observer (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/), Sunday 5 April 2009
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/g20-protest-ian-tomlinson#history-byline)
The man who died during last week's G20 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/g20) protests was "assaulted" by riot police (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/police) shortly before he suffered a heart attack, according to witness statements received by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
Investigators are examining a series of corroborative accounts that allege Ian Tomlinson, 47, was a victim of police violence in the moments before he collapsed near the Bank of England in the City of London last Wednesday evening. Three witnesses have told the Observer that Mr Tomlinson was attacked violently as he made his way home from work at a nearby newsagents. One claims he was struck on the head with a baton.
Photographer Anna Branthwaite said: "I can remember seeing Ian Tomlinson. He was rushed from behind by a riot officer with a helmet and shield two or three minutes before he collapsed." Branthwaite, an experienced press photographer, has made a statement to the IPCC.
Another independent statement supports allegations of police violence. Amiri Howe, 24, recalled seeing Mr Tomlinson being hit "near the head" with a police baton. Howe took one of a sequence of photographs that show a clearly dazed Mr Tomlinson being helped by a bystander.
A female protester, who does not want to be named but has given her testimony to the IPCC, said she saw a man she later recognised as Tomlinson being pushed aggressively from behind by officers. "I saw a man violently propelled forward, as though he'd been flung by the arm, and fall forward on his head.
"He hit the top front area of his head on the pavement. I noticed his fall particularly because it struck me as a horrifically forceful push by a policeman and an especially hard fall; it made me wince."
Mr Tomlinson, a married man who lived alone in a bail hostel, was not taking part in the protests. Initially, his death was attributed by a police post mortem to natural causes. A City of London police statement said: "[He] suffered a sudden heart attack while on his way home from work."
But this version of events was challenged after witnesses recognised the dead man from photographs that were published on Friday.
An IPCC statement was due to be released the same day and is understood to have portrayed the death as a tragic accident. However, the statement's release was postponed as the complaints body received information that police officers may have been more involved in events than previously thought. An IPCC spokesman said yesterday that in light of new statements it was "assessing" the information it had received before deciding whether to launch a full investigation.
Part of the commission's inquiries will involve the examination of CCTV footage from the area.
Liberal Democrat MP David Howarth said: "Eventually there will have to be a full inquest with a jury. It is a possibility this death was at police hands."
A police source told the Observer that Mr Tomlinson appears to have become caught between police lines and protesters, with officers chasing back demonstrators during skirmishes. He was seen stumbling before he collapsed and died on Cornhill Street, opposite St Michael's Alley, around 7.25pm.
At around 7.10pm, protesters had gathered outside the police cordon to call for those contained inside - some for hours - to be let out. Officers with batons and shields attempted to clear them from the road.
Around 7.20pm, five riot police, and a line of officers with dogs, emerged from Royal Exchange Square, a pedestrian side street. Three images taken around this time show Mr Tomlinson on the pavement, in front of five riot police, and in apparent distress. He had one arm in the air, and appeared to be in discussion with the officers.
Mr Tomlinson then appears to have been lifted to his feet by a bystander. Minutes later he fell to the ground. "We saw this guy staggering around," said Natalie Langford, 21, a student. "He looked disorientated. About five seconds later he fell, and I grabbed my friends to help him."
Police have claimed that when paramedics tried to move Mr Tomlinson away for urgent treatment, bottles were thrown at them by protesters. He was later pronounced dead at hospital.
Branthwaite added: "He [Mr Tomlinson] was not a mouthy kid or causing problems, but the police seemed to have lost control and were trying to push protesters back. The police had started to filter people into a side street off Cornhill. There were a few stragglers who were just walking through between the police and protesters. Mr Tomlinson was one of those."
The police tactics during the G20 protests were condemned in the aftermath of the demonstrations. The clearance of a climate camp along Bishopsgate by riot police with batons and dogs after nightfall on Wednesday came in for particular criticism.
Protesters marched to Bethnal Green police station in east London yesterday to demand a public inquiry into Mr Tomlinson's death.

[bellyscratch]

Was just about to post that ^^^^

I agree that the Guardian seems to have been the most sympathetic to the protesters in all of this. They're not perfect but they have a few pretty good journalists

[nuisance]

Four people smashed a window, leaving 3000 people who didn't. And after that incident, we were all peaceful.
Mate, various stuff went down after the RBS windows went through. However it is right that the violence was created by police baton charges and kettling.

[Pogue]

Mate, various stuff went down after the RBS windows went through. However it is right that the violence was created by police baton charges and kettling.

Well I mean the RBS window was the only thing that went down that was relatively eventful (although I don't really see it as that bad an act except for the fact it stains the protest, I'm no liberal moral somg por window bu ti appreciate it did us harm), i'd say everything else was acceptable given the circumstances.

[Invader Zim]

This is a rather confused story. On the one hand, a post-mortem has declared that the man died of a heart attack. If by that the press mean he died of a Myocardial infarction or an arrest is anyones guess considering how typically misunderstood the term 'heart attack' is. But either way, it seems likely based on that he died of natural causes. However these witnesses make it sound as is he died of a head trauma resulting from police brutality, something along the lines of cerebral compression.

You would have thought the post-mortem would have certainly come to that conclusion if it had merit.

[nuisance]

Well I mean the RBS window was the only thing that went down that was relatively eventful (although I don't really see it as that bad an act except for the fact it stains the protest, I'm no liberal moral somg por window bu ti appreciate it did us harm), i'd say everything else was acceptable given the circumstances.
Alot more went down during the time the windows got smashed, including cops getting bottled, RBS set on fire and some people climbing into the building. There was much more that also went on that day, for example the local Tesco express getting looted and a decent run around busting police cordons with a 15 minute rampage to the Climate Camp.
Ideas like this are annoying. The media are not going to portray anarchists in a positive way. Also, in the mass media anarchism is associated moreso with vandalism than a alternative to capitalism (which their interests are deeply invested in), so therefore we should not fear the media misrepresenting our ideas, because it is a fact. The media is a tool of the capitalist class, no matter what went down at G20 we would have recieved a slating. We do not seek their approval.
But this is off-topic. What happened to Ian was a tragedgy which has stained the G20 events and then the rubbing of salt into the wound, with the cops destorying the memorial is disgusting.

[Pogue]

surprise surprise:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/g20-protest-ian-tomlinson

Police 'assaulted' bystander who died during G20 protests


Mark Townsend (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/marktownsend) and Paul Lewis (http://www.guardian.co.uk/profile/paullewis)
The Observer (http://observer.guardian.co.uk/), Sunday 5 April 2009
Article history (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/g20-protest-ian-tomlinson#history-byline)
The man who died during last week's G20 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/g20) protests was "assaulted" by riot police (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/police) shortly before he suffered a heart attack, according to witness statements received by the Independent Police Complaints Commission.
Investigators are examining a series of corroborative accounts that allege Ian Tomlinson, 47, was a victim of police violence in the moments before he collapsed near the Bank of England in the City of London last Wednesday evening. Three witnesses have told the Observer that Mr Tomlinson was attacked violently as he made his way home from work at a nearby newsagents. One claims he was struck on the head with a baton.
Photographer Anna Branthwaite said: "I can remember seeing Ian Tomlinson. He was rushed from behind by a riot officer with a helmet and shield two or three minutes before he collapsed." Branthwaite, an experienced press photographer, has made a statement to the IPCC.
Another independent statement supports allegations of police violence. Amiri Howe, 24, recalled seeing Mr Tomlinson being hit "near the head" with a police baton. Howe took one of a sequence of photographs that show a clearly dazed Mr Tomlinson being helped by a bystander.
A female protester, who does not want to be named but has given her testimony to the IPCC, said she saw a man she later recognised as Tomlinson being pushed aggressively from behind by officers. "I saw a man violently propelled forward, as though he'd been flung by the arm, and fall forward on his head.
"He hit the top front area of his head on the pavement. I noticed his fall particularly because it struck me as a horrifically forceful push by a policeman and an especially hard fall; it made me wince."
Mr Tomlinson, a married man who lived alone in a bail hostel, was not taking part in the protests. Initially, his death was attributed by a police post mortem to natural causes. A City of London police statement said: "[He] suffered a sudden heart attack while on his way home from work."
But this version of events was challenged after witnesses recognised the dead man from photographs that were published on Friday.
An IPCC statement was due to be released the same day and is understood to have portrayed the death as a tragic accident. However, the statement's release was postponed as the complaints body received information that police officers may have been more involved in events than previously thought. An IPCC spokesman said yesterday that in light of new statements it was "assessing" the information it had received before deciding whether to launch a full investigation.
Part of the commission's inquiries will involve the examination of CCTV footage from the area.
Liberal Democrat MP David Howarth said: "Eventually there will have to be a full inquest with a jury. It is a possibility this death was at police hands."
A police source told the Observer that Mr Tomlinson appears to have become caught between police lines and protesters, with officers chasing back demonstrators during skirmishes. He was seen stumbling before he collapsed and died on Cornhill Street, opposite St Michael's Alley, around 7.25pm.
At around 7.10pm, protesters had gathered outside the police cordon to call for those contained inside - some for hours - to be let out. Officers with batons and shields attempted to clear them from the road.
Around 7.20pm, five riot police, and a line of officers with dogs, emerged from Royal Exchange Square, a pedestrian side street. Three images taken around this time show Mr Tomlinson on the pavement, in front of five riot police, and in apparent distress. He had one arm in the air, and appeared to be in discussion with the officers.
Mr Tomlinson then appears to have been lifted to his feet by a bystander. Minutes later he fell to the ground. "We saw this guy staggering around," said Natalie Langford, 21, a student. "He looked disorientated. About five seconds later he fell, and I grabbed my friends to help him."
Police have claimed that when paramedics tried to move Mr Tomlinson away for urgent treatment, bottles were thrown at them by protesters. He was later pronounced dead at hospital.
Branthwaite added: "He [Mr Tomlinson] was not a mouthy kid or causing problems, but the police seemed to have lost control and were trying to push protesters back. The police had started to filter people into a side street off Cornhill. There were a few stragglers who were just walking through between the police and protesters. Mr Tomlinson was one of those."
The police tactics during the G20 protests were condemned in the aftermath of the demonstrations. The clearance of a climate camp along Bishopsgate by riot police with batons and dogs after nightfall on Wednesday came in for particular criticism.
Protesters marched to Bethnal Green police station in east London yesterday to demand a public inquiry into Mr Tomlinson's death.

I'm pleased this has finally got out.

[Pawn Power]

Police 'assaulted' bystander who died during G20 protests (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/g20-protest-ian-tomlinson)

[cyu]

From http://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/8a3z1/police_assaulted_bystander_who_died_during_g20/c08o40u

"When Jean Charles de Menezes was killed after the 7/7 bombings, a number of police statements were quickly released to the press: the man was middle-eastern looking, he was wearing a heavy padded coat (despite the hot summer weather), he was extremely nervous, he began running when approached by officers, he vaulted the turnstiles and ran down the escalator onto the train. Which of course made everyone side with the police. During the course of the inquiry, it turned out that every single one of these statements was false, making the whole thing look suspiciously like a spot of pre-emptive PR management by the police. The first thing we heard about Ian Tomlinson was that police who had come to the aid of a man having a heart attack were being pelted with bottles. Of course, everyone sided with the police. Given the witness statements from the article, it's now seems to me much more likely that those bottles were directed at the the riot officers who had been witnessed knocking the man to the ground. So once again the press has been misdirected."

[Zurdito]

This is a rather confused story. On the one hand, a post-mortem has declared that the man died of a heart attack. If by that the press mean he died of a Myocardial infarction or an arrest is anyones guess considering how typically misunderstood the term 'heart attack' is. But either way, it seems likely based on that he died of natural causes. However these witnesses make it sound as is he died of a head trauma resulting from police brutality, something along the lines of cerebral compression.

You would have thought the post-mortem would have certainly come to that conclusion if it had merit.

If he died of a heart attack moments after being attacked by the police, then the police are to blame. A post-mortem may not show that. Especially added to pressure by the authorities which may tip the balance in an ambigous case.

[Zurdito]

The Times:

2009


Police accused of hitting man who died during London G20 protest



Richard Ford, Home Correspondent


div#related-article-links p a, div#related-article-links p a:visited {color:#06c;}Police hit the man who died during the G20 summit protests with a baton after he had been thrown to the ground, according to a witness to the incident.
Another witness claims to have seen Ian Tomlinson being pushed from behind before falling and hitting his head on the ground.
Today investigators from the Independent Police Complaints Commission will examine press photographs and are expected to seek any other pictures of the collapse and sudden death of Mr Tomlinson near the Bank of England in the City of London on Wednesday night. A police post-mortem examination found that Mr Tomlinson, 47, who was not taking part in the protest, died of natural causes.
Anna Branthwaite, a photographer, gave a detailed statement to City of London Police yesterday in which she described how Mr Tomlinson was rushed from behind and hit with a police baton. She told The Times: “I saw a riot police officer rushing towards him from behind and grabbing hold of him from behind and charging with him. He [the officer] grabbed him by the scruff of the neck and used his own body to propel him forward.”
Related Links



G20 casualty was walking home from work (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article6023020.ece)


Police watchdog to investigate G20 death (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/G20/article6021880.ece)





She insisted that her evidence was solely related to the incident involving Mr Tomlinson and one particular riot police officer.
A statement by another witness. who did not wish to be named, says that Mr Tomlinson was pushed from behind and fell forward on his head.
The Metropolitan Police said that the matter was being dealt with by the complaints commission.
David Howarth, the Liberal Democrats’ justice spokesman, called for a full inquest with a jury.

[cyu]

From http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/05/g20-protest-ian-tomlinson

"He hit the top front area of his head on the pavement. I noticed his fall particularly because it struck me as a horrifically forceful push by a policeman and an especially hard fall; it made me wince."

[Invader Zim]

If he died of a heart attack moments after being attacked by the police, then the police are to blame. A post-mortem may not show that. Especially added to pressure by the authorities which may tip the balance in an ambigous case.

And how do you work that out? Are you a seasoned health care professional, with a massive degree of intuition that allows you to retrospectively diagnose a deceased individual without actually studying him?

A heart attack, or myocardial infarction, is not something I imagine the police could bring about soley as a result of brutality. A heart attack is typically the result of a blockage in a coronary artery which resricts blood supply to the heart muscle. Typically the blockage is caused by the build up of cholesterol in the artery, a symptom of unhealthy living over a susutained period of time. While an increase in stress, resulting in an increase in blood pressure, would be contributing factors in the short term, it strikes me as unlikely that they would be the chief causes of the heart attack. Eating unhealthily, working out too little, smoking and drinking too much would likely be the usual suspects.

Of course that does not mean this matter should not be investigated, police brutality should not be brushed beneath the carpet. However proclaiming that the police killed this man based on the information to hand is dubious indeed, the stories alone are conflicting and we don't know enough about this guys medical condition. I would be more interested in learning about how they reacted. In my experience British police have limited first-aid training and awareness.

[cyu]

...assuming he actually died of a heart attack...

Coroners are basically the coworkers of the riot police. People often are afraid to piss off their co-workers if it's going to jeopardize their future working relationships. It's easier to fudge medical exams and "protect one of your own" than to protect someone on the "other side" - I'm sure that's been done on much more than one occasion (regardless of whether it happened here or not).

[revolution inaction]

The guardian have released a video of the police assaulting him before he died.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

[Zurdito]

And how do you work that out? Are you a seasoned health care professional, with a massive degree of intuition that allows you to retrospectively diagnose a deceased individual without actually studying him?

A heart attack, or myocardial infarction, is not something I imagine the police could bring about soley as a result of brutality. A heart attack is typically the result of a blockage in a coronary artery which resricts blood supply to the heart muscle. Typically the blockage is caused by the build up of cholesterol in the artery, a symptom of unhealthy living over a susutained period of time. While an increase in stress, resulting in an increase in blood pressure, would be contributing factors in the short term, it strikes me as unlikely that they would be the chief causes of the heart attack. Eating unhealthily, working out too little, smoking and drinking too much would likely be the usual suspects.

Of course that does not mean this matter should not be investigated, police brutality should not be brushed beneath the carpet. However proclaiming that the police killed this man based on the information to hand is dubious indeed, the stories alone are conflicting and we don't know enough about this guys medical condition. I would be more interested in learning about how they reacted. In my experience British police have limited first-aid training and awareness.

yeah, I don't have time for a petty argument. just watch the video. Which side are you on, his or theirs? Honest question.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/07/video-g20-police-assault

[ls]

So what;'s the IPCC gonna do then?

Recommend a few police fucking resignations only for them to be rehired a few months later?

These policemen who did it need to exposed for their individual selves and sought after. Of course we can say it was thanks to an entire line of BTP-cum-riot pigs but the truth is, there is one scumbag personally responsible for attacking this man.

[Holden Caulfield]

the state kills one in Athens, the state kills one in London,

wonder where the bastards will strike next, fucking murdering pigs

[RebelDog]

The video is conclusive, this poor guy died as a result of police brutality. They are simply murdering state thugs.

[Invader Zim]

yeah, I don't have time for a petty argument.

You're confused Z, we aren't having an argument, petty or otherwise. I am telling (as opposed to debating with) you what a myocardial infarction is and what typically causes one; an unhealthy lifestyle. The stress of the encounter with the police may well have triggered the heart attack, but it is unlikely that is the cause of it (pushing people to the ground does not, for example, cause cholesterol to build up in coronary arteries).

While it is possible that the police actions are to blame for this, at the moment it is premature to make such a claim.


just watch the videoI've seen the video, minutes after it first appeared on the guardian webpage. It proves that the police did indeed commit an act of brutality against this man. It does not prove that being pushed to the ground killed him or was even a contributing factor.


Which side are you on, his or theirs? Honest question.Fucking stupid question, on so many levels. But especially following this: -

IZ: "police brutality should not be brushed beneath the carpet"

The police oficer who pushed the guy should lose his job, be prosecuted and find himself with his fellow thugs behind bars.

[Pogue]

You're confused Z, we aren't having an argument, petty or otherwise. I am telling (as opposed to debating with) you what a myocardial infarction is and what typically causes one; an unhealthy lifestyle. The stress of the encounter with the police may well have triggered the heart attack, but it is unlikely that is the cause of it (pushing people to the ground does not, for example, cause cholesterol to build up in coronary arteries).

While it is possible that the police actions are to blame for this, at the moment it is premature to make such a claim.

I've seen the video, minutes after it first appeared on the guardian webpage. It proves that the police did indeed commit an act of brutality against this man. It does not prove that being pushed to the ground killed him or was even a contributing factor.

Fucking stupid question, on so many levels. But especially following this: -

IZ: "police brutality should not be brushed beneath the carpet"

The police oficer who pushed the guy should lose his job, be prosecuted and find himself with his fellow thugs behind bars.

What, so you think him being batoned and pushed to the floor repeatedly, the stress from that, has nothing to do with him having a heart attack right afterwards?

Many old people have heart attacks when people break into their houses and harrass them. Theres been many cases of robberies where this has happened, and I have personal experience of it myself. Do you think that the shock and fear caused by the event isn't to blame? Its like saying that if you stress out a very fragile person and they have a heart attack or shock or whatever, your not to blame, but their 'old age' or 'unhealthy lifestye' is. Simple fact is, if they hadn't of done this, the guy wouldn't have had an heart attack, and so they killed him.

[Invader Zim]

What, so you think him being batoned and pushed to the floor repeatedly, the stress from that, has nothing to do with him having a heart attack right afterwards?


"The stress of the encounter with the police may well have triggered the heart attack"

Seems pretty clear acceptance of that possibility to me.



Do you think that the shock and fear caused by the event isn't to blame?I haven't decided. I'm saying, at this stage, we don't know; and those who have convicted the cop before knowing anything about the case are being irrational. For all you, or I, know he could have already been having a heart attack before the assault but only manifested symptoms later (a silent MI) or the heart attack could have had nothing to do with the assault; the fact of the matter is we know very little and correlation does not necessarily imply causation. In short you are blaming the cop for a guy's death without knowing the facts.

Either way, be the MI in part a result of the assault or not, this wouldn't be murder as people in this thread have claimed.

[Pogue]

"The stress of the encounter with the police may well have triggered the heart attack"

Seems pretty clear acceptance of that possibility to me.


I haven't decided. I'm saying, at this stage, we don't know; and those who have convicted the cop before knowing anything about the case are being irrational. For all you, or I, know he could have already been having a heart attack before the assault but only manifested symptoms later (a silent MI) or the heart attack could have had nothing to do with the assault; the fact of the matter is we know very little and correlation does not necessarily imply causation. In short you are blaming the cop for a guy's death without knowing the facts.

Either way, be the MI in part a result of the assault or not, this wouldn't be murder as people in this thread have claimed.

If they hit him and that caused a heart attack, they murdered him.

[Invader Zim]

If they hit him and that caused a heart attack, they murdered him.
A big 'if', and no, if the cop didn't intend to either kill or cause grevious bodily harm, the charge is unlikely to be murder. Realistically the most serious charge would be manslaughter.

[#FF0000]

Realistically the most serious charge would be manslaughter.

For potentially causing the heart-attack, or for not allowing people with medical training to help him?

This person is dead either way, regardless of what the people responsible for it could (read: won't) be charged with.

[Invader Zim]

For potentially causing the heart-attack, or for not allowing people with medical training to help him?

It is funny you should mention 'medical training'. The articles on this topic report that the guy was helped by a group of students, one of who purportedly had first aid training. Apparently they placed him into the recovery position, which is rather odd. You would have thought, if he was conscious (and none of the papers report that he wasn't immidtately after collapsing) they would have placed him into the heart attack position. But anyway, he was given some first aid care.

What is suspicious is what happened when they attempted to inform the police. The articles state that they approached the police but were pushed back by a police charge, who it seems were at a complete loss what to do. This doesn't supprise me in the least. My experience of medical emergencies and police has been nothing but poor. It seems to me that their first aid training is woefully inadequate, so it doesn't supprise me that they waited for an ambulance to arrive. Keeping the first aiders away, however, strikes me as criminally negligent, assuming they did.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

His family needs to have an independent autopsy performed to see if he did indeed die of a heart attack.

[cyu]

Initial reports of the incident stated that the man died of a heart attack and that protestors pelted police officers with bottles while the police tried to help him.

The question to ask here is, where do you think these "facts" came from? I highly doubt it would be the protestors who would claim this is what happened (unless they like making themselves look bad) - so clearly these reports came from the riot police themselves (or their PR departments).

Notice that the initial report "conveniently" left out the part where the riot police attacked the man. Why, you might ask, wasn't this part in the initial reports?

Now that we have video documentation of what happened, we clearly see there has been deception involved in putting out the initial report. If the riot police have already been proven deceptive about one part, then their entire story loses credibility - including the man's cause of death.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

The sick evil police. Who needs them? Who wants them?

[Pogue]

The sick evil police. Who needs them? Who wants them?

The capitalists! The liberals!

[Mowgli]

For all you, or I, know he could have already been having a heart attack before the assault but only manifested symptoms later (a silent MI) or the heart attack could have had nothing to do with the assault; the fact of the matter is we know very little and correlation does not necessarily imply causation. In short you are blaming the cop for a guy's death without knowing the facts.

Having a heart attack before the assault? The guy was standing arround with his hands in his pockets!

FUCKING BASTARDS!

[brigadista]

I received this today from the Justice for Jean Charles Menezes Campaign




JUSTICE4JEAN STATEMENT ON DEATH OF IAN TOMLINSON

The family of Jean Charles de Menezes and their Campaign wish to express their deep condolences to the family of Ian Tomlinson over his tragic death. Our thoughts are with them at this difficult time.

We have been following the emerging evidence relating to the police assault on Ian with grave sadness as we remember the early accounts of how Jean Charles’ death was reported. The Tomlinson family has a right to find out the truth behind what led to Ian’s death. We know from experience that their pain at this time is only being exacerbated by the misinformation and half truths that have been circulating.

We are concerned that the police appear to have misled the public about vital information regarding the circumstances of Ian’s death and find it deeply worrying that Ian’s death is not being independently investigated but rather; the City of London police force is investigating the Metropolitan police. How can an investigation claim to be independent if police officers are investigating themselves?

The notion that the Met has fully learned the lessons of the Menezes tragedy must be called into question in the way in which they have handled the aftermath of Ian Tomlinson’s death. The media also must shoulder some criticism for its continued unquestioning acceptance of police accounts of contentious deaths.

Justice4Jean continues to campaign to ensure that no family has to go through what the Menezes family endured. We have long called for an independent inquiry into the over arching issues raised by the shooting including the ability of the IPCC to deliver justice and how the police are able to repeatedly mislead the public over contentious deaths. The need for such an inquiry is clearly needed now more than ever and we hope the Tomlinson family get the truth and justice they deserve.

[RebelDog]

I haven't decided. I'm saying, at this stage, we don't know; and those who have convicted the cop before knowing anything about the case are being irrational. For all you, or I, know he could have already been having a heart attack before the assault but only manifested symptoms later (a silent MI) or the heart attack could have had nothing to do with the assault; the fact of the matter is we know very little and correlation does not necessarily imply causation. In short you are blaming the cop for a guy's death without knowing the facts.Are you a fucking Tory or something? Give us all a break and shut up before you make an even bigger fool of yourself. Go and write the Daily Mail.

[Zurdito]

I haven't decided. I'm saying, at this stage, we don't know; and those who have convicted the cop before knowing anything about the case are being irrational. For all you, or I, know he could have already been having a heart attack before the assault but only manifested symptoms later (a silent MI) or the heart attack could have had nothing to do with the assault; the fact of the matter is we know very little and correlation does not necessarily imply causation. In short you are blaming the cop for a guy's death without knowing the facts.


Firstly I want to note the comic value in the fact that you gave any worth at all to the police post-mortem given their past practices and the extreme coincedence it owuld be for someone to die of purely natural causes only meters from a police cordon on a violent protest, and second the even funnier fact that you still take the police post-mortem into account even after they have been shown to be lying every step of the way in this case like in so many others! Pretty unbelievable credulence from a "revolutionary leftist"

next, it is quite funny that you, IZ of revleft, are demanding higher standards of evidence than would be needed in court or, in many cases, than medical science itself can even provide!

"correlation doesn't imply causation": a nice abstract formula there which lets you off the hook from having to bore yourself with what actually happened in this case. but in fact even on an abstract level it's false, because correlation it does imply causation, it just doesn't prove it. In fact, in court this cop might be convicted for manslaughter based on circumstancial evidence, if the jury were convinced beyond reasonable doubt. Note the word "reasonable", which implies that some level of doubt can exist, which would not be the case if every post-mortem were 100% conclusive.

So int he light of that, it would be interesting for you to use your great medical expertise to explain exactly how a blow to the leg and being pushed to the ground could be proved to cause a heart attack minutes later. Though even if it did, you would probably start arguing that because we don't have a video between the time of the assualt and Tomlinson's death, that how do we know he didn't get hit on the leg and pushed over by someone else afterwards, and it was this, not the filmed assault, that caused his death - something of course, we couldn't prove one way or the other.

That's about the level of debate you are on right now IZ, sadly enough.

[RebelDog]

This terrible act of violence by a member of the British state's hired thugs must surely only have served to embolden those whom they hoped to preclude and discourage from resistance to their protection and welfare for the rich and their property. Let us hope that any positive that can be taken from the brutal demise of Ian Tomlinson is that the working-class can now easily disseminate between themselves, and the state and their thugs that exist to protect the rich and their property and interests, ie the police. RIP Ian Tomlinson, a victim of police brutality.

[Invader Zim]

Having a heart attack before the assault? The guy was standing arround with his hands in his pockets!



Indeed, it is called a silent myocardial infarction, and around a full quarter of heart attacks are silent. that means that the patient suffers no symptoms. They can indeed, be walking around with their hands in their pockets while their heart dies from a lack of oxygenated blood. Indeed, if my maths is correct around 190 people suffer from a silent heart attack each day in Britain. I'm not saying that thjis guy did, just that with the information to hand, which is scant, you simply don't know.


Firstly I want to note the comic value in the fact that you gave any worth at all to the police post-mortemThen what would you say he died from? Besides the Police post mortem, what information is there to go on? I offered an possible alternative suggestion, should the police post-mortem be erronious, based on the reports of head trauma back in my first post in this thread. If you wish to suggest that he didn't die of a heart attack, then that only works to further support my argument that currently we don't know enough to pass any worthwhile judgements, other than the fact that the cop who pushed him should be charged with assault as a minimum.



next, it is quite funny that you, IZ of revleft, are demanding higher standards of evidence than would be needed in court or, in many cases, than medical science itself can even provide!If you think that a court would convict an individual based on what we know from the press reports days after the event, you are even more naive that I had imagined.


"correlation doesn't imply causation": a nice abstract formula there which lets you off the hook from having to bore yourself with what actually happened in this case.That is a misquote, I stated that correlation does not necessarily imply causation. You obviously can't even reporduce my words without resorting to dishonesty; but we've been over this trend in your posts before.

As for what actually happened, all we know is that Ian Tomlinson was assaulted by a police officer, and then died some time after. It is conjecture on your part, with no actual evidence on your part, to proclaim that means that the cop certainly played a major part in this guys death.


but in fact even on an abstract level it's false, because correlation it does imply causation, it just doesn't prove it.Hense the use of the term 'necessarily', do at least try to keep up.


In fact, in court this cop might be convicted for manslaughter based on circumstancial evidence, if the jury were convinced beyond reasonable doubt.Is there an echo in here?

"Realistically the most serious charge would be manslaughter."

I also haven't proclaimed that the cops weren't a contributing factor in this guy's death, my argument has only been that at this stage we don't know enough.


Note the word "reasonable", which implies that some level of doubt can exist, which would not be the case if every post-mortem were 100% conclusive.Indeed, and at this stage based on the information reported by the press there is plenty of room for doubt, the point you seem incapable of grasping.


So int he light of that, it would be interesting for you to use your great medical expertiseI am by no means a medical expert, and have never once proclaimed to be. This is yet another example of your abjectly dishonest style of posting, attempting to paint me as a self proclaimed medical expert, which would be arrogant to the point of delusional. That said, what I am posting about heart attacks is true, and you can look it up.


how a blow to the leg and being pushed to the ground could be proved to cause a heart attack minutes later.Or better yet why not wait until all the facts are in before jumping to conclusions about a case of which we know little?


That's about the level of debate you are on right now IZ, sadly enough. On the contrary, that is the level of the debate you have constructed in your imagination and then assigned to me without any regard for my actual points.

[cyu]

Then what would you say he died from? Besides the Police post mortem, what information is there to go on? I offered an possible alternative suggestion, should the police post-mortem be erronious, based on the reports of head trauma back in my first post in this thread. If you wish to suggest that he didn't die of a heart attack, then that only works to further support my argument that currently we don't know enough to pass any worthwhile judgements, other than the fact that the cop who pushed him should be charged with assault as a minimum.

Exhibit A: Riot police put forth a false story about what happened to the man.

Exhibit B: Riot police have a vested interest in making themselves look good.

Exhibit C: People wouldn't put forth a false story unless they are trying to cover-up something seriously incriminating.

Conclusion: You're right - we don't know exactly how the man died, but the fact that there have been lies and a cover-up points to a series of criminal acts carried out by the riot police. The more they try to cover it up, the more criminal acts they are forced to engage in, and the deeper the hole they are digging for themselves. It's like Nixon and Watergate.

[cyu]

Excerpts from http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-ian-tomlinson-police

...fresh pictures suggested he had removed his shoulder number and covered his face with a balaclava before hitting Tomlinson with a baton and then pushing him to the ground on Cornhill, in the City of London, last Wednesday.

"There is already ... concern among some people in the community that the police are not being held to account for their actions," Paddick told the Guardian. "If that had been a member of the public caught on video doing that, they would have immediately been arrested.

Other developments saw:
• Several top-level crisis meetings inside Scotland Yard.
• The emergence of Channel 4 footage, taken from another angle, which clearly shows the officer hitting Tomlinson with his baton before pushing him to the ground.

The first postmortem on Tomlinson [claimed] he had died of a heart attack, but neither the police nor the IPCC would reveal whether any marks indicating an assault had been found on his body.

[Zurdito]

Invader Zim, fair enough that you did not claim to be a medical expert, I apologize for getting carried away.

Regarding implication necessarilly causing causation, if we observe a pattern that we know nothing of, and we note correlation, we have to investigate causation. Only if we have knowledge of the correlating variables which allows us to discount causation, can we dismiss this possiblity. Seeing as we know, however, that an assault can trigger heart failure, in this case correlation does, neccessarilly, imply causation.

To be clear: I am not saying he didn't die initially of a heart attack, I am just saying that this doesn't tell us much beyond the fact that his heart stopped, and that there is no reason at all to believe the police post-mortem claim of natural causes. In fact there is every reason to conclude that being hit hard on the leg with a baton, and then pushed to ground so hard that he hit his head, contributed significantly to the heart attack soon after, due to the close correlation between 2 factors which we know can have a causal relation. It may well be that there is never definitive medical proof that in this case one caused the other. Neither is there nay definitiive proof in any individual case, that smoking was the cause of a person's lung cancer.

Apart from those points though, I have no disagreement with you, and acknowledge that you support a full enquiry and the police involved being locked up.

[Invader Zim]

but the fact that there have been lies and a cover-up points to a series of criminal acts carried out by the riot police.

You are correct, one of them has been caught on video committing assault.


Apart from those points though, I have no disagreement with you, and acknowledge that you support a full enquiry and the police involved being locked up.

Well I'm glad we both agree on that at least. I am also sorry for getting carried away.

[ls]

Excerpts from http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-ian-tomlinson-police

...fresh pictures suggested he had removed his shoulder number and covered his face with a balaclava before hitting Tomlinson with a baton and then pushing him to the ground on Cornhill, in the City of London, last Wednesday.


I saw that.

Also loads of them were doing that, when I was with one lot, this one man looked at all their shoulders and said to everyone else "none of them are wearing their numbers" - that's a whole fucking line of riot police masked up and not wearing any numbers. Dirty fucking ****s.

One of them even started pointing at individuals and trying to crack them over the head one-by-one..

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/09/g20-police-assault-ian-tomlinson-g20

ICC try to remove video of assault from Guardian website. Also this comes from a time when the police are able to arrest people for taking pictures of them.

[brigadista]

I saw that.

Also loads of them were doing that, when I was with one lot, this one man looked at all their shoulders and said to everyone else "none of them are wearing their numbers" - that's a whole fucking line of riot police masked up and not wearing any numbers. Dirty fucking ****s.

One of them even started pointing at individuals and trying to crack them over the head one-by-one..

The police always remove their numbers -when you see that you know what they are going to do-

check out this article regarding the criminalisation of people photographing the police... big implications here..

Section 76 of the Counter Terrorism Act - which has come into force.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7888301.stm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7888301.stm)

[ls]

The police always remove their numbers -when you see that you know what they are going to do-

No they don't always remove their numbers, if they did we would have no accountability, Fitwatch exists to bring some out there.


check out this article regarding the criminalisation of people photographing the police... big implications here..

Section 76 of the Counter Terrorism Act - which has come into force.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7888301.stm (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.anonym.to/?http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7888301.stm)

The police loosely fly around the law but break it as fully as it can be broken when it seems like they'll get away with it.

Just look at the pictures thread.

[brigadista]

my point was mainly about s76 which has implications for anyone photographing them and increases powers...

[Reuben]

I saw that.

Also loads of them were doing that, when I was with one lot, this one man looked at all their shoulders and said to everyone else "none of them are wearing their numbers" - that's a whole fucking line of riot police masked up and not wearing any numbers. Dirty fucking ****s.

One of them even started pointing at individuals and trying to crack them over the head one-by-one..

Well guess what. A day before that came out - i emailed the guardian with a picture taken from the video and said this seems to show the policeman had taken his number off. I wonder if that was down to me.

[Zurdito]

The police (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/police) officer suspended following the death of Ian Tomlinson during G20 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/g20) protests has been questioned on suspicion of manslaughter, after a second postmortem showed that the newspaper vendor did not die of a heart attack.

The Independent Police Complaints Commission said: "Following the initial results of the second postmortem, a Metropolitan police officer has been interviewed under caution for the offence of manslaughter as part of an ongoing inquiry into the death of Ian Tomlinson."

The new postmortem showed that Tomlinson died from an abdominal haemorrhage. The cause of Tomlinson's injury has not been established, but investigators will now have to decide whether alleged police assaults on the 47-year-old contributed to his death
...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/apr/17/ian-tomlinson-g20-protest-coroner

[ls]

What a surprise, the pigs lied.

[Invader Zim]

It seems they employed a pathologist with a crap track-record, and he may not have died of a heart attack at all. The story is, as i read earlier in the week, that there were signs of a heart conditions as well as internal bleeding. The first, and supposedly crap, pathologist concluded death was from the heart problems and the latter from the internal trauma.

[communard resolution]

So what happened in the end? I really lost track, or else they stopped reporting about it. As far as I remember, there was

1) first autopsy (by police coroner): "Ian died of a heart attack"

2) second autopsy (by independent coroner): "Ian died of internal bleeding".

3) embarrassing video footage published by The Guardian. One officer suspended from service.

4) a third autopsy was about to take place.

Then I stopped hearing about it. What have I missed out on?

[redarmyfaction38]

Why do we need to be violent though? Surely a protest is just that: a vocal opposition. We don't need to fight, to destroy and to wreck. All it does is get you arrested or beaten up. Defend yourselves most certainly, but don't go out of your way to attack.

unfortunately, we are just human beings, all the resentment against the lies of the state, the police brutality, the denial of any kind of representation for the views of the majority who are totally opposed to wars in iraq and afghanistan, to the greed and incompetence of international bankers, leads to the kind of frustration that makes a person lash out.
i've been there, i've done it, politically, it's a total waste of time, personally, the sense of release, the feeling of actually, physically, fighting back is liberating and fulfilling for about as long as the riot lasts.
then it's back to work on monday.......
or maybe not, back to work on monday but with a renewed resolve to smash the state properly.
prepared to put all that energy and anger into organising, educating amongst your fellow workers.

"smash a window", "assault a policeman", wouldn't dream of it :D

[teenagebricks]

So what happened in the end? I really lost track, or else they stopped reporting about it. As far as I remember, there was

1) first autopsy (by police coroner): "Ian died of a heart attack"

2) second autopsy (by independent coroner): "Ian died of internal bleeding".

3) embarrassing video footage published by The Guardian. One officer suspended from service.

4) a third autopsy was about to take place.

Then I stopped hearing about it. What have I missed out on?
This (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/G20-Protest-Picture-Shows-Ian-Tomlinson-Had-Head-Injury-After-Being-Pushed-To-Ground-By-Police/Article/200904415268375?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15268375_G20_Protest_Picture_Shows_Ian _Tomlinson_Had_Head_Injury_After_Being_Pushed_To_G round_By_Police) was the last I heard of it, I suppose they're still investigating the incident, hoping that swine flu or one of Gordon Brown's fuck ups will draw public attention away from Ian Tomlinson so that they can just sweep it under the carpet, like they always do.

[communard resolution]

This (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/G20-Protest-Picture-Shows-Ian-Tomlinson-Had-Head-Injury-After-Being-Pushed-To-Ground-By-Police/Article/200904415268375?lpos=UK_News_Carousel_Region_0&lid=ARTICLE_15268375_G20_Protest_Picture_Shows_Ian _Tomlinson_Had_Head_Injury_After_Being_Pushed_To_G round_By_Police) was the last I heard of it, I suppose they're still investigating the incident, hoping that swine flu or one of Gordon Brown's fuck ups will draw public attention away from Ian Tomlinson so that they can just sweep it under the carpet, like they always do.

Yes, that's what I thought as well, but then I wasn't sure if I hadn't missed out on something. It looks like they're counting on everybody's short attention spans - and I'm ashamed to admit they're right: I nearly forgot about the issue.

And yes, the article you linked to reports the last news that I remember hearing. Crucially, it says:


A third post-mortem has been held at the request of lawyers for the police officer involved, but the results have not been revealed.Why not? It's two weeks later, and we still haven't been told the results.

[cyu]

5) trying not to draw more attention to this since the scapegoat has been appointed and the higher-ups have been protected