Vigilante

[Holden Caulfield]

Schoolgirl rapist shot in attack


http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/45618000/jpg/_45618144_rosemountgdns226.jpg The attack happened in the Rosemount Gardens area of Derry


A man shot in both legs in a paramilitary-style attack in Londonderry was awaiting sentencing for raping a 15-year-old schoolgirl. Keith Burnside, 37, was shot in his Rosemount Gardens home by two masked men in front of his girlfriend and two children at about 2315 BST on Monday.
Burnside was convicted in March of raping a girl in his car at Sandbank Cottages in 2000.

He is being treated in hospital for his injuries.
SDLP Councillor Mark H. Durkan said he had spoken to Keith Burnside's girlfriend who witnessed the attack.

"She's in an awful state of shock, it was an extremely traumatic experience for everyone involved," he said.

"There were two young children in the house, a 12-week-old baby and a six-year-old who saw everything."

Councillor Durkan said he did not discuss the motive for the shooting.

"This attack must be condemned regardless of what it was in connection with," he added.

"We cannot have this law of the jungle where people are taking the law into their own hands."

Burnside was due to be sentenced for the rape shortly.
During the trial the court heard that his victim blocked the attack out of her mind for seven years before reporting it, after the accused smirked at her outside a nightclub.
A defence application was due to be heard in Londonderry Crown Court on Tuesday but was adjourned when the court was told of the attack.

Community worker Tommy McCourt said such incidents made people fearful of a return to violence. "It takes you back to the bad old days," he said.

"We believed that those days had passed and nobody wants to see this kind of thing happening again."
SDLP MLA Pat Ramsey also condemned the attack. "The people who carried out this shooting have no support from the local community and no place in a civilised society," he said.

The police said that those responsible were of slim build and wore tracksuits, baseball caps, and scarves over their faces.

The first man was 5ft 10ins and the second 6ft 2ins.

They want anyone who was in the area at the time and may have seen the men to contact them.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7973598.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/foyle_and_west/7973598.stm)

NB. I feel the 'no support from the community' part might well be bullshit.

[Sean]

NB. I feel the 'no support from the community' part might well be bullshit.
You would be correct.

[Rjevan]

"This attack must be condemned..."
Why? A swine got what it deserved (not quite but this is at least a start).
Raping a 15 year-old schoolgirl is disgusting enough but then have the nerve to smirk at her after seeing her again, instead of hiding and walking away, shows that this... "man" doesn't regret anything, would likely do the same again and therefore definitely needs to be taught a lesson he won't forget that fast.


"We cannot have this law of the jungle where people are taking the law into their own hands."
People wouldn't have to take the law into their hands if they could be sure that criminals like him will get adequate penalties for their crimes and won't likely get away with 2 weeks on probation because of their terrible childhood and the expression of deep suffering in their eyes, while copyright pirates are sentenced to 5 years in prison.

Besides, it would be intersting to know if his girlfriend was informed about his crime. If she was, I wonder what her character must be like to have a relationship with a rapist.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Why? A swine got what it deserved (not quite but this is at least a start).
Raping a 15 year-old schoolgirl is disgusting enough but then have the nerve to smirk at her after seeing her again, instead of hiding and walking away, shows that this... "man" doesn't regret anything, would likely do the same again and therefore definitely needs to be taught a lesson he won't forget that fast.



So you agree with an eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth. Surely there's a better way to deal with the man than causing him physical harm? Why can't we help him to get better?

[Rjevan]

Hm, this is a discussion I had once before (here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-hell-have-t102729/index2.html), if you're interested); I don't think that people who harmed other people, sometimes even ruined their lives, deserve help. If someone would really deeply regret his deeds and surrender to the police, it would be a different situation.
But this guy obviously doesn't regret his deed, he made this girl suffer and then even grins at her, so why should I want to help such a cynical bastard? The girl needs help, not the criminal. He had his chance and he wasted it.

Besides, I seriously doubt the prospects of trying to make criminals better people. Many times one of them was released and then the very next thing he did was commiting just the same crime he was sentenced for again.

[ZeroNowhere]

Oh dear, not again (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/4326830/Joker-knifeman-kills-children-and-worker-in-Belgian-creche.html). Anyways, hopefully the people who shot him get hanged.

[Killfacer]

Meh, he deserved it. Don't get me wrong, i don't think it should be a free for all, but i still don't care.

[Redmau5]

Oh dear, not again (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/belgium/4326830/Joker-knifeman-kills-children-and-worker-in-Belgian-creche.html). Anyways, hopefully the people who shot him get hanged.

Hang people for shooting rapists?

[Glorious Union]

If they don't want me taking the law into my own hands then they better find a way of putting it on a higher shelf so I cannot reach it.

[bcbm]

I don't think that people who harmed other people, sometimes even ruined their lives, deserve help.

People don't act the way they do out of a vacuum. If somebody can hurt somebody else to that extent they certainly are in need of more help than most.


why should I want to help such a cynical bastard?

Nobody is asking you to help anyone.


The girl needs help, not the criminal. He had his chance and he wasted it.

What chance? What help had he received? They both need help, and lots of it.


Besides, I seriously doubt the prospects of trying to make criminals better people. Many times one of them was released and then the very next thing he did was commiting just the same crime he was sentenced for again.

It isn't like jail provides much of an experience for bettering one's self, so how can we expect an environment that generally encourages anti-social behavior to make people behave socially when released? Its absurd.

[Bitter Ashes]

The real danger with vigilante attacks is not stuff like this, but that it encourages armed thugs to take the law into thier own hands in other ways. When you tell somebody it's okay to maim and kill if it's something they personaly disagree with then it's just opening the door for stuff like gay-bashing, racial lynch-mobs and even religous police. It also bypasses trial by jury and appeals and as we've seen in the news recently, even 20-30 years down the line it's coming to light with new evidence that these people were in fact innocent.

[Nils T.]

But this guy obviously doesn't regret his deed, he made this girl suffer and then even grins at her, so why should I want to help such a cynical bastard?One person suffered, so you want another person to suffer, no matter the social consequences. Sorry to be blunt, but you're the cynical bastard.
You should want to help so that our society overcome its current stage where injustices, sufferings and frustrations are "compensated" by more and more violence. The rapist for whom the only solution to the usual sentimental injustices and sexual frustration is to resort to violence, and the thugs for whom the only solution to the usual sentimental and sexual violences is to resort to torture, they're all the same.


Why? A swine got what it deserved (not quite but this is at least a start). How do you decide what he deserved ? The two men did not rape him : that's not even an eye for an eye. Personally I consider that shooting someone in the legs is more destructive than a rape. Maybe the first victim in this case too, but I doubt that they asked for her opinion. So who's to decide ? Apparently, that'd be the more violent one...

[benhur]

So easy for revlefters to sing the 'everyone deserves a second chance' tune, when the victim happens to be a perfect stranger. Had the victim been one of their own, I doubt they'd come up with the usual 'both the aggressor and the victim need help' or 'it's all due to social conditions' rhetoric.

[GPDP]

So easy for revlefters to sing the 'everyone deserves a second chance' tune, when the victim happens to be a perfect stranger. Had the victim been one of their own, I doubt they'd come up with the usual 'both the aggressor and the victim need help' or 'it's all due to social conditions' rhetoric.

Yes, because when an injustice is committed against someone dear to us, all rational thought shuts down on our part, and we reduce ourselves to an emotional rabble demanding the head of the victim.

Christ. I mean, I don't disagree that people are prone to such irrational reactions, at least in the beginning, but this is no way to handle crime. That kind of law enforcement does not work, and the US law enforcement system is testament to that.

[Jazzratt]

Vigilante witchunts.

My kinda justice.

http://arxxiduc.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/spanish_inquisition.jpg

And by justice I mean "utter fucking disgrace".

[Rjevan]

People don't act the way they do out of a vacuum. If somebody can hurt somebody else to that extent they certainly are in need of more help than most.
It is irrelevant why he acted as he did. Maybe he really had a bad childhood. So what? Many people have one and they still have themselves under control and don't tick out.


Nobody is asking you to help anyone.
Yes they are. If this happens in Germany, they take also my taxes to pay the psychiatrist for this guy. Maybe it would cost me as much if they'd just lock him away in a padded cell but then I would know that people are safe from him and that he won't get out because he plays nice boy in front of the cops and his psychiatrist and as soon as he's out he will rape again, which is most likely, because if you did this once, why shouldn't you do it again? Because the psychiatrist told him that's evil and that the girl suffered? Because the police told him to not do that again?
No, because he was punished and he had trouble. This is what will stay in mind, not what some doctor told you.


What chance? What help had he received? They both need help, and lots of it.
Heavens, he needs no help, he needs to learn that he's free to do what he likes untill he hurts somebody. Don't tell me that this guy didn't knew that it's bad to rape someone, so here he had his chance: leave the girl alone, you know that she doesn't want to get raped and you know that you cause suffering to her.
But he decided that his own pleasure is more important than the will of this girl. He needs no help, he needs to be taught that he was wrong.


It isn't like jail provides much of an experience for bettering one's self, so how can we expect an environment that generally encourages anti-social behavior to make people behave socially when released? Its absurd.
By showing them that we don't encourage anti-social behaviour, as the two attackers did, or we just keep them looked up. Sure, some criminals would probably change but most won't, so I think it's better to go with the "You had your chance. Who gives your victim(s) a second chance?"-principle.


One person suffered, so you want another person to suffer, no matter the social consequences. Sorry to be blunt, but you're the cynical bastard.
What social consequences? I can imagine social consequences if a criminal is put free, just because he jailed his ? years but is still dangerous as it was the case last year with the paedophile Werner K. who relapsed after every single time he was set free. I'm not cynical, I'm disenchanted.
Do you know how many times a year a new case of "lunatic raped and/or killed a 8 year old child" happens in Germany? I'd say at least 4 times a year.
I'm so much tired of the same "Germany is shocked! How could this happen? The man was known to the police and had to seek out a psychiatrist weekly but didn't do this for half a year now and nothing happened? The German people are shocked!!!"-headlines and reports. And after a month nobody cares about this anymore... until "Germany is shocked" for the next time.


You should want to help so that our society overcome its current stage where injustices, sufferings and frustrations are "compensated" by more and more violence. The rapist for whom the only solution to the usual sentimental injustices and sexual frustration is to resort to violence, and the thugs for whom the only solution to the usual sentimental and sexual violences is to resort to torture, they're all the same.

I do want to help. As I said, if the law would be really fair people wouldn't have to take it into their own hands.
And they are not the same. The rapist hurted an innocent girl, he never saw before and which did nothing that justified him to rape her. The attacker hurted a vicious rapist who did something wrong. I see a difference here.


How do you decide what he deserved ? The two men did not rape him : that's not even an eye for an eye. Personally I consider that shooting someone in the legs is more destructive than a rape. Maybe the first victim in this case too, but I doubt that they asked for her opinion. So who's to decide ? Apparently, that'd be the more violent one...
Well, maybe they could have done something else to him than shooting him in the legs and maybe they could have asked the victim if she agrees with this and what she wants. But they could have done something much more violent, too, so I don't think the the most violent one decides.

[Louise Michel]

I think the problem here is that those who delivered the punishment are not answerable to anyone. Nobody voted for them, the girl wasn't consulted so why do they get to decide who's guilty and what the punishment should be? Maybe next time the vigilantes will come looking for you or me.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Hm, this is a discussion I had once before (here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/why-hell-have-t102729/index2.html), if you're interested); I don't think that people who harmed other people, sometimes even ruined their lives, deserve help. If someone would really deeply regret his deeds and surrender to the police, it would be a different situation.
But this guy obviously doesn't regret his deed, he made this girl suffer and then even grins at her, so why should I want to help such a cynical bastard? The girl needs help, not the criminal. He had his chance and he wasted it.

Besides, I seriously doubt the prospects of trying to make criminals better people. Many times one of them was released and then the very next thing he did was commiting just the same crime he was sentenced for again.

So what would be your solution to this in a post revolutionary society. 'Crimes' we know today will generally be radically reduced but crimes of passion and ones like this one would still exist. I am completely against prisons. Why should punishment be the answer? Obviously this man has had a traumatic childhood or something to have done something like this. Why should we not try to rehabilitate him? No person is beyond rehabilitation.

[ZeroNowhere]

Obviously this man has had a traumatic childhood or something to have done something like this.
Not necessarily anything as dramatic. It could have just been the sum total of many coincidences, as many things are.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

So easy for revlefters to sing the 'everyone deserves a second chance' tune, when the victim happens to be a perfect stranger. Had the victim been one of their own, I doubt they'd come up with the usual 'both the aggressor and the victim need help' or 'it's all due to social conditions' rhetoric.

This is not true. Even if someone had killed my brother I would never want them to go to prison. I know that something bad has happened to them and that they need help to reverse the effects of whatever has been done to them. Prison won't do this.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Not necessarily anything as dramatic. It could have just been the sum total of many coincidences, as many things are.

Yes I agree what I mean is there is always a reason behind someones actions and to deprive someone of their life for this is completely anti-thetical to my political beliefs in my opinion. The justice I seek is one which helps to cure the criminal not punish them.

[ZeroNowhere]

This is not true. Even if someone had killed my brother I would never want them to go to prison. I know that something bad has happened to them and that they need help to reverse the effects of whatever has been done to them. Prison won't do this.
Hell, Dennis Perrin, who had earlier been left and going further in that direction, and staunchly anti-war, suddenly turned to a patriot after 9/11, and supported both the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. He later dropped this after looking back over his and Hitchens' old works, and went back to his old anti-war views, of course, though it took a while. This does not make the Afghanistan or Iraq wars worth supporting.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

Well that's how I think I would respond. Not everybody hates the person who has killed a loved one. You hear many stories of people forgiving the perpretrator.

[ZeroNowhere]

Well that's how I think I would respond. Not everybody hates the person who has killed a loved one. You hear many stories of people forgiving the perpretrator.
Sure, my point was that even if you did suddenly get a thirst for vegeance, ben's point is still irrelevant as an argument against your current position (or anything, really).

[Rjevan]

So what would be your solution to this in a post revolutionary society. 'Crimes' we know today will generally be radically reduced but crimes of passion and ones like this one would still exist. I am completely against prisons. Why should punishment be the answer? Obviously this man has had a traumatic childhood or something to have done something like this. Why should we not try to rehabilitate him? No person is beyond rehabilitation.
Is it really that hard to believe that somebody is just evil? :(
There must not always have been a beating alcoholic father, nor is it inevitable that a criminal was mobbed, lonely and unbeloved in his youth. It absolutely isn't obvious that he had a raumatic childhood and even if he had, as I said, many many people had a bad childhood. Is that a reason to act like he did? Unlike many psychiatrists I don't see a connection between a bad childhood and crimes. What's the one got to do with the other?

Look there was the case of Magnus Gäfgen here in 2002. He had a good childhood, his parents were somewhat wealthy, he had friends at school, he was engaged to the catholic church in his hometown and he did his civillian service in a nursing home. During his time at university he wasted much money, so one evening he decided to kidnapp the banker son Jakob von Metzler, choked him and then he made a ransom demand about 1 million € to Jakob's parents. Now he tries to play the victim and never gets tired of expressing his terrible fear because a police officer threatened to beat him, if he won't tell where he buried Jakob (the police thought the boy was buried alive, because Gäfgen told them this).
In my opinion this little bastard is just evil and I don't want one cent of my taxes wasted to his comfort. Would you really want to help this asshole?

I would just lock them away, so we can be sure that they won't harm anyone again and let them do some sensible work, so they did at least one useful thing in their life for the society they harmed.


This is not true. Even if someone had killed my brother I would never want them to go to prison. I know that something bad has happened to them and that they need help to reverse the effects of whatever has been done to them. Prison won't do this.
Sure, prison won't help him. But please, answer me honestly: If your brother (given that you liked your brother, of course) was killed, would you really think: "Oh my god, someone just killed my brother. What an unbelievable miserable childhood this man/woman must have had, I feel so deeply sorry for him/her and I feel the urgent need to help this poor, lonesome and misunderstood creature imediately!" I can assure you, I wouldn't.