Socialism 2009 in USA!!! [Archive]

OriginalGumby

31st March 2009, 02:14

Building a New Left for a New Era
REGISTRATION OPEN NOW !

Socialism 2009

Chicago – June 18-21

San Francisco – July 2-5

A weekend of revolutionary politics, debate, and entertainment

Register Online Today! Google "socialism conference 2009"

Basic early bird registration is just $75 before May 1. We know times are tight, but if you can register at a solidarity level of $150, $300 or $500, your contribution will help assure the biggest audience possible for putting radical ideas into action. Also, please consider making a contribution to the Scholarship Fund which will help cash-strapped workers and students attend.

Why Socialism 2009?

The world economic crisis has shattered the free-market consensus that has dominated politics for the last generation. Meanwhile, the end of the conservative era and the election of the first African-American president have raised expectations among working people that long overdue change is at hand. With capitalism in crisis, even some in the corporate media are admitting that Karl Marx was right.

There has never been a better time for those who want see fundamental change to get together to debate, discuss and organize for a new society based on the needs of the many instead of on the whims of a few. In other words, there has never been a better time to organize a new socialist left to meet the challenge of this new era.

That’s the purpose that Socialism 2009—expanded to two sites this year—has set for itself. Gather with activists and scholars from all over to take part in dozens of discussions about changing the world: How can we stop the economic madness? How can we end racism? What kind of organization do we need? What would a future socialist society look like?

Yes we can organize for socialism in the 21st century! ¡Sí se puede!

Join Robert Brenner, Dennis Brutus, Anuradha Mittal, Dahr Jamail, David Zirin, Heather Rogers, Claudio Katz, Laura Flanders, Ahmed Shawki, Sherry Wolf, Sharon Smith, Paul LeBlanc, Anthony Arnove, Leo Zeilig, Alan Maass, Christian Parenti, Marlene Martin, Keeanga-Yamahtta Taylor, James Green, Paul D’Amato, Jennifer Roesch, Ashley Smith, Lance Selfa, Michael Klare, Brian Jones, John Riddell, Joel Geier, Justin Akers-Chacón, Ian Angus, Adrienne Johnson, Sarah Knopp, Jesse Hagopian, Todd Chretien, Dr. Jess Ghannam and more! Check back at our website for an updated list of speakers.

The young people at the conference took me back in time to when you were ready to stand for what was right. It lets you know that what you may have planted years ago will come to reality today. I feel great to have become a part of it.

--Dr. John Carlos, 1968 Olympic bronze medalist who raised the Black Power salute

Socialism conferences are exciting gathering places for students and young activists, for revolutionary scholars, and fighters for social justice to share ideas and experiences that can help us understand and change the world. I've been to a couple – it's not enough. I'm coming again.

--Paul LeBlanc, scholar and activist

Sponsored by Center for Economic Research and Social Change, publisher of International Socialist Review and Haymarket Books, and the International Socialist Organization, publisher of Socialist Worker and Obrero Socialista newspapers.

For more information and to register, go to the website , or call (773) 583-7884.

OriginalGumby

31st March 2009, 02:38

OriginalGumby

31st March 2009, 02:45

Thanks!

Kassad

31st March 2009, 02:46

Jesus Christ in a clown car. $75? Good luck with that. Don't these guys have something better to do, such as supporting Green Party candidates like they have previously? If the International Socialist Organization is that desperate for cash, maybe they should just fade into obscurity.

...Oh wait.

OriginalGumby

31st March 2009, 02:54

Actually its because we are renting out an entire hotel for a four day event with upwards of a hundred sessions and guests from half a dozen or more different countries. That takes money and its worth it because Socialism conferences are the place to be for socialist politics. This year we are having our huge event in two cities because we have no plans to fad into obscurity. ;)

Kassad

31st March 2009, 03:00

International Socialist Organization's reformist and revisionist philosophy is nearly laughable. I'm stunned I even consider labeling them as a socialist group. So tell me. Will you be educating them to be reformists and capitalist sympathizers like the majority of your organization or will you be attempting to veil your surrealist fantasies about class struggle with "Leninist" overtones?

OriginalGumby

31st March 2009, 17:26

Capitalist sympathizers??? Who's the clown now? We certainly won't be "educating" them to be supporters of bureaucratic state capitalist regimes. We oppose exploitative class systems whether the bosses call each other comrade or not. Calling the ISO reformist is a joke, we fight for reforms like any real socialist should all the while discussing and recruiting people to support and build a real revolutionary tradition. We don't need to fanasize about struggle when are quite active in it using a method that Lenin would be proud of.

Kassad

31st March 2009, 18:23

Your group endorsed a capitalist candidate running on a capitalist platform in a capitalist party. I doubt you'll be blunt and teach your supporters to advocate free enterprise, but if you follow your organization's line, you may teach them to be reformists and revisionists who support capitalist candidates. Of course, you know what Lenin would be proud of, though, despite the fact that he died long before he could see revolutionary socialism spread, thus his theories are not to be taken totally without fail, just as no one's words should be accepted without questioning and a grain of salt. That goes for Marx, Lenin and everyone else, so I frankly don't care what anyone would be 'proud' of.

You can preach all you want. You can claim all you wish. Regardless, your organization has supported capitalists. That's a betrayal of revolutionary socialism. There's nothing wrong with respecting persons like Dennis Kucinich and Cynthia McKinney, but at the end of the day, you must realize that no real solution will come from their sympathetic philosophy towards capitalism. ISO is notable for backing Nader in 2004. I like Nader, but no solutions will ever come from him. We should be organizing, not praying for solutions through bourgeoisie elections. If you support capitalists, you sympathize with the system they support. Sorry.

alhop10

31st March 2009, 19:56

We should be organizing, not praying for solutions through bourgeoisie elections. If you support capitalists, you sympathize with the system they support. Sorry.

Saying it's ok to vote in a bourgeois democracy isnt the same as 'supporting capitalists' surely?

Random Precision

31st March 2009, 20:49

I'm hoping to make it out to the one in Chicago.

As for Kassad, I think your line that "theories are not to be taken totally without fail" is correct when it comes to, as you say "supporting capitalist parties". I believe that in the United States we face a situation that requires creativity. In 2000 and 2004, Ralph Nader had a quite strong anti-corporate message that could not help but translate into an anti-capitalist message for many activists, and I can't say how many comrades I've met for whom that was the case. In any case, it was much more effective than the WWP/PSL strategy of throwing away the opportunity for a socialist voice to be heard on the left by running a candidate who no one has ever heard of and who had no serious support.

Whereas in 2008, both the Green Party and Nader seriously compromised their independence from the Democratic Party sought some sort of reconciliation with Obama. In our opinion this involvement with the Democrats has always been a trap for the left, which is why we endorsed no candidate last year. This is essentially what the conference this year will be about:

We should be organizing, not praying for solutions through bourgeoisie (sic) elections.

Accusing us of being "capitalist sympathizers" helps nothing. I would actually recommend that you come along to Socialism, if you're in the PSL some of your comrades will probably be there. Plus it's the biggest socialist conference in the country and anyone who's serious about their politics should try to attend.

And considering the current state and tactics of the PSL, it's a bit rich of you to talk about us fading into obscurity.

spritely

31st March 2009, 21:10

Paul LeBlanc is a washed up hack.

The ISO having a convention on socialism is like the Green Party having a convention on guerrilla warfare. Is this the same ISO who recently had a member at a public conference in New York say "There is little in what [Hamas polit bureau leader Khaled Meshal] says that I disagree with"? You know, Hezbollah whose "covenant" says of Jews "With their money, they took control of the world media ... stireed revolutions in various parts of teh world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution ... With their money they formed secret socities ... They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources"?

:lol:

spritely

31st March 2009, 21:12

The ISO has nothing to do with the revolutionary left. ISO members should be restricted here. They are third positionists.

Kassad

31st March 2009, 22:27

Alhop10, you totally missed my point. Democracy in the capitalist system is tightly controlled and manipulated by the bourgeoisie and the corporate entities they maintain. The corporate media consistently paints the two corporate parties as the only viable options and any third party opposition is regarded as irrelevant, despite how often third party candidates promote real solutions, as opposed to bourgeoisie ones. The Party for Socialism and Liberation runs candidates for office, but we realize they will never win. Even if they did, in the capitalist system, they would make little differences. Therefore, elections are used as educational opportunities to educate the working class about revolutionary socialism and promote the message of Marxism. Of course, this logic only works when you're actually promoting revolutionary socialism, as opposed to backing a capitalist candidate advocating capitalist policies. Though the International Socialist Organization fans in this thread would like to claim otherwise it seems, Ralph Nader is incredibly opposed to socialism, notable when at his protest on Wall Street, his supporters held a banner that said 'Socialism saves capitalism.' Of course, as we know, this is claiming that socialism is a negative thing, as Nader consistently criticizes socialism as strict government control. Now, does that sound like the message that the ISO promotes? Socialism is bureaucratic? Socialism is against the interests of the worker? So now we see that the ISO is supporting not only a capitalist candidate, but an anti-socialist candidate. Great job, chaps.

Random Precision, are you asserting that just because someone's popular, we should support them? I suppose you could say socialism is not popular right now, so because it isn't receiving 'serious support', we should forsake it. Do you see how fallacious that statement is? I understand where you're coming from. I don't despise Nader or McKinney. It isn't like ISO backed Obama or Kerry and I totally respect them for that, but as I discussed above, it's obvious that Nader is incredibly anti-socialist, thus he is no better than a petty reformist. He claims socialism is a negative thing for the worker and mainly preaches appeasement of the working class.

Also, as a quick point, I think the reason that literally no third party support was rallied this year was mostly due to people being so opposed to President Bush's policies, which took the form of John McCain's presidential campaign. Even many socialists were so afraid of McCain that they voted for Obama. I don't condone that, but it's what happened.

First off, what does (sic) mean? Anyway, I've spent a significant amount of time and money on attending the March on the Pentagon and I will be attending one of the PSL's three conferences on socialism in Chicago this month. I would like to come, but the overnight event makes it impossible, as well as the price being unfeasible for me. I'll talk to a few of my contacts in Chicago to see if they're attending and I'll get some feedback from them when the time arrives.

Of course, the ignorance never ends. The Party for Socialism and Liberation is the most active and likely the fastest growing socialist party in the country. In merely four years, they managed to tally more votes in the election than the Socialist Workers Party and Socialist Party USA. I'd say that's quite a feat. The party is on the steering committee for the ANSWER Coalition, which has led every major anti-war rally since September the 11th, as well as organizing dozens of demonstrations against police brutality, racism and homophobia, along with rallying support for immigrant rights, workers right to unionize and obtain fair wages, along with a multitude of other events. The Party for Socialism and Liberation is growing incredibly rapidly with branches springing up for ANSWER and the PSL across the country. We consistently pull in dozens of supporters who join the party from different rallies and protests, such as the March on the Pentagon. Liberation newspaper, as well as the party's magazine, Socialism and Liberation are selling incredibly well and the PSL carries its banner proudly during all sorts of events.

Pretty obscure, I'd say.

spritely

31st March 2009, 22:43

The Party for Socialism and Liberation runs candidates for office, but we realize they will never win.

That makes as much sense as a hot dog in a taco shell.

What's funny? The PSL is just as reformist as the ISO. They may have a more militant facade but in the end they're reformists alike.

They call for funding for schools not for wars / police / whatever. They promote the lie that capitalism can be reformed to meet our needs.

They raise the old 60's call for community control of the police. They promote the lie that the state is something other than a tool of the bourgeoisie to oppressed everyone else.

They promote trade union bureaucrats and identity politics. They hop in bed with anyone who bumps heads with washington irregardless of how reactionary.

"The party is on the steering committee for the ANSWER Coalition, which has led every major anti-war rally into the arms of the Democrats". There I fixed it for you baby.

Therefore, elections are used as educational opportunities to educate the working class about revolutionary socialism and promote the message of Marxism.

Why not use the same resources for general education campaigns. Why does it have to be elections? We run in this election to prove that this election is not worth running in is a bizarre tactic that has been used for decades. It's weird kids.

I don't despise Nader or McKinney.

Revolutionaries don't despise them either. They know that they're agents of the class enemy.

It isn't like ISO backed Obama or Kerry

Not explicitly. Explicitly they backed a less popular agent of the capitalists.

Non-explicitly they participate in UFPJ which aims to corral dissident Americans against the war back into the Democratic Party.

mainly preaches appeasement of the working class.

Not even. He's openly anti-union and anti-immigrant.

The closest the Greens ever had to a socialist candidate was Peter Camejo for VP (a guy whose claim to fame is that he left a socialist party / his claim to money is that he made a fortune on wall street but thats another story).

Pretty obscure, I'd say.

At least you can admit it. 99.9% of the population has never heard of the PSL. Your strategies suck. They haven't worked for 100 years. They won't work now.

Kassad

31st March 2009, 22:54

No, they don't. It says on the website 1,000 times that real reforms cannot be obtained under capitalism. You can read, can't you? Stop lying. I mean, your entire post is filled with stereotypical and blatantly false accusations that you could not justify no matter how hard you tried. It's absurd. You can use elections to spread socialism. People are fed up with corporate candidates, so you turn them on to Marx and Lenin. Voi-fucking-la. Do I have to spell all this out for you?

When referring to Nader, I mean he is trying to appease them through providing just a living wage and just single-payer healthcare, this in no regard for revolutionary class struggle. He attacks the symptoms, not the disease. Also, I was not aware that Ralph Nader was anti-union. Is there a source for that?

Anyway, to the root of your fallacious post with more holes than a pasta strainer, it isn't about recognition. A significant majority of the American population doesn't give a shit about Marxism, Leninism, Maoism, Anarchism or socialism in general. Most despise it. According to your ideology, that means we should just stop what we're doing and put a screeching halt on all our attempts at education.

Your kind are the reason nothing ever gets done. You're too invested in petty, sectarian disputes that you don't even preach solutions, you just preach the negative aspects of everything else. By your notion, that must mean all socialist parties, groups and people in the United States 'suck', because their strategies do not work. If irrationality turned me on, I'd be going wild right now from your post.

spritely

31st March 2009, 23:25

When your mayor candidate gets on TV and says our campaign wants to take funding from the LAPD and use it for education instead / instead of saying capitalism is a system organized around creating profit and only a new socialist system in which the working class rules can be organized to meet human need, that's a sneaky kind of reformism.

People are fed up with corporate candidates, so you turn them on to Marx and Lenin. Voi-fucking-la. Do I have to spell all this out for you?

Why would you have to run in an election to do that?

Also, I was not aware that Ralph Nader was anti-union. Is there a source for that?

There are tons. Use google. "You can read, can't you?"

According to your ideology, that means we should just stop what we're doing and put a screeching halt on all our attempts at education.

According to my ideology? What does that mean? Weirdo.

What I'm saying is your attempts at education suck. So do mine. What we're doing isn't working. We need something new.

Your kind are the reason nothing ever gets done.

I've been doing "something" since the 60's, non stop. Problem is all my somethings / along with everyone else's / amounted to nothing,.

You're too invested in petty, sectarian disputes that you don't even preach solutions, you just preach the negative aspects of everything else.

One thing I know is true reformism must be criticized and rooted out by revolutionaries. That's been the case from Marx to Luxemburg to Lenin to Castro to Bishop.

By your notion, that must mean all socialist parties, groups and people in the United States 'suck', because their strategies do not work.

They do. That's why America is capitalist. They have all failed. None of them have any prospects for success. What would you call that?

If irrationality turned me on, I'd be going wild right now from your post.

And if misusing words, misunderstanding concepts and the nature of reformism and towing the party line got turned me on I wouldn't need viagra.

:tt1:

31st March 2009, 23:57

Jesus Christ in a clown car. $75?

What a joke, seriously, and thats for early registration! Whats it going to be for day-of registration?! (edit: checked the website, 85 dollars!)

Their former comrades in the SWP-UK have a conference Marxism 2009 thats a day longer, in a much more expensive city, with famous speakers flown in from around the world and far more speakers at the equivolent of 50 dollars for people with jobs, under 30 dollars for students and 14 dollars for minors.

The ISO seems to misunderstand the concept of a 'solidarity price.' Reputable lefty organizations with public conferences offer tickets at cost to pay for the conferences expenses, normally at reduced prices for unemployed/students, and offer 'solidarity prices' to people who want to donate/help-fund the party. The 75 dollar price is clearly a 'solidarity price'. If the ISO uses its conference as a profit making/fund raising opportunity rather than part of the educational/movement-building work it does it just points to being more concerned with self-perpetuation rather then real political affect.

spritely

1st April 2009, 00:16

99% of the ISO's members and supporters are college kids at expensive private schools. Looks like they priced it pretty accurately to correspond to that to me.

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 00:24

Random Precision, are you asserting that just because someone's popular, we should support them?

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that in 2000 and 2004, Ralph Nader presented a serious leftist challenge to the two-party system because of his anti-corporate message. In today's situation, an anti-corporate message cannot help but to translate into an anti-capitalist message, and the Nader campaign became the vehicle through which thousands of people, first encountered socialist politics. In the United States, it was completely justified for revolutionaries to work within the Nader campaign.

First off, what does (sic) mean?

Sorry. I have a bit of a thing for correcting people's grammar. You used the phrase "bourgeoisie elections", where it should be "bourgeois elections", the former being a noun and the latter an adjective. (Sic) means that you are aware of spelling or grammar errors in something you quote. Once again I apologize.

Of course, the ignorance never ends. The Party for Socialism and Liberation is the most active and likely the fastest growing socialist party in the country. In merely four years, they managed to tally more votes in the election than the Socialist Workers Party and Socialist Party USA. I'd say that's quite a feat.

I don't suppose I need to point out that electoral success, especially with our current electoral system, is by no means an indicator of overall success. Revolutionaries have higher standards, such as work done around workers' struggles.

The party is on the steering committee for the ANSWER Coalition

Don't be so shy. Your party is the ANSWER Coalition. But I would argue that ANSWER has helped to derail the antiwar movement through its consistent petty sectarianism- I don't believe it's that important that solidarity with Palestine be required of people who want to participate in the antiwar movement, for instance.

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 00:26

The ISO seems to misunderstand the concept of a 'solidarity price.' Reputable lefty organizations with public conferences offer tickets at cost to pay for the conferences expenses, normally at reduced prices for unemployed/students, and offer 'solidarity prices' to people who want to donate/help-fund the party.

That is exactly what is happening at this event.

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 01:03

Is this the same ISO who recently had a member at a public conference in New York say "There is little in what [Hamas polit bureau leader Khaled Meshal] says that I disagree with"?

First, which are you talking about, Hamas or Hizbullah? Second, which member? Third, what was the context?

The ISO has nothing to do with the revolutionary left. ISO members should be restricted here. They are third positionists.

That is slander.

99% of the ISO's members and supporters are college kids at expensive private schools. Looks like they priced it pretty accurately to correspond to that to me.

Kindly shove that statistic straight back up where it came from.

Kassad

1st April 2009, 01:05

I'm about done paying attention to Spritely's lack of sources, ignorance and spamming. Consider yourself ignored. Post sources, references or actual justification in rational paragraphs and I'll reconsider my decision. Your bullshit belongs on www.LewRockwell.com (http://www.LewRockwell.com).

That's not at all what I'm saying. I'm saying that in 2000 and 2004, Ralph Nader presented a serious leftist challenge to the two-party system because of his anti-corporate message. In today's situation, an anti-corporate message cannot help but to translate into an anti-capitalist message, and the Nader campaign became the vehicle through which thousands of people, first encountered socialist politics. In the United States, it was completely justified for revolutionaries to work within the Nader campaign.

I'm sure there were people recruited to the socialist camp due to the Nader campaign and I applaud that, but I can say with an honest heart that many of them were turned away from it as well; forever hanging in the balance between capitalism and reformism. The problem with your reasoning is that you cannot just rely on an anti-corporate message. You have to promote the emancipation of all working peoples and Ralph Nader does not do that. Neither does any capitalist. I respect most of Nader's platform, but he doesn't manage key issues properly to promote class consciousness and revolutionary change. In truth, he'd be like Hugo Chavez, whom I admire greatly, but I will never claim that his ideology is a substitute for socialist philosophy. Of course, this is a differentiation of opinions, so I'll leave it at that. I definitely understand where you're coming from.

Also, no worries about the grammar. I'd like to use it as proper as possible, so I appreciate it.

I don't suppose I need to point out that electoral success, especially with our current electoral system, is by no means an indicator of overall success. Revolutionaries have higher standards, such as work done around workers' struggles.

This is totally contradictory to your support for those who voted for Ralph Nader in 2000 and 2004. Electoral success doesn't mean a thing, as bourgeois (better? :p) elections are corrupt and irreparable. They are a product of the capitalist system, which is a key reason as to why I do not support the protesters at Tiananmen Square. Elections under capitalism are not elections. They are monetary corporate shams. We both know that. Regardless, I don't believe Ralph Nader properly performs in the aspect of workers struggles, whereas the Party for Socialism and Liberation does.

Don't be so shy. Your party is the ANSWER Coalition. But I would argue that ANSWER has helped to derail the antiwar movement through its consistent petty sectarianism- I don't believe it's that important that solidarity with Palestine be required of people who want to participate in the antiwar movement, for instance.

This is actually the reason behind our split with Workers World. Workers World wanted to join with United for Peace and Justice, a liberal group that supported John Kerry. Those who split from Workers World wanted a coalition of revolutionaries who opposed imperialism, capitalism and the destruction they both cause. I don't consider ANSWER to be sectarian merely because it has a strict ideological line. We oppose imperialism and if you do not express solidarity with the oppressed in Palestine, you are failing to take action and this lack of response is nothing short of condoning Zionist destruction. It's funny that you say this, actually, because one of the heavist criticisms directed at us is that we align too much with moderates and attempt to not make them feel unwelcome. It isn't sectarian, it's promoting an ideology of revolutionary change. In truth, it is not ANSWER's duty to unite the anti-war movement, for this isn't just about war. It's about workers, capitalism and oppression. United for Peace and Justice can be a moderate group to appeal to a broader base. The World Can't Wait can advocate petty reforms. ANSWER is not here to unite people from all ideological callings. We are here to forge a movement to promote revolution, not reforms.

spritely

1st April 2009, 01:10

I know I know you don't want to acknowledge that you're rrrrrrrevolutionary group promotes reformism and backs reactionaries under a red flag.

spritely

1st April 2009, 01:16

We are here to forge a movement to promote revolution, not reforms.

So stop calling for community control of the police (not possible), funding for education instead of wars and police (not possible), holding liberal anti-war parades, providing stage space to Democrats and other capitalist agents at your liberal anti-war rallies and scaling back protests around election time.

Ian Smith sucks.

spritely

1st April 2009, 01:18

Kindly shove that statistic straight back up where it came from.

...Girl you know it's true...

Are you going to pretend the ISO isn't made up of about 1000 paper members from private college campuses?

Why be dishonest? Does that help us at all?

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 01:19

The problem with your reasoning is that you cannot just rely on an anti-corporate message. You have to promote the emancipation of all working peoples and Ralph Nader does not do that.

Yes, and this is what the ISO was trying to promote by working within the Nader campaign.

Regardless, I don't believe Ralph Nader properly performs in the aspect of workers struggles, whereas the Party for Socialism and Liberation does.

I was actually talking about activity outside of elections- success in intervening in strikes, for example, which we do whenever possible.

We oppose imperialism and if you do not express solidarity with the oppressed in Palestine, you are failing to take action and this lack of response is nothing short of condoning Zionist destruction. It's funny that you say this, actually, because one of the heavist criticisms directed at us is that we align too much with moderates and attempt to not make them feel unwelcome. It isn't sectarian, it's promoting an ideology of revolutionary change.

We think that the objective in this case is to build a mass antiwar movement. ANSWER has had numerous opportunities to help build such a movement, but time and again they've chosen instead to try to enforce ideological unity and subject everything to their control. That's why we see their approach as sectarian and counter-productive.

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 01:21

Are you going to pretend the ISO isn't made up of about 1000 paper members from private college campuses?

It's not true. I suggest you provide sources that back up your claim.

spritely

1st April 2009, 01:22

First, which are you talking about, Hamas or Hizbullah?

Hizullah. Sorry. Typo!

Second, which member?

Lichi D'Amelio who is a leader of the ISO actually.

Third, what was the context?

The context was a discussion at Hunter College. D'Amelio said "There is little in what [Khaled Meshal] says that I disagree with."

She also told people to boycott hummus made by the Sabra company saying "It's not even Jewish, but Arab food"[!!!!]

There were tons of people there. They all heard it. It's documented.

spritely

1st April 2009, 01:24

Anti-corporate in the context of Nader = small capitalists who wish they could have made it big and become corporations instead of remaining small and having a hard time competing.

The ISO worked in THAT campaign to promote "the emancipation of all working people". Ok. :lol:

spritely

1st April 2009, 01:25

It's not true. I suggest you provide sources that back up your claim.

My source is real life.

Even most IScabO members admit that they are made up by and large of students. Why won't you? Trying to save face on this super proletarian website?

Your organization even rationalizes it by saying workers aren't ready yet.

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 01:40

Even most IScabO members admit that they are made up by and large of students.

So students cannot be workers? In fact when we do recruit students, these days it is mostly at community colleges- the students there all go on to become high-powered managers on Wall Street, of course.

Your organization even rationalizes it by saying workers aren't ready yet.

I seriously doubt that.

Kassad

1st April 2009, 01:41

Random, I'm sorry, but that's as stupid as saying working with the Obama campaign was working towards workers emancipation. You can't achieve socialism through capitalist reforms, especially through working with a capitalist party. Why wouldn't you spend your time and energy promoting revolutionary socialism, as opposed to petty reformism? The Party for Socialism and Liberation is active in a multitude of workers struggles, notably the Chicago Windows and Doors workers who occupied their factory and the teachers striking in California, along with many others.

On ANSWER, it's like I said before. This isn't about being anti-war. It's about being anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist. If you see that as sectarian, I don't know what else to tell you.

Random Precision

1st April 2009, 01:50

Random, I'm sorry, but that's as stupid as saying working with the Obama campaign was working towards workers emancipation.

It's quite different. The Nader campaign was a clear challenge to the two-party system- which we see as an important objective in our goal of building the revolutionary party.

You can't achieve socialism through capitalist reforms, especially through working with a capitalist party.

Correct. But we didn't think that by working within the Nader campaign, we were establishing socialism. It's more like a small step on a very long road.

On ANSWER, it's like I said before. This isn't about being anti-war. It's about being anti-capitalist and anti-imperialist. If you see that as sectarian, I don't know what else to tell you.

If you want to end the war in Iraq, it is very much about being anti-war. When it comes to anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism in general, we don't see a mass movement being created out of that right now, and when it is created it certainly won't come out of groups like ANSWER forcing an ideological straightjacket on people.

Kassad

1st April 2009, 01:59

What is the point of rejecting the two capitalist parties if you embrace another capitalist party? This doesn't make the slightest bit of sense. I don't care how anti-corporate or anti-war he was. He is still a capitalist who insults and rejects socialism, claiming that socialism is what the current government in the United States is trying to implement to save itself. It's totally absurd.

If ANSWER ideologically suppresses people, I can't fathom why we let Code Pink (liberals) attend our marches, World Can't Wait (reformist group; front for the Revolutionary Communist Party), Cindy Sheehan (liberal) and a multitude of other non-socialist groups. We aren't going to condone Obama supporters, but they still march at our rallies. We didn't condone Nader supporters. They still marched with us. I mean, besides our split with United for Peace and Justice, can you supply me with one shred of evidence that ANSWER is sectarian and breaking up the anti-war movement? ANSWER is focusing on very specific issues, but looking at war as just plain war is abhorrent to socialist philosophy. We, as socialists, should realize that there is not just a war in Iraq, a war in Afghanistan and so forth. There is imperialist domination across the globe. These aren't petty squabbles. These are total and utter hegemonic occupations of nations, regions and entire areas. No socialists should say they are just 'anti-war.' They should be opposed to imperialism, which stretches across the barrier of nearly every "war" the United States has ever been involved in since the start of the 20th century. I mean, you don't think ANSWER is focusing on issues? ANSWER is protesting the racist killing of Oscar Grant. They are protesting layoffs and benefits cuts for workers. They protested with the Chicago Windows and Doors workers. They're protesting against Proposition 8. I could go on all day. What else do you want from us?

manic expression

1st April 2009, 02:15

Don't be so shy. Your party is the ANSWER Coalition. But I would argue that ANSWER has helped to derail the antiwar movement through its consistent petty sectarianism- I don't believe it's that important that solidarity with Palestine be required of people who want to participate in the antiwar movement, for instance.

To jump in here, what is wrong with promoting solidarity with the Palestinian people? Like Kassad said, many different anti-war tendencies and individuals march with ANSWER, so practically speaking it's more flexible than you say. At any rate, it's of the utmost importance to show people that the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are closely intertwined with the oppression of Palestine and other imperialist efforts around the world; that's precisely what Marxists need to be saying today, is it not?

1st April 2009, 06:05

Yeah, I was going to go to this last year but never ended up going because I don't have $75 to throw around. The price is absolutely insane and completely antithetical to the point of the event. I'll go if someone gives me $75, but I doubt that will happen.

Perhaps the ISO should divert some of their funds out of their publishing budget, as they obviously waste a ton of money on that crap, so that people that aren't rich can go.

black magick hustla

1st April 2009, 06:59

if i have 75 dollars to throw away i might go to this btw

black magick hustla

1st April 2009, 07:03

but prolly not. asdaefhwefhwefhewhfwe its a shame

JimmyJazz

1st April 2009, 07:33

Perhaps the ISO should divert some of their funds out of their publishing budget, as they obviously waste a ton of money on that crap, so that people that aren't rich can go.

Haymarket books is a hell of a lot more important than some conference.

1st April 2009, 08:04

if i have 75 dollars to throw away i might go to this btw

If i had 75 dollars to throw away i would have one less argument against capitalism lol. Wtf has 75 dollars to throw away?

1st April 2009, 14:32

Haymarket books is a hell of a lot more important than some conference.

Yes, I'm sure the advertisements for this had to be printed on such thick paper.:rolleyes:

Kassad

1st April 2009, 14:43

Just so you know, KC, your organization has a link to ANSWER's website on your links page. http://www.socialistalternative.org/links/

:tt2:

1st April 2009, 15:27

Just so you know, KC, your organization has a link to ANSWER's website on your links page. http://www.socialistalternative.org/links/

First, not "my organization".

Second, so what?

Kassad

1st April 2009, 15:36

Aren't you usually a critic of the Party for Socialism and Liberation, as well as the ANSWER Coalition?

1st April 2009, 15:46

Aren't you usually a critic of the Party for Socialism and Liberation, as well as the ANSWER Coalition?

I'm a critic of a lot of organizations; I'm a critic of PSL to you because you're a member.

Leo

1st April 2009, 23:08

if i have 75 dollars to throw away i might go to this btw I wouldn't pay five dollars for entrance to any political meeting, even if Marx himself was speaking. Donations are of course a different thing, but entrance fees? What a ridiculous idea, not even the lame Turkish CP or any of the five local Cliffite groups here do anything this obvious.

OriginalGumby

1st April 2009, 23:45

Of course you can't reform capitalism into socialism and that is not what we are proposing. Instead fighting for and winning real reforms, not only makes living conditions better sometimes but can embolden the working class to fight for more. http://socialistworker.org/2008/07/08/reform-or-revolution

The Nader stuff has been beaten to death seriously...we recruited a bunch of people not to become reformists but revolutionaries and we are not chained to him. Hell if Nader is ever in a position to really win in some rising period of struggle we would probably support/run someone else. Also what makes you think we are not involved in "workers struggles" We have teachers and others in the unions all over and we were at Republic supporting the occupation.

About the cost of the conference we do fund raising and anyone who is not financially able to go is sponsored and pays back later as they can. Regardless 75 bucks for an amazing four day conference is definitely a better deal than 5-20 for one day. We have shorter regional conferences as well that are lower in cost if that is what floats your boat. But I can say that nothing can beat the over one thousand attendance at the annual Socialism conferences and the sharing of experiences that takes place. I hope to see you there comrades

2nd April 2009, 17:34

About the cost of the conference we do fund raising and anyone who is not financially able to go is sponsored and pays back later as they can. Regardless 75 bucks for an amazing four day conference is definitely a better deal than 5-20 for one day. We have shorter regional conferences as well that are lower in cost if that is what floats your boat. But I can say that nothing can beat the over one thousand attendance at the annual Socialism conferences and the sharing of experiences that takes place. I hope to see you there comrades

I'm not financially able to go, but I'm not going to pay you back.

Leo

2nd April 2009, 17:45

But I can say that nothing can beat the over one thousand attendance at the annual Socialism conferences Well yeah, it means at least $75,000 in four days! It's five times the amount my whole family makes a year!

OriginalGumby

2nd April 2009, 17:47

I'm not financially able to go, but I'm not going to pay you back.

That's not too comradely of you now is it. ;)

Also we do raise some money for the organization this way. It is part of what gives us the funds to operate. Socialist organizations rely on donations and always have and we don't have the benefit of wealthy benefactors as some other organizations have. Raising money for the organizations effective operation is not shameful it is a reality of capitalism. Raising money from supporters of our politics whether at a conference or not is completely acceptable and a necessity.

OriginalGumby

2nd April 2009, 18:00

Well yeah, it means at least $75,000! It's five times the amount my whole family makes a year!

Its childish to claim that we get a shitload of money from these conferences. We certainly don't earn 75 grand as you assert. We literally rent out an entire hotel full of large conference rooms for four days and provide professional childcare for the whole event so people with families can go and we pay the entire cost of all of this. Most of the cost of attendance goes towards this.

I wish it was easier to have a great and active organization that is financially stable and present solid politics at a huge conference in a way that's less expensive. We live in a real world where we can not just conjure reality as we wish to see it into existence. This is how we deal with it.

Leo

2nd April 2009, 18:06

I am not unaware of the costs of organizing big conferences. Yet that is what dues and donations are for. Supposed socialists charging people money to enter a public political event is disgraceful.

Its childish to claim that we get a shitload of money from these conferences. We certainly don't earn 75 grand as you assert. Well, 75x1000=75,000 so...

BobKKKindle$

2nd April 2009, 18:16

We literally rent out an entire hotel

I'm a member of the SWP as you can see, and hence I agree with the ISO on most political questions, if not strategy, so I genuinely find it unfortunate that your organization charges such extortionate prices for an event that should be aimed at people who probably don't have much money to spend, particularly during an economic recession - workers and students. I don't understand why you need to rent out any part of a hotel, let alone an entire hotel - most of the Marxist conferences I've ever attended have been held at universities, and they've always been much cheaper than this. I wouldn't be able to attend a conference costing this much, especially when you account for food and transport costs.

I hope you know what you're doing, comrade, I really do. I can't imagine how hard it must be to organize in the US.

Socialist organizations rely on donations and always have

Really? I don't know how the ISO or any other party works, but I pay monthly subs. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that some of my subs go towards supporting Marxism (the SWP's yearly event) and I'd be perfectly happy to let that happen.

2nd April 2009, 18:30

That's not too comradely of you now is it.

I'd say it's not too comradely of you to try charging me $75.

Also we do raise some money for the organization this way. It is part of what gives us the funds to operate. Socialist organizations rely on donations and always have and we don't have the benefit of wealthy benefactors as some other organizations have. Raising money for the organizations effective operation is not shameful it is a reality of capitalism. Raising money from supporters of our politics whether at a conference or not is completely acceptable and a necessity.

First you claim that this is how you fundraise.

Its childish to claim that we get a shitload of money from these conferences. We certainly don't earn 75 grand as you assert. We literally rent out an entire hotel full of large conference rooms for four days and provide professional childcare for the whole event so people with families can go and we pay the entire cost of all of this. Most of the cost of attendance goes towards this.

Then you claim you don't get that much money.

Which is it? And why should I be forced to pay you $75 if I can't afford it or don't want to pay the ISO $75? What if I can only afford $20? What if I only want to pay $20? It's not a donation if you're requiring people to pay, you know. And $75 is just fucking ridiculous.

I'm a member of the SWP as you can see, and hence I agree with the ISO on most political questions, if not strategy, so I genuinely find it unfortunate that your organization charges such extortionate prices for an event that should be aimed at people who probably don't have much money to spend, particularly during an economic recession - workers and students. I don't understand why you need to rent out any part of a hotel, let alone an entire hotel - most of the Marxist conferences I've ever attended have been held at universities, and they've always been much cheaper than this. I wouldn't be able to attend a conference costing this much, especially when you account for food and transport costs.

I hope you know what you're doing, comrade, I really do. I can't imagine how hard it must be to organize in the US.

The point that you're making is perfectly valid, and it wouldn't be any harder for the ISO to do what the SWP does every year. The issue is that the ISO doesn't care to do it in such a way, for whatever reason.

OriginalGumby

2nd April 2009, 19:07

I don't know, maybe there is a better way to do it. All I can say is that we do pay dues and raise funds other ways and that money goes to a number of things including staffing, production, and some goes to the conference probably. We need this money to be active and as well organized as we are with a skeleton crew so reducing the money we raise would limit that. I don't know how much could be shaved off anyway.

As far as the facilities I am not sure that a university could support the size of the conference and it would definitely complicate things by spreading the event out across a campus. We do it on campuses for our annual smaller regional conferences but I think because of problems with housing, transportation in the city(mass transit cuts, urban sprawl), and the other things make it much easier to take over a hotel. Plus we all get to hang out each night because we are all in the same place. Maybe there is a better way but I trust we are making a good call for now.

OriginalGumby

2nd April 2009, 19:28

Clarifying that we raise some money but not a lot from the conferences. Its not so contradictory as you suggest..:rolleyes:

Maybe we shouldn't raise as much. Is it worth reducing the fee to 60 or whatever if it means firing one of our staffers that print our paper or one of our full time organizers? I don't know but I currently lean against because we have a huge presence on the left because of it. Haymarket Books has got it going on to say the least. Part of the problem is that we have to definitely cover the cost of the conference facilities and some speakers and may need some of that up front. If it is all donations than we don't have any idea what will happen, we may lose a shit ton of money and that is not acceptable. This has been a good discussion and I will raise it with some comrades in my branch.

Oh and twenty dollars will get you a day long event with four sessions total and over forty to choose from. That is a good deal I must say.

Solidarity

Random Precision

2nd April 2009, 20:33

A couple points about the entrance fee:

1. $75 is the ticket price for only people who can afford it. That's what it's talking about when it says "scholarship fund" in the OP. If you want to go but can't afford that, I suggest you get in touch with the ISO branch nearest you to see if you can get some or all of the cost defrayed, since many branches have fundraisers as well. At the very least you'll probably be able ride with some other people who're going, which deals with the transportation. KC, Kassad, Marmot, I'm talking to you.

2. No one has to go if they don't want to. I see a lot of people in this thread who aren't even from the US (and people who are) using this as an opportunity to score points on the ISO. If you aren't planning on going anyway, it's kind of silly to complain about how much it would cost you if you did, no?

3. Conferences cost a lot. These are the biggest in the United States. It takes a lot of resources to get locations. A university building may be big enough for a meeting of even five hundred people, like our regional conferences, but we're talking about thousands of people here. Not only that but we're holding *two* of them this summer, which is simply incredible in what it means for the whole American left.

4. You have to pay for speakers and all kinds of other things. Transportation is a big cost. Comrades in Britain, for instance, have no experience with doing what it takes to get thousands of people to one location in the US, which is a *very* big country.

5. This is totally leaving aside the money it takes to organize anything. The basic question of fundraising for our organization is how much we can afford to go into debt from week to week. Other organizations with less profile and fewer members don't have to worry about that so much.

That's all for now I think.

Random Precision

2nd April 2009, 20:59

And on ANSWER and the Nader campaign- I'll try to make this my last post on the matter, since I suspect there's not much I can do to convince Kassad of anything.

We think that when it comes to the Iraq war the best way to end it, quickly, is to build a broad united front around it that is independent of the Democrats. You can't start out any kind of real movement in this country with a laundry list of causes that everyone has to agree to- you have to focus on certain issues and build up to a broad anti-imperialist, anti-capitalist movement. It's great if you can find people who are up for Palestine solidarity as well, but most people who come to their first antiwar marches aren't like that. It's even better if you can find people who come to their first antiwar march already 100% Marxist, but even less people are like that. ANSWER may "let" other groups attend its marches, but that's no replacement for the broad, independent kind of leadership the antiwar movement needs. Also key to this is as I pointed out in my first post, ANSWER's leadership is completely dominated by PSL, and most of the groups in it are in fact front groups for PSL.

As for the Nader campaign, I don't have much more to say. It's very theoretically pure to swear off elections as bourgeois and not participate in them, or to run your own candidate who will only reach a handful of people. But there are some elections where we have an opportunity to reach thousands of people who are breaking with the capitalist two-party system, and the Nader campaign in 2000 and 2004 was where that was happening. The ISO has a principled stance here- if you can prove that we used our work in his campaign to do anything outside of promoting the case for a socialist alternative, you may reproach us for whatever that was.

Random Precision

3rd April 2009, 05:28

Donations are of course a different thing, but entrance fees?

Entrance fees are donations. But I suppose you might be forgiven for this error- you may not be familiar with the organization of political conferences which people outside your organization attend.

Random Precision

3rd April 2009, 05:36

I'm a member of the SWP as you can see, and hence I agree with the ISO on most political questions, if not strategy,

Funnily enough, one of the reasons the SWP had us kicked out of the tendency was that we didn't organize a national mobilization for Seattle during the WTO protests. Bringing comrades from the east coast to Seattle would be something like the SWP trying to do a mobilization for something in Moscow. I think this issue, the lack of understanding, is a bit analogous.

so I genuinely find it unfortunate that your organization charges such extortionate prices for an event that should be aimed at people who probably don't have much money to spend, particularly during an economic recession - workers and students. I don't understand why you need to rent out any part of a hotel, let alone an entire hotel - most of the Marxist conferences I've ever attended have been held at universities, and they've always been much cheaper than this.

Addressed above.

I wouldn't be able to attend a conference costing this much, especially when you account for food and transport costs.

Food is mostly taken care of at the conference, and transport is taken care of as well by the individual branches.

Asoka89

3rd April 2009, 21:31

There was a bunch of different issues that led to the ISO, SWP divide. I am not a member of either, but I am close to the ISO policy wise. They release great clear-headed publications and Socialism events are the envy of the rest of the US left in terms of size and speakers.

I wont be able to come im in New York and broke, the ISO can be sectarian sometimes, but they aren't bad as far as Trot sects go and have a bunch of intelligent, prominent members.

OriginalGumby

4th April 2009, 00:12

http://socialismconference.org/video.php

Now that I can post links here is a link to videos of socialism 2009 speakers from previous events. We just got the brochures for the event and there are easily over one hundred sessions. Here are a bunch to choose from.

The Rise and Fall of Radical Reconstruction
History of the US Communism
History of American Trotskyism
Leonard Peltier's Struggle for Justice
An Injury to All: The Wobblies
The 1934 Strikes that Turned the Tide
Marxism and Trade Unions
The Struggles for Union Democracy Today
Class Traitor or Capitalism's Savior?: Roosevelt and the New Deal
Economic Crisis: How Bad Will it Get?
The Origins of Capitalism
Explaining the Labor Theory of Value
Stonewall:Birth of Gay Power
How Can Women Be Liberated
Lenin's State and Revolution
Trotsky on Fascism
Do Revolutions Always End in Dictatorship?
Should the Means Prefigure the Ends?
Are Political Parties Necessary?
Can Students Change Society?
Karl Marx and the Civil War
Class, Race, and the Civil Rights Movement
US Imperialism in Latin America
Venezuela: The Bolivarian Revolution Under Siege
Abraham Lincoln and the Abolitionists
Che Guevara
Emiliano Zapata and the Mexican Revolution
One State, Two States: How Can Palestinian Liberation Be Achieved?
Class Struggles in Egypt
Zionism: Myth and Reality
Trading in Pollution: Environmental Destruction & the Fallacy of Market Solutions
The Global Food Crisis
The New Party in France
Class Struggles in Greece
The Emerging Workers' Movement in China
African Socialism
Marxism, Nationalism, and Third Worldism
Anarchism Today
Two Souls of Socialism
How Are Revolutionary Parties Built?
The Real Lenin
From Degenerated Workers' State to a New Class Society: Theories of Stalin's Russia
The Politics of Hip Hop
Johnny Cash: The Man in Black
Darwin and Marx
The Myth of Humanitarian Intervention
Afghanistan Today
The Economic Crisis and the New Imperialism
Why the Antiwar Movement Should Be Anti-Imperialist

OriginalGumby

4th April 2009, 09:28

http://socialismconference.org/video.php (http://www.anonym.to/?http://socialismconference.org/video.php)

Now that I can post links here is a link to videos of socialism 2009 speakers from previous events. We just got the brochures for the event and there are easily over one hundred sessions. Here are a bunch to choose from.

The Rise and Fall of Radical Reconstruction
History of the US Communism
History of American Trotskyism
Leonard Peltier's Struggle for Justice
An Injury to All: The Wobblies
The 1934 Strikes that Turned the Tide
Marxism and Trade Unions
The Struggles for Union Democracy Today
Class Traitor or Capitalism's Savior?: Roosevelt and the New Deal
Economic Crisis: How Bad Will it Get?
The Origins of Capitalism
Explaining the Labor Theory of Value
Stonewall:Birth of Gay Power
How Can Women Be Liberated
Lenin's State and Revolution
Trotsky on Fascism
Do Revolutions Always End in Dictatorship?
Should the Means Prefigure the Ends?
Are Political Parties Necessary?
Can Students Change Society?
Karl Marx and the Civil War
Class, Race, and the Civil Rights Movement
US Imperialism in Latin America
Venezuela: The Bolivarian Revolution Under Siege
Abraham Lincoln and the Abolitionists
Che Guevara
Emiliano Zapata and the Mexican Revolution
One State, Two States: How Can Palestinian Liberation Be Achieved?
Class Struggles in Egypt
Zionism: Myth and Reality
Trading in Pollution: Environmental Destruction & the Fallacy of Market Solutions
The Global Food Crisis
The New Party in France
Class Struggles in Greece
The Emerging Workers' Movement in China
African Socialism
Marxism, Nationalism, and Third Worldism
Anarchism Today
Two Souls of Socialism
How Are Revolutionary Parties Built?
The Real Lenin
From Degenerated Workers' State to a New Class Society: Theories of Stalin's Russia
The Politics of Hip Hop
Johnny Cash: The Man in Black
Darwin and Marx
The Myth of Humanitarian Intervention
Afghanistan Today
The Economic Crisis and the New Imperialism
Why the Antiwar Movement Should Be Anti-Imperialist

Leo

5th April 2009, 08:55

Entrance fees are donations.

It isn't a donation if you have to pay in order to enter, it is a price.

But I suppose you might be forgiven for this error- you may not be familiar with the organization of political conferences which people outside your organization attend.

We are doing fine thank you and without running a business over our meetings, conferences, day schools and so forth.

Random Precision

5th April 2009, 18:56

It isn't a donation if you have to pay in order to enter, it is a price.

Can you read? I already said that we have a scholarship fund, and hold other fundraisers so people who can't afford a $75 donation won't have to give one.

We are doing fine thank you and without running a business over our meetings, conferences, day schools and so forth.
:laugh:

Yes, we're making such a profit. It's great that everyone on this forum now won't be deluded into attending the ISO's money-making scheme, since we've got a wise Turkish left-communist to point out to us how organizing in the United States should really be done.

Kind of reminds me of the best anarchist critique I ever heard of our paper-selling. "The people who sell Socialist Worker aren't paid for it, all the money goes to the full-timers... The ISO is exploiting their volunteers' labor!"

Leo

5th April 2009, 21:35

Can you read? I already said that we have a scholarship fund, and hold other fundraisers so people who can't afford a $75 donation won't have to give one.

And who "qualifies" for this scholarship? Will a random dude who comes and says he wants to come in but doesn't have money be able to do it? When KC asked what would happen if he only had twenty dollars. The response was this: "Oh and twenty dollars will get you a day long event with four sessions total and over forty to choose from. That is a good deal I must say." Again the same poster said: "Is it worth reducing the fee to 60 or whatever if it means firing one of our staffers that print our paper or one of our full time organizers?"

This isn't a donation, it is an entrance fee, a price.

Yes, we're making such a profit. It's great that everyone on this forum now won't be deluded into attending the ISO's money-making scheme, since we've got a wise Turkish left-communist to point out to us how organizing in the United States should really be done.

Oh right, stupid middle easterners should just shut up when they see people calling themselves "socialists" defend outrageous and disgraceful business-like practices. Only Americans are worthy of commenting on the activities of the ISO!

Random Precision

5th April 2009, 22:12

And who "qualifies" for this scholarship? Will a random dude who comes and says he wants to come in but doesn't have money be able to do it?

Probably.

When KC asked what would happen if he only had twenty dollars. The response was this: "Oh and twenty dollars will get you a day long event with four sessions total and over forty to choose from. That is a good deal I must say." Again the same poster said: [I]"Is it worth reducing the fee to 60 or whatever if it means firing one of our staffers that print our paper or one of our full time organizers?"

And I'm saying that if you approached an ISO branch and said that you'd like to come but didn't have enough money, they would take money from the scholarship fund and branch fundraisers to cover the cost.

Besides, you wouldn't want to come to Socialism even if you lived in the US. As I said, you're just scoring points.

This isn't a donation, it is an entrance fee, a price.

If you can't pay it, you don't have to. That's what's called a "donation", at least where I live.

Oh right, stupid middle easterners should just shut up when they see people calling themselves "socialists" defend outrageous and disgraceful business-like practices. Only Americans are worthy of commenting on the activities of the ISO!

Your organization is tiny and works in Turkey. Ours has thousands of members and works in the United States. I would not tell you how to organize a political conference, since I have no idea of how much money you would need to do it, and have no idea about other considerations you'd need to deal with.

Whereas you, not living in the United States nor knowing anything about our organization besides perhaps a cursory knowledge of our political line (i.e., not knowing about our organizational methods nor our finances nor any of the other considerations that we have to deal with when organizing a nationwide conference), just latch onto the figure of $75 and immediately accuse us of running our organization like a business, bypassing the assurances of those with knowledge about the matter (me) that we are in fact in debt up to our eyeballs. And if $75,000 is all we're making from a nationwide conference, as a business I'd expect us to be filing for bankruptcy about now.

What I call that is ignorance.

kong

5th April 2009, 23:44

An Injury to All: The Wobblies

is this intentional?

http://socialismconference.org/video.php (http://www.anonym.to/?http://socialismconference.org/video.php)

Now that I can post links here is a link to videos of socialism 2009 speakers from previous events. We just got the brochures for the event and there are easily over one hundred sessions. Here are a bunch to choose from.

The Rise and Fall of Radical Reconstruction
History of the US Communism
History of American Trotskyism
Leonard Peltier's Struggle for Justice
An Injury to All: The Wobblies
The 1934 Strikes that Turned the Tide
Marxism and Trade Unions
The Struggles for Union Democracy Today
Class Traitor or Capitalism's Savior?: Roosevelt and the New Deal
Economic Crisis: How Bad Will it Get?
The Origins of Capitalism
Explaining the Labor Theory of Value
Stonewall:Birth of Gay Power
How Can Women Be Liberated
Lenin's State and Revolution
Trotsky on Fascism
Do Revolutions Always End in Dictatorship?
Should the Means Prefigure the Ends?
Are Political Parties Necessary?
Can Students Change Society?
Karl Marx and the Civil War
Class, Race, and the Civil Rights Movement
US Imperialism in Latin America
Venezuela: The Bolivarian Revolution Under Siege
Abraham Lincoln and the Abolitionists
Che Guevara
Emiliano Zapata and the Mexican Revolution
One State, Two States: How Can Palestinian Liberation Be Achieved?
Class Struggles in Egypt
Zionism: Myth and Reality
Trading in Pollution: Environmental Destruction & the Fallacy of Market Solutions
The Global Food Crisis
The New Party in France
Class Struggles in Greece
The Emerging Workers' Movement in China
African Socialism
Marxism, Nationalism, and Third Worldism
Anarchism Today
Two Souls of Socialism
How Are Revolutionary Parties Built?
The Real Lenin
From Degenerated Workers' State to a New Class Society: Theories of Stalin's Russia
The Politics of Hip Hop
Johnny Cash: The Man in Black
Darwin and Marx
The Myth of Humanitarian Intervention
Afghanistan Today
The Economic Crisis and the New Imperialism
Why the Antiwar Movement Should Be Anti-Imperialist

Random Precision

5th April 2009, 23:56

An Injury to All: The Wobblies

is this intentional?

What's the problem with it?

OriginalGumby

6th April 2009, 03:24

Re:kong Its just a short version of the actually slogan, 'An injury to one is an injury to all'

This is absurd, if you don't want to come no one is forcing anyone to. We really do need what little we raise from the conference and attendance and payment together are completely voluntary. I'm sick of ignorant fools accusing us of running a fucking ponzi scheme or something. We didn't grow to become the largest revolutionary socialist group in the US by ripping people off. Maybe some of you could accept the possibility that we know what we are doing.

Regarding the comments to KC for 20 dollars that the best bit of conference available at that price. That doesn't mean that if someone came to a branch or to the place with only that we say tough luck. But for him he is not really interested in coming. I offered to make it easier for him but he pretty much said that if we fronted him the registration cost he would just rip off our branch members soooooo fuck that.

Lastly semantics aside. The money goes to good use and is needed. I don't give a shit what you call it donation, entrance fee, price, whatever. It supports the best political conference in the US and the organization that builds them to be better every year.

OriginalGumby

6th April 2009, 03:26

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnUCdkgyBS8
Here is the promotional video.

6th April 2009, 04:20

May I ask the ISO members here that, if all their arguments to explain their rich-communists-only policy are valid, why is it that the PSL's three conferences ask for only about a quarter the amount the ISO is asking for, as a donation, while making it explicit that its only a requested donation and no one would be turned away for not paying?

6th April 2009, 04:22

And who "qualifies" for this scholarship? Will a random dude who comes and says he wants to come in but doesn't have money be able to do it? When KC asked what would happen if he only had twenty dollars. The response was this: "Oh and twenty dollars will get you a day long event with four sessions total and over forty to choose from. That is a good deal I must say." Again the same poster said: "Is it worth reducing the fee to 60 or whatever if it means firing one of our staffers that print our paper or one of our full time organizers?"Actually the response I originally received was that someone would loan me the money and that I could pay it back, which is what upset me in the first place. It's absolutely ridiculous to expect someone to pay $75 for a socialist organization's conference.

However, RP later clarified that one could actually be funded by an ISO branch without having to reimburse them, which I think is fair, regardless of how wrong it is to advertise a price of $75. Here's the original response by Gumby:

About the cost of the conference we do fund raising and anyone who is not financially able to go is sponsored and pays back later as they can.
Oh right, stupid middle easterners should just shut up when they see people calling themselves "socialists" defend outrageous and disgraceful business-like practices. Only Americans are worthy of commenting on the activities of the ISO!Get off the cross, for fucks sake! This is the second or third time I can remember recently that you've pulled this card inappropriately and it's incredibly opportunistic and pitiful.

Your organization is tiny and works in Turkey. Ours has thousands of members and works in the United States.Your organization is equally as irrelevant as the ICC, so I wouldn't be bragging about how many student members you have. Now you're just trying to score points. Get over yourself.

Regarding the comments to KC for 20 dollars that the best bit of conference available at that price. That doesn't mean that if someone came to a branch or to the place with only that we say tough luck. But for him he is not really interested in coming.Actually, I'm now considering going, after RP clarified the position on financing that you offered an absolutely terrible and incorrect response to. So really, just cut the crap.

I offered to make it easier for him but he pretty much said that if we fronted him the registration cost he would just rip off our branch members soooooo fuck that.That's fucking bullshit. I was criticizing the fact that your original comment implied that I would have to pay $75 to go, and that if I was financed by a local branch that I would have to pay it back "as I can". If that was the case then it would be absolutely fucking ridiculous and I would never have even considered going. Thankfully RP was kind enough to clarify about how you were wrong.

And you accuse me of wanting to rip you off? That's fucking low.

OriginalGumby

6th April 2009, 05:28

KC: I'm sorry man. I went back and looked at what you said and it was not you proclaiming to rip us off. That was seriously my bad. About the financing branches raise money in various was and have some to support people in financial need. If that is you we can work something out. Usually we do not get that much money to sponsor people to go at a discount and usually what we have done was to lend people personal money from other comrades. Some branches have some money but it is not a lot. You have to contact the individual branch.

TC: For starters PSLs three conferences are day long events with a much lower number of speakers many of which are members of the organization and don't require compensation. We have smaller regional conferences in the fall that are closer in cost to the PSLs regional conferences but last a weekend and have more sessions. Our much larger conferences are four days long and have and much larger number of speakers some we fly in from other countries. If we just took donations we could not guarantee our ability to pay the cost of hosting the event and the quality would suffer.

Random Precision

6th April 2009, 05:32

May I ask the ISO members here that, if all their arguments to explain their rich-communists-only policy

Learn to read.

are valid, why is it that the PSL's three conferences ask for only about a quarter the amount the ISO is asking for, as a donation, while making it explicit that its only a requested donation and no one would be turned away for not paying?

How many speakers is the PSL having at their conferences? How far do they have to transport people? How many people does the PSL expect to come to their conferences? What kind of facilities are they arranging for? These are all considerations where I expect the PSL is in a different position than the ISO.

Also, as to your earlier comment about the SWP's Marxism conference, well looking at its website (http://www.marxismfestival.org.uk/), we can see that they charge £45, and £5 for a concert that wraps up the conference. Going by my trusty internet currency converter, that's not much less than what we're doing for Socialism.

Random Precision

6th April 2009, 05:35

KC, fair enough. :)

6th April 2009, 15:44

Did the ISO ever approach any other organizations regarding helping out in organizing this conference?

Leo

6th April 2009, 17:30

And I'm saying that if you approached an ISO branch and said that you'd like to come but didn't have enough money, they would take money from the scholarship fund and branch fundraisers to cover the cost.OK, so one has to contact a branch...

Besides, you wouldn't want to come to Socialism even if you lived in the US. As I said, you're just scoring points.I go to lots of different meetings and would probably go to your meeting at least for a few hours if you held them in the town where I lived, of course I would only go to ones that don't charge people for discussion.

If you can't pay it, you don't have to. That's what's called a "donation", at least where I live.All this about if one can't pay they don't have sounds quite dodgy still, due to what the other fella from your organization has said about $20 deals and all. I am doubtful about how many people get these scholarships, and how well does the branch has to know the person, how much one has to be politically interested and so forth.

Your organization is tiny and works in Turkey. My organization is an international organization and it operates in 16 countries, including the US. This of course does not negate the fact that it is tiny but this has got nothing to do with it. I have also lived in the US for a year. Still all this is irrelevant and neither where I am from nor where my organization operates in has got nothing to do with the criticism I am putting forward. Other organizations I know, including a cliffite organization which has (unsurprisingly) horribly bourgeois and liberal politics which claims a similar number to the one you are claiming, and which organizes a similar conference does not charge people money for it at all. By the way, to correct an error in your last post, I am not turkish, I am kurdish.

Get off the cross, for fucks sake! This is the second or third time I can remember recently that you've pulled this card inappropriately and it's incredibly opportunistic and pitiful.So it is completely fair for someone to tell me not to comment on something because I am not from the US and not fair at all when I ask about it. Superb.

Ours has thousands of members and works in the United States. I would not tell you how to organize a political conference, since I have no idea of how much money you would need to do it,This isn't a matter of practicality, it is a matter of principle.

Jimmie Higgins

6th April 2009, 17:36

This discussion is straight ridiculous.

This is a conference for over 1000 people. I work at a hotel and we charge 10,000 for for wedding receptions that are one day in one ballroom for 250 people. Now imagine the price for 3 days with many conference rooms and ballrooms big enough to hold more than 500 people.

So the ISO should just wait until it has a large enough membership that taking $100,000 out of dues is no problem? Comrades, be serious.

If someone was working with the ISO on activism or had been seriously thinking about joining, but didn't have them money, that money would be raised by dues or passing the hat. Regular ISO events including ones with speakers from other parts of the country are free and when I was in a campus ISO branch we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get money from the University for our events so that the burdon would be taken off of our members and allies. The conference is a big event - when any of the hayters here have a free event for 3 days for 800 people in a hotel in NY, SF or CHI, let me know their financial secret.

I just went to an Anarchist bookfair where I tabled for an left-wing zine organization I co-founded and guess what, tables were $125 a day! Holy crap, what kind of anarchists are you? You should just buy my entire backstock of zines and then pay me $10/hr for my time working at the bookfair, I would have screamed if I took the same attitude displayed by some of the comrades here. Instead I saved money and paid the price because it was worth it for me to talk with fellow radicals, try and dispell some anarchist stereotypes of reds, and support something that is helping to build radicalism in the US (even though, I certaintly don't agree with all the politics represented by other vendors or the organizers).

The ISO is trying to build its organization and this is a high profile event with speakers from all kinds of organizations as well as vendors from allied radical publishers and organizations (i.e. probably no Spart tables inside utill they stop disrupting other group's events). But this is not a coalition event - the political perspective is distinctly ISO. I hope soon there will also be larger conferences from other induvidual groups and someday huge Global Forum type meetings by coalitions of Left groups on a more regular basis, but the ISO's Socialist Conference is not trying to be that.

6th April 2009, 17:54

So it is completely fair for someone to tell me not to comment on something because I am not from the US and not fair at all when I ask about it. Superb.That's irrelevant to the fact that you played the "poor brown people" card, basically accusing RP of racism when you very well knew that that's not what he meant. I highly doubt that you have extensive knowledge of how the ISO works, so his comment to you was valid, regardless of whether or not it was correct.

This is a conference for over 1000 people. I work at a hotel and we charge 10,000 for for wedding receptions that are one day in one ballroom for 250 people. Now imagine the price for 3 days with many conference rooms and ballrooms big enough to hold more than 500 people.

So the ISO should just wait until it has a large enough membership that taking $100,000 out of dues is no problem? Comrades, be serious.

If someone was working with the ISO on activism or had been seriously thinking about joining, but didn't have them money, that money would be raised by dues or passing the hat. Regular ISO events including ones with speakers from other parts of the country are free and when I was in a campus ISO branch we spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to get money from the University for our events so that the burdon would be taken off of our members and allies. The conference is a big event - when any of the hayters here have a free event for 3 days for 800 people in a hotel in NY, SF or CHI, let me know their financial secret.I think that the entrance fee could have been reduced if this was coordinated with a wider body of organizers than just the ISO. I also think that advertising it as costing $75, i.e. as an entrance fee and not offering any alternatives for low-income workers/students/etc... on the site (http://socialismconference.org/register.php) or probably elsewhere is deceitful.

Jimmie Higgins

6th April 2009, 18:24

I hope that the ISO and other groups will begin to put on even larger conferences by joining their forces and resources - having more events with open political discussion and debates among lefties in this period of crisis for capitalism is a great idea. But, again, this is an ISO event designed to promote the ISO's take on politics. The ISO doesn't have Socialist Alternative editors in the ISO newspaper even though the politics might be close and often the groups work together in coalitions. It may reprint an article from other organizations or people like Chomsky, but the paper is designed to present the ISO take on current events. Haymarket books on the other hand does have non ISO members on the editorial board and prints things from a variety of political backgrounds, because it isn't a party press, it's a left-wing publisher. Similarly, the ISO would probably be more than happy to join in a coalition to put on a huge multi-group/tendency left-wing event, but the ISO's conference is not it.

The ISO does not make any money from this and had significant debt coming out of some of the conferences. I believe that this quibbling over the price is more about distrust of the organization rather than the price itself.

The $75 price listed is not disingenuous - that's the ticket price! It would be disingenuous to advertise "$75 donation, but if you know people in a branch, maybe you can get them to raise the funds for you if you seem sincerely interested and genuinely short of funds or are participating in a strike or movement with ISO members".

As someone who works in service jobs and has traveled from California to Chicago for these conferences, the ticket price has always been the least of the financial difficulty. Plane flights are the worst part, so one could just as easily argue that the ISO isn't anti-workers as much as it is Anti-Non Midwesterners (although this year there is a west as well as an east coast conference in order to try and make the travel difficulties less severe) is one were so inclined to be a dumbass. So guess what, in the past I have had comrades help pay my flight costs and I have slept on Chicago comrade's couches.

Other years I simply made a plan a few months in advance and saved the money - often I would have money to help pay for other people and many years I came back and got the money together to pay capitalists for tickets for the Cochella music festival a month or 2 later. It's all do-able if you think it's worth it and to me the ISO conference has always been interesting with great debates both among members and between people of other political views - and I got to meet John Carlos from the 68 Olympics to boot! Also, sometimes saving even more money to see a music festial is also worth it.

I believe most of the complaints on this thread have more to do with a dislike/distruct of the ISO than the costs and so on.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carlos)

6th April 2009, 20:29

But, again, this is an ISO event designed to promote the ISO's take on politics.

And why should it not be organized by a wider array of leftists, and designed to promote organization and cooperation in a period of crisis where such organization and cooperation is needed, as opposed to the same old politics that have plagued the left in the US for the past 80 years?

And what is wrong with presenting a multitude of views, and opening up comradely and productive discussion on such issues, as opposed to restricting such discussion by confining an event to the politics of one organization and its supporters?

What exactly do you think this accomplishes?

The ISO does not make any money from this and had significant debt coming out of some of the conferences. I believe that this quibbling over the price is more about distrust of the organization rather than the price itself.

I can't speak for anyone else here, but my criticism of the price tag has everything to do with affordability and nothing to do with something as petty as "distrust". In fact, I don't see how that would even be relevant.

The $75 price listed is not disingenuous - that's the ticket price! It would be disingenuous to advertise "$75 donation, but if you know people in a branch, maybe you can get them to raise the funds for you if you seem sincerely interested and genuinely short of funds or are participating in a strike or movement with ISO members".

Really? It would be disingenuous to advertise the actual situation? You want to hide the fact that people who can't afford the exorbitant price tag can receive funding from local branches? Why on earth would you want to do that? To me that sounds like the distrust lies not in those criticizing the ISO, but rather certain ISO members themselves, yourself included. It seems to me that people that hold such distrust such as yourself are more concerned with maintaining the status quo of sectism than opening up discussion due to a lack of trust of non-ISO members.

So guess what, in the past I have had comrades help pay my flight costs and I have slept on Chicago comrade's couches.

Yes, but such a secret must only be maintained for ISO members, or for those prying enough to demand such accommodations, as you yourself asserted above.

I believe most of the complaints on this thread have more to do with a dislike/distruct of the ISO than the costs and so on.

I believe your assertion here has more to do with the fact that you can't handle the criticisms raised here without resorting to petty appeals to organizational disputes.

The criticism of the $75 price tag was and is certainly valid, and I find it highly suspect that there is no mention on the registration site about how to get into contact with a local branch for those that can't afford it or for those seeking cheaper accommodations, such as finding someone's house to stay at, for example.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Carlos)

Leo

6th April 2009, 20:30

That's irrelevant to the fact that you played the "poor brown people" card, basically accusing RP of racism when you very well knew that that's not what he meant.

What he meant was that someone not in the US, someone from turkey can't criticize his organizations practices.

basically accusing RP of racism when you very well knew that that's not what he meant.

I don't actually. I didn't accuse RP of racism and don't know if he has such tendencies, but several people on Revleft do have racist or chauvinist tendencies against middle easterners and I am a bit sick of all that.

I highly doubt that you have extensive knowledge of how the ISO works

Which has got nothing to do with the point I am making. I don't have to have an extensive knowledge of how the ISO works to comment on this.

6th April 2009, 20:45

Leo, let's look at what you were responding to with your comment:

Yes, we're making such a profit. It's great that everyone on this forum now won't be deluded into attending the ISO's money-making scheme, since we've got a wise Turkish left-communist to point out to us how organizing in the United States should really be done.

Oh right, stupid middle easterners should just shut up when they see people calling themselves "socialists" defend outrageous and disgraceful business-like practices. Only Americans are worthy of commenting on the activities of the ISO!

He was quite obviously saying that you are so far away from the ISO's activities that there is no way that you could know how the details behind the logistics or the organizational practices of the organization, as you cannot really deduce that from what you read on the internet.

You then went on to claim that he was saying that you were a "stupid Middle Easterner" that wasn't allowed to respond to the situation because of that fact. It's blatantly obvious that you were playing the "stupid brown people" card in a situation where nobody was even implying anything about race except yourself.

I agree with you that people on this site hold racist/chauvinist/Orientalist beliefs, and am equally as opposed to them as you. But I am also opposed to when someone nails themselves to a cross by crying racism/chauvinism when that issue was never even raised. It shows that you are either too ignorant to realize that this wasn't the case or are too dishonest to admit it.

Which has got nothing to do with the point I am making. I don't have to have an extensive knowledge of how the ISO works to comment on this.

Which is irrelevant to the point I am making, as I have already said.

I'm not going to comment on this anymore, though; if RP wants to continue it he can.

Random Precision

6th April 2009, 21:48

Other organizations I know, including a cliffite organization which has (unsurprisingly) horribly bourgeois and liberal politics

I imagine this is the extent of your "knowledge" about the ISO.

which claims a similar number to the one you are claiming, and which organizes a similar conference does not charge people money for it at all.

I'm not familiar with the group you're referring to. But I imagine that they would have different considerations in getting speakers, the number of people they expect to attend, renting locations for the conference, transporting people, etc.

By the way, to correct an error in your last post, I am not turkish, I am kurdish.

Sorry.

This isn't a matter of practicality, it is a matter of principle.

So we should just not have a conference, or not try to make it into a big event if it ends up costing people any money, according to you. Well, being more familiar with the ISO than you are, I disagree.

As for the race thing, it's pretty obvious to anyone who has posted here for long that you make reference to your race, location in the world and poverty quite a bit, mostly in debates about national liberation. In fact you've used it twice in this one thread, referring to your supposed amount of money we're making out of Socialism as "five times the amount my whole family makes a year", then painting my response to you as being that "Oh right, stupid middle easterners should just shut up" while I was only trying to say that, living in Turkey and having no experience with our organization, knowing nothing about the conference or its logistics, you are in no position to be accusing us of running a business or anything else.

I don't have to have an extensive knowledge of how the ISO works to comment on this.

No. But if you expect those comments to be taken seriously, you probably should know something more about our organization and about activism in the United States.

7th April 2009, 02:03

RP, could you please address the questions I raised above?

Leo

7th April 2009, 21:17

He was quite obviously saying that you are so far away from the ISO's activities that there is no way that you could know how the details behind the logistics or the organizational practices of the organization, as you cannot really deduce that from what you read on the internet.

No this was what he was saying: "since we've got a wise Turkish left-communist to point out to us how organizing in the United States should really be done."

I don't think he was "obviously" saying what you interpreted at all.

I imagine this is the extent of your "knowledge" about the ISO.

Well I don't know, these people were talking about how wonderful it was that Obama was elected, and how the American people who voted for him acted on with anti-capitalist consciousness and how this was a wonderful moment of history that they... almost called Obama a socialist, and would have if several shocked attenders expressed their opinions... and their meeting was allegedly going to be about war and crisis.

I know that the ISO is working with the green party and all which is bad enough itself but not as shocking a position. Now you can feel free to go on about my "petty sectarian insults" etc.

I'm not familiar with the group you're referring to. But I imagine that they would have different considerations in getting speakers, the number of people they expect to attend, renting locations for the conference, transporting people, etc.

No they are a group that claims as much members as your group does thus I would imagine they expected a similar turnout and had some pretty famous people, celebrities, bourgeois intellectuals, several of them from different countries, and so forth coming to their meeting which itself was held in quite a fancy place.

So we should just not have a conference, or not try to make it into a big event if it ends up costing people any money, according to you.

No, you should cover the costs as an organization, and in case of financial burdens ask for donations as donations, not entrance fees to your conferences as "donations".

In fact you've used it twice in this one thread, referring to your supposed amount of money we're making out of Socialism as "five times the amount my whole family makes a year",

Well it's actually more than five times the amount my whole family makes a year but anyway...

I was only trying to say that, living in Turkey and having no experience with our organization, knowing nothing about the conference or its logistics

Well, what you said was that living in Turkey I had no say on organizing in the US.

you are in no position to be accusing us of running a business or anything else

I'm sorry mate, but any organization that charges that much money from people for coming to discussions clearly is running a business, and this has got nothing to do with any personal feelings I've got against you or the politics of your organization. There are lots of organizations whose politics I am against as much as yours, but so-called "socialists" doing something as shocking as this is simply disgraceful.

But if you expect those comments to be taken seriously, you probably should know something more about our organization and about activism in the United States.

I know enough about the far left scene in the US. Besides people living in the US themselves have commented on how outrageous this price is themselves.

Random Precision

7th April 2009, 22:18

No this was what he was saying: "since we've got a wise Turkish left-communist to point out to us how organizing in the United States should really be done."

I don't think he was "obviously" saying what you interpreted at all.

KC is correct.

Well I don't know, these people were talking about how wonderful it was that Obama was elected,

No.

and how the American people who voted for him acted on with anti-capitalist consciousness

No.

and how this was a wonderful moment of history that they

No.

... almost called Obama a socialist,

Well, since we "almost" called him a socialist I suppose you don't have to provide evidence for it.

and would have if several shocked attenders expressed their opinions... and their meeting was allegedly going to be about war and crisis.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

I know that the ISO is working with the green party and all which is bad enough itself but not as shocking a position.

At least get your facts straight. We were working with the Green Party during the 2000 and 2004 elections. Not during the 2008 elections, and not now.

Now you can feel free to go on about my "petty sectarian insults" etc.

I am not in the same movement as you are, so it would be pretty silly to accuse you of being sectarian.

No they are a group that claims as much members as your group does thus I would imagine they expected a similar turnout and had some pretty famous people, celebrities, bourgeois intellectuals, several of them from different countries, and so forth coming to their meeting which itself was held in quite a fancy place.

I don't care about superficial similarities, especially considering you haven't even named the group you're talking about.

No, you should cover the costs as an organization, and in case of financial burdens ask for donations as donations, not entrance fees to your conferences as "donations".

That's a legitimate criticism, unlike your other ones.

Well it's actually more than five times the amount my whole family makes a year but anyway...

Yes, which is irrelevant since we're not making any money at all from the conference.

Well, what you said was that living in Turkey I had no say on organizing in the US.

No, what I said is that we're not running a business, and it's unfair to accuse us of running our organization like a business without having knowledge about what we do to organize the conferences.

I'm sorry mate, but any organization that charges that much money from people for coming to discussions clearly is running a business

As I said: if we were a business, we would have filed for bankruptcy long ago.

I know enough about the far left scene in the US. Besides people living in the US themselves have commented on how outrageous this price is themselves.

None of them accused us of running a business though, perhaps because they have knowledge of what it takes to organize in this country.

Random Precision

7th April 2009, 22:20

KC: I think you have some legitimate criticisms which it would be good to bring up at the conference if you're able to attend. If I can come, I'll try to do the same- but my summer job may not permit me.

Jimmie Higgins

8th April 2009, 01:34

This argument is childish and completely a-political. If the conference were free, comrades here would complain: "how dare the ISO leadership waste all that dues money on a conference! How did they get that money anyway? The must be using drug-money!".

The conference is expensive - check out business conferences online, they are even more expensive because it's expensive to rent out a huge hotel for several days. A wedding reception runs a minimum of about $20,000: that's one afternoon and 100 people. Now multiply that by 3 day and 10 times the number of guests. Then you'll get an idea of what the costs are like.

Again, this is not gone into lightly. ISO branches spend months gearing up for the trip and doing yard sales and so on to raise money for people who can't afford it. Our organization has lost money in the past because of the conferences. Any charges about running a "business" is ridiculous.

This debate is like the drunk right-wingers who come up to socialists selling newspapers and say: "But you're socialist, it should be free."

And I always say, "When the print-shops are run by workers and the landloards are kicked out, then we can print these papers for free".

The ticket price isn't the real issue, just like the drunk doesn't really want to read the radical paper -- he just wants the argument.

8th April 2009, 15:32

The ticket price isn't the real issue

I disagree. Disregarding Leo's opportunism displayed in this thread, there are some very real and relevant issues to be discussed, which I have brought up as legitimate criticisms. From what RP has said, he agrees with my concerns. What is your position on these issues? Perhaps you can respond to me about these.

Leo

8th April 2009, 21:57

Well, since we "almost" called him a socialist I suppose you don't have to provide evidence for it.
I have no idea what you're talking about.I am not talking about your group, I was explaining why I called the politics of the turkish cliffite group I was referring to obviously bourgeois and liberal.

At least get your facts straight. We were working with the Green Party during the 2000 and 2004 elections. Not during the 2008 elections, and not now.Apologies, was working with them. It doesn't make any difference in the way I judge your group.

I don't care about superficial similarities, especially considering you haven't even named the group you're talking about.It is called Revolutionary Socialist Workers Party (Devrimci Sosyalist İşçi Partisi). Here's their website, which is all in turkish: http://www.dsip.org.tr/

They did their Marxism2008 thing twice that year, once in May and once in December, in around five different cities each time. Chris Harman was among their international guests in the first one and they brought another person from England and people from Germany and Greece. Among their local guests, there were MPs, trade-union chairmans, famous pop stars, famous academicians and famos columnists from mainstream newspapers and so forth. They did not charge people any money. They hosted visiors from different cities the houses of their people. The original website of their meeting is no longer valid but my exact info on the details of their event is based on http://sozluk.sourtimes.org/show.asp?t=marksizm+2008 Now this is, as it is obvious from the guest list of their event as well as their politics, a very problematic organization which we regard as liberals, a bourgeois organization. Needless to say, their politics piss me off more than those of the ISO. Yet they did not demand people to pay entrance fees to get into their conferance.

None of them accused us of running a business though, perhaps because they have knowledge of what it takes to organize in this country.So do I. And based on this at least one of them accused you numerous times of being an organization for bourgeois kids basically.

Jimmie Higgins

8th April 2009, 22:45

Yes, I agree, your concerns seem to not be about having some other axe to grind.

If other groups co-built the event would it be cheeper? Possibly, but it would hopefully also be bigger than and ISO-alone event is, so costs would go up accordingly and probably end up being about the same anyway.

As I said in an earlier post, I hope that there can be some Social forum type events developed from several groups working together. That being said, the ISO conference is not designed to represent all shades of red and black. Just as the ISO newspaper is designed to present the ISO's position, this conference is to present the ISO's position on what has happened in the last year and where the organization sees it heading in the next year. The conference invites other speakers who are not members or even politically aligned with the ISO for constructive political discussions and debates, but that's not the same as having liberals or ex-Stalinists or anarchists or reformists come together and decide what topics will be discussed.

In the 60s there were many newspapers that represented the views of a variety of new-left groups and induviduals. I think we need the same sort of thing now, but I wouldn't criticize the "Socialist Worker" or "Revolution" for not being that because the newspapers are for a different perpose.

kong

9th April 2009, 00:00

the laziness makes it appear as if your trying to say the wobblies are an injury to all. someone like myself not completely familiar with your politics would take this as an anti-IWW session.

OriginalGumby

14th April 2009, 06:57

New promo video http://vimeo.com/4139087

Taboo Tongue

14th April 2009, 07:48

I'm sure the conversation has moved on by page 5 but...

That takes money and its worth it because Socialism conferences are the place to be for socialist politics.
I'm a young unemployed worker (living alone), and no... some stuffy hotel in SF is not the place for Socialist Politics. In the streets of Downtown, The Tenderloin, and The Mission are the places for socialist politics in San Francisco.
I won't pay $75 to hear anyone speak. Sorry, ISO should rethink it's fees. Sliding Scales and what not.

OriginalGumby

14th April 2009, 18:14

Contact a branch out there to see it financial assistance is possible. Many branches raise money to bring people who would come but can't because of lack of money. It's a reality that many people are dealing with including myself who is also an unemployed proletarian. We have speakers at smaller venues all the time for free including the places you mention I'd bet. The difference is that these conferences are so large that they cost a lot to put on in the first place because we need a large venue, are bringing in numerous outside speakers including international speakers from hotspots of struggle. We would not be able to support this without registration fees. We do have a sliding scale already and we have smaller conferences that don't cost as much in the fall and we have regular events that are free.I think that we should continue to organize the annual large conferences and charge what is necessary to support them. Branches have the ability to raise money to support people who don't have as much, that is what mine does and we are planning on bringing one hundred people from Madison. You should consider that an option. FYI here is the website for the bay area branches of the iso. There is contact info and meeting info. They are doing a set of meetings on the relevance of marx that don't cost a thing. I hope you com to the conference. http://norcalsocialism.org/bayarea-marx-is-back-hm-forums-all-events

15th April 2009, 02:29

Contact a branch out there to see it financial assistance is possible. Many branches raise money to bring people who would come but can't because of lack of money. It's a reality that many people are dealing with including myself who is also an unemployed proletarian. We have speakers at smaller venues all the time for free including the places you mention I'd bet. The difference is that these conferences are so large that they cost a lot to put on in the first place because we need a large venue, are bringing in numerous outside speakers including international speakers from hotspots of struggle. We would not be able to support this without registration fees. We do have a sliding scale already and we have smaller conferences that don't cost as much in the fall and we have regular events that are free.

There is absolutely zero mention of how to achieve assistance form a branch or a "sliding scale" fee. On the Socialism 2009 website, this is the only mention of any type of assistance:

Consider contributing to our scholarship fund (https://secure.cnchost.com/isreview.org/soc2009/donation.php) to help activists who need financial assistance come be a part of Socialism 2009!

And that only tells you how to donate. On the registration form you only have these following options:

Early bird rate - whole conference, US$75, available until May 1 ($85 after May 1)
Weekend rate - Saturday & Sunday only, US$70
Single day - One day, US$35
Single session - US$10

Solidarity rates: Those who pay at a solidarity rate help defray costs and all solidarity contributions are much appreciated.

Solidarity rate #1 - whole conference, US$150
Solidarity rate #2 - whole conference, US$300
Solidarity rate #3 - whole conference, US$500

OriginalGumby

23rd May 2009, 00:15

Just wanted to note some new information. We are actually lucky to break even with these conferences. They are not a source of money and we frequently end up with a net loss but we keep the ticket price as affordable as possible while keeping it high enough to support the event. Branches raise money through organized fund raising efforts that are designed to help offset some of the cost and subsidize low income people. While we want people who are not connected with the ISO to attend I think it does make some sense to prioritize raising money for people near or in branches of the organization. We have working class students and unemployed folks in and around our branch that our fundraising money is going to. That said there should maybe be some info about how to get some assistance if money is the main issue. However many people don't exhaust the means they do have of raising money for a worthwhile venture. We are doing garage sales, fundraising parties, shaking down schools for money, and passing the hat at meetings. I suggest that anyone who is interested in coming attempt some of these efforts with others who are interested. The reality of this system is that we cannot give away an event that costs tens of thousands of dollars to put on. The ISO is putting on smaller regional conferences in the fall that are much cheaper and has public meetings all the time that are free. http://www.internationalsocialist.org/branches.html