Few quries about Left.!

[xeusviper]

hello everyone, I have few questions regarding communism, I would like to get the answers. 1. Communism offers classless society, freedom of speech, free education, free healthcare apart from industrialization and economic plans. On the other side if see Islam it tells you to do the same thing other than that it has never been practiced the way it should have been i.e. communism has never been practiced in the same spirit. People who got voted acted as dictators, why not choose Islam over it?? 2. Do you think that prostitution and other crimes will increase in the name of "freedom of speech"? 3. Islam cannot be separated from government because it gives you certain instructions in quran about inheritance, martial issues, it gives you a economy system then why not Islam, its a different course if you are an atheist. 4.what about Chechen that Stalin killed in Russia?? 5. my other point is why left media or specially Russian media didn’t do anything for capitalization ,in favors to what they were doing to them?? My point is why opt for left? i would love to see people commenting on this, reason is quite clear i want answers... I am a Muslim myself...

[Bitter Ashes]

I'll have a go:
1) Organised religions are not classless societies. The higher escelons of the order do not actualy produce anything, but live off the labour of those "below" them. As I understand it, fundamentalist states require taxes to be paid to these religious leaders, although it could just as easily be tithes. If there is a deity out there, then surely they are there for every one of thier creations, not just the ones who are elected into these positions of power by a panel of high ranking ministers.
As for freedom of speech, or more importantly, expression. Islam in particular can be very strict about this. For example, nobody here has directly spoken to The Prophet Mohammed and all we have to validate anything he's said is in writings held and controlled by these ministers. Now then, there's the assumption that these ministers, although merely human and open to flaws, have never tampered with those writings to benefit themselves. Even more dangerous is that heavy punishment is inflicted upon anyone who ever dares to question these recordings' validitity. These recordings are also used to infringe upon freedom of expression in dress, attitude, opinion and even covers "thought crimes". If there is a deity out there then they should be doing thier own policing work, not entrusting it to a board of easily corrupted human biengs.

2) The vast majority of crimes will decrease almost overnight. Need and greed are the biggest motives for the majority of crimes and when there's a society that both are eliminated by the free distribution of all goods then it actualy becomes impossible to commit a lot of crimes. Prostitition I'd imagine would decrease because simply, women would be benefitting from these free access to goods just like men and wouldnt actualy have anything that could be traded to them for sex. As a side note, it shouldn't really be a crime right now either and the current problem is the pimps-bourgeois exploitation of women.

3) I'm not sure what you're getting at, but I personally wouldnt feel happy with having leaders of any kind, especially those that would ask me to either pay dhimmitude tax or wear hijaab and follow other parts of shi'ara.

4) I'm not a fan of Stalin and I dont actualy consider him a worker. I'm not sure what the question was I'm sorry.

5) Well, I can imagine that the left media wouldnt be too kind towards capitalists. Under true communism, everyone is a worker. Under capitalists, there are workers and then there are the bourgeois who profit from the workers' labour and withhold a reasonable standard of living from billions. The left media would not be controlled by the bourgeois, so would be able to comment freely on how the bourgeois exploit and oppress workers in capitalist countries. Any worker in thier right mind cannot seriously support things like Sir Fred Goodwin's £700k a year pension from the treasury or Bill Gates' $40bn piggy bank that could bring 2/3 of Africa up to European standards of welfare.

[Sam_b]

I'm trying and failing to write my uni essay here, so i'll be brief and try to cover everything.


1. Communism offers classless society, freedom of speech, free education, free healthcare apart from industrialization and economic plans. On the other side if see Islam it tells you to do the same thing other than that it has never been practiced the way it should have been i.e. communism has never been practiced in the same spirit. People who got voted acted as dictators, why not choose Islam over it??

I don't see the two as being mutually exclusive. I firmly believe that religion should be a private matter, and there are a siginifcant proportion of Muslim brothers and sisters in my party, the SWP. We also work with organisations such as Stop the War and Unite Against Fascism, and many members of these organisations are also of the Islamic faith.


2. Do you think that prostitution and other crimes will increase in the name of "freedom of speech

Firstly, I think its important to say that I don't recognise prostitution as a crime. I am very much in favour of all sex workers being unionised and for a decriminalisation. That said, a lot of women are forced into prostitution for several reasons: primarily by coercion, gang culture in several places, or simply having no other means to turn an income. A lot of sex workers don't want to do this (although I recognise a small minority that do) and find it humiliating and degrading. The problem here is that capitalism breeds a culture of women being seen as sexual objects, as well as not giving the resources to stop the mechanism. This includes jobs and a decent wage. Once women have complete freedom from capitalism and patriarchy, I believe that prostitution would dramatically decrease.


3. Islam cannot be separated from government because it gives you certain instructions in quran about inheritance, martial issues, it gives you a economy system then why not Islam, its a different course if you are an atheist.

I don't see religion as a set of concrete rules, rather a set of guidelines for living. The Muslim population in Britain, for example, does not follow everything set out in the Qu'ran, because of the (albeit loose) separation of church and state makes some particular ins-and-outs as being uncompatable. That doesn't make these people any better or worse Muslims. Similarly with what the Bible says about homosexuality: not all Christians adhere to some of the more out of date and reactionary aspects.


4.what about Chechen that Stalin killed in Russia???

I think Stalin's displacement policy with regards to the Chechens was abhorrant, but is it any worse than Putin's massacre of the people of Grozny and its war of aggression against Chechens who merely want their right to self-determination accepted and realised? Its also worth saying that not all socialists and communists supported Stalin.


5. my other point is why left media or specially Russian media didn’t do anything for capitalization ,in favors to what they were doing to them?? My point is why opt for left?

First of all, lets not make a distinction between Russia and other countries in this regard: it is capitalist and of course imperialist, and I don't support it any more or less than other capitalist states in the world. It also would make no sense for the left in our publications to 'do anything' for capitalism because we don't support its system. However, we are not naive enough to try and artificially separate ourselves from it: you cannot boycott capitalism.

[#FF0000]

1. Communism offers classless society, freedom of speech, free education, free healthcare apart from industrialization and economic plans. On the other side if see Islam it tells you to do the same thing other than that it has never been practiced the way it should have been i.e. communism has never been practiced in the same spirit. People who got voted acted as dictators, why not choose Islam over it??

Well, communism is a socio-economic system, and Islam is a religion. I'm a communist (and an anarchist) because my observations of the world lead me to believe that communist-anarchism is at the very least, a better way to do things.

Islam, on the other hand, is a religion, so it's based on faith, and not on anything physical or tangible or observable. Granted, my belief that an anarchist society would work out and would be preferable to what we have today is a leap of faith in itself, to an extent, but it's based in reason and observation. I'm just not a person of faith. Religion isn't my thing. Still, as Sam_b said, one can be a muslim and a communist at the same time, I suppose.


2. Do you think that prostitution and other crimes will increase in the name of "freedom of speech

Well, freedom of speech really doesn't have anything to do with why people go into prostitution, and I don't see prostitution as a crime. If somebody wants to sell sex to someone, that's fine. However, if someone is forced into prostitution because of social and economic factors, as (I would suppose) the vast majority of prostitutes today are, then that certainly isn't right.

What it comes down to is that people driven to deviant behaviors like prostitution (in most places), drug use (in most places), and crime, are usually, if not nearly always, pushed to that point as a result of poverty and other economic factors.


3. Islam cannot be separated from government because it gives you certain instructions in quran about inheritance, martial issues, it gives you a economy system then why not Islam, its a different course if you are an atheist.

Well, personally I don't think religion is a good thing to build a political system on. Like Sam_b said, I think religion should be a strictly private matter.


4.what about Chechen that Stalin killed in Russia???

Even Marxist-Leninists (Who "uphold Stalin") don't agree with every single thing Lenin and Stalin have done. They may just agree with the ideas put forward by them, but they don't have to (nor do they) condone every single they they ever did.

[Rjevan]

I'm not very firm in Islam, so feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

1.) As far as I know, in Islam free education is only in valid for males... the girls in Afghanistan weren't allowed to go to school. And it's the aim of communism to end discrimination and to establish equality so how could we allow the discrimination of women? As far as I know the Islam sees women as inferior to men, many things which are allowed to men aren't allowed to women; this isn't the case in communism.
And in my opinion freedom of speech includes freedom of religion and beliefs, so why should I be forced to believe in something that seems totally wrong to me if another religion or atheism match much better with my views and style of life? In Islam I have to follow very strict rules and I have to submit to religious leaders and their interpretation of Islam and if not I have to face rather heavy penalties. Communism wants to emancipate people and lead them out of obedience.
And as for dictators of the left... remember Ayatollah Khomeini, who did some real terrible things and killed many of his former followers, just as Stalin is accused of having done.

2.) I see no real connection between prostitution and freedom of speech (which you say is guaranteed in Islam, too) and I don't see prostitution as a crime.
Many women only have to prostitute themselves because they badly need money, are driven to prostitution by the social circumstances they live in or by the patriarchy, which makes women into sex objects, or they simply have no other chances of earning money because they aren't qualified enough. Communism wants to end the patriarchy and to present equal education for everybody, that means equal chances for everybody.
So thereby prostitution will decrease because women have equal chances as men.

3.) Why can't Islam be separated from government? Kemal Atatürk did this and Turkey developed very well, as far as I know.
I too think, religion and state are two different things which should be independent from each other. This applys not only for Islam, we saw what happened in medieval times, when the catholic church and the pope massivly influenced politics.

4.) As already stated, many communists disagree with many of Stalin's views and even we Anti-Revisionists don't agree with everything he did but still, think of the things the Taliban did, Khomeini did and Al-Qaeda did; are they so much better?

5.) I don't know if I get you question right there but of course communist/socialist states did nothing for capitalism because they did nothing for us. Capitalism and communism are total contrasts. The capitalist countries always tried to make the USSR and communism in general look like pure evil itself, told their people that terrible crimes happened there and how good they had it under capitalism. So why should we support capitalism in the media?

[Sam_b]

As far as I know, in Islam free education is only in valid for males... the girls in Afghanistan weren't allowed to go to school. And it's the aim of communism to end discrimination and to establish equality so how could we allow the discrimination of women? As far as I know the Islam sees women as inferior to men, many things which are allowed to men aren't allowed to women; this isn't the case in communism.

I would endevour that these are critiques of the governments that claim to be ruling in the name of Islam, rather than Islamic thought itself.

[Rjevan]

Doesn't Islam state that women are inferior to men and denys them many rights, which men actually have?

[Sam_b]

I believe that Islam divides men and women by differences in role and spheres of responsibility. In fact, most religions have done this at some point, Christianity being the most obvious example in my mind. Do you have any Qu'ran quotes that justify your view, Rjevan?

I'm not defending and i'm not religious, far from it, but I do think we have to make a distinction between what has been documented and what has been put in place by various practices, groups and governments. Its certainly an interesting one.

[Rjevan]

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them (of the teaching of Allah), then ignore them when you go to bed, then hit them. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.


...Wives have the same rights as the husbands have on them in accordance with the generally known principles. Of course, men are a degree above them in status...

These are the two I came across the most and I think they clearly show that women are seen as inferiors who depend on the generostiy and protection of men.
Of course Christianity which sees a woman reponsible for the fall of mankind and therefore reasons that women are inferior and easier seduced by the devil than men and most religions stated just the same at some point of their history. But I wouldn't prefer Christianity or any other religion over Communism, too...

Yes, I know what you mean. As I said I'm not that firm with Islamic teachings and of course it would be stupid just to rely on what the media and the mainstream tells you. This isn't in my interest, as I said if I'm wrong please feel free to correct me, as I too think that this is interesting.

[Sam_b]

Aye, i'm pretty much in agreement with that. Thanks for posting your findings.