more anarchism + the internationals

[Black Sheep]

1)After having watched these vids series about DM :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yo8X7lAQyUY&feature=channel_page

From what he says about bourgeoisie philosophers and economists, their view and emphasis about the individual (u can choose if/who to work for, the center of society is the individual and not the social relations) brought anarchism to mind, and the M-L's claims that anarchism is a child of bourgeoisie thinking and philosophy.

I'd like the anarchists' comment on that.

2) Also a question:
Why didn't the anarchists participate in the 2nd international?
(and no, the argument that 'the marxists moved the 2nd international to america so that the anarchists couldn't participate is ultra-stupid)

edit: whoa, the bakuninists were expelled from the IWA?


In 1872, the conflict in the First International climaxed with the expulsion of Bakunin and those who had become known as the "Bakuninists" when they were outvoted by the Marx party at the Hague Congress (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hague_Congress_%281872%29).http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist_objections_to_marxism

[Die Neue Zeit]

The anarchists did participate in the 2nd International initially, until the majority decided in favour of employing the parliamentary tactic.

[Invincible Summer]

I'm not a history buff so I can't answer #2, but for #1... pretty much any theory and philosophy was done be educated and therefore, in that time period, at least petty-bourgeois thinkers, yes?

So it's possible that anarchism, as well as Marxism, etc all stemmed from "bourgeois" philosophy and intellectualism.

It shouldn't matter what class background the philosophers or thinkers came from when they wrote anarchist/Marxist/etc literature. The ideas are what matter.


And for me at least, anarchism isn't solely about the individual, but it seeks to balance collectivity and individuality in Communism.

[Black Sheep]

So it's possible that anarchism, as well as Marxism, etc all stemmed from "bourgeois" philosophy and intellectualism.

It shouldn't matter what class background the philosophers or thinkers came from when they wrote anarchist/Marxist/etc literature. The ideas are what matter.


I dont question that,my question was different.I am talking about the center and the main elements, the 'core' of each philosophical / political current.

[Nils T.]

All anarchists are not individualists. All bourgeois thinkers are not individualists. Ideally, there's no "center" in the revolutionnary theory : the society and the individuals are indivisible, and any thinking that avoid that point will decay into ideology.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I dont question that,my question was different.I am talking about the center and the main elements, the 'core' of each philosophical / political current.

By that do you mean Anarchism is individualist. All Left Anarchists are individualists because we seek each individuals freedom from oppression, be that economic or social oppression. We want both individual freedom and collective equality. I don't know why you are using the term individualist as a slur.

[Black Sheep]

[QUOTE]the society and the individuals are indivisible, and any thinking that avoid that point will decay into ideology./QUOTE]
That is just marxist thinking.

[Nils T.]

Marx did stress that point against utopian socialists, but that's not marxism, that's materialism.

[autotrophic]

All anarchists are not individualists. All bourgeois thinkers are not individualists. Ideally, there's no "center" in the revolutionnary theory : the society and the individuals are indivisible, and any thinking that avoid that point will decay into ideology.
It really depends what you mean by individualist. If you take 'individualism' to mean right of control over one's self, then that is one of the essential parts of anarchism. Earlier on, anarchism was also known as individualist socialism.