Zbig calls for "class solidarity" instead of "class war" on MSNBC

[pauljpoposky]

Zbiginiew Brzeznski on MSNBC Wed morning calls for "social solidarity" and "class solidarity", "national solidarity" and "social responsibility" instead of "class warfare". I thought this was interesting. Perhaps a sign of how nervous the ruling class really is concerning the potential for growth in working class consciousness and action under present conditions. check it out at:


msnbc.msn dot com /id/3036789/#29893226

[GPDP]

I can feel the media hacks quaking in their $300 shoes at the prospect of class warfare.

[jake williams]

Brzezinski is an imperialist monster. This ain't exactly the worst thing he's ever done or said.

[Pogue]

What, so am I meant to go hug a fucking banker and tell him not to get too down about the fact he fucked everything up for me?

Someone give me Murdoch's number so I can exchange personal stories with him late into the night.

To be honest I'd rather kick the fucker out and take over his means of production.

[x359594]

Brzezinski is an imperialist monster. This ain't exactly the worst thing he's ever done or said.

You said it comrade. He's the mouth piece of a faction of the ruling class and a major capitalist gangster.

[Das war einmal]

One can hardly be surprised Brzeznsky is the mind behind the Afghanistan rebellion (months before the soviets interfered), which the USSR was so foolish to fall in. He stated 'now we can give the soviets their Vietnam', he got what he wanted, at the cost of hundreds of thousands lives. He should be punished, here in The Hague as the war criminal he is

[Psy]

He gives nothing but a few bad apples excuse combined with downplaying the power of the capitalist class and ignoring the logic driving the capitalist class. He talks like it is just a few capitalists that are greedy bastards instead of the view that the capitalist mode of production forces capitalists to accumulate as much capital as possible by any means necessary.

[Matina]

Well that is what the capitalists want in times of social turmoil.
The bad thing is that some socialists, stalinists and "lefties" comply with that.

[Das war einmal]

Well that is what the capitalists want in times of social turmoil.
The bad thing is that some socialists, stalinists and "lefties" comply with that.

Which 'stalinists' are you referring to?

[Matina]

Which 'stalinists' are you referring to?

Those that subordinated the proletariat to the Kuomintang in China(the "progressive" bourgeoisie), following Stalin's orders (popular frontism), leading to the massacre of thousands of workers and the betrayal of the workers movement and revolution.

Those Stalinists who allied themselves with the provisional government under Stalin's orders in Spain. Again pursuing the tactic of popular frontism. They were the ones who hunted "trotskyists" and anarchists by the way, instead of fighting fascism, most of the time.

Those same Stalinists in Greece, who signed a deal with the imperialist government, because they wanted to "ally themselves with the 'progressive bourgeoisie' in order to develop capitalism in Greece" . They signed a deal, which led to the massacre of thousands of workers and they called those who went on the mountains to fight the imperialists as "heretics". See the history of Aris Velouhiotis.

Those same Stalinists in Indonesia, who due to their policy of popular frontism, led to the destruction of the biggest communist party,apart from China and the USSR and the massacre of millions of workers by the reaction.
(etc etc etc etc)
I am talking about those Stalinists!

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

Class collaboration is a principle of social organization that forms part of Fascist philosophy. It is based upon the belief that the division of society into a hierarchy of social classes is a positive and essential aspect of civilization. In the words of Benito Mussolini, "[Fascism] affirms the irremediable, fruitful and beneficent inequality of men."[1] Given this premise, Fascists conclude that the preservation of social hierarchy is in the interests of all classes, and therefore all classes should collaborate in its defense. Both the lower and the higher classes should accept their roles and perform their respective duties.In Fascist thought, the principle of class collaboration is combined with strong nationalism. The stability and prosperity of the nation was seen as the ultimate purpose of collaboration between classes.

hmm...

[Das war einmal]

Those that subordinated the proletariat to the Kuomintang in China(the "progressive" bourgeoisie), following Stalin's orders (popular frontism), leading to the massacre of thousands of workers and the betrayal of the workers movement and revolution.

Those Stalinists who allied themselves with the provisional government under Stalin's orders in Spain. Again pursuing the tactic of popular frontism. They were the ones who hunted "trotskyists" and anarchists by the way, instead of fighting fascism, most of the time.

Those same Stalinists in Greece, who signed a deal with the imperialist government, because they wanted to "ally themselves with the 'progressive bourgeoisie' in order to develop capitalism in Greece" . They signed a deal, which led to the massacre of thousands of workers and they called those who went on the mountains to fight the imperialists as "heretics". See the history of Aris Velouhiotis.

Those same Stalinists in Indonesia, who due to their policy of popular frontism, led to the destruction of the biggest communist party,apart from China and the USSR and the massacre of millions of workers by the reaction.
(etc etc etc etc)
I am talking about those Stalinists!

Oh yeah, its the fault of the 'stalinist' not the fascist under command by Franco nor the CIA backed dictator Suharto that the communist were exterminated. Next to that, you embrace petty bourgeois trends and seem to enjoy smithing the revolutionary history. You have made less than 10 posts and I am sick of you already

Revisionist like you are the ones to blame for the collapse of the USSR, the failing of the Spanish civil war, the extermination of the resistance in Greece etc etc etc. You take more effort in attacking the 'stalinist' using bourgeois sources as 'proof', than you put effort in the class struggle. Did you know that Trotsky was having ties to counterrevolutionaries who wanted to perform a coup when the USSR was being attacked by Nazi Germany? I bet you dont.

[Psy]

Revisionist like you are the ones to blame for the collapse of the USSR, the failing of the Spanish civil war, the extermination of the resistance in Greece etc etc etc. You take more effort in attacking the 'stalinist' using bourgeois sources as 'proof', than you put effort in the class struggle. Did you know that Trotsky was having ties to counterrevolutionaries who wanted to perform a coup when the USSR was being attacked by Nazi Germany? I bet you dont.

And Stalin sank the Chinese and Russian revolution with his incorrect stages theory that put a wall between the progressive role of the capitalists and the workers revolution, while Trotsky correctly stated there is no reason why a anti-feudal revolution has to go through a long drawn out capitalist period, Trotsky actually stated correctly Stalin's stages tactic could never work as there was no progressive capitalists in underdeveloped.

As for Trotsky wanting to perform a coup against the USSR during WWII that is impossible since Trotsky died in 1940 when the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was still in effect, Trotsky would have had to risen from the grave in order to do that.

[Das war einmal]

And Stalin sank the Chinese and Russian revolution with his incorrect stages theory that put a wall between the progressive role of the capitalists and the workers revolution, while Trotsky correctly stated there is no reason why a anti-feudal revolution has to go through a long drawn out capitalist period, Trotsky actually stated correctly Stalin's stages tactic could never work as there was no progressive capitalists in underdeveloped.

As for Trotsky wanting to perform a coup against the USSR during WWII that is impossible since Trotsky died in 1940 when the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact was still in effect, Trotsky would have had to risen from the grave in order to do that.

I have never heard of Stalin stages theory neither do I give a shit, fact is that under the USSR the country developed from a backward feudalist country where 80% of the population couldnt write nor read the 2nd largest economy on the world that beat fascism and made increddible progress in science and the living standard of the average civilian. Something Trotsky didnt think would be possible.

And the invasion of the Soviet Union was allready known to be inevitable. Escaped counter-revolutionaries wrote that they had ties to Trotsky, who himself called upon the workers to attempt an armed coup.

[Psy]

I have never heard of Stalin stages theory neither do I give a shit,

This is major counter-argument to the theory of pertinent revolution that Lenin and Trotsky subscribed to. It basically take Marx's and Engels writings out of context and assumes that since Marx said capitalists had a progressive role in Marx's time that capitalists have a necessary role.



fact is that under the USSR the country developed from a backward feudalist country where 80% of the population couldnt write nor read the 2nd largest economy on the world that beat fascism and made increddible progress in science and the living standard of the average civilian. Something Trotsky didnt think would be possible.

That became so degenerated that even before the U.S.S.R collapsed the state crushed labor movements within the Warsaw pact that were simply demanding better working conditions that the U.S.S.R state couldn't give because the U.S.S.R state was focused on maximizing its accumulation of foreign capital.



And the invasion of the Soviet Union was allready known to be inevitable. Escaped counter-revolutionaries wrote that they had ties to Trotsky, who himself called upon the workers to attempt an armed coup.
It was not, there was military coups and worker uprisings occurring in Nazi Germany till 1945. Also it was proven Stalin doctored photos meaning odds are Stalin manufactured all the evidence against Trotsky. Let's not forget Stalin purged every one that was close to Lenin during the revolution and I find to believe that every single revolutionary during the October Russian revolution was a counter-revolutionary.

[Matina]

Oh yeah, its the fault of the 'stalinist' not the fascist under command by Franco nor the CIA backed dictator Suharto that the communist were exterminated. Next to that, you embrace petty bourgeois trends and seem to enjoy smithing the revolutionary history. You have made less than 10 posts and I am sick of you already



Revisionist like you are the ones to blame for the collapse of the USSR, the failing of the Spanish civil war, the extermination of the resistance in Greece etc etc etc. You take more effort in attacking the 'stalinist' using bourgeois sources as 'proof', than you put effort in the class struggle. Did you know that Trotsky was having ties to counterrevolutionaries who wanted to perform a coup when the USSR was being attacked by Nazi Germany? I bet you dont. __________________

First of all I don't care if you detest me. I don't care about you, really. For Franco and Suharto to get a the mass basis required for the extermination of communists, there is a need of communists "fucking up". Or in other words, betraying the working class first. Again you have an idealist approach to history. In fact the "Communists" (Stalinists) betrayed the proletariat by subordinating it to the "progressive" bourgeoisie, in China, Spain, Indonesia etc. under the Stalinist idea of Stage Theory and that led to the massacre. Stalin's revisionism was the cause of that.

Again in Greece, China and Spain the "Communists" acted under the line of Stalin. So you are right, revisionists like Stalin fucked the proletariat over. As for bourgeois sources, since when the subordination of the Stalinists to the 'progressive bourgeoisie' is a bourgeois source? You seem utterly confused. As for Trotsky trying to form a coup in Russia is ridiculous. Trotksky talked about a political revolution, which would bring workers democracy, so we won't have a restoration of capitalism in Russia. Since a political revolution didn't happen, the restoration of capitalism was inevitable.

You seem to have this idealistic view that one fine morning, the revisionists took over and destroyed the Soviet Union (under Krutchev). But in order for Krutchev and his bureaucratic clique to take over, material conditions of lack of workers control were needed. And these conditions were created under Stalin. If you cannot understand history in a materialist manner, you are not a marxist.

[Das war einmal]

Right so you are blaming the failure of socialism at Stalin, because his theories of stage socialism (whatever that has to do with it) lead to the defeats in these countries? I dont think you realize how this fascists did operate. Perhaps you naivly assume that the USSR was all powerfull and they could have prevented all of this if only Trotsky led the Soviet Union? Last but not least the USSR was allready on the socialism in one country road under Lenin, cause the revolutions in the rest of the world utterly failed.

Why are we even discussing this, its about Breziznsky goddamnit and you trots are bringing in this entire subject of 'stalinism' that doesnt have to do shit with this anyhow. I was wondering if you got proof that 'stalinists' today are collaborating with the bourgeois and you come with stories about more than 50 years ago... jesus its like you are more busy fighting 'stalinists' than capitalism

[JimmyJazz]

Unfortuntely Andy Stern, president of the second largest union in the U.S., has been saying the same thing.

From his 2008 book: "class struggle mentality is a vestige of an earlier era." He calls for unions to use "leverage", i.e. promising to cooperate with employers with the goal of increasing profits, as a tool to create more widespread unionization in the U.S.

[Yazman]

hmm...

LOL thats exactly what I thought about when I read this!

[pauljpoposky]

Why are we even discussing this, its about Breziznsky goddamnit and you trots are bringing in this entire subject of 'stalinism' that doesnt have to do shit with this anyhow.

hey! Im a godammned trot too!


Unfortuntely Andy Stern, president of the second largest union in the U.S., has been saying the same thing.

From his 2008 book: "class struggle mentality is a vestige of an earlier era." He calls for unions to use "leverage", i.e. promising to cooperate with employers with the goal of increasing profits, as a tool to create more widespread unionization in the U.S.

actually this is one of the biggest problems I think we are dealing with inside organized labor today. we want to build a mass party of labor but we've got class-collaborators like Stern pulling hard to the right on the rudder of the movement, pushing towards corporate unionism. the battles we have to fight are just as great within our own mass-organizations as they are outside against the capitalist class.