Question for Turkish ICC members

[Led Zeppelin]

I know that the ICC is illegal in Turkey, but I'm wondering which law the Turkish state uses as an excuse for that, and also if you believe that the state will have to change that law if it wishes to be accepted into the EU?

[Devrim]

The ICC in Turkey is not a proscribed political organisation. It is more 'not legal' than 'illegal' if you see what I mean. It is not a registered political organisation.

However, it would not be possible to register it as an organisation as it is illegal in Turkey for a political organisation to advocate Islamic law, national separatism, or class dictatorship.

On the question about the EU, do you really think Turkey has a chance in hell of getting in?

Devrim

[Sasha]

On the question about the EU, do you really think Turkey has a chance in hell of getting in?


off course they will, its in the intrest of the bourgois/elite, they are already in the NATO arent they.
economical (cheap labor & big still developing market) as political (see below) as militarly (buffer zone againt the midleeast/kaukasus/asia, suitable for proxy wars) intrests at that.

and as they will succeed in presenting at as an way of modernizing turkey and protecting an "european" country from arabian/islamic fundamentalist influences most dissent will dissapear.

other question: what is the legal status in turkey of the grey woles (i know they are an banned organisation in germany but are, although controversial, allowed in holland)

[Led Zeppelin]

The ICC in Turkey is not a proscribed political organisation. It is more 'not legal' than 'illegal' if you see what I mean. It is not a registered political organisation.

However, it would not be possible to register it as an organisation as it is illegal in Turkey for a political organisation to advocate Islamic law, national separatism, or class dictatorship.

Hmm, I thought the current ruling party advocated a form of Islamic law in its programme, or at least was leaning towards it which caused the courts to force it to change its name a few times?

On the issue of the law, do you know what exactly it says in the law regarding the illegality of political organizations, specifically what it says about forbidding them if they advocate a certain view?


On the question about the EU, do you really think Turkey has a chance in hell of getting in?

At the moment that's really doubtful given the tensions between Turkey and some of the biggest EU countries on issues such as Cyprus and the conditions of "human rights" in Turkey.

I am wondering though whether either the EU or Turkey will change its laws to make sure the joining does happen, or (in the case of the EU) simply sugarcoat the issue and pretend there's no contradiction with the EU constitution.

[Devrim]

Hmm, I thought the current ruling party advocated a form of Islamic law in its programme, or at least was leaning towards it which caused the courts to force it to change its name a few times?

The constitutional court didn't decide that it did last year. They weren't forced to change their name previously though. They were banned, and people formed new parties.


On the issue of the law, do you know what exactly it says in the law regarding the illegality of political organizations, specifically what it says about forbidding them if they advocate a certain view?


Article 68: Forming Parties, Membership and Withdrawal From Membership in a Party
c5. The statutes and programmes, as well as the activities of political parties shall not be in conflict with the independence of the state, its indivisible integrity with its territory and nation, human rights, the principles of equality and rule of law, sovereignty of the nation, the principles of the democratic and secular republic; they shall not aim to protect or establish class or group dictatorshipor dictatorship of any kind, nor shall they incite citizens to crime.


other question: what is the legal status in turkey of the grey woles (i know they are an banned organisation in germany but are, although controversial, allowed in holland)

What exactly are the Grey Wolves today? It is more of a nickname for right-wing militants than an actual organisation. Traditionally they were the youth groups of the MHP although at times they denied an actual connection. Today are they the youth groups of the MHP traditional fascist party, or the BBP* (a more right wing split)? People still refer to grey wolves, but it is a bit like referring to ultra-nationalists, or neo-fascists. There is certainly no 'Grey Wolf organisation' on the list of banned political organisations.

Devrim

*Whose leader has just died in a helicopter crash.

[Devrim]

off course they will, its in the intrest of the bourgois/elite, they are already in the NATO arent they.
economical (cheap labor & big still developing market) as political (see below) as militarly (buffer zone againt the midleeast/kaukasus/asia, suitable for proxy wars) intrests at that.

and as they will succeed in presenting at as an way of modernizing turkey and protecting an "european" country from arabian/islamic fundamentalist influences most dissent will dissapear.

Turkey has been trying to join the EU and its predecessor organisations since 1959. I don't see any change coming soon.

Devrim

[Yehuda Stern]

But are these laws really so rigorously enforced? In Israel, theoretically, parties challenging the Jewish or democratic nature of the state are banned, but some Arab parties openly advocate a "state of all its citizens" (i.e., a bourgeois state without an explicit Jewish bias), and of course there are quite a few right wing parties challenging whatever democracy one can say exists here.

[black magick hustla]

Do the official turkish stalinists participate in parliament?

[Devrim]

But are these laws really so rigorously enforced? In Israel, theoretically, parties challenging the Jewish or democratic nature of the state are banned, but some Arab parties openly advocate a "state of all its citizens" (i.e., a bourgeois state without an explicit Jewish bias), and of course there are quite a few right wing parties challenging whatever democracy one can say exists here.

The political ancestors of the current governing party has been banned twice; Refah Partisi was banned when it was in Government in 1988, and Fazilet Partisi was banned in 2001. There was an attempt to ban the current governing party last year, which failed in that although they got a majority in the constitutional court in favour of a ban (6 out of 11), it was not big enough to ban the party, which requires 7 out of 11 votes.

Pro-Kurdish parties have also been banned including Halkın Demokrasi Partisi. The current Demokratik Toplum Partisi, which has about twenty MPs was also nearly banned last year.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Do the official turkish stalinists participate in parliament?

They stand. As I remember in the last election they got nearly 80,000 votes, which is nowhere near enough to get into parliment. The TKP, of course, does not advocate class dictatorship.

Devrim

[black magick hustla]

Not even in rhetoric?

[Charles Xavier]

They stand. As I remember in the last election they got nearly 80,000 votes, which is nowhere near enough to get into parliment. The TKP, of course, does not advocate class dictatorship.

Devrim

The TKP doesn't on the basis its illegal not on the basis they don't believe in a dictatorship in the proletariat.

However this is not the traditional TKP it is a new TKP with no organic links to the old TKP.

[Devrim]

The TKP doesn't on the basis its illegal not on the basis they don't believe in a dictatorship in the proletariat.

Well I think that that tells us what sort of so-called communist party it is. Actually their most visible public manifestation is the Yurtsever Cephe, which translates as something like Patriotic Front, which I think also says something about what sort of communist party it is.


However this is not the traditional TKP it is a new TKP with no organic links to the old TKP.

Túpac is right here. Today's TKP although it likes to insert itself into the historic line, it is quite honest about this. It was formed in 2001 from the Socialist Power Party.

I suppose its a bit like the Leninist (who incidentaly were an English branch of a section of the TKP) in the UK proclaiming itself to be the CPGB. After the collapse of the Soviet bloc, the names were up for grabs so they grabbed them.

The main current of the old TKP is now the Freedom and Solidarity Party. Although there were lots of splits and other groups claim to be the continuation.

Also when we talk about the history of the TKP, we shouldn't forget to mention the Türkiye Komünist Fırkası often known as the Official TKP. It was offical not in that it was the official communist organisation, but in that it was set up by the state, actually by Mustafa Kemal in 1920.

Devrim