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Q
21st March 2009, 09:47
Source (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2009/03/2003.html)
PDF version of the document (http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2009/03/pdf200301.pdf)

CWI

In the current issue of ‘Revolutionary History’ Alan Woods, leader of the International Marxist Tendency (IMT) ‘criticises’ Tony Aitman, a longstanding Militant supporter and Socialist Party member for his political obituary of Ted Grant in Volume 9, Number 4 of that journal. He also ‘criticises’ Peter Taaffe, General Secretary of the Socialist Party of England and Wales. ‘Revolutionary History’, due to its printing schedule and space in the current issue, were unable to publish our replies. We therefore carry below our replies to Woods. We also publish here Woods’ original article in full in order that readers can form their own opinions on the issues under dispute. We will be very surprised if the IMT acts in a similar fashion by publishing our replies to Woods but we live in hope! Keith Dickinson has also replied to Woods and his piece will be published soon on marxist.net.

Militant’s Real History – a reply to Alan Woods

“An eagle can fly as low as a barnyard hen but a barnyard hen can never reach the height of an eagle.”
CWI

On Pierre Broué and Ted Grant
by Alan Woods

If Aesop were alive today, and had just read the latest copy of Revolutionary History, he would have amused himself by writing a little story like this:

In the plains of Africa, when a lion dies, all kinds of creatures gather round the corpse: hyenas, jackals and vultures. They take some time to pluck up the courage to approach the body of an animal they feared to approach when it was alive. But eventually, they begin to take bites out of it, fighting and squabbling among themselves all the time.

Since the dead lion is no longer able to defend himself, the eaters of carrion now feel mighty brave and full of themselves. “Ha!” says the hyena to the jackal. “He’s not so great after all. You know, I was never afraid of him when he was alive.” “Neither was I”, says the jackal. “He was not as big as they all made out”. “Indeed not,” squawks the vulture, picking on a bone. “All those stories about King of the Jungle were just made up. Why, I was twice as good as him!”

Just at that point in this interesting conversation the growl of a lion is heard from a distance of about three miles. Immediately the whole noisy pack scatters squawking into the veldt (or the air) just as fast as their legs (or wings) can carry them.

Now, like every Aesopian fable, this one carries a moral, but before we come to that, and to introduce a more agreeable note into the proceedings, let me congratulate Revolutionary History on a splendid issue dedicated to my old friend and comrade, the late Pierre Broué. It was about time that the British Left paid tribute to this remarkable man, who was a dedicated revolutionary to the end of his days and surely the finest Marxist historian of the 20th century.

Unfortunately, this splendid issue was marred by the inclusion of a so-called obituary of Ted Grant by Tony Aitman. I do not wish to take up much space in your columns on this question. I will just say the following. When Ted Grant died two and a half years ago many obituaries were published in bourgeois papers, including The Guardian, The Times, The Financial Times, The Daily Telegraph and The Independent.

This fact alone demonstrates beyond the shadow of a doubt that this man, whether you agreed or disagreed with him, made a big mark on British politics. The impact of his ideas and work went far beyond the narrow confines of small left groupings and sects. The Militant Tendency – again, whether you agreed with it or not – made an impact on the Labour Movement in Britain that really has no parallel in history. And Ted Grant was the architect of all this. That is why he was taken seriously by the ruling class, as reflected in the coverage of his death.

Nowadays the Militant is a distant memory. It took many years to build, but surprisingly little time to destroy. The ultra-left trend led by Peter Taaffe took the tendency down a road that led to its complete destruction. People like Taaffe and Aitman argued that, by splitting from the Labour Party, Militant would “grow by leaps and bounds”. Like all the sects they were looking for a short cut. Ted warned them it would be a “short cut over a cliff” and who can deny today that he was right?

I say this, not in order to open a polemic with a group that I would not normally consider worthy of mention, but in order to make clear the real reasons for Tony Aitman’s venomous and completely inaccurate “obituary”. When Ted passed away, bourgeois papers wrote respectful obituaries that paid tribute to a man who had been their declared political enemy all his life. They paid tribute to his achievements. The Socialist Worker represents a tendency Ted had fought against ever since his polemics with Tony Cliff. But even they had the honesty and dignity to write a decent and respectful obituary.

The only discordant note was struck by Peter Taaffe, who wrote a scurrilous article, dripping with spite and malice from every line. So outrageous was this “obituary” that it scandalised members of his own organisation (the Socialist Party) some of whom conveyed their feelings to us. It is therefore sad to see that Revolutionary History, which has done so much to establish the historical truth about Trotsky and Trotskyists against Stalinist falsifications, should have published Aitman’s diatribe, which is on the same level as Taaffe’s wretched piece.

Let me make one thing clear here. I do not for a moment object to honest political criticism and serious debate of ideas. But this piece is neither of these things. It is a collection of anecdotes, allegedly “remembered” by Aitman (incidentally, an insignificant figure in Militant). There is no serious attempt to document any of these allegations, just “Ted said this” and “Ted did that”. In other words, it is mere gossip and tittle-tattle.

On Aitman’s alleged “differences” with Ted Grant, I do not need to say anything. But I will issue the following challenge. Can either Taaffe or Aitman produce a single document, article or resolution from the past thirty years inside the Militant where they ever expressed a single difference, doubt or even reservation about the political line of Ted Grant? No, they cannot. They cannot because such things do not exist.

Let them not come to us now saying: Yes, but in private I disagreed, and I said so to so-and-so. Serious history depends on written evidence, not hearsay; it requires clear statements, not whispering in corners. Which brings me back to Aesop and the African veldt. While Ted was still alive and in the leadership of Militant, they did not have the guts (or the political level) to contradict him. They all supported the ideas, perspectives and methods which they now claim to abhor.

Ted Grant is dead and cannot defend himself against slanders and calumny. As a man, Ted could sometimes be difficult. He was as stubborn as a mule, and this was one of his strong qualities. Some people felt offended by his manner. These were small men and women whose thin skins served to cover up a complete lack of any real substance. The truth is that they did not come up to his knees, but now he is no longer around, they are strutting around like giants. It is a sight that is as edifying as the one in our imaginary episode from Aesop.

But even now Ted has been shown to be right. If anyone doubts this just let them look at the results of the Socialist Party in the recent local elections and compare these with the time when we had three members of parliament and numerous councillors all over Britain. Despite all their efforts to re-write history, the facts speak against them, and facts, as we know, are stubborn things. For our part, we have no hard feelings. We have advanced by leaps and bounds since we parted company with them. And therefore we wish Peter Taaffe health, happiness and a long life. But when the day comes (as it must come to us all) when his obituary is finally written, its title is known in advance: The man who destroyed Militant.

It is a matter of deep regret that my friendship with Pierre began late, when he was already suffering from that illness that eventually ended his life. I was, of course, well acquainted with his works and greatly admired his books. For his part, Pierre followed Marxist.com and the work of our tendency with the keenest interest. We were on the same political wavelength and this political agreement eventually led to his adhering to the International Marxist Tendency.

I remember the first time Pierre contacted me in 2000 to ask for permission to translate my article The Real Story of Red October, which I willingly agreed to. However, indirectly I had been in contact with him long before through the medium of my good friend Esteban Volkov, Trotsky’s grandson. Esteban and Pierre were close friends for many years and he was keen that we should meet. We were both invited to Mexico to participate in a documentary on Trotsky’s life, but for certain reasons we did not coincide, but spoke on the telephone.

From that time on, we developed a friendship that lasted until Pierre’s tragic death. I visited him when he was in hospital in Grenoble, together with Greg Oxley, the editor of La Riposte, and he was delighted to see us. He said: “This is a new beginning for me in many ways."

He expressed his great admiration for Ted Grant and looked forward to meeting him as soon as his health permitted. Unfortunately, that was not to be. But he gave us an interview in which he gave a warm personal message to Ted. The visit had very important results. Pierre Broué agreed enthusiastically to collaborate with our Trotsky Project, which had just started to republish the works of Leon Trotsky.

I remained in phone contact with Pierre on a regular basis and he remained optimistic to the end. His collaboration with the IMT undoubtedly gave him a new lease of life. He frequently told me of his plans to work and write when he recovered. He was particularly enthusiastic about our work in Venezuela and showed his scorn for those sectarians who refused to see that there was a revolution there. He actively supported our Trotsky Project and promised to write for it. He was full of ideas, plans, and suggestions. Unfortunately, his death put an end to these plans.

Finally, it would be fitting to restate what Pierre Broué had to say about Ted Grant and the tendency he helped to create.

Interview by Alan Woods

Pierre Broué is internationally renowned for his tireless work as a historian of the international revolutionary movement. His histories of the Bolshevik Party, the Communist International, the Spanish Revolution, and above all his recent Life of Trotsky have been widely admired. His latest book on the Left Opposition is yet another major contribution by this outstanding Trotskyist writer, who has dedicated his life to the fight for international socialism.

Already as a young man, Pierre joined the French Resistance in the dark days of the Nazi occupation of France. He later became a militant of the Fourth International and remains a dedicated Trotskyist to this day. Unfortunately, recently he has not been in the best of health, and is convalescing in the picturesque foothills of the French Alps. I found him lively and alert, with a sharp and very Gallic sense of humour. His revolutionary spirit shines through in every sentence.

I first asked him about the forthcoming Trotsky Project, with which he intends to collaborate.

AW: What do you think about our project to republish the works of Leon Trotsky?

PB: The decision taken by In Defence of Marxism to republish the writings of Trotsky is an excellent initiative, to which I give my wholehearted support. The youth must rediscover the extraordinary revolutionary traditions of the past. The publication of My Life would be a good way to start to the project. It explains a great deal about Trotsky himself, about his ideas, and about the great events he lived through.

AW: I understand that you will be writing a Preface to the new edition of My Life.

PB: Of course! I will start work on it just as soon as I get back to my books.

AW: Your latest book is on the Left Opposition. Would you like to say something about that?

PB: This is a very important subject, and I believe that not enough attention is paid to it. It is very important that the young people in particular should know about it.

AW: I am afraid that this book has not been translated into English. In general not many of your books have been made available in English, and that is a great shame. I believe that in future we should publish them.

PB: That would be extraordinary.

AW: Yes, I am thinking particularly of your biography of Trotsky, which is a very good antidote to the rubbish of Deutscher.

Pierre gives an ironic gesture, rather like a man brushing aside a fly. I then asked him how he came into contact with our tendency. He replied:

PB: When I read your material on the In Defence of Marxism website, and on the website of La Riposte, I realised that we should have been in contact and that we should have been working together for a long time. I believe we are on the same wavelength politically. In terms of political analysis and theory, your tendency stands way above all the others. Unfortunately, now that we are finally meeting, I am rather ill, as you can see. I must get well as soon as I can. This is a new beginning for me in many ways.

AW: As you know, Ted Grant has just celebrated his ninetieth birthday. I wonder if you would like to say a few words to him?

PB: Certainly! Ted Grant is known to me for many years, of course. As we say in France, he seems to have been around since the days of Clovis! Unfortunately, I do not believe we have ever met, but we had a mutual friend in Raoul, who was a longstanding militant in the Trotskyist movement in France. He often spoke to me of Ted, and held him in very high esteem. However, for some reason, perhaps for fear of being accused of "factionalism" or whatever - that's the way things happen in the organisation to which we both belonged at that time - he never showed me any of Ted's written material.

Regrettably, I didn't make the effort to get in touch with him at the time. Only in the last few years I have been reading his material, which I found very interesting. Anyway, I am now very much looking forward to working together with your tendency. We must discuss politics, and methods of work, of course, and try to arrive at the fullest agreement. I believe this is quite possible.

To Ted himself, I would like to say:

"Ted, you were always a fighter. You have been struggling for many years. You have always defended revolutionary ideas. This was very important work, and you accomplished a great deal. At ninety years old, you are not a young man any more, but I think I might yet be attending your 100th birthday party!"

Grenoble, October 9, 2003.

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Militant’s Real History – a reply to Alan Woods
Peter Taaffe, General Secretary, Socialist Party, England and Wales

To paraphrase a Russian proverb: “An eagle can fly as low as a barnyard hen but a barnyard hen can never reach the height of an eagle.” Unfortunately, we are compelled to follow the “barnyard hen”, Alan Woods, once more into his murky barnyard. His “defence” of Ted Grant says little about Grant but all that needs to be said about the character of Woods himself and the organisation he leads. The International Marxist Tendency (IMT) is a cult which deifies the leadership, in this case one who is dead, and his living reincarnation, Alan Woods. Proof of this is the fact that the Pakistani section of the IMT, led by the notorious Lal Khan, incredibly inscribed on its prominent banners alongside Marx, Engels, Lenin and Trotsky the figure of Ted Grant while he was still alive! After his death, they continued with the practice. Yet even Fidel Castro, conscious of the baleful heritage of Stalinism and its ‘cult of personality’, sensibly prohibits in Cuba today the idolisation of himself on billboards and similar public displays. (Che Guevara’s image, on the other hand, is prominently displayed.)

The cult also personalises all differences, uses arguments which are devoid of politics or ideas, does not answer views different to its own but vilifies anyone who counters its views. This is on full display in relation to the history of Militant. This issue, in a sense, is an ‘exploded shell’. We have answered every one of Woods’ arguments, as well as those of Ted Grant, not after his death as Woods suggests but while Grant was alive. We are replying to them again now only because Woods cannot be allowed to succeed in his attempt to confuse and misinform even one new worker or youth about Militant’s real history as opposed to his fantasies.

Woods childishly declares that when Peter Taaffe’s obituary is “finally written, its title is known in advance: The man who destroyed Militant”! The truth is that it was the destructive role that Ted Grant and Alan Woods played, together with their ossified ideas, which undermined Militant. They and their supporters took the initiative for a split as we demonstrated in The Rise of Militant, Militant’s Real History, and all the documents from both sides in the disputes of the early 1990s at marxist.net (on the IMT website, only some selective documents appear). They conducted secret factional activities which they pursued unbeknown to us over a long period of time, the purpose of which was a naked attempt to grab power. Their very first proposal was the removal of Tony Saunois, who was the acting International Secretary of the CWI at the time, and a number of other individuals, who were to be ‘exiled’, in the case of Tony, to Chile! Their accusation of a “clique around Peter Taaffe” was laughed out of court. Only after their ‘organisational’ charges were fully answered and discredited did they shift gear and seek a political justification for their underhand methods.

Nevertheless, contrary to Woods’ highly personalised account, there was a political basis for the split in Militant. In the shallow method of Woods which has become his hallmark, is not an iota of politics; there is an absence of the Marxist materialist method. After all, Stalin and Stalinism’s triumph were explained by Trotskyists not subjectively but by objective phenomena: the isolation of the Russian revolution, the rise of the bureaucracy, etc. But this cult ascribes the ‘demise’ of Militant to one man, me. Was the collapse of the Revolutionary Communist Party in Britain in the post-1945 period down to one individual, Ted Grant or Gerry Healy? No! Did the split in the Russian Social Democratic Labour Party arise from Lenin personally? Was the isolation of revolutionaries in Russia between 1907 and 1911 due to ‘personal’ mistakes? Individuals play a part – sometimes crucially so – but the main cause is to be found in the change in the objective situation and how leaders, trends, etc., face up to them. No matter how correct or perspicacious the leaders may be, it is primarily the objective situation which led to the demise of the forces in the examples given above. The truth is a decline in Militant’s support was inevitable in that situation but we – the majority of Militant – faced up to it with a much clearer perspective than Woods and Grant.

The reality is that the majority of Militant rejected the outmoded method of analysis, pursued by Ted Grant with Woods in the rear, which flew in the face of the realities of the late 1980s and early 1990s. In a number of clashes – which we detail in Rise of Militant and which Grant never refuted when he was alive – Ted Grant was shown by us to be wrong. On Namibia, South Africa and the situation in Poland and other Stalinist states, we opposed Grant and were, moreover, proved to be correct. Along with Alan Woods and the latter’s present economic guru, Bob McKee, Ted Grant made a monumental ‘catastrophist’ blunder in characterising the 1987 financial crisis as leading “inevitably”, within six months, to a 1929-type situation. Lynn Walsh, I and others argued vehemently against him on this issue, as Woods well knows. In fact, Grant himself admitted he was wrong later, something entirely uncharacteristic of him in my experience of almost 30 years of collaboration up to 1991.

Woods asserts – in a quite ‘dazzling’ addition to Aesop’s fables – that we never opposed Grant in writing and have only plucked up courage to do so now after the ‘king’ has departed the scene. We have already replied to this spurious argument, as well as the claim that Grant was the only inheritor of Trotsky’s method. In 2002, when Ted Grant was still alive, we wrote:

“Grant claims justification for his role in the documents he wrote for the WIL and the RCP. We do not want to devalue the contribution that Grant made in the development of these ideas but the final formulations in documents do not tell the whole story of how ideas on perspectives, programme, tactics and strategy evolve within the leadership of a serious revolutionary organisation. In a viable organisation there is a constant process of dialogue and discussion. Who contributes what, where the ideas of one begin, and another end, is sometimes difficult to work out.

“Trotsky highlights this when commenting on the role of Plekhanov, ‘the father of Russian Marxism’, Axelrod and Zasulich, in the early Russian Marxist movement. He wrote the following: ‘Plekhanov and Zasulich lived generally in Geneva, Axelrod in Zurich. Axelrod concentrated on questions of tactics. He has not written a single theoretical or historical book, as is well known. He wrote very little, and what he wrote almost always concerned tactical questions of socialism. In this sphere Axelrod showed independence and acuteness. In numerous conversations with him – I was very friendly with him and Zasulich for some time – I had the clear impression that much of what Plekhanov has written on questions of tactics is a fruit of collective work, and that Axelrod’s part in it is considerably more important than one can prove from the printed document alone. Axelrod said more than once to Plekhanov, the undisputed and beloved leader of the ‘group’ (before the break in 1903): “George, you have a long snout, and take from everywhere what you need”.’ [On Lenin, by Leon Trotsky.]…

“Marxism is a science. But scientists, particularly in the modern era, learn from one another and share information in order to advance knowledge. This does not mean that amongst modern scientists there are not outstanding individuals. But the idea of teamwork, of the outstanding scientists building on the work of others, is accepted almost automatically. This kind of approach, however, is foreign to Grant – as evidenced by his book – and by his supporters, Woods and Sewell.” [Militant’s Real History.]

Unbelievably, while claiming theoretical superiority, they – Woods and Grant – displayed gross ignorance. This was evident in their weighty scientific contribution, Reason in Revolt. Peter Mason in his excellent critical review Science, Marxism and the Big Bang shows that they do not understand even basic scientific concepts such as what happens to boiling water. Pete Mason writes:

“Unlike Hegel and Engels, [Woods’] scientific knowledge is lacking. For instance, he states:

‘Until it reaches boiling point, the water keeps its volume. It remains water, because of the attraction of the molecules to one another.’

Reason in Revolt, p49

“But water does not ‘keep its volume’… If a liquid is heated it expands and its volume increases… it does not remain liquid because of the “attraction of the molecules to one another” but because of atmospheric pressure. Lower the atmospheric pressure sufficiently and the water will boil without any addition of heat.

“Woods then states that the volume between the atoms increases in water which is heated which, of course, must mean an increase of the volume of the water as a whole. He then attempts to describe boiling at the molecular level. He writes:

‘However, the steady change in temperature has the effect of increasing the motion of the molecules. The volume between the atoms is gradually increased, to the point where the force of attraction is insufficient to hold the molecules together.’

Reason in Revolt, p49

“But Woods has confused melting with boiling. In Dialectics of Nature, Engels discusses phase changes at the molecular level in great detail, but makes no such scientific errors (relative to his epoch, of course).”

Little wonder that a reviewer of Woods’ book could write in 1998:

“The history of science is a far more fascinating subject than this awful book would indicate. But its study requires integrity and honesty towards the subject matter. It cannot be chopped, tailed and stuffed into someone’s philosophic beanbag, as has been done here.

“To those who feel an urge to write an opus on the dialectics of nature, I would put before them the example of Barré St Venant. As a student at the École Polytechnique, he came under military command, and served as a sergeant of artillery. When called upon to fight for Napoleon in 1814, he stepped forward from the ranks and denounced Napoleon as a usurper. He was dismissed from the school as a deserter, but continued his scientific studies. He never published any books, but in his correspondence with and editorial work for others, he laid the foundations of the theory of elasticity. Today, when engineers design aeroplanes, machines and bridges, they call on the knowledge first given real coherence by this great scientist. Apart from his courage, integrity and mastery of his subject, I would most strenuously recommend his reluctance to write a book.”

As to any resentment at the superior ‘theoretician’ Woods, such sentiments could never occur to any of the leaders of Militant at the time or since. I, Lynn Walsh, Keith Dickinson, Clare Doyle and many other leaders of Militant wrote literally dozens, even hundreds, of articles in Militant and the Militant International Review on the theoretical aspects and processes within the trade unions, the General Strike, the Cultural Revolution in China, on Stalinism, the Portuguese Revolution, above all on the strategy and tactics of the mass movements around Liverpool and the poll tax.

These were not just individual contributions but the product of a democratic discussion and debate, and the result of the analysis of the collective leadership and the actions and campaigns that flowed from this. This is how we were able to successfully intervene, for instance, in the poll tax battle and in Liverpool.

“Ah, but this was when Ted Grant was able to correct Peter Taaffe and others.” Ted Grant was not to the fore in either the analysis of the poll tax or the Liverpool battles, or in the implementation of the ideas which flowed from this analysis. Sewell’s (and Woods’) extreme personality cult, as well as his lies and distortions, compel us to tell the truth. Sad to say, Grant never checked a line of many, if not most of these articles; my book on the French Revolution, for instance. Nevertheless, this is a constant theme in Grant’s book (History of British Trotskyism) and is applied not just to me. His first major collaborator, Ralph Lee, was a good bloke but ‘the theory’ was down to Grant himself. The same applied to Jock Haston and the whole leadership of the RCP, not just Healy but also Jimmy Deane, Pat Wall and everybody else except Ted Grant.

Woods now praises Revolutionary History but passes over what the late Al Richardson wrote about his and Grant’s roles: “There is its sectarian refusal to admit that any others since Trotsky can have made a theoretical contribution, and the arrogance with which their claims are dismissed. Isaac Deutscher ‘never understood Trotsky or his great contribution to Marxism’”. Richardson just dismisses Grant and Woods’ assertion that every group but themselves are ‘sects’ (they are, by the way, the smallest in Britain – PT) when he writes that they also originate in one of the “myriad sects on the fringes of the labour movement, as Woods so gracefully puts it.” He also states that the organisation of Grant and Woods “gains no credit by attempting to maintain the myth of his own infallibility.”

We concluded in Militant’s Real History:

“The truth is that Grant’s ideas were, originally, often totally unintelligible, incapable of being grasped unless rewritten for publication by his collaborators who invariably added to, not just the presentation, but the formulation of ideas as well.

The denunciations of others accompanied by the assertions of theoretical supremacy of Grant and Woods cut absolutely no ice in 1991 and even less so now given their theoretical incapacity during the difficult and complex period of history since then. They are now embarrassed to deal with the political issues under dispute in 1991.”

All the issues were debated and discussed openly and democratically in written form (check out both sides at marxist.net) and the minority led by Grant and Woods received 7% of the vote at a national congress of Militant. They were equally unsuccessful on the international plane with most of the sections of the Committee for a Workers’ International (CWI) supporting the majority. The split of 1991 was between an increasingly ossified conservative faction – Grant and Woods – who, amongst other things, wished to remain within a degenerating and ultimately bourgeoisified Labour Party and those who saw the need to create an independent organisation. If we had accepted their advice, the Socialist Party today would be as sterile and ineffective as Socialist Appeal is in Britain. Nobody takes them seriously – on the left or the right – either inside or outside the moribund Labour Party! They have no influence whatsoever in the trade unions and little amongst the youth. They are so out of touch with the workers’ movement in Britain and the role of the Socialist Party that they reprinted one of our leaflets – in Italian aimed at Italian workers and published by the Socialist Party – during the recent construction workers’ strike as “the authentic voice” of the workers’ movement in this dispute! It was “authentic” but it was written by Socialist Party supporters who played a key role in this dispute. They have also published an interview with Keith Gibson, a very effective leader of the strike, without once acknowledging that he was a member of “the sect” the Socialist Party!

Elsewhere, rather than going from ‘strength to strength’, as Woods asserts, they face splits, as in Pakistan, the USA and Mexico. In Pakistan this ‘democratic’ and ‘principled’ organisation has tried to resolve its differences through thuggery and armed clashes! Shamefully they have now established links with dissident republican groups in Ireland. The IMT website regularly - and always uncritically - publishes the material of these organisations, one of whom is notorious in Northern Ireland for its gangster methods that have included the torture and murder of its own members during splits and subsequent feuds.

Woods bemoans the loss of the three Militant MPs, which he ascribes to our “ultra-leftism”. He played no role in the selection, election or collaboration with these MPs. That was undertaken by others including myself and those on the leading bodies of Militant. Two of these MPs (Dave Nellist and Terry Fields) were removed as Labour MPs because of their principled stand in refusing to pay the poll tax (which Woods, Grant et al opposed them doing). The election of Manzoor Ahmed as an MP in Pakistan through the Pakistan Peoples’ Party (PPP) was supposed to justify ‘entrism’ into this bourgeois formation. This MP, who has since lost his seat, now opposes Woods and his voice in Pakistan Lal Khan, having gone over to the PPP leadership!

There is something of the political flunky in Alan Woods’ attitude towards the ‘great and good’ in contrast to those who he designates are ‘insignificant’. He is in awe of the fact that the Financial Times, the Daily Telegraph, the Independent et al comment on Ted Grant’s death. This is of the same order as his ecstatic reporting on his website that he was invited to share a car with Hugo Chávez on a breathtaking ride in Venezuela! In fact, the position of the IMT towards the Chávez government is the same kowtowing attitude, of ‘benevolent advisers’ rather than independent critics, that we, that is Ted Grant, myself, Woods himself and many others, criticised Ernest Mandel and the USFI for when they adopted the same approach towards Castro, Tito and Mao Ze Dong.

An entirely different attitude, however, is adopted towards the “insignificant” Tony Aitman. Woods is fooling nobody when he says: “I do not for a moment object to honest political criticism and serious debate of ideas.” He has made ‘scurrilous’ personal attacks whenever there is an attempt to criticise the ideas of himself and Ted Grant. Alan Woods’ comment on Tony Aitman is typical of his haughty approach of seeking to diminish the work of everyone apart from himself.

Woods was a student in Brighton – Militant was not founded in Brighton, as he tried to assert at the time of Ted Grant’s death – and then left for Bulgaria while we continued to labour building Militant from very small beginnings. Some time after returning, he became a regional organiser for Militant in South Wales – not the ‘first’ as he later tried to assert. He then decided to go to Spain and helped to build a group that did achieve a measure of success there, particularly with the 1986-87 student movement. This, however, followed the example set by the work of Militant in Britain, particularly in the 1985 school students strike. Using this as an example, a similar mass movement of students took place in Spain, out of which came the Spanish school students’ union. At no time did Woods recognise that this had been inspired by the work of comrades in Britain in the strikes of 1985. It was put down to his ‘unique’ role. The organisation created out of the Spanish movements – the school students union – is now a byword for bureaucratic practices and manipulation in Spain.

He did not play any major role in Britain in any of the major struggles which we led: Liverpool or the poll tax. Grant sometimes made blunders in the Liverpool struggle, as we detail in our reply to the slanders from this ‘sect’ in 2002, to which they never replied.

The same methods characterise Woods approach to the late Pierre Broué. Woods says he made contact with Broué in 2000. Yet earlier than this, after Broué had broken with the Lambertists, he contacted Militant. We never knew of this, however, until after Ted Grant and Alan Woods left our organisation in 1992. Only then did Keith Dickinson discover in an old desk of Ted Grant’s a letter from Pierre Broué, addressed to Ted Grant, asking for discussions with us. He never informed us of its existence nor passed it on to any other member of the leading bodies of Militant. Why Grant took this course of action is not clear but is probably connected with his usual fear that anybody – particularly veteran Trotskyists – who came within the orbit of Militant or joined our ranks would in some way act to dim his ‘star’. Woods uses the same uncritical hyperbole towards Broué as he does towards Ted Grant. Broué wrote some important works on history – on the German and Spanish revolutions in particular – but “the finest Marxist historian of the 20th century”? His history of the German revolution is particularly useful, but is not on the same plane as Trotsky’s History of the Russian Revolution. It is more of a narrative, with less generalisation, than Trotsky’s work but is nevertheless important for understanding the German revolution.

But those who know Alan Woods and his work know of his tendency towards flattery matched by absolute disdain of those deigned to be ‘below’ him – particularly if it means he can ingratiate himself to those above. Militant was not “destroyed”. The majority continued with its work, albeit under a different name, the Socialist Party in England and Wales. The Committee for a Workers’ International continued its work internationally, with now 35 national sections and a presence on every continent. The Weekly Worker, no supporter of the Socialist Party, recently commented in passing about “the largest sections of the organised left in Scotland and, indeed, Britain as a whole – the SWP and the CWI”. In this connection nobody would even think about mentioning Woods’ supporters in Britain or worldwide; they are invisible in demonstrations, in the trade unions, amongst students, etc.

Alan Woods’ methods will be exposed to even the small circles he manages to influence in the stormy events that impend worldwide. This attempt to hide behind the authority of Ted Grant will not save him and his organisation from the revenge of history, which his false political perspectives and organisation makes inevitable. We, for our part, have given and will continue to give due honour to the contribution that Ted Grant made but we will also point out his deficiencies and mistakes, not in order to score points or denigrate in the manner of Woods, but to seek to learn from them, thus helping to strengthen the Marxist and Trotskyist movement.

All the documents in the dispute between the CWI and the IMT can be found at marxist.net

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[B]Reply to Woods from Tony Aitman

I was shocked to read the “reply” from Alan Woods to my obituary to Ted Grant. Shocked because, whatever political differences existed, I have always had a certain respect for Woods’ capabilities; shocked because I could not believe the depths to which this individual has degenerated. His “reply” goes far beyond the issue of an obituary, but raises the whole question of the Marxist method, the role of the individual and the history of Marxism and Trotskyism in the post war period.

Woods argues that the obituary was “venomous” and “inaccurate”. I can find no venom in the obituary – indeed, I tried to paint Ted Grant as a brilliant, if flawed, human being. As for inaccuracies – where? Woods raises not one issue that it is inaccurate. Woods repeats more than once that differences need to be on paper – time and again, from before the split with Grant and after, in documents and in Peter Taaffe’s History of Militant, the Socialist Party has published the documents, the minutes of meetings that detail the differences and the arguments, such as Woods’ own position on the national question, the issue of the Soviet Union, and so on. Woods argues that myself and others were too frightened to oppose Ted while he was alive. I am certain that others can speak for themselves; however, Woods clearly has not even read the obituary he is claiming to criticise. In it, I write that Ted always called me Thomas, Doubting Thomas, from something I disagreed with him over. But that is a minor issue: where does Woods answer a single issue raised in the obituary, over the Open Party Faction, the Iraq War, Black Monday, the collapse of the Soviet Union? Where does Woods’ defend his group’s craven fawning at the feet of Chavez?

Woods’ superior and condescending tone is a disgrace for someone supposedly calling themselves Marxist. Even in his bitterest attacks on the Stalinists, Trotsky never sank to the level plumbed by Woods, but raised the issues always from a political point of view. Yet here is the great lecturer deigning to come down from his mount to actually speak to the lower orders. I am far from dressing up my role in anything, but to call any one in the movement "insignificant" is outrageous. Any one who has played a part in the revolutionary movement should be applauded for that - but for someone like myself with over 45 years activity to be called "insignificant" is appalling. My history speaks for itself: joining the movement aged 16 in 1965, going to Liverpool, shop steward in one of the largest engineering factories at 19, member of the joint shop stewards committee during the attempted workers’ occupation of the factory, member of the LPYS National Committee for 5 years, actively involved in building the Militant in one of the most important areas of the country for which I was one of the first expelled from the Labour Party after the removal of the Militant Editorial Board; helped develop Militant’s first publishing venture, which included Ted Grant’s selected writings; a key figure in the rebuilding of the Socialist Party in Liverpool after the Merseyside split; in the forefront of the recent campaigns for freedom of speech in Liverpool: this is not an “insignificant” role to play in the building of the revolutionary party. One must presume that, in Woods’ mind, my role was not as “significant” as his, a “significance” which most Socialist Party members who were active in those years would find it hard to pinpoint. Clearly, Woods must believe that, to use his Aesopean analogy, the roar of the great lion in the distance causing all to quake and shiver must be none other than Woods himself.

And the only political issue which Woods can raise is that the Socialist Party is not such an important force today as it was when Ted was in the leadership of the party. I note that Woods is silent on our influence on Trade Union executives; still, facts are stubborn things. Still, he compares the “complete destruction” of Militant to the “leaps and bounds” by which his own group has advanced. I cannot speak for the rest of the country, but “leaps and bounds” on Merseyside? Compare the tiny gathering that commemorated Ted’s passing in Liverpool to the packed hall that came to celebrate the life of Terry Fields, addressed by Peter Taaffe, Dave Nellist and others. All Woods can do is repeat the old canard that Peter Taaffe was responsible for the "collapse" of Militant - nothing to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union, the defeat of the miners, the degeneration of the Labour Party, etc. Objective conditions mean nothing to Woods: it is all down to the thoughts of one man. Trotsky did not even take this line with Stalin, for all his crimes, but pointed to the objective conditions facing Russia after the death of Lenin. Woods, though, has lost the Marxist method.

One final uncomfortable fact for Woods concerning his good friend Broué. One of Ted Grant’s less appealing features was his complete dismissal of anyone who did not agree with him. Thus, Broué’s important works, for example on the history of the German revolutions, were dismissed out of hand by Grant. It is a fact that Broué wrote to Ted Grant, indicating that a meeting to discuss joint work would be welcomed. This letter was kept secret from the rest of Militant, and only found amongst Ted’s papers when he left. Why? One can only presume because Ted could not admit the fact that an old adversary could have something unique to contribute to the movement.

I have no apologies if this is an over-long reply. History is a strange animal; for some, history is an end in itself, and they gain pleasure from its reading and learning. For the Marxist activist, however, it is linked to the present, a guide to activity, a pointer to the future. This demands an analytical questioning of the history of any of us who claim to be leaders of the movement. If, in doing this in order to get the record straight, some uncomfortable facts about Ted Grant were raised, again I make no apologies. I am quite happy to debate the political issues with Woods; unfortunately, he makes none.

Q
21st March 2009, 09:55
I must say, I'm a defender of leftist unity and find minimal differences between the IMT and CWI on many issues (although some key differences are highlighted in the document aswell) and was having a position that we should cooperate more than we do. But given this rather vile personal attack by Woods on longstanding comrades, I'm inclined to review that position.

This is not the first time I hear such bullocks coming from the IMT corner either. I first assumed that honest mistakes were being made due to lack of communication. I see now that this is clearly not the case. It is sad that the IMT is built on these ideas.

Die Neue Zeit
21st March 2009, 10:02
The history of Militant can be summed up by two things:

1) Class collaborationism; and
2) Definitive exposure of the inherent economism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/transitional-program-updated-t99491/index.html) in Trotsky's Transitional Program, especially given the spin on its implementation by Labour.

Yehuda Stern
21st March 2009, 10:14
I remember quite clearly Woods' sharp analysis of the CWI-IMT split: "Peter Taaffe and some other just went mad one day!" Obviously, Woods has an interest in obscuring the real reasons for Militant's collapse. Then again, so does Taaffe. Both want to deny that their British chauvinism, expressed in Militant's support for Britain in the Malvinas, as well as their actions in Liverpool, demoralized and disillusioned their supporters.

Q
21st March 2009, 10:17
I must say, you guys are fast readers. It takes me considerable more time to read through 10 pages A4 text. If you did read it at all of course.

Yehuda Stern
21st March 2009, 10:47
Is this piece of poorly attempted sarcasm supposed to serve as an answer to what we said?

bolchevique
21st March 2009, 11:08
This debate is finished and the results are cristal clear, The Spanish section El militante followed the ideas of ted and woods and now we can talk about facts and results. The result is the following after more than 16 year of the split our organization is Spain is stronger than before and we have created the organization in most American countries, we have new sections in Africa, Europe and Asia.The taffist in Britain destroyed the organization of more than 8000 comrades in Britain , this is a fact , you can deny th reality. How many occupation of factory are leading the taffist in the world ?just to mention some leading by our comrades Mitsibushi, Vivex in Venezuela , Olympia in Mexico, Flasko in Brazil, These are facts , but this doesn't mean that in the future we can have problems, the growing of the organization is dialectical. I can tell you at the beginning of the split in 90 I thought they would get something but the disaster has been beyond my expectation and they told us the scottish turn was the road to the great leap , but it was leap to the abys

Rosa Lichtenstein
21st March 2009, 11:14
Rather large waves for such a small pond...

benhur
21st March 2009, 11:16
Rather large waves for such a small pond...

You're beginning to sound like a mystic yourself.;) Congratulations!

Yehuda Stern
21st March 2009, 12:15
bolchevique, Grantists often use the ridiculous and inflated claims of their leaders about the IMT's strength to avoid any serious debate on its history and politics. However, that doesn't help. You only impress yourself with such dubious "statistics."

Tower of Bebel
21st March 2009, 17:53
I don't like the history of the split. There's too much discussion about who destroyed what and not about how this could ever happen.

This debate is finished and the results are cristal clear, The Spanish section El militante followed the ideas of ted and woods and now we can talk about facts and results. The result is the following after more than 16 year of the split our organization is Spain is stronger than before and we have created the organization in most American countries, we have new sections in Africa, Europe and Asia.The taffist in Britain destroyed the organization of more than 8000 comrades in Britain , this is a fact , you can deny th reality. How many occupation of factory are leading the taffist in the world ?just to mention some leading by our comrades Mitsibushi, Vivex in Venezuela , Olympia in Mexico, Flasko in Brazil, These are facts , but this doesn't mean that in the future we can have problems, the growing of the organization is dialectical. I can tell you at the beginning of the split in 90 I thought they would get something but the disaster has been beyond my expectation and they told us the scottish turn was the road to the great leap , but it was leap to the abys
I hope you're not lying like CyM did when he wrote about "mass protests" of 500 people organized by comrades of the IMT in Pakistan.

bolchevique
21st March 2009, 18:46
I don't say that we are a mass organization, we have a long road to walk, I don't say that we cannot make mistakes, that obviously we made,and will probably make,but we try to learn from our mistakes, and recognize that certain thing could have been done better, but our ideas and the education of our cadres and the attitude towards the traditional working class organization is correct,as a result of this,a very tiny group after of people in the 90, swimming against the current or tide (Spanish), not only we didn't disappear, but we achieve a lot of things, Yehuda has certainly a enormous capacity to slander, but he never mention any work of his organization in the worker movement, and the information which I give are facts, we are a small organization compare with the traditional working class parties, but we are doing great things as I mentioned previously, our result in refundazione comunista, French communist party, The BPJ in El Salvador lead by the marxist, are crude fact, but probably in the future we'll have setback, an example of setback could be here in Malaga we are the the leader of the union biggest hotel in Malaga Puente Romano in Marbella with 400 workers,now the bosses are attacking and sacking workers, and by threatening the workers, our position is in minority, the bosses tried to sack the leader by election and we won by close shave in a referendum, but these comrades are revolutionaries and they must learn from the situation and have patient and method to convince the workers to fightback, these comrades are real heroes of the working class, like in Mitsibushi, flasko or Olympia

Wanted Man
21st March 2009, 18:54
Apologies for interjecting with an outside point of view, but why the need to keep sniping at each other? You could both do good stuff by devoting all that time and all those dead trees to other things than new books about "who destroyed the Militant" (simply put, the majority, I suppose).

So CWI can say: "We got the majority and we can move on from those stuffy liquidationists."
And IMT can say: "We've got our work in the unions and reformist parties, so we don't have to deal with the ultra-leftists anymore."

What else is there to be said?

Sam_b
21st March 2009, 19:08
I don't see why the CWI bother with responding to some vitriol thrown at them by a pretty insignificant tendency. Or are both sides so insecure that they feel they had to prove that they were 'right' in their split?

Most workers couldn't give a damn about stuff like this. I guess you should be proving your point by winning workers over.

Pogue
21st March 2009, 20:35
Why are you even bothering with such pathetic playground nonsense when the left is in such a pitiful position nationally and globally at the moment? I don't understand how you could be so immersed in left wing ghetto politics. Just move on. Aren't you all Trots anyway?

pastradamus
21st March 2009, 20:49
Im sick of these splits and holes in the left. We are in a terrible state in Britain and Alan Woods is not helping anyone.

Exploited
21st March 2009, 23:56
People can write 10 page texts, use fancy words and try to show that they are saying the truth in various ways and with many techniques, which are both old and well-known.
But the facts remain facts.
1)Ted Grant and Alan Woods were expelled.
2) When the hot-headed leading sections of the Militant decided to leave the Labour Party pressed the self-destruct button.
The truth is that the bourgeoisie can afford to laugh at sectarian groupings like the SWP, the IBT and the rest of the sects. But they were mortally afraid of the Militant. Now the "SPEW" has turned itself to another sectarian grouping like the others, who for decades now are rotting in the sidelines.

Let me paraphrase Lenin and say that the Marxists should separate themselves from the rotting corpse of the Social-Democracy, only when they can take with them the biggest possible section of the working class with them.

Such conditions did not exist when the Taaffite clique decided to make this ultra left turn and experience has manifested this. The SPEW has decreased massively both in numbers and influence within the working class movement.

Die Neue Zeit
22nd March 2009, 01:45
I prefer a modern, non-class-collaborationist interpretation of Marx on the subject:


In what relation do the Communists stand to the proletarians as a whole?

The Communists do not form a separate party opposed to the other [politico-ideologically independent] working-class parties.

The social-corporatist Labour party, contrary to the assertions of class-collaborationist apologists on the "left," isn't such a party, even when compared to Lassalle's organization in the 19th century:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/trots-why-party-t100755/index.html?p=1348889


They have no interests separate and apart from those of the [politico-ideologically independent] proletariat as a whole.

They do not set up any sectarian principles of their own, by which to shape and mould the [politico-ideologically independent] proletarian movement.

PRC-UTE
22nd March 2009, 02:55
This debate is finished and the results are cristal clear, The Spanish section El militante followed the ideas of ted and woods and now we can talk about facts and results. The result is the following after more than 16 year of the split our organization is Spain is stronger than before and we have created the organization in most American countries, we have new sections in Africa, Europe and Asia.The taffist in Britain destroyed the organization of more than 8000 comrades in Britain , this is a fact , you can deny th reality. How many occupation of factory are leading the taffist in the world ?just to mention some leading by our comrades Mitsibushi, Vivex in Venezuela , Olympia in Mexico, Flasko in Brazil, These are facts , but this doesn't mean that in the future we can have problems, the growing of the organization is dialectical. I can tell you at the beginning of the split in 90 I thought they would get something but the disaster has been beyond my expectation and they told us the scottish turn was the road to the great leap , but it was leap to the abys

I dont know bout the rest of this, but I know it's true the IMT has a decent and very active section in Spain.

Die Neue Zeit
22nd March 2009, 03:56
As far as I know (again, with my limited knowledge of Spain), the only decent work the IMT has done is in Venezuela. Their work in Pakistan is an utter and blatantly class-collaborationist joke.

Yehuda Stern
22nd March 2009, 08:50
The truth is that the bourgeoisie can afford to laugh at sectarian groupings like the SWP, the IBT and the rest of the sects. But they were mortally afraid of the Militant.They were when it was big - and they are also "mortally afraid" of the SWP now that it's big, or I should say, still big. See, while both Militant and the SWP were centrist groups, the SWP was more dynamic, so it managed to last longer. Either, it's ridiculous to hear a member of the IMT, a group which after decades of work in the Labour party is still a meaningless, tiny sect, call the SWP a "sect" when it dwarfes it in size, if not in theory and politics.


As far as I know (again, with my limited knowledge of Spain), the only decent work the IMT has done is in Venezuela. Their work in Pakistan is an utter and blatantly class-collaborationist joke.

You're right about Pakistan, but even their claims on Venezuela are wildly exaggerated. They have only a few dozen members there, after a group they opportunistically fused with split from them a couple of years ago.

Holden Caulfield
22nd March 2009, 09:50
The IMT should re-join the CWI, I hope they will when/if unions start to disaffiliate from the Labour Party, this could easily happen.
What would stop it from happening would be the ego and bravado of the 'leadership' of the IMT, and the animosity towards them of the 'leadership' of the CWI.

Wanted Man
22nd March 2009, 10:48
People can write 10 page texts, use fancy words and try to show that they are saying the truth in various ways and with many techniques, which are both old and well-known.
But the facts remain facts.
1)Ted Grant and Alan Woods were expelled.
2) When the hot-headed leading sections of the Militant decided to leave the Labour Party pressed the self-destruct button.
The truth is that the bourgeoisie can afford to laugh at sectarian groupings like the SWP, the IBT and the rest of the sects. But they were mortally afraid of the Militant. Now the "SPEW" has turned itself to another sectarian grouping like the others, who for decades now are rotting in the sidelines.

Let me paraphrase Lenin and say that the Marxists should separate themselves from the rotting corpse of the Social-Democracy, only when they can take with them the biggest possible section of the working class with them.

Such conditions did not exist when the Taaffite clique decided to make this ultra left turn and experience has manifested this. The SPEW has decreased massively both in numbers and influence within the working class movement.
For some reason, I can't give reputation points to this cliché-spewing robot, but that's exactly what it is. It's utterly hilarious that all these people are taught from the beginning on to have a burning hatred for "the sects". I can't help but wonder what you'd do to them if you'd somehow get into power. It's just a completely ridiculous designation.

bolchevique
22nd March 2009, 11:48
IMT should re-join the CWI, I hope they will when/if unions start to disaffiliate from the Labour Party, this could easily happen.

I think you don't understand our ideas or methods , if this situation occured we we moved witn the union, but we will never do if to pretend to be a working class party even if we are 10.000 , and this was the mistake they thought they were very strong and they split in the worst moment ,maybe after few year of labour party, and with experience of the new labour , if it would have been wiser, but it was a tottal madness did th split in that moment.we dont make a dogma about labour party, socialist party or comunist parties, but we try to connect with the working class and even when this organization are empty, millions of workers consider these organizations are theirs, and it's easier for them to hear you, here the grouplets hate the unions cc.oo and ugt because are controlled by burocracy, and accuse us of being part of this which is a honour, in the article of taff attack the student unions which is the same argument of all this group which attack us, in Spain there is a very serious national problem, and the nationalist are very strong in the Basque country, Galice and Cataluña, also other minor nationalist movements even in castilla, but despite these enormous difficulties we have organizations in all these regions, and we are accused of being Spanish, but we say we are Internationalist and they try no to give the right of expressing our opinion in the students meeting, because they are afraid of our internationalist ideas and the unity of the working class, so taff may be support this petit-bourgois movement which wants to split the working class,for instance if there is a national strike they organize in a diferent day, because for them the unity of the working class is a danger

Tower of Bebel
22nd March 2009, 12:42
Let me paraphrase Lenin and say that the Marxists should separate themselves from the rotting corpse of the Social-Democracy, only when they can take with them the biggest possible section of the working class with them.

Such conditions did not exist when the Taaffite clique decided to make this ultra left turn and experience has manifested this. The SPEW has decreased massively both in numbers and influence within the working class movement.You should write an essay: "Lenin out of context". As if it were ever that easy to adopt tactics from the past. You write "[...] only when they can take with them the biggest possible section of the working class with them"? The necessary conditions for such an action (even in the long term) do not exist. Lenin was talking about workers' parties with a reformist leadership, not about bourgeois parties.

Anyway, this crisis might prove to be decisive for the future of both tendencies.

KC
22nd March 2009, 17:58
I don't see why the CWI bother with responding to some vitriol thrown at them by a pretty insignificant tendency. Or are both sides so insecure that they feel they had to prove that they were 'right' in their split?

Actually I'd say that they're about equally as significant and isolated from any real workers' movement.


The IMT should re-join the CWI, I hope they will when/if unions start to disaffiliate from the Labour Party, this could easily happen.

I've said this many times, but the left will only start coming together when a significant movement of the working class develops, and even at that time it will only be reluctantly, with most "socialists" kicking and screaming all the way.


IMT should re-join the CWI, I hope they will when/if unions start to disaffiliate from the Labour Party, this could easily happen.

I think you don't understand our ideas or methods , if this situation occured we we moved witn the union, but we will never do if to pretend to be a working class party even if we are 10.000 , and this was the mistake they thought they were very strong and they split in the worst moment ,maybe after few year of labour party, and with experience of the new labour , if it would have been wiser, but it was a tottal madness did th split in that moment.we dont make a dogma about labour party, socialist party or comunist parties, but we try to connect with the working class and even when this organization are empty, millions of workers consider these organizations are theirs, and it's easier for them to hear you, here the grouplets hate the unions cc.oo and ugt because are controlled by burocracy, and accuse us of being part of this which is a honour, in the article of taff attack the student unions which is the same argument of all this group which attack us, in Spain there is a very serious national problem, and the nationalist are very strong in the Basque country, Galice and Cataluña, also other minor nationalist movements even in castilla, but despite these enormous difficulties we have organizations in all these regions, and we are accused of being Spanish, but we say we are Internationalist and they try no to give the right of expressing our opinion in the students meeting, because they are afraid of our internationalist ideas and the unity of the working class, so taff may be support this petit-bourgois movement which wants to split the working class,for instance if there is a national strike they organize in a diferent day, because for them the unity of the working class is a danger

You're irrelevant, as is your meaningless sect.

Die Neue Zeit
22nd March 2009, 19:17
You should write an essay: "Lenin out of context". As if it were ever that easy to adopt tactics from the past. You write "[...] only when they can take with them the biggest possible section of the working class with them"? The necessary conditions for such an action (even in the long term) do not exist. Lenin was talking about workers' parties with a reformist leadership, not about bourgeois parties.

Anyway, this crisis might prove to be decisive for the future of both tendencies.

Lenin was trying to make up for the grievous "liquidation" of the USPD in which the Bolsheviks had a role. ;)

bolchevique
27th March 2009, 23:38
Here you have an answer to the lies of taff and company, you can see the congress of struggle the section of the IMT with 2000 delegates with photos these are facts,and this also for yehuda whose faVourite hobby is splitpotting ,he'll be very disapointed , http://www.marxist.com/pakistan-congress-2009.htm

Louis Pio
31st March 2009, 23:26
I haven't read Aitman's piece and it's not online so I won't really judge that, anyone has a link to it? It's not online on the revolutionary history website.
However Taaffes "obituary" really is one of the most malicious pieces of shit and spite I have ever read, even other groups commented on that, and those CWI members who attended the funeral were quite ashamed of it.

Anyway I think the link Bolshevique posted, shows that alot of people should try not to build their arguments on rumours they heard through the grapewine. It will just make them sad when their wishfull thinking turns out to be... well wishfull thinking.

Herman
1st April 2009, 01:18
Who thinks it's amusing to watch trots fight it out?

Maybe I should organize a "trot" fight (in the same way you'd organize an illegal cock fight).

I wonder how denouncing each other's leadership aids the socialist movement.

Matina
1st April 2009, 01:43
This is a shame for both Taaffe and Woods. It is also ridiculous for you people to start this cockfight on a forum. Go build your respective organizations and don't be like sectarian babies. It is healthy to debate ideas, because only in this way we are able to advance our theoretical level. But this whole thing is personal attacks, rumors and mud.

Yehuda Stern
1st April 2009, 05:37
Maybe I should organize a "trot" fight (in the same way you'd organize an illegal cock fight).

'Cause when you have to explain your jokes, you know they're really funny.

Also, bravo to everyone saying that debates among leftists don't really belong to a leftist debate forum.

bolchevique
1st April 2009, 11:16
[
QUOTE=Herman;1400038]Who thinks it's amusing to watch trots fight it out?
Comrade Herman the debate between the taffist and us was and is a crucial debate,because this is main difference between the IMT and the rest of tendency which vindicates trosky or Lenin. The orientation towards the working class organizations and the way of building the revolutionary party is not a trivial question if we want to fight for the socialist Revolution, to make this mistake is a real disaster for the working class, now in Venezuela certain groups which they say they are troskist like Chirino and others appear together with the mafia and facist oposition , and that's because their attitude towards PSUV . Therefore this debate is dead or life debate for the future of the revolution for everybody who wants to figth for the victory of socialism

Herman
1st April 2009, 19:34
Comrade Herman the debate between the taffist and us was and is a crucial debate,because this is main difference between the IMT and the rest of tendency which vindicates trosky or Lenin. The orientation towards the working class organizations and the way of building the revolutionary party is not a trivial question if we want to fight for the socialist Revolution, to make this mistake is a real disaster for the working class, now in Venezuela certain groups which they say they are troskist like Chirino and others appear together with the mafia and facist oposition , and that's because their attitude towards PSUV . Therefore this debate is dead or life debate for the future of the revolution for everybody who wants to figth for the victory of socialism

This debate is not so much about building revolutionary organizations or working in prole organizations and more about denouncing each other's past events.

"Your leader/organization did this, and mine didn't. Therefore we are the true revolutionaries and followers of Trotsky!".

Tower of Bebel
1st April 2009, 19:54
Shouldn't you people be discussing program and tactics instead of judging each other by the numbers?

Yehuda Stern
1st April 2009, 20:43
Shouldn't you people be discussing program and tactics instead of judging each other by the numbers?

All Grantists' eyes open wide, as if someone suggested renouncing Marxism or working outside Labour.

Louis Pio
1st April 2009, 22:18
Sorry Yehuda but your post makes no sense whatsoever

Yehuda Stern
2nd April 2009, 06:03
I know, isn't it crazy? To suggest that groups shouldn't bicker about size but actually discuss political issues? Crazy.

Matina
2nd April 2009, 12:38
What's Yehuda Stern's problem? He sound like a Spartacist. And that's really annoying...

benhur
2nd April 2009, 17:01
I know, isn't it crazy? To suggest that groups shouldn't bicker about size but actually discuss political issues? Crazy.

I wonder if you're an automaton that spots flaws in everyone and everything, no matter how trivial those flaws are?

Yehuda Stern
2nd April 2009, 22:25
What's Yehuda Stern's problem?My problem is when one meaningless centrist sect refuses to actually engage in a debate with another meaningless centrist sect because it has 2 more members than it and considers that to be all the legitimacy it needs. My problem is when people complain and whine when left groups openly debate issues and discuss their difference, and call that "sectarianism," while if someone holds a position that offends one of their holy cows - some reformist party or other, Chavez, Castro, etc. - they automatically call him an "ultra-left" and refuse to discuss with him. My problem is that all this is happening on a left-wing debate forum, not on a left-wing care bear forum. Most of all, my problem is with people how don't say anything remotely interesting or important about a subject, but feel free to just rush ahead with ignorant remarks regarding just about anything.

Oh, speak of the devil...


I wonder if you're an automaton that spots flaws in everyone and everything, no matter how trivial those flaws are? benhur, I realize you have a hurt ego from all the times you've failed to make one coherent argument in a debate. Still, even with that emotional cargo, it should be pretty simple to realize - even for you - that refusing to debate politics because of relative size to another group, no matter how small, is not a "trivial" flaw.

Matina
3rd April 2009, 04:01
My problem is when one meaningless centrist sect refuses to actually engage in a debate with another meaningless centrist sect because it has 2 more members than it and considers that to be all the legitimacy it needs. My problem is when people complain and whine when left groups openly debate issues and discuss their difference, and call that "sectarianism," while if someone holds a position that offends one of their holy cows - some reformist party or other, Chavez, Castro, etc. - they automatically call him an "ultra-left" and refuse to discuss with him. My problem is that all this is happening on a left-wing debate forum, not on a left-wing care bear forum. Most of all, my problem is with people how don't say anything remotely interesting or important about a subject, but feel free to just rush ahead with ignorant remarks regarding just about anything.

Oh, speak of the devil...

How are the IMT and the CWI centrist sects? The sect part I can understand (although in some cases it is doubtful that they are sects), but the centrist part I can't understand. Do they waver between reformism and revolution? I don't think so. Both of them have revolutionary rhetoric and so far they have not been in test by revolutionary conditions, therefore you cannot call them centrist. These allegations, which are not based on facts, but on "an idea" are that make me wonder... what your problem is.

Is this how your idea of a debate is? If so let me say. The International Socialist League is a bunch of sectarian hippies. There you go a debate of your kind has just started ...

If you want to have a debate about the ideas of those organizations, which I by all means encourage, as debate is a great school for revolutionaries, then hold back on mindless accussations and say something that could lead to a constructive debate about the ideas expressed by the internationals in subject.

Louis Pio
3rd April 2009, 08:07
I know, isn't it crazy? To suggest that groups shouldn't bicker about size but actually discuss political issues? Crazy.


And here I was under the impression that you were very concerned with numbers, considering your gleefull joy over the alleged "giant split" in our Pakistani section (a history that turned out to be as empty as a fart).

Btw of course numbers are important to a certain extent, but more so what activity the members do. A big party can be irrelevant, and a smaller group can have alot of political weight if it's members are leaders in various movements and unions.

Yehuda Stern
3rd April 2009, 11:09
Both of them have revolutionary rhetoric and so far they have not been in test by revolutionary conditions, therefore you cannot call them centrist.

Incorrect. While there hasn't been an out and out revolutionary situation in Britain, in every single test - a war by their ruling class (Malvinas), revolutions worldwide (Portugal, Venezuela) - both the IMT and CWI took centrist positions. There's no reason to assume that under a more serious and closer to home situation, they would act any better.


These allegations, which are not based on facts, but on "an idea" are that make me wonder... what your problem is.

But what I was criticizing the IMT for was for the argument that since they're bigger (something which I'm really not sure of, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt), they don't really need to respond to CWI criticisms, which their members have used here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1390662&postcount=7). I think that's a pretty good 'fact' right there. So, seeing as you didn't really read the thread before your knee-jerk response, maybe you should go ahead and... read the thread.


And here I was under the impression that you were very concerned with numbers, considering your gleefull joy over the alleged "giant split" in our Pakistani section (a history that turned out to be as empty as a fart).

It wasn't gleeful joy, really - it was just great poetic justice. Your group has been parading it's supposedly huge Marxist group in Pakistan to justify why it won't debate its ideas with any of the "sects," and it collapsed like the house of cards it was. The only reason why that "history" was "as empty as fart" is because the whole history of your Pakistani section was.

bolchevique
3rd April 2009, 12:24
[QUOTE]
Shouldn't you people be discussing program and tactics instead of judging each other by the numbers?

I think after aperiod of more than fifteen years ,and the two ideas has been tested in the working class movement, it's the moment of checking the results and see according to the results which is the tendency which has increased its influence among the working class, and the results are cristal clear,it's no a question of showing off numbers, but it's the real result of our ideas. Taffist in the 90s repeated again and again that as soon as we appeared as an independent organization we would grow by thousands (leaps and bounds ), they said in the 90s and they say now that the socialist and comunist parties are burgoise parties, the reason for this change in 90s is diffulcut to understand , how this happened overnight and only taff and his followers knew, and yehuda sometimes is so funny and weird, about the "revolution thing" in Britain in the Malvinas war, he is unbelievable,I can understand now clearly his enormous confusion about most things

Louis Pio
3rd April 2009, 14:10
and it collapsed like the house of cards it was.

Collapsed? I see you live in a parallel reality.
http://picasaweb.google.com/international.marxist.tendency/TheStruggleCongress2009#

But yes I think it's most important fighting against the people in power and trying to reach the mass of people, than debating various left groups. Of course debate can be extremely developing, but only if the starting point is constructive. The hysteric approach one can find on the left and of which you are a proponant, is not my cup of tea.
Of course if one just live in that bobble that the "left millieu" sometimes is, I can see the most important thing is debating each other and denouncing everyone as "pabloite", "centrist" and so on. After all it's more comfortable in the cozy little bobble than in the big bad world.


Incorrect. While there hasn't been an out and out revolutionary situation in Britain, in every single test - a war by their ruling class (Malvinas), revolutions worldwide (Portugal, Venezuela) - both the IMT and CWI took centrist positions. There's no reason to assume that under a more serious and closer to home situation, they would act any better.


Would you like to elaborate? Or are arguments scorned in that parallel universe you seem to inhabit?

Matina
3rd April 2009, 15:28
Incorrect. While there hasn't been an out and out revolutionary situation in Britain, in every single test - a war by their ruling class (Malvinas), revolutions worldwide (Portugal, Venezuela) - both the IMT and CWI took centrist positions. There's no reason to assume that under a more serious and closer to home situation, they would act any better.

Prove it! And I don't want you purposely "misunderstanding" their position, just so you can score some points. All this bullshit reminds me of the RSL criticizing Trotsky's PMP.


But what I was criticizing the IMT for was for the argument that since they're bigger (something which I'm really not sure of, but let's give them the benefit of the doubt), they don't really need to respond to CWI criticisms, which their members have used here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showpost.php?p=1390662&postcount=7). I think that's a pretty good 'fact' right there. So, seeing as you didn't really read the thread before your knee-jerk response, maybe you should go ahead and... read the thread.

Again, you are criticizing the IMT because a member of the said organization, claimed that the IMT is bigger than the CWI. Therefore it's the IMT's fault that it argues with the CWI and the IMT members' fault that they argue with a smaller organization? :confused:

What ?? I think you are just trying to find stuff to argue about.


It wasn't gleeful joy, really - it was just great poetic justice. Your group has been parading it's supposedly huge Marxist group in Pakistan to justify why it won't debate its ideas with any of the "sects," and it collapsed like the house of cards it was.

I was just happening to browse www.marxist.com a few days ago and I saw the Pakistani section of the IMT having a congress with 2 000 delegates :lol:.
And here the sectarian tries to score points, even after he get's prove wrong about his assertion.

So really after this, there is no point continuing this argument. You were just proved to be a liar. And once a liar, always a liar. Especialy in the case of sectarians.

Yehuda Stern
3rd April 2009, 16:05
Bob really beat me to the punch here - there are countless examples of the IMT's centrism, but their position on the Malvinas is really one of the best examples I can think of and is well documented, and admitted by IMT leaders.

Matina, from your rhetoric ("sectarians" blah blah blah), I understand that you're already some sort of IMT sympathizer - clearly as only such people are willing to believe the nonsense they read on Alan Woods' website. If you want to tell yourself I'm a liar, fine, go ahead - I really don't care. Just check out this International's miserable performance worldwide, especially in far more advantagous situations (e.g. Venezuela), and ask yourself if it's really possible that in a country with no revolutionary struggle at the moment, there is a Trotskyist group numbering thousands of supporters.

Matina
3rd April 2009, 16:11
Bob really beat me to the punch here - there are countless examples of the IMT's centrism, but their position on the Malvinas is really one of the best examples I can think of and is well documented, and admitted by IMT leaders.

I already dealt with this, which is obviously part of "countless" examples. Maybe you can rename it to countless distortions :).


If you want to tell yourself I'm a liar, fine, go ahead - I really don't care. Just check out this International's miserable performance worldwide, especially in far more advantagous situations (e.g. Venezuela), and ask yourself if it's really possible that in a country with no revolutionary struggle at the moment, there is a Trotskyist group numbering thousands of supporters.

Oh it's not possible for a marxist group to have thousands of supporters in a country of 100 millions! Therefore all these pictures must be photoshoped! Even worse ! Alan Woods payed some Pakistanis to pretend that they attended a marxist congress just so the IMT can look good. Yes, this makes sense. You are not only a liar, but I liar that does not admit that he lies. Which is even worse. I wonder if anyone takes you seriously.

Crux
3rd April 2009, 16:15
It's not about the numbers.

Q
3rd April 2009, 18:44
I propose that the Falklands/Maldivas specific posts get split into their own thread as it has developed into it's own theme, instead of a side-argument by now.

BobKKKindle$
3rd April 2009, 18:46
Alan Woods payed some Pakistanis to pretend that they attended a marxist congress just so the IMT can look good

I don't care about the size of the IMT section in Pakistan, but I was looking through those pictures, and I wanted to ask: why is Alan Woods at the conference? Does he know about the situation in Pakistan better than local activists who have lived in that country for many years and have direct experience of the political situation? Why is a Pakistani organization giving up time and resources so they can hear a British activist talk?

Random Precision
3rd April 2009, 19:20
Posts dealing with the Malvinas conflict split.

I think the most troubling thing about the Militant was how they expected to achieve socialism. If my memory serves me correctly, they expected to first take full control of Labour, then have their MPs pass an Enabling Act to implement socialism. At that point, the reactionaries would attempt to coup the lawfully-elected government and the workers would come to its defense... which would be the revolution.

What was that about how "the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery and wield it for its own purposes"? Something that Marx guy said, I think.

bolchevique
3rd April 2009, 19:38
Why is a Pakistani organization giving up time and resources so they can hear a British activist talk?

Because we aren't a national organization, we are an international organization, and Alan is one of our main leaders, he was fighting here in Spain against the facism,and we didn't ask their nationality and also in the Spanish civil war thousand of internationaist went to spain to take part in the Revolution, for aunthentic revolutionaries we are only one international organization, no a federation of organizations You can read Marx, Engels ; Lenin and Trosky and you will see this is the type of international they wanted to build

Matina
3rd April 2009, 19:56
I don't care about the size of the IMT section in Pakistan, but I was looking through those pictures, and I wanted to ask: why is Alan Woods at the conference? Does he know about the situation in Pakistan better than local activists who have lived in that country for many years and have direct experience of the political situation? Why is a Pakistani organization giving up time and resources so they can hear a British activist talk?

What a vulgar understanding of Marxist organization. How much has the SWP degenerated? Building an organization is not a national task but an international. Alan Woods, being one of the main leaders of the IMT, attended in order to give to the Pakistani activists talks about international perspectives and give his own advice and opinion on certain things concerning the said section.

You remind me of those British trade-unionists who dismissed Trotsky's pamphlet on "Wither Britain?". They said : "What does a Russian know about Britain?" This narrow national outlook is evident in you as well.


Posts dealing with the Malvinas conflict split.

I think the most troubling thing about the Militant was how they expected to achieve socialism. If my memory serves me correctly, they expected to first take full control of Labour, then have their MPs pass an Enabling Act to implement socialism. At that point, the reactionaries would attempt to coup the lawfully-elected government and the workers would come to its defense... which would be the revolution.

What was that about how "the working class cannot simply lay hold of the ready-made state machinery and wield it for its own purposes"? Something that Marx guy said, I think.

No, they orrientate towards mass organizations in order to get hold of the centrist movements that emerge in a revolutionary situation and through that form a mass revolutionary party that will smash the bourgeois state, under the leadership of the marxists.

On the contrary, sectarians operate in the fringes of the labour movement and are doomed to irrelevance. It seems like the SWP started following the Koran now: " If Mohamed doesn't go to the mountain, let the mountain go to Mohamed" :lol:
Marxists should do the opposite.

Random Precision
3rd April 2009, 21:24
No, they orrientate towards mass organizations in order to get hold of the centrist movements that emerge in a revolutionary situation and through that form a mass revolutionary party that will smash the bourgeois state, under the leadership of the marxists.

It is certainly not what the Militant saw itself doing. But in any case this is exactly the kind of misconception Marxists need to be stamping out. We need to be organizing an independent working-class alternative to any capitalist party. For example, Rosa Luxemburg refused to break with the SDP, not seeing how the workers could be organized outside of "their own" party... and we know how that turned out for her.

Any prolonged entry into capitalist organizations, even those that are supposedly "workers parties" (a meaningless term if there ever was one) will be forever conducted on the terms of the bureaucratic leadership, and change the revolutionaries as much as the revolutionaries try to change the organization. You can much more easily put down roots in the working class through mass protests and union work.


On the contrary, sectarians operate in the fringes of the labour movement and are doomed to irrelevance. It seems like the SWP started following the Koran now: " If Mohamed doesn't go to the mountain, let the mountain go to Mohamed"

Well, I'm not in the SWP and I of course disagree with a number of their organizational methods, but it seems a bit rich for the supporter of a tiny sect that remains inside the capitalist ruling party to speak of Britain's largest revolutionary organization as "doomed to irrelevance".

Yehuda Stern
3rd April 2009, 22:09
Matina, just because you say something over and over again doesn't mean I'm lying - it just means you're desperate to prove you're right because you have no rational means of doing so. You can continue believe in the nonsense posted on Marxist.com as if it's the bible, but don't expect everyone in here to follow you in that. Some of us take the world as presented by fake revolutionaries with a little more salt.

Die Neue Zeit
4th April 2009, 01:06
Incorrect. While there hasn't been an out and out revolutionary situation in Britain, in every single test - a war by their ruling class (Malvinas), revolutions worldwide (Portugal, Venezuela) - both the IMT and CWI took centrist positions. There's no reason to assume that under a more serious and closer to home situation, they would act any better.

Yet again you mischaracterize centrist positions on war. :rolleyes:

It is more important to build politico-ideologically independent worker-class movements at home, and more often than not homegrown oppositions to imperialist bullying abroad are counter-productive (except in the case of inter-imperialist war such as WWI). A centrist position during a non-revolutionary period, and consistent with the positions of Marx and Engels, would be to downplay such wars.

Yehuda Stern
4th April 2009, 11:11
It is not I who mischaracterizes centrist positions, but you who mischaracterizes revolutionary positions. To not oppose a war on the side of 'your' imperialist state under the lame, cowardly excuse that it is "counter-productive," and instead claiming to focus on building an "independent" movement, is exactly the sort of meaningless double talk which is characteristic of centrist groups.

BobKKKindle$
4th April 2009, 11:52
You remind me of those British trade-unionists who dismissed Trotsky's pamphlet on "Wither Britain?". They said : "What does a Russian know about Britain?" This narrow national outlook is evident in you as well. It's got nothing to do with the fact that Alan Woods is British as such, but whereas Trotsky was a brilliant Marxist theorist with insights on a whole range of important issues, from the oppression of women to anti-imperialism, Alan Woods has never made any significant insights on any issue, whatever his supporters may claim, and, like all the other members of the IMT, continues to display a fetish for entryism even when remaining inside the Labour Party or any other centre-left organization no longer poses any significant advantages for revolutionaries, insofar as it did at some point in the past. This is why I question the utility of Alan Woods giving a speech to revolutionaries in Pakistan, and I suspect that it has more to do with his ego than any insights he might be able to bring to Pakistani activists.


It is more important to build politico-ideologically independent worker-class movements at home, and more often than not homegrown oppositions to imperialist bullying abroad are counter-productiveThe fact that you feel you can compartmentalize these issues - breaking the false consciousness of the working class as a precondition for socialist revolution, and opposing the violence conducted by British imperialism in other countries - and claim that they are actually oppossed to each other instead of being mutually supporting just shows that you don't understand the relationship between imperialism and class consciousness. The fact of the matter is that the main barrier to revolution in all imperialist countries is the ideological links between the working class and the ruling class, with these links manifesting themselves in the form of nationalism, and the myth of humanitarian intervention. The only way to be a consistent internationalist and liberate the working class from its nationalist prejudices is not only to condemn all imperialist wars, as wars to designed to sustain the capitalist system, but also to actively support the victory of the oppressed nation in all conflicts involving an imperialist power, even in cases where the oppressed nation may appear to have committed the first act of aggression, such as the Malvinas Conflict.

bolchevique
4th April 2009, 13:34
, Alan Woods has never made any significant insights on any issue, whatever his supporters may claim, and, like all the other members of the IMT, continues to display a fetish for entryism

Wha't is the history of swp apart from giving the oportunity to get a membership of the parliament a reformist like George something, I don't remember and supporting crazy religious fanatic to become concilior?, but you must keep on with your clever ideas, you are giing great step towards the cliff ,on the contrary our history is three marxist mp, a liverpool fighting againt tatcher cuts, poll tax movement, leading massive students demonstration in Spain which defeated the goverments cuts , even the Spanish national tv20 year later recognized our role directed by Student Union Sindicato de estudiantes, our comrade Juan ignacion was interviewed in this programe ,recently we helped to defeat the right wing in Refundacion Comunista in Italy, with membersof our organization in the central committe,we got 15 % of vote in in the French Comunist party, we are taking part as leader of numerous factory occupation around the world Venezuela, Mexico, Brazil,we have a big organization in Pakistan, we have the biggest marxist publishing house in Spanish

Matina
4th April 2009, 14:54
It's got nothing to do with the fact that Alan Woods is British as such, but whereas Trotsky was a brilliant Marxist theorist with insights on a whole range of important issues, from the oppression of women to anti-imperialism, Alan Woods has never made any significant insights on any issue, whatever his supporters may claim, and, like all the other members of the IMT, continues to display a fetish for entryism even when remaining inside the Labour Party or any other centre-left organization no longer poses any significant advantages for revolutionaries, insofar as it did at some point in the past. This is why I question the utility of Alan Woods giving a speech to revolutionaries in Pakistan, and I suspect that it has more to do with his ego than any insights he might be able to bring to Pakistani activists.

He is the leader of the organization, so the comrades from Pakistan obviously respect him and want him there. I think the same thing about Tony Cliff. In fact I think that Tony Cliff is an and fake marxist. But I bet you don't think the same and that you would want to see him speak. So can you please stop making inane arguments and wasting my time?



Matina, just because you say something over and over again doesn't mean I'm lying - it just means you're desperate to prove you're right because you have no rational means of doing so. You can continue believe in the nonsense posted on Marxist.com as if it's the bible, but don't expect everyone in here to follow you in that. Some of us take the world as presented by fake revolutionaries with a little more salt.

http://www.marxist.com/images/stories/pakistan/congress_2009.jpg

Ok Yehuda, I just proved you are lying. Contrary to what you say, the IMT section of Pakistan wasn't destroyed . Deny it as much as you want, everyone knows you are a liar now.

Matina
4th April 2009, 15:05
It is certainly not what the Militant saw itself doing. But in any case this is exactly the kind of misconception Marxists need to be stamping out. We need to be organizing an independent working-class alternative to any capitalist party. For example, Rosa Luxemburg refused to break with the SDP, not seeing how the workers could be organized outside of "their own" party... and we know how that turned out for her.

The mistake of Rosa Luxemburg was that she left too early from the SPD , thus she didn't manage to win the centrist current that was being formed inside the Party.


Any prolonged entry into capitalist organizations, even those that are supposedly "workers parties" (a meaningless term if there ever was one) will be forever conducted on the terms of the bureaucratic leadership, and change the revolutionaries as much as the revolutionaries try to change the organization. You can much more easily put down roots in the working class through mass protests and union work.

Not if you have a strong cadre organization. But anyways your argument is inane because the workers tend to move first through their mass organizations. In revolutionary conditions, there will be centrist currents emerging and the marxists can be the leaders of these currents.

Sectarians don't see the distinction between an independent party of 3 million and 3 hundred. And because Marxists are weak and separated from the working class we need to go where the working class is , ie. the mass organizations of the working class.

You have your opinion I have mine. But please aknowledge that this opinion is not opportunism or "dogmatism", but flows from the political analysis that the masses first move through their mass organizations. Well if you don't, then I don't really care:lol:


Well, I'm not in the SWP and I of course disagree with a number of their organizational methods, but it seems a bit rich for the supporter of a tiny sect that remains inside the capitalist ruling party to speak of Britain's largest revolutionary organization as "doomed to irrelevance".

My friend, the SWP is still irrelevant and will always be. Yes they managed to win over a couple of thousand of people temporarily(Their claim of 8 000 is absurd). Many sects have done that in the course of history, because the remporary shift to the right of mass organizations. But once the Labour Party or another mass organization formed through the Labour party , move to the left, the SWP will return to what it was. Nothing.

bolchevique
4th April 2009, 17:34
With 8ooo thounsand members and this swp got so little or this is a total lie in question of number or this reinforces my idea that even the biggest sectarian organization is uncapable of gaining influence among working class. I don't know much of this swp because I read he didn't get any positive results in election even after 12 of New Labour and they pretend to be 8ooo ,and with this number they have less councilliors than our organization el militante in Andalucia, that's really pathetic and says a lot about them

BobKKKindle$
4th April 2009, 17:57
The mistake of Rosa Luxemburg was that she left too early from the SPD , thus she didn't manage to win the centrist current that was being formed inside the Party.If Luxemburg formed the KPD too early, in 1918, then when would you have had her leave? I am of the opinion that Luxemburg did break away too late, and the consequences that resulted from her failure to form an independent organization as soon as the SPD had shown itself to be an opportunist party with nothing to offer the working class in 1914 clearly demonstrate why it is important for revolutionaries to seperate themselves from reformist organizations and create revolutionary parties - which, given that the IMT fetishizes entryism, also invalidates their strategy. If Luxemburg had broken away early, the KPD would have had time to develop organic links with the working class and its ability to lead the struggle against capitalism and the bourgeois state prior to the emergence of a revolutionary situation in 1919, and yet because she continued to operate as an activist inside the SPD until 1918, the SPD was able to retain its position as the dominant political organization of the working class, which, in turn, allowed its reformist and bourgeois leaders to betray the working class and save the bourgeoisie when the opportunity for revolution presented itself by restricting their demands to political reforms within the framework of the capitalist system (the creation of a parliamentary republic) and refusing to arm the working class.


But anyways your argument is inane because the workers tend to move first through their mass organizationsIt's clear to everyone in the UK that the Labour Party, although marginally better than the Conservatives, is a fundamentally bourgeois and imperialist party, dependent on business for funding (trade unions are still a significant source of funding, but their importance has been declining for several decades relative to private donations from individuals and corporate funding, which also means that the leaders of the party can afford to ignore the demands of unions when they develop and implement policy) and therefore tied to the bourgeoisie. In light of this, the need to have an independent party that can be politically independent is more important than ever.

Q
4th April 2009, 18:00
The 8000 mark is highly exaggerated, but even if it was true it would mean little. Because the SWP lowered their program so much and their cadre is consequently also of a lower level, only to appeal to more people to inflate the numbers.

BobKKKindle$
4th April 2009, 18:52
Because the SWP lowered their program so much and their cadre is consequently also of a lower level, only to appeal to more people to inflate the numbers.Firstly, the SWP does not claim to have 8000 members. Secondly, the only people in this thread who have tried to win a debate on the basis of how many supporters their party has are supporters of the IMT - and the SWP differs from other left-wing organizations in that it does not waste time and resources trying to win sectarian battles over issues of only minor importance to the working class. Thirdly, the CWI is in no position to accuse the SWP is reducing its program when they have consistently failed to maintain a revolutionary position on issues of huge importance - for example, the CWI delegates objected to an SWP motion calling for a policy of open borders at an Solidarity conference on the grounds that demanding the abolition of migration controls would alienate the working class, and is indicative of a failure to grasp the concerns of ordinary workers. This is just one example a tendency to waver and adopt reactionary positions when confronted with a serious challenge - the decision of CWI members on the DWP executive of the PCS to vote against strike action in July of last year is a further example.

Die Neue Zeit
4th April 2009, 19:36
If Luxemburg formed the KPD too early, in 1918, then when would you have had her leave? I am of the opinion that Luxemburg did break away too late, and the consequences that resulted from her failure to form an independent organization as soon as the SPD had shown itself to be an opportunist party with nothing to offer the working class in 1914 clearly demonstrate why it is important for revolutionaries to seperate themselves from reformist organizations and create revolutionary parties - which, given that the IMT fetishizes entryism, also invalidates their strategy. If Luxemburg had broken away early, the KPD would have had time to develop organic links with the working class and its ability to lead the struggle against capitalism and the bourgeois state prior to the emergence of a revolutionary situation in 1919, and yet because she continued to operate as an activist inside the SPD until 1918

Um, the USPD was formed in 1917, and the ultra-left KPD was formed as a breakaway organization from the vanguard USPD and not the SPD (as noted in a History thread of mine (http://www.revleft.com/vb/uspd-vs-kpd-t103415/index.html)).


It is not I who mischaracterizes centrist positions, but you who mischaracterizes revolutionary positions. To not oppose a war on the side of 'your' imperialist state under the lame, cowardly excuse that it is "counter-productive," and instead claiming to focus on building an "independent" movement, is exactly the sort of meaningless double talk which is characteristic of centrist groups.

At the current low levels of consciousness, do you think ordinary workers will care much about foreign adventures as opposed to their increasingly precarious economic position and deterioration of political activism on the home front?


The fact that you feel you can compartmentalize these issues - breaking the false consciousness of the working class as a precondition for socialist revolution, and opposing the violence conducted by British imperialism in other countries - and claim that they are actually opposed to each other instead of being mutually supporting just shows that you don't understand the relationship between imperialism and class consciousness. The fact of the matter is that the main barrier to revolution in all imperialist countries is the ideological links between the working class and the ruling class, with these links manifesting themselves in the form of nationalism, and the myth of humanitarian intervention. The only way to be a consistent internationalist and liberate the working class from its nationalist prejudices is not only to condemn all imperialist wars, as wars to designed to sustain the capitalist system, but also to actively support the victory of the oppressed nation in all conflicts involving an imperialist power, even in cases where the oppressed nation may appear to have committed the first act of aggression, such as the Malvinas Conflict.

I never said that they are opposed to each other. "Anti-imperialist" agitation at the present time is counter-productive primarily in the sense that the time dedicated to such is at the expense of building politico-ideologically independent worker-class movements (the cultural organizations, the sports clubs, even the cooperatives, etc.).

Yehuda Stern
4th April 2009, 21:33
At the current low levels of consciousness, do you think ordinary workers will care much about foreign adventures as opposed to their increasingly precarious economic position and deterioration of political activism on the home front?

'Ordinary' workers might not, but the vanguard will - which is the part of the working class that the revolutionary party should work with anyway. Your problem is that your conception of party building is mired in pre-Bolshevik conceptions, and is pretty opportunist anyway.


Ok Yehuda, I just proved you are lying. Contrary to what you say, the IMT section of Pakistan wasn't destroyed . Deny it as much as you want, everyone knows you are a liar now.

Yeah yeah, keep saying that to yourself.

Die Neue Zeit
4th April 2009, 22:18
'Ordinary' workers might not, but the vanguard will

The "vanguard" isn't a monolithic entity. Certain elements, such as myself, don't.


Your problem is that your conception of party building is mired in pre-Bolshevik conceptions, and is pretty opportunist anyway.

It is "mired" in pre-Comintern conceptions. There is nothing opportunist about the daunting task of building a politico-ideologically independent worker-class movement (so-called "voluntarism") on a transnational and not merely international scale. This stands in direct contrast to your ultra-leftist organizational defeatism.

bolchevique
5th April 2009, 07:20
[QUOTE=Bobkindles;1403419], the only people in this thread who have tried to win a debate on the basis of how many supporters their party has are supporters of the IMT -
Comrade Bob,Our main difference between The IMT and the rest of groups
so-called troskist or leninist , is our orientation towards the working class organizations, the attitude towards the comunist, socialist or Labour . Taff and his followers decided to follow your path 17 years ago,so the theory is obvious, and now i't the right time to talk about facts and results, Why was so succesful militant and why the CWI is a fiasco,They changed ,we were a tiny minority in the international, only The Spanish section and , which were very small and with little resources compare to The British comrades, decided to maintain our orientation towards the working class , which it doesn't mean the we don't do open work, but we educate our comrades to this perpective. I think theory is very important and debate is essential but after a long and rich debate is necessary to reach the conclusions and results of this debate

Q
5th April 2009, 07:29
, the only people in this thread who have tried to win a debate on the basis of how many supporters their party has are supporters of the IMT -
Comrade Bob,Our main difference between The IMT and the rest of groups
so-called troskist or leninist , is our orientation towards the working class organizations, the attitude towards the comunist, socialist or Labour . Taff and his followers decided to follow your path 17 years ago,so the theory is obvious, and now i't the right time to talk about facts and results, Why was so succesful militant and why the CWI is a fiasco,They changed ,we were a tiny minority in the international, only The Spanish section and , which were very small and with little resources compare to The British comrades, decided to maintain our orientation towards the working class , which it doesn't mean the we don't do open work, but we educate our comrades to this perpective. I think theory is very important and debate is essential but after a long and rich debate is necessary to reach the conclusions and results of this debate

Could you substantiate the remark that the CWI is a fiasco? Purely talking on numbers, which is all you seem to care about, the CWI is still larger.

Also, this childish behaviour by pointing the finger at Peter Taaffe (please spell this correctly every once in a while) being responsible for an implosion of the Militant group from 8000 at the end of the eighties to about 2000 now, is really un-Marxist. An actual analysis doesn't put the blame at this or that person, but looks to all factors involved and guess what: the betrayal of the social-democracy and the fall of Stalinism did have a huge impact on the workers movement. This was hardly isolated to the CWI. In fact, I'd defend the point that we managed to pull ourselves through this difficult period while remaining many of the old cadres. Despite the disruptive split by Ted Grant and Alan Woods.

bolchevique
5th April 2009, 08:06
[QUOTE=Q;1403885]Could you substantiate the remark that the CWI is a fiasco?
compa Q sorry for my English, I should pay more attention to my spelling Taaffe, I personally met him in few occasions, although I was and I am a rank and file member I joined very young to the tendency, when Tejero coup d'etat in Spain, I won a lottery competition to one of the militant rally in Albert Hall, we organized ruffle to get money for the organization ,I remmember this meeting with more than 5000 comrades, and these people from swp, and other groups I don't remmember their names, but a at least five different groups selling their paper outside our meeting ,so for us the British organization was an inspiration, and was a real trauma when this split happened, we couldn't understand them. When the split happened in the 90s the situation was awful and many comunist were abandoning the organization and renouncing marxism, and instead of preparing the organization for this hard period, they decide to do this somersault and they didn't talk about any problem,they talked about the reds 90s, and I was talking to british comrades, becasue when the debate I was working in the telephone company , I could phone for free, I Knew some comrades, and still know them, they have left the cwi, very good and people and working class fighters , they were very optimistic , they only probelm they saw was our orientation towars the working class movement they said this was the main problemfor our growth and the revolution, so they decided to be SWP version (Taaffist)

Yehuda Stern
5th April 2009, 09:44
The "vanguard" isn't a monolithic entity. Certain elements, such as myself, don't.

So what you're basically saying is that it's not that you don't believe workers will care about stopping imperialist aggression, but that you don't care about it. Well, that's a different thing altogether - I could've told you that myself.


It is "mired" in pre-Comintern conceptions. There is nothing opportunist about the daunting task of building a politico-ideologically independent worker-class movement (so-called "voluntarism") on a transnational and not merely international scale. This stands in direct contrast to your ultra-leftist organizational defeatism.

I have no idea why you continue to use these silly made up definitions of yours, but at any rate, I find it quite funny that you claim that building a purely national organization which doesn't care about imperialist war isn't opportunist.

Patchd
5th April 2009, 10:07
“An eagle can fly as low as a barnyard hen but a barnyard hen can never reach the height of an eagle.”
CWILOL :lol:

robbo203
5th April 2009, 10:21
So what you're basically saying is that it's not that you don't believe workers will care about stopping imperialist aggression, but that you don't care about it. Well, that's a different thing altogether - I could've told you that myself.



I have no idea why you continue to use these silly made up definitions of yours, but at any rate, I find it quite funny that you claim that building a purely national organization which doesn't care about imperialist war isn't opportunist.

I think Jacob used the expression transnational not national. Quite ironic that. Its people like you with your nationalist claptrap about a palestinian state who are the real opportunists. All states are latently or manifestly imperialist - including the little ones. All nationalism obscures the class struggle. The problem is not imperialism - imperialism is just the symptom - but capitalism, but then of course that would not be an issue of such pressing concern to an opportunist like you who is too busily involved in this or that pro-nationalist struggle aganist this or that imperialist aggressor, eh?

Yehuda Stern
5th April 2009, 10:59
This is rich - Jacob says he doesn't care about imperialist war, you're against setting up a Palestinian state, and I'm the opportunist. It's all just a real coincidence that you're all refusing to take positions which bring you into conflict with your imperialist state.

robbo203
5th April 2009, 11:24
This is rich - Jacob says he doesn't care about imperialist war, you're against setting up a Palestinian state, and I'm the opportunist. It's all just a real coincidence that you're all refusing to take positions which bring you into conflict with your imperialist state.


Like I said the problem is capitalism not imperialism and by supporting nationalism you are a de facto supporter of imperlialism since all states are imperialist, latently or manifestly. Ironically by opposing nationalism we are far more effectively opposing imperialism than you could ever do with your current ideas

Sam_b
5th April 2009, 12:12
A quick clarification.


Thirdly, the CWI is in no position to accuse the SWP is reducing its program when they have consistently failed to maintain a revolutionary position on issues of huge importance - for example, the CWI delegates objected to an SWP motion calling for a policy of open borders at an SSP conference on the grounds that demanding the abolition of migration controls would alienate the working class

This was not at SSP conference, but at Solidarity conference 2007. I know because I was there.

BobKKKindle$
5th April 2009, 12:32
Thanks, comrade, I wasn't sure, I'll change my original post to avoid confusion.

Yehuda Stern
5th April 2009, 12:33
Like I said the problem is capitalism not imperialism and by supporting nationalism you are a de facto supporter of imperlialism since all states are imperialist, latently or manifestly.

You're right - the expropriated, starved, slaughtered Palestinians in Gaza are just as imperialist as the Zionist army. What a brave internationalist you are.

robbo203
5th April 2009, 13:19
You're right - the expropriated, starved, slaughtered Palestinians in Gaza are just as imperialist as the Zionist army. What a brave internationalist you are.


Dont be absurd. It is a Palestinian state I am talking about which you as a nationalist are striving to build up and solidify. Like all states - including, it goes without saying,the Israeli state - it is imperialistic in orientation whether latent or manifestly. The nation state is a creature of capitalism and the ethos of capitalism is necessarily accumulative and expansionist.

I no more support the slaughter of Palestinain workers than you do. But unlike you I do not call for the creation of a Palestinian state (which incidentally will only prolong rather than stop the slaughter) and ipso facto the solidification of capitalist relations. In calling for a palestinain state this is exactly what you are doing - inferring falsely a communality of interests between one class and another within so called Paelstine. But then the difference between you and I is that you dont have a problem with capitalism - you are a left wing pro-capitalist - but prefer to see the problem as one of "imperialism"

Die Neue Zeit
5th April 2009, 17:17
So what you're basically saying is that it's not that you don't believe workers will care about stopping imperialist aggression, but that you don't care about it. Well, that's a different thing altogether - I could've told you that myself.

I said that ordinary workers and certain elements of the vanguard itself don't see stopping imperialist aggression as a top priority. Like yourself, I too live in an imperialist country. Unlike yourself, said country isn't in close proximity to an oppressed country.


I have no idea why you continue to use these silly made up definitions of yours, but at any rate, I find it quite funny that you claim that building a purely national organization which doesn't care about imperialist war isn't opportunist.

I didn't make up anything (except the word "transnational," but that's a business word). I also find it funny that prioritizing anti-imperialism over the general class struggle isn't considered opportunist by folks like yourself.


I think Jacob used the expression transnational not national. Quite ironic that. Its people like you with your nationalist claptrap about a palestinian state who are the real opportunists. All states are latently or manifestly imperialist - including the little ones. All nationalism obscures the class struggle. The problem is not imperialism - imperialism is just the symptom - but capitalism, but then of course that would not be an issue of such pressing concern to an opportunist like you who is too busily involved in this or that pro-nationalist struggle aganist this or that imperialist aggressor, eh?

I give an exceptional exception to republican socialism in Ireland (even if I'm on the other side of the Atlantic), and I don't agree with your assertion that all states down to East Timor are imperialist (that being an ultra-leftist argument), but otherwise you've made a good point. Unless anti-imperialist struggles have a primarily proletarian character (such as republican socialism), they do obscure the class struggle.

Matina
5th April 2009, 18:46
This thread has gone so far since the last time I checked it so I'm lost:lol:
I love how the sectarians jump in and write, write, write.
Someone told me once to : "Talk once to sectarians and then you will learn not to talk to them again". I think I just learned this lesson.

Especially with Yehuda Stern, who after pictures as proof for the Pakistani congress, he's like " Yeah yeah continue calling me liar but the section has collapsed"
If he is so blind in order to see that thing, well how am I supposed to argue with him? That is why sectarians are only a waste of time and nothing more. They are of no significance to the movement and their ideas are known only by their own group. They are only good to waste the time of real revolutionaries, who actually do real work.

Louis Pio
6th April 2009, 12:15
Quote:
Ok Yehuda, I just proved you are lying. Contrary to what you say, the IMT section of Pakistan wasn't destroyed . Deny it as much as you want, everyone knows you are a liar now.
Yeah yeah, keep saying that to yourself.

And just then what little sanity you had left, decided to leave and wave good bye Yehuda.

Yehuda, while one member leaving would probably constitute a collapse in your group, the same doesn't apply to the Struggle.
I think it displays a healthy political line when a group has no sentimental feelings towards leading members, but take the logical conclusion of their actions and expel them.

Jolly Red Giant
8th January 2010, 01:17
This debate is finished and the results are cristal clear, The Spanish section El militante followed the ideas of ted and woods and now we can talk about facts and results. The result is the following after more than 16 year of the split our organization is Spain is stronger than before and we have created the organization in most American countries
The irony of this struck me while I was reading it.