Do Palestinians know how many Americans support their cause?

[R_P_A_S]

I was just wondering if the people from Gaza and the West Bank get any of the news, pictures and feedback from many groups in the U.S. that march, protest, rally and advocate for them and their injustices?

I was at the Israeli consulate for a protest during the bombing of Gaza and seen so many people on a work day out there made me wonder if they knew how other people do care and are angry at the U.S. and Israel for their attacks and fucked up policies.

I would love to see some feedback from people over there.

anyone?

[Vendetta]

Honestly, I have no idea. I know that there are some groups that go over there, but who knows. Although I'd bet they'd see it on TV or radio or suchlike.

[BobKKKindle$]

I don't know about Americans, but Palestinians who have spoken at my university (in the UK) recently say they do know about all of the occupations that have been taking place here, because the occupations have received extensive coverage on Arabic news networks such as Al-Jazeera, and a surprising large number of Palestinians have access to satellite TV. They recognize that British citizens, and students in particular, are not complicit in the actions of the British state, and identify with the Palestinian struggle, despite the biased coverage in the mainstream media. During our occupation we actually got in touch with a Palestinian journalist based in the Gaza Strip and shouted our slogans and messages or support down the phone, and heard about what people in Gaza thought of us, which was incredibly inspiring.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Its pretty disingenuous to claim that Americans or British support the Palestinian cause, when in reality few of them do.

[RedAnarchist]

Its pretty disingenuous to claim that Americans or British support the Palestinian cause, when in reality few of them do.

Only because most do not care or have no opinion. The numbers of people who support the Palestinian cause versus the Israeli "cause" are probably around the same as each other.

[Killfacer]

Only because most do not care or have no opinion. The numbers of people who support the Palestinian cause versus the Israeli "cause" are probably around the same as each other.

He's right. Far more people in the UK at least, don't have an opinion on the matter. It's just speculation but i reckon the majority of people who actually have an opinion on the matter are probably in support of the gazans.

[R_P_A_S]

well guys it's obvious I meant the minority of Americans that care. Not all.

[Yehuda Stern]

1. I don't think it's right to say that most Americans are just indifferent to the Israeli war on Palestine - most Americans support Israel quite enthusiastically. Maybe a bit less now than before, but certainly a good firm majority.

2. Palestinians know that they have supporters in the world, even in Israel, but tend to mistrust them. Pretty justified mistrust, I might add - Israeli leftists criticize Israeli brutality, but mostly accept Israel's right to exist (same goes for many centrist groups like the IMT, CWI, USFI etc.), while other groups are very clear in their support for the Palestinians but are clearly "supporters from afar" - they have no intention of trying to build a section in Palestine and thus cannot win the trust of advanced Palestinians workers and youth (SWP, ISO).

[LOLseph Stalin]

I try to remain neutral in things like this.

[Yehuda Stern]

In things like what?

[LOLseph Stalin]

In things like what?


The Isreali/Palestinian conflict. That's what this thread is about. I think both sides are to blame. Hamas is reactionary and Israel is imperialist. The Israeli and Palestinian proletariat should be uniting against the reactionary Israeli state and reactionary Hamas.

[LeninBalls]

Ah, the good ol Trotskyist "CRITICIZE BOTH GUYS" theory. Hamas is the only tool to fight Israeli and American imperialism and we must support them, regardless if they're fundamentalist or not.

[Killfacer]

Ah, the good ol Trotskyist "CRITICIZE BOTH GUYS" theory. Hamas is the only tool to fight Israeli and American imperialism and we must support them, regardless if they're fundamentalist or not.

Okay, you enjoy doing that. I "must" not do anything. I'm not supporting zealots and homophobes.

[LeninBalls]

So you're not supporting anti Israeli and American imperialism?

[Tjis]

So you're not supporting anti Israeli and American imperialism?
Cause the world is black and white like that.:mad:
If you don't unconditionally support Hamas, you must unconditionally support Israel?

[LeninBalls]

Cause the world is black and white like that.:mad:

To some extent yes. Israel ARE imperialists and there is no denying that, same with the US for using Israel as a Middle Eastern tattle tale. Hamas are fighting them and aiming to bring them down to some extent. What's wrong with supporting them? They may be zealots and Islamic fundamentalists, and we may not like supporting them but we must, who else is their to fight Israeli racism and imperialism? Not Fatah, sadly. I hate the Taliban but they're all there is to fight western imperialism and so I support them, unwillingly.

[Killfacer]

So you're not supporting anti Israeli and American imperialism?

Yawn. :rolleyes:

Why the childish slur?

[LeninBalls]

Slur? I only asked a question. :p

[AvanteRedGarde]

Noone said "uncritically support" anything. It's a strawman to say anyone did.

It's an issue between Palestine and Israel- not between Hamas and Israel. Hamas happens to be the group doing the fighting on the ground. I'd like to see you peddle your fence-riding to those facing occupation and Isreali aggression. You would be laughed at at the least- you're head would be cut off at the most.

For those in occupied Palestine, there is no nuetrality. Yours comes from a combination of relative comfort and a clear lack of internationalism.

[Killfacer]

Noone said "uncritically support" anything. It's a strawman to say anyone did.

It's an issue between Palestine and Israel- not between Hamas and Israel. Hamas happens to be the group doing the fighting on the ground. I'd like to see you peddle your fence-riding to those facing occupation and Isreali aggression. You would be laughed at at the least- you're head would be cut off at the most.

For those in occupied Palestine, there is no nuetrality. Yours comes from a combination of relative comfort and a clear lack of internationalism.

oooooh "lack of internationalism". When your done with your crappy mud slinging and buzz words come back and talk.

Your "support" comes from relative comfort aswell. So?

[AvanteRedGarde]

Support for Hamas in the occupied territories jumped up after Isreal's latest aggression.

My support for Hamas is based on my solidarity with oppressed people.

Lack of solidarity with oppressed people: can you better explain why one would claim to be "neutral?"

[Wanted Man]

Fence sitting in politics is meaningless. How can you claim to support socialism and liberation, and then use that socialist sense of yours as a way of acting ambivalent when people are crushed under a jackboot?

The "both sides are bad" and "a pox on both houses" is one of the biggest coups that the establishment has won against the socialist movement, and not just in this case. Ambivalence can justify exploitation and oppression in every part of society. When there is a crippling public transport strike, watch the glib media spokesmen: "Of course, they're standing up for their rights. But their actions are hurting the ordinary worker who just wants to get to his job!"

Oh, a funny example from my town. When fascists demonstrated in my town, local football hoolies were instrumental in opposing them. On their website, they referred to the nazi march as a "gay parade". So maybe now we should say: "I oppose fascism, but I'm also against these reactionary homophobes. I'm staying neutral in this one!" Even if the cops then smash the anti-fascist march and the nazis take the day? I'm sure many lefts who are ambivalent on Israel (a much more extreme case of oppression than just a bunch of nazi boneheads, I might add), would laugh at the suggestion. After all, who doesn't like a nice bit of "beating the shit out of nazis" machismo?

It's nothing as crass as "you must support Hamas, or you're a pro-imperialist". But the politics of ambivalence is not inherently different from the politics of capitulation. People who hold on to these politics will counter with: "But we want to build up a real workers' movement that is independent of both Israel and Hamas, workers have no country!"

That sounds good, but what happens in the real world? What does this matter when the majority of the world is exploited and oppressed by imperialism? Such a workers' movement will never come to exist under the boot of Israeli soldiers. That's why people who proudly proclaim that they don't acknowledge, or "don't give a shit" about imperialism are only making themselves look like idiots. Denial of this reality leads to all sorts of reactionary politics, usually much more deadly in practice than Hamas' ideology. But who will even know this once it happens? I have no doubt that Christopher Hitchens, for example, still fancies himself a progressive of sorts.

[Killfacer]

Needless to say i disagree with you, but this argument is had over and over again so i can't be fucked.

[Yehuda Stern]

The problem is, people who support such 'neutralism' have always been utterly defeated in every previous argument. There's only need for it to arise again and again because you always take up the same old arguments.

[Unclebananahead]

It must get back to them to some degree, at least I would hope that it does.

[Killfacer]

The problem is, people who support such 'neutralism' have always been utterly defeated in every previous argument. There's only need for it to arise again and again because you always take up the same old arguments.

So now i'm a fucking neutralist? Bizzare. My position isn't that thought out. I simply find it difficult to support anti semetic, homophobic, sexist, religious zealots.

What's the point in saying "i support hamas" anyway? May aswell support no one, because it has essentially the same effect (none).

[AvanteRedGarde]

As I said, it certainly is indicative of a certain level of non-solidarity with the oppressed. It is a sad state when this is a trait of the 'left.'

[Killfacer]

As I said, it certainly is indicative of a certain level of non-solidarity with the oppressed. It is a sad state when this is a trait of the 'left.'

Oh fuck off you whinging idiot. I don't give a flying fuck on your stupid little opinion about the sorry state of the left. Why the stupid little quote mark things aswell. So now because i don't support Hamas i'm no longer left. Go fuck yourself. At least Charming Man was intelligent with his disagreement.

Supporting homophobes, sexists, anti semites isn't exactly something the left have been known for is it.

[LeninBalls]

Take a chill pill man. I hate supporting the Taliban but I do. Because personally I believe the Taliban will not last long when they win, so I can easily not support them after. The same is for Hamas personally. I support them for their liberation causes and will continue until they've been liberated, but that doesn't mean I support homophobia and sexism or support them after they've won.

[Killfacer]

Take a chill pill man. I hate supporting the Taliban but I do. Because personally I believe the Taliban will not last long when they win, so I can easily not support them after. The same is for Hamas personally. I support them for their liberation causes and will continue until they've been liberated, but that doesn't mean I support homophobia and sexism or support them after they've won.

You support he taliban? Fuck me. That's even worse than supporting Hamas. If the taliban "win", then what the fuck are you gonna do?

What are you playing at?

[LeninBalls]

Like I said, when the Taliban win, I personally don't believe they'll be in power that long, voila.

[Killfacer]

Like I said, when the Taliban win, I personally don't believe they'll be in power that long, voila.

Never thought i would hear a lefty supporting some of the most reactionary people on the face of the planet.

[LeninBalls]

I personally don't believe they'll be in power that long

^

[Killfacer]

^

Yes i'm not blind. Pray tell me, what is this pearl of wisdom based on?

[LeninBalls]

The fact that they believe Shia are the scum of the earth and will attack other Shia countries, Iran, Azerbaijan, directly or indirectly.

The fact that the people got sick of them before and revolted and temporarily removed them from official power until the West came.

The fact that Tajiks, Hazars, Uzbeks, etc were discriminated and they too revolted, also contributed in the general uprising of the Afghani people.

[Killfacer]

The fact that they believe Shia are the scum of the earth and will attack other Shia countries, Iran, Azerbaijan, directly or indirectly.

The fact that the people got sick of them before and revolted and temporarily removed them from official power until the West came.

The fact that Tajiks, Hazars, Uzbeks, etc were discriminated and they too revolted, also contributed in the general uprising of the Afghani people.

I think if America fails to quell the taliban, most over nations will struggle.

You suppor the taliban? You sicken me.

[LeninBalls]

What do you mean "most over nations will struggle"? I don't get you.

I don't like supporting the Taliban, but I know they won't remain in power when they win.

I don't support their policies or their leaders, I support their fighting of Western imperialism. I will not support them once they've won.

[Unclebananahead]

The Taliban are indeed revolting, but it is true that they are causing trouble for US imperialism.

[Killfacer]

The Taliban are indeed revolting, but it is true that they are causing trouble for US imperialism.

They're also causing women and gays trouble.

[Killfacer]

What do you mean "most over nations will struggle"? I don't get you.

I don't like supporting the Taliban, but I know they won't remain in power when they win.

I don't support their policies or their leaders, I support their fighting of Western imperialism. I will not support them once they've won.

You don't "know" that. Stop being ridiculous, you're not mystic fucking meg.

[LeninBalls]

No, but the signs are there. The people revolted in 1996 and they will again, why wouldn't they? It's not like a different Afghani and Tajik, Hazar and Uzbek people suddenly sprang up and and went pro-Taliban.

[LeninBalls]

Good to know you understand. :)

[Killfacer]

Good to know you understand. :)

Who are you talking to? I didn't even reply.

[Pogue]

He's right. Far more people in the UK at least, don't have an opinion on the matter. It's just speculation but i reckon the majority of people who actually have an opinion on the matter are probably in support of the gazans.

I'd defaintly say this is the case, although alot of the more nationalistic bigots I know have said they support Israel for some completely stupid reason to do with 'them being on our side' and some other shit not worth typing.

I think most people in Britain support the Gazans because they see that quite simply, the Palestinians are being abused by an aggresor state, and so the Palestinians are the oppressed. You only see nationalistic idiots, Zionists and a few right wing intellectuals supporting Israel.

[Wanted Man]

Yeah, actual support for Israel is mostly fringe radical support, rather than casual sympathy. Whereas many people will casually express sympathy for the Palestinians. This is a bit of progress compared to what it was like before, at least in this country. Because a lot of people used to hold that they must sympathise with "the Jews" for various reasons (a different story entirely), while support for Palestine came only from very specific groups, usually those on the "same" side in the Cold War.

The situation is inversed now. Israel is now only strongly supported by most nationalists (except for some old-school nazis who are still so strongly anti-semitic that they do not care about the "muslim threat" or tosh like that) and explicitly zionist lobby groups, who often spread hasbara with specific Israeli instructions. Or the really radical neo-con crusaders, like the horrible Brigitte Gabriel (http://www.free-lebanon.com/LFPNews/2006/July/July16/July16a/july16a.html).

[LOLseph Stalin]

You know, I used to be pro-Israel but then as I've learned more about the situation I realized both sides were to blame. They're both reactionary terrorist groups and the Palestinian and Israeli Proletariat should just unite to stop both groups.

[Yehuda Stern]

Are you actually trying to say that the Palestinians are as much to blame for their oppression as the Zionists? If so, then I'm going to have to tell you that you didn't just "use" to be pro-Israeli.

[benhur]

Are you actually trying to say that the Palestinians are as much to blame for their oppression as the Zionists? If so, then I'm going to have to tell you that you didn't just "use" to be pro-Israeli.

You've cleverly twisted his words (but that's nothing new, is it?). He blamed the reactionary on both sides, and specifically insisted that the workers from both sides must unite. How does this amount to blaming Palestinians?

Give it up, Yehuda. Your attempts are pretty pathetic nowadays, you sound like a bobkindles clone. As an Israeli citizen, you probably feel guilty about what the state is doing, but that doesn't mean you must go so far as to defend racist, sexist, homophobic loonies like hamas. If you claim to be leftist, then organize the working class from both sides, show the Palestinians the danger of religious fundamentalism instead of supporting them.

[Yehuda Stern]

benhur, you have been effectively destroyed at every debate you've engaged at so far. Kindly shove your advice and two-bit psychology where the rest of us don't have to hear it.

EDIT: You know, since you've been so kind as to provide me with your sage advice, allow me to repay the favor: why don't you come here and tell Israeli workers all about the sort of organization you want to build. Then, go to Gaza and tell the Palestinian workers there that they are reactionaries and are just as much to blame for their oppression as the Zionists. Hopefully, you'll receive enough hits to the head to knock some smarts into you.

[LeninBalls]

Palestinian and Israeli Proletariat should just unite to stop both groups.

Not to jump on you again, but...

There's just one problem with that. The Israeli proletariat support Israeli imperialism and the Palestinian proletariat hate the Israeli one.

Hamas are the fighters of the Palestinian proletariat, and they're supported by the Palestinian people. I don't see why it's so crazy to support them.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I have a better idea. Why don't I just stay out of this conversation completely...

[AvanteRedGarde]

Yeah, actual support for Israel is mostly fringe radical support, rather than casual sympathy. Whereas many people will casually express sympathy for the Palestinians. This is a bit of progress compared to what it was like before, at least in this country. Because a lot of people used to hold that they must sympathise with "the Jews" for various reasons (a different story entirely), while support for Palestine came only from very specific groups, usually those on the "same" side in the Cold War.

The situation is inversed now. Israel is now only strongly supported by most nationalists (except for some old-school nazis who are still so strongly anti-semitic that they do not care about the "muslim threat" or tosh like that) and explicitly zionist lobby groups, who often spread hasbara with specific Israeli instructions.....

I think what you are missing here is that Western anti-zionism is basically an opposition not only to the Zionist settler state, but also ther own governments and western imperialism as a whole. Whereas, support for Israel get channels inward through the system, anti-zionism is basically on the fringes and non-popular.

[AvanteRedGarde]

I have a better idea. Why don't I just stay out of this conversation completely...

You are not even trying to argue your points anymore???

[AvanteRedGarde]

...If you claim to be leftist, then organize the working class from both sides, show the Palestinians the danger of religious fundamentalism instead of supporting them.

That's all great and all, but that aspect is only going to be brought about through the struggle and liberation of the Palestinian people against their oppressors. Revolutionary forces need to become a part of the struggle and that basically means having some degree of tactical unity with Hamas. Only this way can more revolutionary forces find a better footing in this particular struggle.

In any case, it certainly won't come about by taking the 'hands off' approach.

P.S. Sorry for the post melee

[Yehuda Stern]

I have a better idea. Why don't I just stay out of this conversation completely...

Probably the best idea I've heard from a neturalist in a while.

[Wanted Man]

You know, I used to be pro-Israel but then as I've learned more about the situation I realized both sides were to blame. They're both reactionary terrorist groups and the Palestinian and Israeli Proletariat should just unite to stop both groups.
Equalising the two is also completely mistaken, in my opinion. How does the country of Israel compare to the political group of Hamas? There would be no "need" for resistance groups with reactionary politics if imperialism was to be kicked out of the region. For that reason alone, the politics of equalisation are another poor consequence of the politics of neutralism.


Give it up, Yehuda. Your attempts are pretty pathetic nowadays, you sound like a bobkindles clone. As an Israeli citizen, you probably feel guilty about what the state is doing, but that doesn't mean you must go so far as to defend racist, sexist, homophobic loonies like hamas. If you claim to be leftist, then organize the working class from both sides, show the Palestinians the danger of religious fundamentalism instead of supporting them.
This is pretty rich. Some kiddo telling an anti-zionist Israeli citizen that he is being too militantly opposed to his own bourgeoisie. Reminds me of the story of some German "anti-German" twat who told an IDF defector that he was a "traitor to his country". Who the hell do you think you are? Wait, that isn't relevant. You're just full of shit as usual. I have a lot of time for opposing viewpoints, and I'll happily debate people who are full of liberal pacifist ideas of "neutralism", that the bourgeoisie promotes because nobody will really support militant zionism. But you should just fuck off.


I think what you are missing here is that Western anti-zionism is basically an opposition not only to the Zionist settler state, but also ther own governments and western imperialism as a whole. Whereas, support for Israel get channels inward through the system, anti-zionism is basically on the fringes and non-popular.
Absolutely, thanks for this addition, I fully agree. It is painfully obvious that our own bourgeoisie massively supports Israel with all the resources at its disposal. In my earlier post, I referred to public opinion and how it has changed for the better over the past decade or so. Unfortunately, sympathies are of little use as long as there is no promotion of revolutionary defeatism, of agitating for the defeat of our own imperialist bourgeoisie. But that's another story for another post.

[Revulero]

wtf, after reading all these arguments I'm shocked to know there are leftist who support Hamas.

[LOLseph Stalin]

wtf, after reading all these arguments I'm shocked to know there are leftist who support Hamas.

Yea, I was quite surprised too. I'm sure you saw my posts, but if you didn't I say both sides are at fault.

[Revulero]

I still say the zionist are to blame for this conflict, but that doesnt mean that we should support Hamas. Hamas was created in reaction to israeli imperialism. I do agree that proletarians from both sides should unite to overthrow both zionism and Islamic fundamentalism, but sadly I don't see this happening anytime soon since both groups are being mislead by hate created by both Hamas and Israel.

[BobKKKindle$]

I still say the zionist are to blame for this conflict, but that doesnt mean that we should support Hama

Most of those who say that they "support" Hamas do not actually identify with Hamas or any other resistance movement politically, in the sense of agreeing with the ideological principles and methods of Hamas, but recognize that Hamas is the leading section of the resistance to the IDF in Gaza, and on that basis support Hamas in its capacity as a resistance movement - in other words, they support the struggle against the IDF regardless of which organization it is being led by. This is the right position to take, because any struggle that strikes blows against imperialism is progressive, primarily because the potential for class struggle is restricted as long as imperialism is the focus point of political activity and struggle, and by supporting such struggles we can break down the national-chauvinism of workers who inhabit imperialist states and currently benefit from the imperialist exploitation of oppressed nations, as in the case of Israel and Palestine.


but sadly I don't see this happening anytime soon since both groups are being mislead by hate created by both Hamas and Israel

The workers who support Hamas and are part of the resistance movement are not behaving irrationally at all, because imperialism, manifested in the form of the military aggression of the IDF, is the single biggest threat to the safety of individual workers and their communities, and so workers are pressured to do anything they can to protect themselves and repel the incursions of the IDF. This is not limited to Palestine, and it has nothing to do with workers being decieved by Hamas - in every situation of national oppression, when the severity of imperialism has become so intense that the domestic class struggle has been pushed into a position of only minor significance, workers have supported and conducted military resistance, often through organizations that are controlled by hostile class forces, such as the petty-bourgeoisie. Broader support for Hamas is also rational, because Hamas is the sole provider of essential services such as healthcare and education, and this is one of the problems that socialists in Gaza will need to overcome in order to win over the working-class and take the place of Hamas as the leadership of the resistance.


You know, I used to be pro-Israel but then as I've learned more about the situation I realized both sides were to blame.

Arguing that both sides are at fault is unhelpful, because a neutralist position along these lines tends to limit its analysis to the simple question of who committed the first act of aggression for any given conflict, without acknowledging the historical legacy of the situation, or the unequal distribution of power and resources between the two sides. Marxists recognize that military conflicts are not just isolated political events, they are part of an imperialist world-system, which itself is a stage in the development of capitalism, defined by the division of the world into rival spheres of control and dominance, and for that reason we base our positions on what will best allow the proletariat of every nation to cast off its prejudices and liberate itself from capitalism through socialist revolution. This means supporting struggles against imperialism, even when we do not always agree with the political character of the organizations that are leading these struggles, as in the case of Afghanistan and the Taliban, and even when the organization in question has acted in what may appear to be a needlessly provocative way, as, some would argue, in the case of the most recent conflict in Gaza.

[Revulero]

I care who the resistance is being led by, what if the Hamas resistance is met with success (we know that this isnt currently possible) , wouldnt that put them in power? With that being said I dont know how supporting any organization with reactionary beliefs is progressive. Hamas aims to destroy not only Israel, but all Israelis. Hamas is fueled by hate and hate is not a solution to this current problem. The real alternative solution we leftist should support is the unity of both Israelis and Palestinians in overthrowing both systems.

[BobKKKindle$]

I care who the resistance is being led by, what if the Hamas resistance is met with success (we know that this isnt currently possible) , wouldnt that put them in power?The Palestinian working class is currently living under the rule of Hamas in Gaza, because the local government is controlled by Hamas, and Hamas came to power fairly, through an election that received the authentication of impartial and external observers such as the UN. It is obvious, based on this, that Palestinian workers would prefer to live in an economically-viable state subject to the control of Hamas if doing so allowed them to be free from the constant threat of being attacked and bombed by the IDF, even if being ruled by Hamas involved the imposition of draconian and anti-worker policies. This is, once again, rational, because there does exist a universal hierarchy of needs - rational beings rank survival and access to basic necessities as being more important than enjoying political freedoms, because our ability to exercise the latter depends on the former. It would be absurd to suggest that the current situation of Palestinians is somehow preferable to the prospect of living under a stable Hamas-led dictatorship, however much we may disagree with the organization's aim and principles.

Ultimately, however, this is besides the point, in that, in the unlikely event that Hamas is able to force Israel to make meaningful concessions, and establish a state that is not threatened by an Israeli invasion, there is no reason to assume that Palestinian workers would simply sit back and live under an authoritarian capitalist government for the rest of time. The main effect of national oppression from a socialist perspective is to overlay all other social and political struggles, such that, as long as workers are living in a situation of national oppression, the intensity of class struggle is diminished, for the simple reason that the main source of oppression lies not in the economic privileges of the domestic ruling class, or even in the anti-worker policies of the embryonic state, but in the military presence of a foreign occupying power, which uses both objective and subjective violence in order to maintain its position as a dominant force and exploit the working population. If we accept this, then it becomes clear that the resolution of the national question means that class struggle is able to emerge, as workers recognize that merely having political independence does not automatically lead to their economic grievances being addressed, or the national economy being able to develop, due to the role of informal imperialism, and the desire of the newly-formed national bourgeoisie to accumulate capital and secure its material privileges through exploitation. There is, in other words, a shift in political activity away from military resistance to imperialism, and towards class struggle. This dynamic has historically led to a division within the nationalist movement whereby the section led by the bourgeoisie makes a compromise with the imperialist ruling class and supports the domestic suppression of political opposition in order to prevent the movement from seeking to push anti-imperialism to its ultimate conclusion - the abolition of capitalism, conducted through international class struggle. It is partly for this reason that socialists need to have an active role inside the anti-imperialist struggle so as to provide a focal point for class struggle and working-class organization once the national question has been addressed.

These dynamics are complex, but I recently made a more detailed and lengthy post on exactly this issue here (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1379710&postcount=50). The following essay is also a good analysis of why Marxists support anti-imperialist struggles: ABC of National Liberation Movements by Hal Draper (http://www.marxists.org/archive/draper/1969/abc/abc.htm)


Hamas aims to destroy not only Israel, but all Israelis.It's not my job to defend Hamas, but this is untrue.

[R_P_A_S]

So do Palestinians know about U.S. groups being supportive of them?

what the hell happened to my thread?

[AvanteRedGarde]

List the groups and their numbers. Maybe the numbers are so insignificant that it would be downright embarrassing if Palestinians knew how few people vocally support them.

Also, if we are talking about conditions in the UK and US, how many protesters were from Middle East descent and otherwise felt some sort of tangible cultural/social connection to Palestinians? What percentage were people with western backgrounds?

[Yehuda Stern]

What happened to your thread? The question was answered and we moved on. Get over it.

[R_P_A_S]

What happened to your thread? The question was answered and we moved on. Get over it.

Ok I'm over it! thanks for letting me know other wise I would of dwell on this for the rest of my life.

[redSHARP]

so couldn't one support a Marxist Palestinian liberation group and not the Hamas political group?

[LOLseph Stalin]

so couldn't one support a Marxist Palestinian liberation group and not the Hamas political group?

It would make alot more sense. They would actually be for the workers while opposing Israeli imperialism at the same time. Hamas may be Anti-imperialist, but they're also reactionary.

[Yehuda Stern]

so couldn't one support a Marxist Palestinian liberation group and not the Hamas political group?

I don't support Hamas, nor any of the Palestinian Stalinist groups (there are no Marxist groups in Palestine that I know of). The ISL supports the Palestinian resistance against Zionism, regardless of its leadership.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Name one of these "Marxist" Palestinian groups that you choose to throw your mighty weight behind. You seem amazingly uneducated about the situation, preferring instead to throw out random, yet predictable postulations.

Off the top of my head I can think of the PFLP. News flash though. They consider themselves united in the cause of Palestinian National Liberation. I support the PFLP, Hamas and all other groups united in the cause of Palestinian National Liberation.

[Yehuda Stern]

Name one of these "Marxist" Palestinian groups that you choose to throw your mighty weight behind.

Didn't I just say there wasn't one...?


You seem amazingly uneducated about the situation, preferring instead to throw out random, yet predictable postulations.


Ah, but as we shall shortly see, things are the other way around:


Off the top of my head I can think of the PFLP. News flash though. They consider themselves united in the cause of Palestinian National Liberation.

Really? There's a left-wing group in Palestine called the PFLP? And they consider themselves "united in the cause of Palestinian national liberation"? So good that you're telling me! I didn't know, as I just spent the greater part of my adult life as a Marxist and anti-Zionist political activist.

Look. I get that all sorts of Stalinists have a big fetish for the PFLP. And that is your right, I suppose. But this group collaborated with the PLO, supports the two stage solution, and was on the side of Fatah when it tried to carry out a coup against the elected Hamas government. So maybe you're the one who is uneducated. Maybe you should learn a thing or two about Palestine, and then come give me a lecture about those "united" groups. OK?

[AvanteRedGarde]

Yehuda,

I was reply to a previous poster and referring to nominally 'Marxist' parties, speaking nothing to the actualy quality of their Marxism. I believe the PFLP would count.

Can you provide a link to about PFLP siding with Fatah during the Hamas-Fatah conflict. I was under the impression that they attended a recent conference on something like 'anti-imperialism and islam' that brought together a number of international groups, including Hamas. I could go over the transcripts, but I could have sworn the conferenced passed a number of resolution on the cooperation of forces like Hmasa and the PFLP.

That's not to say we both couldn't be right. PFLP maight be vacillatory.

First I'm accused of having a fetish for Hamas, then PFLP? Like I said, i support those who are resisting imperialism. Insofar as the PFLP and Hamas doing resisting, I support them.

[Yehuda Stern]

I see, I apologize then for the way I replied. At any rate, after Hamas' victory, Israel began a crackdown on several political groups in Palestine, including the PFLP, and then it began siding with Hamas to some extent. Beforehand, it was part of the PLO along with Fatah, and was on its side and against Hamas. I'll look for sources on that for you.