Zeitgeistism

[Dimentio]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II8N7QPvNhw&eurl=http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=zeitgeist&emb=0&aq=f

How would you define it?

[Dimentio]

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/17/nyregion/17zeitgeist.html?_r=1

I mean, since it seems to have really gained a foothold in the USA, how would we classify it?

[pastradamus]

To me it seems to fit into a very broad leftist scope coupled with a vast appreciation of modern technology. I haven't read their whole description but from a glance thats what I get.

[davidasearles]

Is there anything at all in this not already more comprehensively covered in the first couple chapters of Capital?

And what's up with the left's seeming infatuation with words with suffixes ist and ism?

[Dimentio]

Is there anything at all in this not already more comprehensively covered in the first couple chapters of Capital?

And what's up with the left's seeming infatuation with words with suffixes ist and ism?

Your just jealous. Why not be happy that it seems successful? I mean, the ZG movement already got hundreds of thousands of members, with a weight on the USA.

[Bright Banana Beard]

They even have their website http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

There even some response that it Marxism agenda, but I would say they been brainwashed into believing USSR was failure.
They (some people who think "communism is evil") sucks due to:
1) They never actually study the material condition during the USSR era.
2)They accept the anti-communist information and think American/CIA went there is the proof when in fact, the CIA is also part of government that want to destroy USSR. There is even American that sympathize to USSR but their information never been release to the public of USA.
3) They literally believe in Rand's word against socialism
4) Austrian School anyone? They the best example that it is a anti-communism agenda.

[Dimentio]

They even have their website http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/

There even some response that it Marxism agenda, but I would say they been brainwashed into believing USSR was failure.
They (some people who think "communism is evil") sucks due to:
1) They never actually study the material condition during the USSR era.
2)They accept the anti-communist information and think American/CIA went there is the proof when in fact, the CIA is also part of government that want to destroy USSR. There is even American that sympathize to USSR but their information never been release to the public of USA.
3) They literally believe in Rand's word against socialism
4) Austrian School anyone? They the best example that it is a anti-communism agenda.

Uh, have you actually seen Zeitgeist Addendum?

It is quite the antithesis to the Austrian school.

[Kassad]

These are the same people that link arms and sway back and forth; praying for the revolution to come. Peter Joseph and the Zeitgeist types have stated consistently that they are against any type of violent revolution and they claim to be opposed to Marxism and communism. Basically, this is another diversion in the workers and the socialist movement. It's abhorrent to what we should stand for, as ideal, innovative societies are not just going to spring forth and the elitist bourgeoisie will step aside; forsaking all the power they worked to hard to attain. Instead, these societies and revolutionary technocrats will be ridiculed and demonized by the corporate imperialist media in the same manner that all other socialist movements are demonized.

All socialists are labeled as authoritarians. All socialists are labeled as fascists. All socialists advocate mass murder. These ridiculous assertions are absurd, but they are widely believed by those who accept the corporate line of business and exploitation. What makes this movement, especially since it is peaceful with no means of workers revolt and no real outline for liberation, any kind of force to be considered powerful? It is a totally irrelevant campaign, as instead of focusing on liberation and class struggle, it focuses on surrealist socieities with the fantasy that people will suddenly realize their failure and the exploiting class will fade away.

Peter Joseph has wasted his valuable influence and moment of fame on giving notice to an irrelevant group with no means of class struggle or emancipation. We have no reason to support this movement.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Uh, have you actually seen Zeitgeist Addendum?

It is quite the antithesis to the Austrian school.

I am not referring to the movie, but some user comment that talking about the movie that you can see where they download or watch it as piratebay and googlevideo.

[Dimentio]

These are the same people that link arms and sway back and forth; praying for the revolution to come. Peter Joseph and the Zeitgeist types have stated consistently that they are against any type of violent revolution and they claim to be opposed to Marxism and communism. Basically, this is another diversion in the workers and the socialist movement. It's abhorrent to what we should stand for, as ideal, innovative societies are not just going to spring forth and the elitist bourgeoisie will step aside; forsaking all the power they worked to hard to attain. Instead, these societies and revolutionary technocrats will be ridiculed and demonized by the corporate imperialist media in the same manner that all other socialist movements are demonized.

All socialists are labeled as authoritarians. All socialists are labeled as fascists. All socialists advocate mass murder. These ridiculous assertions are absurd, but they are widely believed by those who accept the corporate line of business and exploitation. What makes this movement, especially since it is peaceful with no means of workers revolt and no real outline for liberation, any kind of force to be considered powerful? It is a totally irrelevant campaign, as instead of focusing on liberation and class struggle, it focuses on surrealist socieities with the fantasy that people will suddenly realize their failure and the exploiting class will fade away.

Peter Joseph has wasted his valuable influence and moment of fame on giving notice to an irrelevant group with no means of class struggle or emancipation. We have no reason to support this movement.

Most likely, socialism will probably rise after the self-destruction of capitalism and the mass-deaths that will bring. At an earliest rate, I expect it could already start to happen, but the best-before date will finally pass around 2070.

[ex_next_worker]

At an earliest rate, I expect it could already start to happen, but the best-before date will finally pass around 2070.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Dimentio]

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

I sense primmie bullshit. :lol:

[Kassad]

It's a surrealist fantasy to thing that revolution will happen at the blink of an eye and the bourgeoisie shackles will just magically fall off of the proletarian class. It is ridiculous to think that we should postpone class struggle until the opportune time, as there is much we can do right now to progress the struggle. It's also incredibly irritating that you think capitalism will just collapse. In all honesty, these recessions and depressions are inherent in the capitalist system, but the bourgeoisie elitists have the means to place a bandage on the broken system. I don't think revolutionaries can just sit and wait for radical change. They have to make it.

[Dimentio]

It's a surrealist fantasy to thing that revolution will happen at the blink of an eye and the bourgeoisie shackles will just magically fall off of the proletarian class. It is ridiculous to think that we should postpone class struggle until the opportune time, as there is much we can do right now to progress the struggle. It's also incredibly irritating that you think capitalism will just collapse. In all honesty, these recessions and depressions are inherent in the capitalist system, but the bourgeoisie elitists have the means to place a bandage on the broken system. I don't think revolutionaries can just sit and wait for radical change. They have to make it.

Yes, I agree. But you don't need to repeat that like a parrot.

Instead of becoming resentful and angry, become happy that the recruitment base for progressive movements has suddenly widened. It is like you leninists react with a spiteful attitude as soon as any progressive movement with ideals even a little different than yours gain positive attention. It is not a zero-sum game.

The Zeitgeist movement did not turn people away from you, but attracted people who most likely never would have been attracted to you.

[davidasearles]

serpent:

Your just jealous. Why not be happy that it seems successful? I mean, the ZG movement already got hundreds of thousands of members, with a weight on the USA.

das:

Successful at what?

My observation was that the first couple of chapters of capital (published 120 years ago) more comprehensively covers what they cover. Why would someone be jealous of that? The crowning achievement of Capital - that of nailing down and identifying extraction of surplus value at the point of production is totally missing. Consumption in a cycle a bogey man? Please.

[Kassad]

That's ridiculous. We could recruit millions and millions of people to support the eradication of the monetary system, but if half of them don't have any means of struggle and liberation, they are merely dead weight. This isn't one of those 'Oh, you communists and your petty disagreements.' This is a matter of revolutionary struggle and what Peter Joseph is doing is raising a significant group of people and preaching revolutionary socialism with absolutely no means of attaining it. Thus, we now have an organization that could have rallied significant support for a strict ideology of revolutionary socialism, but instead, he chose to be petty and divisive with a whole lot of new age bullshit that has absolutely no means of achieving emancipation of the proletariat in the face of bourgeoisie colonialism, imperialism and manipulation. I'd say it's a pretty serious issue.

[Dimentio]

That's ridiculous. We could recruit millions and millions of people to support the eradication of the monetary system, but if half of them don't have any means of struggle and liberation, they are merely dead weight. This isn't one of those 'Oh, you communists and your petty disagreements.' This is a matter of revolutionary struggle and what Peter Joseph is doing is raising a significant group of people and preaching revolutionary socialism with absolutely no means of attaining it. Thus, we now have an organization that could have rallied significant support for a strict ideology of revolutionary socialism, but instead, he chose to be petty and divisive with a whole lot of new age bullshit that has absolutely no means of achieving emancipation of the proletariat in the face of bourgeoisie colonialism, imperialism and manipulation. I'd say it's a pretty serious issue.

If only half of 250 000 people are interested in revolution, that is yet
125 000 people. Moreover, I politely disagree that the Venus Project are new age people. While they surely are not a political or a revolutionary movement, I don't really think that we could attain our goals without a vision to where we are going, or where we should strive to go. While socialism has been very explicit with the means, it has also been very vague with the ends.

As for the Zeitgeist movement in itself, we should really study why it has become popular, instead of just ditching out. How could it come that it has gained speed so fast? What conditions made it that well-known?

[Kassad]

I'm not saying that The Venus Project is a new age thing. I'm saying that both Zeitgeist films provide the 'we are all one consciousness,' 'our bodies are not what is real' kind thing. Don't get me wrong, for I am one that promotes that ideology and I am a supporter of that philosophy that people like Bill Hicks and Jiddu Krishnamurti promoted. Regardless, that consciousness is not supernatural. It is not some metaphysical force that is beyond the grasp of humanity. In truth, I see 'truth' as one with our development, as the entire point of human existence is to find the essence of truth. The truth in our purpose, our reasoning and our unity. Regardless, this consciousness evolves with us consistently. In the thoughts we remember and the ones we suppress; in the benevolent actions we partake in and the malevolent ones. I fear that Peter Joseph and The Zeitgeist Movement project consciousness and human unity as spiritual; something that is separate from us. In truth, we are truth. We are evolution. We are innovation.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see some of Fresco's schemes put in place in a post-revolutionary society. Fresco's models promote alternative means of energy and sustainability without the profit motive in society. The core of the manipulation in consciousness that the elite and bourgeoisie exploit is that oneness; the selflessness we all have, but it is suppressed by our conditioning in a sick, twisted system. The Venus Project rejects scarcity and promotes conditioning of collaboration, not exploitation. Regardless, though the ends are vague like you said, the means are as well. I believe Peter Joseph claims that we need to obtain the resources to create an example of one of Fresco's cities and then, as people see the success, they will support the cities en masse and create them all over the world. The idea that the bourgeoisie will just turn over and accept it is, as I've said, surreal. I hope to see The Zeitgeist Movement embrace a more revolutionary means of emancipation in the future.

[Dimentio]

I'm not saying that The Venus Project is a new age thing. I'm saying that both Zeitgeist films provide the 'we are all one consciousness,' 'our bodies are not what is real' kind thing. Don't get me wrong, for I am one that promotes that ideology and I am a supporter of that philosophy that people like Bill Hicks and Jiddu Krishnamurti promoted. Regardless, that consciousness is not supernatural. It is not some metaphysical force that is beyond the grasp of humanity. In truth, I see 'truth' as one with our development, as the entire point of human existence is to find the essence of truth. The truth in our purpose, our reasoning and our unity. Regardless, this consciousness evolves with us consistently. In the thoughts we remember and the ones we suppress; in the benevolent actions we partake in and the malevolent ones. I fear that Peter Joseph and The Zeitgeist Movement project consciousness and human unity as spiritual; something that is separate from us. In truth, we are truth. We are evolution. We are innovation.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see some of Fresco's schemes put in place in a post-revolutionary society. Fresco's models promote alternative means of energy and sustainability without the profit motive in society. The core of the manipulation in consciousness that the elite and bourgeoisie exploit is that oneness; the selflessness we all have, but it is suppressed by our conditioning in a sick, twisted system. The Venus Project rejects scarcity and promotes conditioning of collaboration, not exploitation. Regardless, though the ends are vague like you said, the means are as well. I believe Peter Joseph claims that we need to obtain the resources to create an example of one of Fresco's cities and then, as people see the success, they will support the cities en masse and create them all over the world. The idea that the bourgeoisie will just turn over and accept it is, as I've said, surreal. I hope to see The Zeitgeist Movement embrace a more revolutionary means of emancipation in the future.

I don't agree with Joseph. But I think that while we are waiting for a revolutionary situation to happen, we need not only to organise for a post-revolutionary society, but to also experiment with post-revolutionary models on a limited scale.

[Hyacinth]

That a movement like this is gaining in popularity shows the discontent with the existing system, which is a positive sign. That being said, the movement itself seems almost apolitical, in the sense that they really do not have any idea as to how to get from existing society to the sort that they envision, except through some utopian schemes to construct a model community.

As far as its popularity is concerned in the US, I suspect it is at least partially a function of the propaganda against socialism that has been fed to US residents throughout the Cold War. The term "socialist" is pejorative in the US, and many people have a reaction against the term itself even if they are sympathetic to the ideas. What the Zeitgeist movement demonstrates is that there is indeed sympathy for socialist ideas, even utopian ones, if not presented as such. This might suggest that we ought to repackage or rebrand socialism/communism/Marxism to avoid the historical baggage associated with the terms. Though, the more important task is just to get the ideas out there, whatever their label.

[Hyacinth]

Another thing, practically one of the reasons I think the Zeitgeist movement has been so appealing to many is because it presents an alternate vision of what society could be like. Communists focus much more on criticizing capitalism than they do on presenting a positive vision of communism itself; this is all well and good, but a positive program for how a post-revolutionary society could be structured seems to be a better way to attract people to a movement. Telling them that capitalism is shitty is fine, but most workers already know this, what they aren't aware of is that there are viable and workable alternatives here and now.

[al8]

I think another, and maybe cardinal, reason for their success is their use of modern media through making and distriputing a slick, well directed documentary, whereas marxists and others have not. That is, we have not exploited this medium. At least not to any significant, comprehensive, qualitative extent.

If a clear, well directed documentary positing our framwork for a new society and our proposed means to get there should be done, it will no doubt contribute to a large boost in our rank and file.

[ex_next_worker]

The criticism, that Joseph and others involved don't have an idea where they would like to go, is incorrect.

http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=66#25

[Led Zeppelin]

I've moved this thread to Learning, though I was tempted to move it to OI.

The Zeitgeist movement seems like a cult to me, a scam to swindle money out of people. Their "leader" (even though they make sure to mention that he's not a "leader" but a "thinker") is also a horribly misinformed idiot.

For example, as a response to the FAQ question; How does The Venus Project compare with Communism?,he replies:



Communism used money and labor, had social stratification, and elected officials to maintain the communists' traditions. Most importantly, Communism did not eliminate SCARCITY nor did they have a blueprint or the methods for the production of abundance. Machine production rather than labor will dominate the future. Perhaps through no fault of their own, they also had to maintain huge military expenditures to protect themselves from invasion of fascistic and capitalistic institutions.

Communism being similar to a resource-based economy or The Venus Project is an erroneous concept. Communism has money, banks, armies, police, prisons, charismatic personalities, social stratification, and is managed by appointed leaders.
Link (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=66#5)

This of course is a fucking joke because obviously their "leader" hasn't bothered to actually read anything by Marx, Engels or Lenin about communism. If he did, he would have known the difference between socialism and communism.

But leaving that aside, how they plan to get to their ideal utopian society is also ridiculous:


Since we begin in a monetary-based society, the means for raising funds to construct this experimental community can be accomplished in several different ways. One is through the production of a major motion picture depicting the advantages of this new social system for all of the world's people. Another possibility is the building of a theme park where visitors would actually experience some of the many benefits of The Venus Project's proposals. Books, videos, blueprints, models, a movie script, and the 25-acre research and development center have already been completed.
Link (http://www.thezeitgeistmovement.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=26&Itemid=63)

So how do they plan to change the capitalist system? By building a theme park and making movies (that are mostly watched by tech-geeks with no understanding of politics or history).

This movement is not serious, it's not viable, and it's not unique. Throughout history there have been Utopian movements such as this one - some of them scams - aiming to "build a utopia on earth" without comprehending anything about how to get there or even why it is necessary to get there. Hundreds of thousands of people were attracted to those movements as well.

So what? They all died out (or in some cases committed mass suicide), which was inevitable given the inanity of their platform. The kind of people who are attracted to the Zeitgeist movement are nothing to be happy about either. A person I know who ranted quite frequently about foreigners being of a lower class, that property is holy, that anyone who gets welfare is a bloodsucking leech who takes away his hard-earned tax money, etc. recommended me to watch the Zeitgeist documentary.

This person, who is an idiot know-it-all, would not take any criticism of his movement. I thought that perhaps this movement was theoretically more advanced than I could "handle", skimming through their site I see that even a 12 year old who has paid attention in history class could refute this crap.

[Dimentio]

The Zeitgeist movement is not even an organisation, but rather some sort of tendency with at least some organisations existing within. You are also confusing the Zeitgeist movement and the Venus Project, as well as Zeitgeist The Movie with Zeitgeist: Addendum.

That bit about communism and socialism... many in America believe that both mean "big government" and no private property.

And why move this to learning? We are discussing several openly non-progressive currents in Learning. I think you misunderstand the reason behind this thread, and that is to explain why the Zeitgeist movement has turned into a giant current within a very short time, activating previously non-political people, while the academic left largely has failed to achieve the same thing in America.

[benhur]

This of course is a fucking joke because obviously their "leader" hasn't bothered to actually read anything by Marx, Engels or Lenin about communism.

Don't get excited, comrade. Did it ever occur to you that he may not be attacking the communist ideology, but only the historical facts such as korea, vietnam, pol pot etc.? All these, unfortunately, have a communist stamp.

[Led Zeppelin]

The Zeitgeist movement is not even an organisation, but rather some sort of tendency with at least some organisations existing within.

The fact that it is not an organization is an addition to the fact that it is a Utopian tendency without any coherent or viable plans to get to what they envision to be their ideal future society.


You are also confusing the Zeitgeist movement and the Venus Project, as well as Zeitgeist The Movie with Zeitgeist: Addendum.

What is the difference between the two? I got both quotes from the official Zeitgeist site, so whatever the difference may be, those points still seem to stand.


That bit about communism and socialism... many in America believe that both mean "big government" and no private property.

That's a logical fallacy. I believe it's called argumentum ad populum; just because many people believe something doesn't make it true.

Many in America also believe in "the American dream" (though that number is declining by the day), that doesn't say anything or mean much in the face of scientific facts, such as the difference between a socialist and a communist society as described by at the very least Lenin (to avoid starting another side-discussion on this :p).

The fact that their main theoretical "thinker" doesn't know this simple fact, a fact which most people who have read something about history and political ideologies know, says a lot about his worth as a thinker and especially the worth of his criticisms of communism.


And why move this to learning?

Because in my opinion the Theory forum is made for discussions of revolutionary leftist, and therefore progressive, politically theoretical subjects and tendencies. Zeitgeitism, a term which you seem to have invented, does not fit into that description by its own admission.

A thread made on early French Utopianism asking the merits of it would also be moved out of Theory by me, only in that case I would move it to History. I wish I could do that with the Zeitgeist threads as well, but hopefully soon enough that will happen.


We are discussing several openly non-progressive currents in Learning. I think you misunderstand the reason behind this thread, and that is to explain why the Zeitgeist movement has turned into a giant current within a very short time, activating previously non-political people, while the academic left largely has failed to achieve the same thing in America.

Actually I did understand the original intent of the thread, and the question you pose is more a learning question than a theoretical one.

You were asking how the Zeitgeist movement managed to get so much support amongst people (even though I don't really consider 150.000 people to be much support, and I wonder about the validity of those numbers and the quality of those people, did they just donate some cash or sign up on their mailing list?) while the revolutionary left has failed to achieve the same amount.

In other words; what have we done wrong that they have done right?

Well, that is in my opinion a learning question moreso than a theoretical political one, which is what the Theory forum is for. Add to that what I said above, that Zeitgeitism is not a revolutionary leftist or even a political tendency, and that sums up my decision to move it to Learning (even though as I said I was tempted to move it to OI since it is clearly an opposing ideology by its own admission, see the quote I posted).

As for the answer to that question of yours, I answered it in my previous post.


Don't get excited, comrade. Did it ever occur to you that he may not be attacking the communist ideology, but only the historical facts such as korea, vietnam, pol pot etc.? All these, unfortunately, have a communist stamp.

I wasn't getting excited. A theoretical "thinker" of a movement which claims to show the way foward for humanity should be able to tell the difference and discern the difference between a nation which has been stamped as communist and a nation which is not by any definition, even its own, communist.

In other words; in your high-school text-books you may read that Vietnam was communist, that the USSR was communist, that China was and perhaps still is communist etc. but when you advance to college, you (hopefully) learn that those nations don't identify as communist but as socialist.

I am of course assuming that the hypothetical person never reads anything beside their high-school textbooks and perhaps other news sources such as Fox, and never bothers to pick up a book about an ideology which the person still considers to be bad and criticizes.

In cases like that of this person I shouldn't assume too much, I suppose.

[Dimentio]

I have not argued that it is true, but if 90% of the population were stalwart believers in the flatness of the Earth, or that communists are eating babies, would it really be wise to advocate a communist organisation. As far as I'll have seen, the Zeitgeistians generally avoid being labelled as communists for the same reason as a lesbian daughter of baptist fundamentalist preachers avoid showing her sexuality.

The Venus Project is really communist, although non-marxist and avoid being labelled as communist.

[Tatarin]

I think they got it going when they combined conspiracy theories and new age-ism of the first movie.

[Raúl Duke]

I don't know... I don't really sense this "Zeitgeistism" to be a big deal in the U.S....it seems more like an internet phenomenon.

[Dimentio]

I don't know... I don't really sense this "Zeitgeistism" to be a big deal in the U.S....it seems more like an internet phenomenon.

Yep... with 1,4 million people.

[ex_next_worker]

I've moved this thread to Learning, though I was tempted to move it to OI.

This just proves that there are certain people out there who simply can't be worked with. Long live sectarianism, long live the vanguard.

[Q]

I have not argued that it is true, but if 90% of the population were stalwart believers in the flatness of the Earth, or that communists are eating babies, would it really be wise to advocate a communist organisation. As far as I'll have seen, the Zeitgeistians generally avoid being labelled as communists for the same reason as a lesbian daughter of baptist fundamentalist preachers avoid showing her sexuality.

The Venus Project is really communist, although non-marxist and avoid being labelled as communist.

Perhaps, but since their "solutions" entail boycotting companies, having a mentality change or, as LZ pointed out, building a theme park (sic!) they're having a utopian outlook. That having said, I do think this is potentially interesting for us. If there are meetings for example, we could intervene and propagate socialist ideas (building a mass fightback, etc).

What is vital in this, is that this reaches militant layers of working people. If it only reaches a new generation of hippies, we obviously have no message here.

[Kassad]

1.4 million people? Where the fuck did you get this number from? Last I checked, Peter Joseph said that had a quarter of a million members, and in truth, that is just people who registered on the website. Hell, I get e-mails from almost every socialist party and organization in the country. That doesn't make me a member. All that Zeitgeist: Addendum and The Venus Project are is a part of the conspiracy culture, as I call it. These are usually high schoolers and minors who swarm the internet looking for revelations and stumble upon documentaries like this. Without doing any real research, they become a massive crusader for truth and end up like a decent amount of people at my school. Here's the kicker. When Zeitgeist I came out, they all became conservatives; rejecting the income tax, advocating the gold standard and such. Now, with Zeitgeist: Addendum, they are crusaders for justice and the abolition of the monetary system! Does this paint a picture for you? It should. This culture is malleable and potentially destructive, as their ideology is not stable or sound in any means of the word. All that is needed is the next documentary to shatter their illusions and 'enlighten' them. I can't fathom why you put faith in this group.

[Dimentio]

Perhaps, but since their "solutions" entail boycotting companies, having a mentality change or, as LZ pointed out, building a theme park (sic!) they're having a utopian outlook. That having said, I do think this is potentially interesting for us. If there are meetings for example, we could intervene and propagate socialist ideas (building a mass fightback, etc).

What is vital in this, is that this reaches militant layers of working people. If it only reaches a new generation of hippies, we obviously have no message here.

I don't claim they have the right solutions, or even any plans or internal structure. But they have activated a lot of people.

[Q]

I don't claim they have the right solutions, or even any plans or internal structure. But they have activated a lot of people.

Yes, but you're ignoring my point: what kind of people is it mainly attracting? If there are any activists present, we should be there. If not (only hippy-like people), then this is a waste of time. Also, are there any kind of meetings around this? Organising for a working class fightback is rather difficult if this is merely an internet phenomena.

Having said that, Addendum makes several good points and is a good watch in general, this could be used as a propaganda tool by us in an "eye-opener" style of meetings, but instead us proposing real alternatives. So, if the movement proves useless, just use the tools instead ;)

[Dimentio]

Yes, but you're ignoring my point: what kind of people is it mainly attracting? If there are any activists present, we should be there. If not (only hippy-like people), then this is a waste of time. Also, are there any kind of meetings around this? Organising for a working class fightback is rather difficult if this is merely an internet phenomena.

Having said that, Addendum makes several good points and is a good watch in general, this could be used as a propaganda tool by us in an "eye-opener" style of meetings, but instead us proposing real alternatives. So, if the movement proves useless, just use the tools instead ;)

From what I have seen on the forum, there are some sensible people. They are often hanging around the TVP area. Most of the idiots are hanging around the Philosophy and Religion forum. I think they have an awkward moderator system, and trolls are roaming around freely.

[Wanted Man]

Yep... with 1,4 million people.
1.4 million people what? People who know what the word "zeitgeist" means? This is idiocy, I guess the Scientologists are also actually a revolutionary mass movement who have picked up where the academic left have failed. You old lefties are just jealous!

[Qayin]

Why dont we make internet documentaries with scary background sounds and flashy graphics?