BNP smashed with hammers

[Pogue]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/manchester/7943556.stm

BNP got fucked over bigtime, hammer-right? Geddit?

I wonder if hammers were chosen for the symbolism...

:D

[Sam_b]

Wow, what a fantastic way of getting working class people on our side :rolleyes:

[Pogue]

Wow, what a fantastic way of getting working class people on our side :rolleyes:

If only the German citizens had realised that chanting at Hitler could have stopped the deaths of 6 million jews?

[Trystan]

Wow, what a fantastic way of getting working class people on our side :rolleyes:

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Last I checked, most of the working-class were not kissing BNP ass.

[Sam_b]

If only the German citizens had realised that chanting at Hitler could have stopped the deaths of 6 million jews?

Comparing smashing a BNP member with a hammer to the Holocaust? Nice.


What the hell is that supposed to mean?

Smashing up some individual BNP members will not build a strong anti-fascist movement, and has alienatory consequences. I'm not going to be like some of the antifa wannabes on here that merely respond to this sort of shit with ":D :D :D"

[hugsandmarxism]

That made my day :D

[Pogue]

Comparing smashing a BNP member with a hammer to the Holocaust? Nice.



Smashing up some individual BNP members will not build a strong anti-fascist movement, and has alienatory consequences. I'm not going to be like some of the antifa wannabes on here that merely respond to this sort of shit with ":D :D :D"

Right, because fascists throughout history have never had an physical agenda. Are you just reeling from the fact that the SWP sell out leadership ditched militant anti-fascism in the 70s and 80s and left a hardened brave few to fight on in AFA?

A sad fucking day when a self-proclaimed leftist is willing to let the thugs behind a movement responsible for the murder of millions lies down because it 'wont build a strong anti-fascist movement'. Perhaps you'd like it if we all just hid in our homes until we're 'strong' enough to fight the fascists? Whatever.

I'm comparing your lack of willingness to act with the fact that the people of Germany didn't manage to smash Nazism before it grew too powerful, yes. I think you're ignorant of history.

[Pogue]

Comparing smashing a BNP member with a hammer to the Holocaust? Nice.



Smashing up some individual BNP members will not build a strong anti-fascist movement, and has alienatory consequences. I'm not going to be like some of the antifa wannabes on here that merely respond to this sort of shit with ":D :D :D"

Also, this is funny seeing as you have 'Victory to the Intifada!' in your sinature.

Wannabe freedom fighter militant anyone? Go back to University.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/8066/hammertime.jpg

[Trystan]

Smashing up some individual BNP members will not build a strong anti-fascist movement, and has alienatory consequences. I'm not going to be like some of the antifa wannabes on here that merely respond to this sort of shit with ":D :D :D"

So, how many IDF troops have you shot at? :rolleyes:

[Sasha]

you know how that is with most white midle class leftists, we are all for the violent revolution & uprisings, as long as it happens in southamerica or asia, here we just wave placards and march from a to b chanting. Still not sure if it is just cowardice or a new form of orientalism....

around here we call them NIMBY's (not in my backyard revolutionarys)

[Pogue]

you know how that is with most white midle class leftists, we are all for the violent revolution & uprisings, as long as it happens in southamerica or asia, here we just wave placards and march from a to b chanting. Still not sure if it is just cowardice or a new form of orientalism....

around here we call them NIMBY's (not in my backyard revolutionarys)

spot on, the intellectualist student types

[MikeSC]

Fascism thrives when it's marginalised. Intellectually, as a movement, it doesn't have a leg to stand on- but when you start making victims out of these people, you're just pushing them further right. This is an attempted murder- apart from it being completely morally wrong, it's tactically a very shit way to keep the BNP in the position of ridicule they deserve.

This can only build support for the far-right. No one will have been won over to the anti-fascist cause by this.

EDIT: Come on, this is no act of revolution. This is hitting some bloke in an insignificant minority party with a hammer.

[Sasha]

spot on, the intellectualist student types

its not exclusive to students, i know a lot of crust punks who act excactly the same..
and i also know some leftists students who are quite the contrary (i was a student for the last couple of years) but you are right, it is closely conected to class, elitism and white male privilege.

[Sam_b]

Right, because fascists throughout history have never had an physical agenda. Are you just reeling from the fact that the SWP sell out leadership ditched militant anti-fascism in the 70s and 80s and left a hardened brave few to fight on in AFA?


Is this the same 'sell out leadership' of an organisation that you approached me about on here a few months ago, requesting to join our student section? :rolleyes:

Your history is skewed, as usual, and in your typical style cannot back it up with anything empirical. The SWP played a large part in organising the ANL back in the 70s and 80s, which had a strong physical presence and saw off the threats to communities by the NF. This was part of a large movement, which sadly, is not as strong today as it was back then.


A sad fucking day when a self-proclaimed leftist is willing to let the thugs behind a movement responsible for the murder of millions lies down because it 'wont build a strong anti-fascist movement'. Perhaps you'd like it if we all just hid in our homes until we're 'strong' enough to fight the fascists? Whatever.

Another BNP councillor got elected a few weeks ago. Your isolated actions seem to be working, eh? I've had this discussion in another thread quite a while ago, and I will attain that most of these actions have lost political significance, that are ridiculous nostalgia trips for some obsessed with propoganda of the deed, and in no way at all replace a large and diverse mass movement against fascism. Fucking build it rather than go out with hammers for christ's sake.


I'm comparing your lack of willingness to act with the fact that the people of Germany didn't manage to smash Nazism before it grew too powerful, yes. I think you're ignorant of history.

Your history is terrible. Just like your recollections in the threads on National Liberation where you think the Jerusalem Post counts as a valid source. You cannot compare the spread of fascism in Germany in the 1930s with what is going on today. Look at the debates in the KPD and the German Social Democrats about freedom of speech and no-platformism.


Also, this is funny seeing as you have 'Victory to the Intifada!' in your sinature.

Wannabe freedom fighter militant anyone? Go back to University.

This is why you come off as a complete embarrassment: because you have no arguments and resort to petty slandering and poor theory. Tell me, how offering my solidarity to the Palestinian people in a country gripped with imperialism is in any way related to propoganda of the deed acts in an imperialist country, against (compared with Palestine) a much more isolated threat?

And again, what do you have against university? It seems like in many of your posts, especially against bob, you feel this changes some sort of class conditioning?

[/QUOTE=Trystan]So, how many IDF troops have you shot at?[/QUOTE]

Again, what has solidarity with the Palestinian working class against the IDF have anything to do with this?

[Verix]

Its hammer time!!

[Sam_b]

I also think its ironic that this thread is degenerating into people on an internet message board trying to prove that they are somehow more working class than others.

My, what a uniting and revolutionary act. First we storm the winter palace, then we annex the universities!

[Pogue]

Fascism thrives when it's marginalised. Intellectually, as a movement, it doesn't have a leg to stand on- but when you start making victims out of these people, you're just pushing them further right. This is an attempted murder- apart from it being completely morally wrong, it's tactically a very shit way to keep the BNP in the position of ridicule they deserve.

This can only build support for the far-right. No one will have been won over to the anti-fascist cause by this.

How does it thrive when its marginalised? It thrives when it becomes an open and obvious mass movement. Thats what attacks like these are designed to prevent.

How is it completely morally wrong to attack fascists? They're scum, believe in deporting and segregating white and black, and most of the BNP deny the Holocaust. The leadership supports Hitler. They're replicating the NSDAP in Germany from the 30s. Are you blind?

If the BNP try to mobilise and get the shit kicked out of them and get chased from town, I think the tactics clearly worked, which it has. The NF were defeated physically.

Obviously there needs to be political action alongside physical action. But that doesn't take away the need for people willing to fight these people who have a very clearly defined physical agenda.

[Sasha]

Fascism thrives when it's marginalised. Intellectually, as a movement, it doesn't have a leg to stand on- but when you start making victims out of these people, you're just pushing them further right. This is an attempted murder- apart from it being completely morally wrong, it's tactically a very shit way to keep the BNP in the position of ridicule they deserve.

This can only build support for the far-right. No one will have been won over to the anti-fascist cause by this.

no its not, no it wont.

keeping physical pressure on the traditional extreme right keeps them small, isolated, paranoid and prone to infighting.
i know, just compare the state of the extreme right in the netherlands with that of flanders.
same with england, what destroyed the BUF? the 43 group. What was one of the main factors in the demise of the NF & BM (next to maggie thatcher stealing their support ofcourse) the stewards group & AFA.
even if you dont believe me that (physical) confrontation let to their downfall you'll have to agree that in contrast to your statements they sure as hell dint grow/profit from it.

[Pogue]

I also think its ironic that this thread is degenerating into people on an internet message board trying to prove that they are somehow more working class than others.

My, what a uniting and revolutionary act. First we storm the winter palace, then we annex the universities!

Yes, because the pinnacle of revolutionary activity would be giving military support to a racist, sexist and homophobic militant group on the other side of the world. Is Martin Smith off to Palestine with an AK by any chance?

I'm just referring to how you're a stereotype and show all the signs of being a trendy keyboardist, thats all.

[Sam_b]

The NF were defeated physically

Yes, with a mass movement behind it.

Tell me, which mass movement do these guys belong to?

[Sasha]

No one will have been won over to the anti-fascist cause by this.


a. i think you are wrong, i think that putting the thugs in their place is sommething a lot of people can sympathyse with. at least a lot more than with some snobs waving placcards and shouting boo.

b. we ware not in it for sympathy, this isn't a PR campaign, we want to stop fascists from meeting and roaming around unhinderd.
no one likes us? we dont care...

[Sam_b]

Well, H-L-V-S, this 'trendy keyboardist' is having to borrow money to fly home to the UK next week, for three or four days only, because he's up in court after being arrested while confronting the BNP last month.


Yes, because the pinnacle of revolutionary activity would be giving military support to a racist, sexist and homophobic militant group on the other side of the world. Is Martin Smith off to Palestine with an AK by any chance?

Again, we're not talking about resistance in a country threatened with imperialism? Why are you bringing it up? Is this just another way to try and slander the SWP (seeing as you were wrong on our tactics in the 70s and 80s, and again let's remind everyone that you wanted to join our student section a matter of months ago), or are you hiding away from the real argument, which I've also written above and you have chosen to ignore?

Will this be like the Hamas thread where you were unable to give any straight answers?

[Pogue]

Is this the same 'sell out leadership' of an organisation that you approached me about on here a few months ago, requesting to join our student section? :rolleyes:

Before I realised how shit your organisation is, and how unfreidnly and pathetic your lot are at responding to people.


Your history is skewed, as usual, and in your typical style cannot back it up with anything empirical. The SWP played a large part in organising the ANL back in the 70s and 80s, which had a strong physical presence and saw off the threats to communities by the NF. This was part of a large movement, which sadly, is not as strong today as it was back then.

The ANL didn't protect anyone. The militants were in AFA. Alot of your members quit the SWP because your great leader condemned physical fights.




Another BNP councillor got elected a few weeks ago. Your isolated actions seem to be working, eh? I've had this discussion in another thread quite a while ago, and I will attain that most of these actions have lost political significance, that are ridiculous nostalgia trips for some obsessed with propoganda of the deed, and in no way at all replace a large and diverse mass movement against fascism. Fucking build it rather than go out with hammers for christ's sake.

Clearly your tactics of building a mass movement didn't stop them getting that councillor either.



Your history is terrible. Just like your recollections in the threads on National
Liberation where you think the Jerusalem Post counts as a valid source. You cannot compare the spread of fascism in Germany in the 1930s with what is going on today. Look at the debates in the KPD and the German Social Democrats about freedom of speech and no-platformism.

Nazis grew up as a small party to holding power. BNP are small at the moment.




This is why you come off as a complete embarrassment: because you have no arguments and resort to petty slandering and poor theory. Tell me, how offering my solidarity to the Palestinian people in a country gripped with imperialism is in any way related to propoganda of the deed acts in an imperialist country, against (compared with Palestine) a much more isolated threat?

You need to get over your crutch of an argument on imperialism, because its shite and leads ot embarassing situations such as SWPers attacking people who condemn Hamas, your poster boys.


And again, what do you have against university? It seems like in many of your posts, especially against bob, you feel this changes some sort of class conditioning?

I just think your a spoilt middle class kid who uses his radicalism to appear different.

So, how many IDF troops have you shot at?



Again, what has solidarity with the Palestinian working class against the IDF have anything to do with this?


The fact you accused militant anti-fascists of being wannabes when you're begging it trying to be part of a movement on the other side of the world which would laugh at you if they heard a bunch of university posers were giving them 'military support', whilst condeming militant action agaisnt fascists at home.

[Pogue]

Well, H-L-V-S, this 'trendy keyboardist' is having to borrow money to fly home to the UK next week, for three or four days only, because he's up in court after being arrested while confronting the BNP last month.



Again, we're not talking about resistance in a country threatened with imperialism? Why are you bringing it up? Is this just another way to try and slander the SWP (seeing as you were wrong on our tactics in the 70s and 80s, and again let's remind everyone that you wanted to join our student section a matter of months ago), or are you hiding away from the real argument, which I've also written above and you have chosen to ignore?

Will this be like the Hamas thread where you were unable to give any straight answers?

Well done. Your a militant. Keep it up. Did you have to engage in fighting with them, then?

Yeh lets remind everyone I wanted to join the SWP. Lets also thank fuck I realised its full of middle class student radicals and Hamas apologists before it was too late.

What is it with you middle class twats and talking about ignoring your arguments? You type such shit, often its not worth it.

[Sasha]

Your history is skewed, as usual, and in your typical style cannot back it up with anything empirical. The SWP played a large part in organising the ANL back in the 70s and 80s, which had a strong physical presence and saw off the threats to communities by the NF.

:blink:.... :laugh:

wasn't this when you lot earned your honory title, the lollipop brigade, for being totally usseless wankers who only could wave your stuppid signs around and got infamous for trying to flog your newspapers in the midle of the batle for waterloo?
wasn't this after you kicked all the stewards out of the party for "squadism"?
wasn't it your leadership who during a rock against racism concert activily prevented people from going to defend their/the communities against an fascist rally by spreading false information from the stage?
piss off....

[MikeSC]

How does it thrive when its marginalised? It thrives when it becomes an open and obvious mass movement. Thats what attacks like these are designed to prevent.

How is it completely morally wrong to attack fascists? They're scum, believe in deporting and segregating white and black, and most of the BNP deny the Holocaust. The leadership supports Hitler. They're replicating the NSDAP in Germany from the 30s. Are you blind?

If the BNP try to mobilise and get the shit kicked out of them and get chased from town, I think the tactics clearly worked, which it has. The NF were defeated physically.

Obviously there needs to be political action alongside physical action. But that doesn't take away the need for people willing to fight these people who have a very clearly defined physical agenda.Well just look- we have a very unpopular mainstream. The BNP, because of juvenile stunts like this, are the only alternative that ever gets into media. And they're repeatedly getting into the media as the underdog. And they'd be completely insignificant if they had to advertise themselves based on what they are, rather than based on how the hated mainstream is using dirty and violent tactics to quell them.

And whatever they believe, they should be allowed to express it, like anybody else. Joining the BNP doesn't make you inhuman. It's a vile, false viewpoint, sure- but so what? This isn't going to change it.

And they do thrive on the backs of people who feel alienated. The BNP has built up a cult of the underdog, of people who feel dissatisfied and have turned to the more readily available fascism rather than socialism. I think it's abhorrent that holding any viewpoint makes people "fair game" for violence- these people are generally powerless and harmless, there's no need. They don't have an Oswald Mosley to lead them into streetfights, they're going the political route. And this is only gonna strengthen them in their convictions, and strengthen their "credibility" as a political force, as the victims rather than aggressors.

[Sam_b]

Alot of your members quit the SWP because your great leader condemned physical fights.

Source it, please.

And you're insane if you think that the ANL had no physical confrontation with the National Front. Solihull and Blair Peach springs to mind almost instantly.


Clearly your tactics of building a mass movement didn't stop them getting that councillor either.

I agree. But at least our tactcis seem to be getting responses in places like Stoke-On-Trent, getting members of the community onto the streets against the BNP's attempts to take mayorship.

The rest of this is ridiculous: the fact is that imperialism and the IDF has fuck all to do with anti-fascist tactics in the UK. You're clutching at straws here. Obviously i've not shot at any IDF forces because I don't happen to live in Palestine. Of course, what this means in your debate is little: if you argue this line you argue that people from the other side of the world cannot give their solidarity, understanding and support to the brave people who are fighting against imperialism. Or do you disagree? I wonder if this is just a logical conclusion of your remarks in another thread, against the SWP for covering more on the ethnic cleansing in Gaza than on the BNP :laugh:

A few months ago you were trying for CC membership. Now you seem to lose all your ideas of class politics trying to attack myself and SWPmembers for being 'middle class'. Of course, completely a baseless reaction, but you've never been the best at citing cources, eh?

[Pogue]

Source it, please.

And you're insane if you think that the ANL had no physical confrontation with the National Front. Solihull and Blair Peach springs to mind almost instantly.



I agree. But at least our tactcis seem to be getting responses in places like Stoke-On-Trent, getting members of the community onto the streets against the BNP's attempts to take mayorship.

The rest of this is ridiculous: the fact is that imperialism and the IDF has fuck all to do with anti-fascist tactics in the UK. You're clutching at straws here. Obviously i've not shot at any IDF forces because I don't happen to live in Palestine. Of course, what this means in your debate is little: if you argue this line you argue that people from the other side of the world cannot give their solidarity, understanding and support to the brave people who are fighting against imperialism. Or do you disagree? I wonder if this is just a logical conclusion of your remarks in another thread, against the SWP for covering more on the ethnic cleansing in Gaza than on the BNP :laugh:

A few months ago you were trying for CC membership. Now you seem to lose all your ideas of class politics trying to attack myself and SWPmembers for being 'middle class'. Of course, completely a baseless reaction, but you've never been the best at citing cources, eh?

Its more just a pejorative for someone who doesn't work or udner the realities of working class life, and lives a priviliged life, but I apologise for any confusion.

The CC sounds like a joke full of people like you, so to be honest, fuck it.

[Sasha]

Source it, please.



unfortunaly, [...] moves where afoot by the SWP leadership to oust the troublesome "squadists". Now that the treat from the fascists appeared to have receded and they no longer needed the Squads to prottect their meetings an papersales, we were viewed as a political embarrasment. The workingclass character of the squads did not sit easily with the overwhelming middle-class membership of the party. [...] There was climate that the squadists were fair game for any accusation, no matter how ludricous, because we were viewed as being politically expendable. It was a witch hunt, [...]
It was clear that the party hierarchy of tony cliff and duncan hallas and the rest of the central commitee wanted us out of the swp, and were busy engineering the conditions that would enable them to accomplish this. [...] party hacks travelled from branch to branch spreading the word, and the majority of the swp membership blindly accepted it.
The Rochdale incident was the final straw for the SWP.
They were embarrasad by the whole thing and disowned us. Never mind that we had gone out there to help this person fight off an attack by NF skinheads. Never mind that we had been jailed by the state for our efforts, and never mind that the SWP were supposedly committed to overtrowing the very same system that has locked us up. It was more a case of "how do i explain this in the staff common room tomorrow?" and "prison is probably the best place for them". [...] it was nothing more than McCartyism under another name.
I recieved my expulsion letterfrom the SWP while i was still in prison. I had not even been given the option of defending myself before the "control comission", although i don't suposseit would have made any difference.
I had had an SWP "red fist" tatooed on my arm the day before recieving my letter, wich pissed me off no end. [...}] A lot of squad members on the outside also recieved expulsion orders during this period and a lot more resigned in protest.
No doubt the SWP and the left as an whole believed they had seen the last of usand the comfortable middle-class game of left wing politics could now carry on as before without all these ruffians stirring things up.
They were in for a shock, because while we were inside [...] a new organisation called Red Action [...] was formed by a number of people who had either left or been expelled from the SWP and who wanted to carry on the fight against the fascists. The emergence of Red Action coincided with the winding up of the ANL, witch came to a falthering and inglorious halt sometime during 1982.source: "No Retreat" by Dave Hann and Steve Tilzey, Milo Books, 2003, page 87 - 89

more info: http://www.spikemagazine.com/1104noretreat.php
order here (http://www.borders.co.uk/book/no-retreat/132220/)and here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/No-Retreat-Dave-Hann/dp/1903854229)

[Sam_b]

That seems to contradict a lot of what actually happened. Of course, there's no figure about how many apparently 'resigned' - the SWP has recruited and retained membership consistently throughout these years. Though I do not accept that these were mass resignations. Red Action was tiny, tactically ridiculous (and yes squadist) and i'm actually quite glad that this ridiculous tactic was not allowed to spread in our party.

[Sasha]

wow what an indept response
and here i am, already regreting i took the effort of copying tree pages out of an book.
thank you for confirming that you are an elitist partonising git.
now please fuck off...

[Sasha]

oh no wait, lets play your kind of games;

That seems to contradict a lot of what actually happened.
source it please

[Sam_b]

wow what an indept response


now please fuck off...

Irony much? :laugh:

I think the only elitist thing here are the tactics of (thankfully) a small minority who refuse to work with broader forces and think that furthering the struggle equates to jumping people outside of meetings with weapons.

To the dustbin of history. Fucking right.

[JimmyJazz]

What's the goal? If it's to prevent the BNP from becoming a mass movement, wouldn't constant coordinated hacking of their website be more effective than hitting individual members with hammers and getting their bloodied, martyr-like mugshots posted on the BBC website?


Nazis grew up as a small party to holding power. BNP are small at the moment.

:lol: worst syllogism ever

[Sasha]

What's the goal? If it's to prevent the BNP from becoming a mass movement, wouldn't constant disrupting of their meetings and scaring them become/remain active be more effective than keyboardwarriorism and what's a better warning to potential activists than getting a bloodied, nonce-like mugshots posted on the BBC website?

fixed ;)

all things aside, why do people here blindly believe it was the antifa's objective to attack the BNP members with hammers instead of their propaganda trailer as is sugested in the articel.
unless i hear otherwise i assume that the BNP bloke just got in the way.

[nuisance]

People do realise that phyiscal confrontation is only one of the tactics deployed by Antifa?

[Socialistpenguin]

Well, I actually live near the area where that shower of bastards decided to show their faces last night. I'd quite happily buy a pint for anyone who caused the fash that much trouble up here!

I think what some people are losing sight of is that physical confrontation CAN prove useful in protecting people as well as kicking the fascists off our streets; 'No Platform' should mean 'No Platform'. However, no-one's saying that it's the be-all-end-all solution to the problem of fascism. There definitely needs to be a valid political alternative to the policies of parties like the BNP.

The 'wave placards and chant' solution to problems like the BNP has a limited effectiveness on its own, to say the least. Pulling stunts like chanting the names of Nazi concentration camps at a BNP meetings will just make matters worse when trying to get the support away from the fascists.

Not to get involved in the debate on the SWP and the Squads, but weren't the Squads originally set up to protect SWP events and paper sales?

[nuisance]

Not to get involved in the debate on the SWP and the Squads, but weren't the Squads originally set up to protect SWP events and paper sales?
Yes, the origional idea of groups to protect SWP activities was brought up by John Deason- who was in the SWP central committee. Then the SWP banned the Squads and then subsequently expelled any of their members that they found to be continuing their militant antifascist activity.
The explusions later gave birth to AFA and Red Action, that were both, funnily enough, used to steward demos held by SWP influenced groups.

[ComradeG1967]

Whats his favorite sport? Throwing the hammer.

Who's his favorite musician? MC Hammer.

I heard he's going to the pub tonight, says he is going to get hammered.

Who's his favorite celebrity, besides MC Hammer? Timmy Mallet.

:D:D:D

[Pogue]

Irony much? :laugh:

I think the only elitist thing here are the tactics of (thankfully) a small minority who refuse to work with broader forces and think that furthering the struggle equates to jumping people outside of meetings with weapons.

To the dustbin of history. Fucking right.

Not really. I don't know if you were around at the time of the NF and the BM (British movement) being active in London and the rest of England but they were a major threat, carrying out racial attacks. They had a clear, obvious physical agenda, especially the BM, who didn't even try to hide their fascism. AFA and Red Action were thus formed, often as quite informal groups, more the better for staying undetected, who would attend mass protests held by the ANL and basically defend people against the Nazis, as well as basically trying to physically kick them off the streets.

Becuase they knew what the NF and BM did. They knew what the NF and BM wanted to do and would do if they could. So they didn't fuck around. They saw the NF as the biggest threat.

Do you think that members of AFA and now Antifa lived and live in a vacuum outside of anti-fascist politics? Do you think that beyond physically combatting the fascists, they're not interested in politics? Of cours enot. We know that AFA were explicitly revolutionary left wing in their beliefs, and everyone knows Antifa are mainly Anarchist. Yes, they put alot of emphasis on physical combat. That is because the NF do too. What if there was no AFA or Antifa, whom you so wittily and off-handedly condemn to the 'dustbin of history'? Who would have met the NF is combat in the many pitched street battles in the 70s and 80s? If there was no Antifa, worldwide and at home, who would counter the militant fascists so prevalent in Russia, the rest of Europe, including the United Kingdom?

I don't understand the logic that would lead a leftist say it is thankful that the number of militant, left wing anti-fascists around in the 70s and 80s was small. What, you'd rather everyone had just stood around waiting for the NF and BM to kick a few heads in on the next ANL march? No, these 'elitist' 'squadists' were there on the broad anti-fascist mobilisations, defending them. Often, when the ANL (and so, the SWP) directly misfed information on where the Nazis were to avid any clash, the only ones who went to show the fascists they weren't welcome in working class areas of London were AFA. And fucking brave people they were too. I don't see how it would have helped the left at all in the 70s and 80s to not have militant people who knew how to fight on their side. But I suppose thats the point of view one can take 20-30 years later having never participated in militant anti-fascism or been directly at risk from the thugs in the National Front and British Movement, or at least having no idea of what the situation was like.

[brigadista]

its not the 70s and 80s now - conditions are different - now should be about what we are presently faced with not about nostalgia- and therefore an analysis of how we counter this stuff in the present conditions

[Pogue]

its not the 70s and 80s now - conditions are different - now should be about what we are presently faced with not about nostalgia- and therefore an analysis of how we counter this stuff in the present conditions

I don't really see whats different. In place of the NF (fascist roots, alot of fascist members, far-right ideology, racist, white supremacist, pro-segregation, etc) we have the BNP, who are applying the NF tactic which they turned to in the late 70s of trying to appear more moderate and acceptable, whilst still at their core having racism, fascism, pro-segregaiton, etc within their ranks. They have for example many thugs and violent types from the NF and braoder fascist movement in their ranks, including known paedophiles and rapists.

So we have the same isutation of white supremacist, extremist violent group masqeurading as acceptable and moderate, and then also on the side dissident fascists up for a ruck.

The physical and political threat from the BNP is growing. It'd be hard to judge whether or not at this stage they're as threatening as the NF were in the 70s, because although they're polling dangerously well, they have yet to have the power to hold major marches/demonstrations besides the odd leafletting event. However it'd be absolutely insane and naive for us to assume they will not grow. Because they are and they will. And we have to stop this. The more confident and mainstram they get the more dangerous they get, both physically and politically. Militant anti-fascist groups aim to be a hard, no comprimise counter-balance to the fascists, in that they aim to meet them and destroy them, or at least kick them off the streets, scare them. Basically, nip them in the bud, pull them up by the roots.

As the left wing grows, and also as the far-right grows, the existence of militant sectors willing and ready to fight physically will become more neccesary. But so will political action too. Antifa try to do this, but obviously they are limited by numbers and the very nature of the group. Hopefully, if a strong left wing movement grows, there will be hardened militants attached to it. And in the unfortunate but not unlikely event of an increase in support for BNP, militant fascists will become a major threat oncemore. And thus we need to counter that. And its stupid to suggest we wait for them to grow and become as they were in Germany in the 30s and England in the 70s and 80s. Why would we wait? We know what they're like, who they are. We know how we have to deal with them. They have a physical agenda, and this has to be met, alongside a political campaign against them. Quite simply, it'd be stupid to assume we wont need to fight.

[Dr Mindbender]

wot, no sickles? :D

[Pogue]

wot, no sickles? :D

lmao, someone had to say it, i considered it myself but you know...

[Wanted Man]

It seems stupid that there's so much focus on that oh-so poor fascist guy with the bloodied face. It sucks for the guy, but it stands in shrill contrast to what the BNP have in mind for Britain should they get power. So if they want to avoid violence and extremism, maybe they shouldn't attend BNP rallies. It's bad karma.

That the media should fetishise that one bloodied guy is to be expected. After all, every journalist spends his entire life having a wank over the idea that someday, they get to photograph a victim of violence and write a heavy-handed article about how awful it is. Their whole lives lead up to that moment. The significance of stopping the fascist trailer is not taken into account at all. That way, you can have a nice smooth "non-political" condemnation of violence, while the BNP can take up the victim role.

But it's stranger still that people on the left are also falling over it. Terrifying images apparently work well on everyone. Nobody is suggesting that stopping that trailer at this particular moment is going to "build a mass movement", but that doesn't mean it's automatically useless shit. I don't know if the people who did this are "a small minority who refuse to work with broader forces". Maybe they are. In that case, sucks to be them. But that doesn't suddenly make them deserving of blanket condemnation.

And of course, a mass movement also isn't going to be built by just finger-pointing and condemning the other guys who are using baaaad methods... Solidarity, what's that?

[Dr Mindbender]

It seems stupid that there's so much focus on that oh-so poor fascist guy with the bloodied face. It sucks for the guy, but it stands in shrill contrast to what the BNP have in mind for Britain should they get power. So if they want to avoid violence and extremism, maybe they shouldn't attend BNP rallies. It's bad karma.

That the media should fetishise that one bloodied guy is to be expected. After all, every journalist spends his entire life having a wank over the idea that someday, they get to photograph a victim of violence and write a heavy-handed article about how awful it is. Their whole lives lead up to that moment. The significance of stopping the fascist trailer is not taken into account at all. That way, you can have a nice smooth "non-political" condemnation of violence, while the BNP can take up the victim role.

But it's stranger still that people on the left are also falling over it. Terrifying images apparently work well on everyone. Nobody is suggesting that stopping that trailer at this particular moment is going to "build a mass movement", but that doesn't mean it's automatically useless shit. I don't know if the people who did this are "a small minority who refuse to work with broader forces". Maybe they are. In that case, sucks to be them. But that doesn't suddenly make them deserving of blanket condemnation.

And of course, a mass movement also isn't going to be built by just finger-pointing and condemning the other guys who are using baaaad methods... Solidarity, what's that?

maybe i'm naive, but i still like to believe that the vast proportion of british people think 'meh' at violence directed to the bnp because thankfully the majority of people acknowledge what racist dogshits they actually are.

The echos still linger in peoples minds of the admiral duncan bombing, and as long as that remains i think people will remain indifferent to this sort of attacks.

[Das war einmal]

But it's stranger still that people on the left are also falling over it. Terrifying images apparently work well on everyone.

You actually find this strange? Well I dont really feel comfortable with this either, but if he didnt join the BNP this wouldnt have happened to him so its more like his own fucking fault.


Anyway:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTpQOZcNASw

[Melbourne Lefty]

Everyones a little bit right here.

Firstly beating up BNP people and ripping up their propaganda DOES allow them to play the victim, look at their website to see what I mean.



The most disturbing thing about the systematic campaign of intimidation and violence against lawful and peaceful BNP election campaigners, which led to the brutal attack on Tony Ward in Leigh yesterday, is that it is openly supported and encouraged by senior Labour and Tory MPs.
The violence is being organised by the Labour Party front group UAF (Unite Against Fascism). At least 57 MPs are named on the UAF’s website as sponsors, and supporters of its thuggery.
BNP Leader Nick Griffin has today challenged these MPs to condemn unequivocally last night’s attack and all other instances of violence and intimidation carried out by UAF thugs. “Many Establishment politicians have recently been demanding that Sinn Fein MPs should condemn the murderous violence perpetrated by dissident republicans”, said Mr Griffin. “But the truth is that Sinn Fein have less control and influence over groups such as the Real IRA than the Labour party in particular has over its close allies and ideological bedfellows in the UAF.
The liberal media often express concern about attacks by government-sponsored thugs in places like Zimbabwe, but there’s really no difference between that and what is happening here. Any establishment politicians who can look at the photograph of Tony Ward’s bloodied face and continue to sponsor the criminal gang responsible for the attack is quite simply inciting further violence.


If the BNP is siding with Sinn Fein im pretty sure they are up to something, and its easy to see what.

ON THE OTHER HAND Physically opposing the BNP helps warn off prospective members and makes venues nervous about hosting them [although it seems the Police are doing that on their own if you believe the BNPs whining].

The question of course is which is more important?

Personally I dont know.

And on the other issues groups with a "squadist" mentality have done much to keep fascist groups bottled up. And they still have a valuable part to play, but even their own members will recognise that a true broad based anti-BNP initiative is needed.

In short, a mass rally blockading a BNP meeting or march does more damage to their morale and membership than a dozen isolated attacks on activists. Beating their bodies makes them angry not scared, especially if they think they are winning. Breaking their spirit keeps the poor souls out of politics for much longer than a hospital stay.

Think about it, if a group of 2 dozen fash beat you up would it stop you? Or would it make you even more determined to go on?

That the BNP stopped marching in possibly the smartest move they have made since Mosley, no marches means no targets for mass rallies, and since the only targets available are few and far between and in Isolated areas [if you dont count Blackpool] the UAF has not had much luck getting the usual uni student crowd out, let alone a decent number of unionists [that one really good demo in London aside].

You can blame the UAF for this but I dont see how they or anybody else could have done any different.

The BNP changed tack in the late 90s in response to shrinking membership and being kicked up the arse every time they went out in the streets.

In response anti-fascists did the same things as always.

The BNP then put Nick Griffin in charge who put aside his own anti-semitism and began cleaning up the organisation for a chance at a real tilt for political influence.

In response anti-fascists continued with the same tactics, and the BNP has continued its slow but steady growth. It now has more members than any neo-fascist/right-populist group since the high point of the NF in the 70s.

I think its fair to say that by creating a target poor enviroment the BNP has created a situation where it doesn't really need to worry about us any more.

They have accepted that there will be occaisional attacks on them and they have decided they can accept this if it means they get to play the non-aggressor.

For the last year or so they have been refering to UAF in press releases and propaganda as "Labour party supporters" and you can bet they are saying it on the doorsteps as well. As you can see above they name the UAFs affiliated Labour MPs to trade on the fact that many in their target demographic HATE labour.

In short they are trying to turn the UAF campaigns against them into an overt positive for them electorally.

New tactics are needed. And I want people here to be honest, what can be done that is not already being done to stop the rise of the BNP?

Even if BNP support drops after a tory victory, it will mean the tories have bragging rights about "Stopping the far right", and the BNP will still be there, stagnant perhaps, but growing ever stronger roots in working class communities which should be OURS by right.

The BNP will never take power, but they can do long term hard to repair damage to working class solidarity that with the current state of the revolutionary left movement may prove impossible to turn back.:(

[welshboy]

Well, H-L-V-S, this 'trendy keyboardist' is having to borrow money to fly home to the UK next week, for three or four days only, because he's up in court after being arrested while confronting the BNP last month.
Um, come now Sam. You're misrepresenting what happened. You make it sound as if you were actually doing owt militant. Sorry boyo but that's just not true. It's crap you got nicked, you did however get nicked for bugger all.


Again, we're not talking about resistance in a country threatened with imperialism? Why are you bringing it up? Is this just another way to try and slander the SWP (seeing as you were wrong on our tactics in the 70s and 80s, and again let's remind everyone that you wanted to join our student section a matter of months ago), or are you hiding away from the real argument, which I've also written above and you have chosen to ignore?
The tactics of the SWP in the 70's/80's and 90's are pretty well documented.

Sadly, another obstacle Martin had to face were the SWP. If one were to believe the SWP, then you'd think that Tariq Ali and the original ANL single-handedly stopped the otherwise irresistible rise of the NF. This could hardly be further from the truth. The effective elements of the ANL were expelled from the SWP for being "squaddist", many going on to form Red Action. As Martin details, the people who got together to stop the NF were not, in the main, members of this party or that party but independent working class men and women organising autonomously. No single party or alliance could have mounted the lengthy campaign against the NF which continued through the 1970s and into the 1980s. But that won?t stop the likes of the SWP trying to claim credit ? once again! ? for something in which they actually played a minor role.
Can probably find more if I could be bothered. Talk to some former Red Action comrades and find out about what happened back then.
I was member of the SWP back in the early 90's and had many arguments with SWP/ANL folk who condemned physical confrontation with the fash and the word they used was 'squaddist'.


And you're insane if you think that the ANL had no physical confrontation with the National Front. Solihull and Blair Peach springs to mind almost instantly.
Oh and for the record Blair Peach was twatted by a copper.


Will this be like the Hamas thread where you were unable to give any straight answers?

Well that depends on whether you are going to continue supporting Fascists like Hamas.

ow you seem to lose all your ideas of class politics trying to attack myself and SWPmembers for being 'middle class'.

Sam, your party abandoned class politics a long time ago, before you were born. The base of the party is the universities and it is pretty much completely divorced from the everyday lives of working class people.
And Sam you are soooooo middle class it's unbelievable. :D


That seems to contradict a lot of what actually happened.
You weren't there and your only source of information about it is from people with a vested interest in, and history of, distorting the truth. This isn't your fault but if you talk to folk from outwith the party about those times you will get a much different tale.

[welshboy]

New tactics are needed. And I want people here to be honest, what can be done that is not already being done to stop the rise of the BNP?
Putting actual effort into building strength in our own communities? Forming residents associations that aren't controlled by political parties which simply alienates people? Building workplace resistance groups that organise across indutries?
or we could wave purple placards at them? Yellow is just sooo 1989 dahlink! :)

[Wanted Man]

Putting actual effort into building strength in our own communities? Forming residents associations that aren't controlled by political parties which simply alienates people? Building workplace resistance groups that organise across indutries?
This, basically. I think a lot of anti-fascist movements are already working towards that, but it's not going to happen overnight. But they do progress. Considering that, it's even stranger that other people are sneering at them with: "You're not building a mass movement, so there!"

I'm starting to think that even if the anti-fascists do accomplish this, there will still be people who favour photo-op protests and will say: "You're not building a mass movement!" :blink:

[BobKKKindle$]

The basic issue at hand here is that the struggle against fascism should be carried out through a mass movement consisting of working people and other progressive forces - isolated attacks that allow the BNP to portray itself as having been victimized at the hands of dangerous and extreme individuals will not stop the working class from turning to the BNP and other fascist organizations, and will not allow the radical left to win over workers and build consciousness. There is a parallel here with the recent attacks directed against individual British soldiers serving in Northern Ireland, as the organizations which planned and conducted these attacks do not have a mass support base within the working class and therefore cannot be seen as an expression of a genuine anti-imperialist movement, in contrast to, say, Hamas, which does command mass support, despite its numerous political flaws, and is currently leading a resistance movement against imperialism in Gaza, involving working people who suffer under the yoke of Israeli imperialism on a daily basis, and therefore have a direct interest in weakening the grip of the IDF. If people think that isolated acts of violence and intimidation can defeat fascism, then why not extend this approach to the struggle against capitalism by rejecting any need for working-class struggle and political organization rooted in the ranks of the working-class, and reducing our strategy to that adopted by groups such as the Red Brigades and the RAF - violence directed against individual bourgeois politicians without the involvement or support of workers?

It's also amusing to see HLVS repeating the myth that the SWP is "middle class". Clearly they have no experience of political activism, and feel content to make assertions from their armchair.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Putting actual effort into building strength in our own communities? Forming residents associations that aren't controlled by political parties which simply alienates people? Building workplace resistance groups that organise across industries?


It would be a new and fresh idea...


This, basically. I think a lot of anti-fascist movements are already working towards that, but it's not going to happen overnight. But they do progress. Considering that, it's even stranger that other people are sneering at them with: "You're not building a mass movement, so there!"

Im pretty certain that 99% of building a mass movement with the potential to last is done behind closed doors. You know, like the BNP do going door to door.:rolleyes:


isolated attacks that allow the BNP to portray itself as having been victimized at the hands of dangerous and extreme individuals will not stop the working class from turning to the BNP and other fascist organizations, and will not allow the radical left to win over workers and build consciousness.


All true.

Isolated attacks or even a strategy of attacks probably wont work right now. Violence only ever works when you can show you have the numbers in public opinion.

And right now, with no workers party of any consequence doing pretty much anything at all in the UK [respect aside] and the BNP winning more and more votes...

Personally I am at a loss. The idea of more community work is a good one, but thats long term work for little short term gain.

Is preparing for the long haul the only answer? Should "Squadist" tactics be used against the BNP to try and restrain their organising ability in the meantime while a community movement is formed?

When I check the news reports I see regular features [the latest was the Peter Hain one] where a dozen people come to the centre of a town holding UAF placards, get their picture taken and then go home.

Why not concentrate on ONE town/area and get hundreds of local people out?

Just a suggestion, if anyone has any better ideas here is the place to put em.

[Fietsketting]

Um, come now Sam. You're misrepresenting what happened. You make it sound as if you were actually doing owt militant. Sorry boyo but that's just not true. It's crap you got nicked, you did however get nicked for bugger all

He was offended that he couldn't sell his papers aqnd start yelling at people? Or did someone didn't pay the full price of a paper and he went mental on the poor guy?:laugh:

[LOLseph Stalin]

Hehe. A thread about BNP. I'm not even in the UK, but even I know they're nuts. Somebody sent me a video where the leader was being interviewed. He actually seems to think that Racism was invented by Trotsky, a Communist mass murderer who didn't want certain ideas being spread. xD

[Holden Caulfield]

according to Nick Griffin it was by

"Labour Party inspired thugs"

shit!
they are onto us...

[Pogue]

according to Nick Griffin it was by

"Labour Party inspired thugs"

shit!
they are onto us...


Did you find that quote being reported in the Marxist media by any chance? Or did the Jews tell you it?

[AlMack]

I live not far away form this, nearer manchester & the lack of any antifascist groups is quite alarming, given we've got 6 local BNP councillors standing this year, not to mention Blood&Honour turning up to gigs now

SWP/UAF have their place for trots, students etc but its not gonna work in my area tbh

[JohannGE]

It's sad that the word of the bnp seems to be given so much credibility.

Apart from the fact that they can't usualy open their mouths without telling lies, what little evidence we do have seems to suggest they are in this case.

The wound does not look like a hammer blow. Someone making an attack with a hammer would be unlikely to be released on bail.

Looks like a camera man who got too close to the action to me.

---

It’s believed that the BNP “Battle of Britain” themed meeting, claimed to have been scheduled for Leigh and then cancelled, was held in St. Helens (Merseyside) on Friday evening 13th March 2009.

It’s not clear whether the BNP meeting was ever going to be held in Leigh or if the claimed venue was just a diversionary “red herring” from the outset.

Nevertheless it seems that the BNP was also intent on initiating “the battle of Leigh” on the same night.

At about 6:25 pm. a Landrover towing a Liverpool BNP advertising hoarding pulled up on St. Helens Road, Leigh near to Bridgewater Street, where anti-fascist demonstrators, including women and children, were peacefully demonstrating.

A gang of BNP Nazi storm troopers armed with baseball bats, hammers, and other offensive weapons piled out of the Landrover and proceeded to attack the peaceful and unarmed demonstrators. Known Nazi BNP thugs were identified by eye witnesses.

However, before they had chance to inflict any significant violence and injuries on the demonstrators the BNP Nazi storm troopers were defeated by outraged local people who resisted the BNP attacks and overcame them.

During the ensuing melee the BNP advertising trailer and hoarding was overturned and their Landrover was damaged.

It’s understood that there were several injuries and arrests.

Ironically the BNP were quick to call in the police of whom they have recently claimed to be so critical.

Within minutes the Nazi BNP thugs were protected by scores of Greater Manchester Police, who remained on the streets threatening peaceful demonstrators with arrest until after the BNP Landrover and trailer had been ignominiously carted away on a low loader to the jeers of ordinary members of the Leigh public.

Peter Franzen
Leader of the Community Action Party

http://socialistresistance.org/?p=391

[Wanted Man]

words
Well, that kind of sheds a different light on things. Maybe we can get an apology from the people here who jumped to conclusions and immediately attacked the anti-fascists as anti-working class thugs or whatever (of course, "smash the BNP with hammers LOLZ!!" is also a silly response, but of a different kind, IMO). But I'm not counting on much.

[skki]

Fucking lol.

Now we just need someone to finish the job with a sickle.

[Jazzratt]

Reminds me of something. (http://rathergood.com/pigs)

While I doubt actions like this will destroy british fascism on their own I think it's fucking stupid how quick some people are to leap in and attack it.

[Holden Caulfield]

well said Jazzrat

if the working classes take direct action to halt the advanve of fascism in their communities who are we to sit in our ivory towers and tell them they are doing it wrong and that they should join the UAF instead.

On a side note its times like this that affirm my view that the SWP will never be able to engage with the (mainly white) working class in this country, they reek of middle class/petit bourgeois liberalism.

[Melbourne Lefty]

On a side note its times like this that affirm my view that the SWP will never be able to engage with the (mainly white) working class in this country, they reek of middle class/petit bourgeois liberalism.


sadly I have to agree.

But who aside from UAF is out there trying to mobilise large groups out of the community against the far-right?

Hammering the BNP from the streets is a viable short term tactic, but its important to realise the negatives to such tactics as well as the positives.

[Melbourne Lefty]

It’s not clear whether the BNP meeting was ever going to be held in Leigh or if the claimed venue was just a diversionary “red herring” from the outset.

Nevertheless it seems that the BNP was also intent on initiating “the battle of Leigh” on the same night.


They claim the police threatened the Pure nightclub venue not to let them hold the shindig there.

[JohannGE]

Update from local paper (pinch of salt required I think):-

http://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/4211803.Peaceful_protest_ends_in_violence/

There will always be "one"

[Melbourne Lefty]

Update from local paper (pinch of salt required I think):-

http://www.leighjournal.co.uk/news/4211803.Peaceful_protest_ends_in_violence/

There will always be "one"

Un-named source?

Yeah I call BS.

[Fietsketting]

I live not far away form this, nearer manchester & the lack of any antifascist groups is quite alarming, given we've got 6 local BNP councillors standing this year, not to mention Blood&Honour turning up to gigs now

SWP/UAF have their place for trots, students etc but its not gonna work in my area tbh
There used to be a big presence back in the days if i recall well?

[Unclebananahead]

I can't say that I'm shedding any tears for this fascist.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I can't say that I'm shedding any tears for this fascist.

He knew what he was signing up for.

They are making him into a hero of course, theres even talk on the BNP site about creating a medal to give to him.:rolleyes:

My concern is not that cracking a BNP activist on the head is morally or ethically wrong, after all we all know what they would do to us if they had half a chance.

My concern is whether this tactic is actually working in the modern age.

What do the people here think?:confused:

[Holden Caulfield]

don't think of it as a guy being twatted with a hammer, think of it as a section of the local community taking direct action to remove the fascists ability to organise.

Working Class self defence is something that is a good tatic and something I wish to see more of in whatever form it may occur.

[AlMack]

There used to be a big presence back in the days if i recall well?


yeah apparently there was, not no more as people have become complacent in the BNPs long absence

[Melbourne Lefty]

Working Class self defence is something that is a good tatic and something I wish to see more of in whatever form it may occur.


Yeah well at least I can agree with you there.:laugh:

[black magick hustla]

the nf didnt go down because they were beaten up by antifa punk kids but because their rhetoric and policies where used by thatcher. i dont see why antifas get all really happy about the nf when they had thatcher which was the same

[Sasha]

dont be an idiot, thatcher was not an fascist! she was an horribel rightwing ****, and too bad the IRA bomb missed her but no matter how horrible she was it was notting like if the NF got in power (witch they wouldnt have but thats not the point)
thatcher never advocated mass deportations of imigrants, excutions of leftists, disbanding of parlement and all other party's etc etc.

and while thatchers grabing of the (extreme) rightwing vote might have been the final blow i suggest reading up on the subject (start with "no retreat") the combined efforts of the squads/stewardsgroup/rock againts racism/anl where at least as instrumental in the demise of the NF

[nuisance]

the nf didnt go down because they were beaten up by antifa punk kids but because their rhetoric and policies where used by thatcher. i dont see why antifas get all really happy about the nf when they had thatcher which was the same
:rolleyes:
What a mug.
Left-Communists en masse really miss the point of anti-fascism.

[JohannGE]

My concern is whether this tactic is actually working in the modern age.

What do the people here think?:confused:

It's not clear and imo very unlikely that this was a "tactical" bashing. More the outcome of a string of events. I can understand the wish to get physical with these people but it would be a strange thing to deliberately and pre meditatively hit someone on the head with a hammer, especially in broad daylight and in public. It has to be impossible to predict the consequences of a head shot with a hammer and I doubt if even the most committed would think it worth getting a life sentence for the privilege of taking out one fash.

[black magick hustla]

dont be an idiot, thatcher was not an fascist! she was an horribel rightwing ****, and too bad the IRA bomb missed her but no matter how horrible she was it was notting like if the NF got in power (witch they wouldnt have but thats not the point)
thatcher never advocated mass deportations of imigrants, excutions of leftists, disbanding of parlement and all other party's etc etc.

and while thatchers grabing of the (extreme) rightwing vote might have been the final blow i suggest reading up on the subject (start with "no retreat") the combined efforts of the squads/stewardsgroup/rock againts racism/anl where at least as instrumental in the demise of the NF

ive read a little bit about all that stuff about swp squadists and rock against racism etc. and to be fair, i doubt they had as much effect as you say. i think the demise of the nf had more to do with thatcher stealing their thunderbolt than anything else.

if the nf had gotten to power, it would probably have been similar to thatcher. the conditions of fascism did not exist at that time.

[black magick hustla]

:rolleyes:
What a mug.
Left-Communists en masse really miss the point of anti-fascism.

no we dont. its stupid and it is easy activism and the people deporting immigrants and waging war abroad arent boneheaded gutter rightists but liberals.

[Pogue]

no we dont. its stupid and it is easy activism and the people deporting immigrants and waging war abroad arent boneheaded gutter rightists but liberals.

Fascists are also the ones killing people in the streets of Russia and elsewhere. No member of Antifa will think we can solely win by taking part in Antifa actions against boneheads.

I don't see how its easy when so many have been killed or arrested, or why its stupid when you're community is full of nazis like in some areas of Russia.

I think you're opinion on militant anti-fascism is naive and insulting. I'd like to see you 'easily' resisting neo-nazi gangs in Moscow.

[black magick hustla]

on the contrary, it seems you would rather live in russia to rerun your dumb little nostalgic ceremony of yours

[Sasha]

no we dont. its stupid and it is easy activism and the people deporting immigrants and waging war abroad arent boneheaded gutter rightists but liberals.

god... that strawman again...

A. militant antifascism isnt easy, it is unrewarding, dangerous, time consuming work.

B. why do ppl who oppose militant anti-fascism always assume that antifascists are single issue activists :confused:
Although i'll have too admit that on this moment anti-fascism takes up most of my time (since i myself have a social renting house and a job at a collective, housing activism and unionism dropped a fair bit on my list of intrests) i'm involved in a dozen difrent campaings and activist toppics.
and yes, immigrant rights, countering mainstream political racism and anti-deportation struggle are things i'm also quite active in.

[nuisance]

no we dont. its stupid and it is easy activism and the people deporting immigrants and waging war abroad arent boneheaded gutter rightists but liberals.
Thankyou for proving the point made.
Miltant anti-fascism is about creating safe surroundings for the left to organise and disseminate propaganda in, as well as another important point of it being to protect the left. Also, it somewhat strange and politically unaware/naive/shit to believe that organisations like Antifa are not active in resistance against actions of a fascistic nature committed by the State. Most antifascists are also members of other organisations within the class struggle, and are thus is direct confrontation with the capitalist class and their cronies.
No one thinks that anything other than abolishing the capitalist class relations and socialisation of authority will eradicate fascism. However, the way we see it, is that providing a phyiscal edge to confronting the fash can extremley curtail their attempts at organising and subsequently spreading their influence in communities.

[Fietsketting]

no we dont. its stupid and it is easy activism and the people deporting immigrants and waging war abroad arent boneheaded gutter rightists but liberals.

How short sighted. To whom do you turn when they get strong enough to wreck your meetings or when there stealing the leaflets off your stand? Then 'we' are suddenly acceptable I assume? Get from behind your computer and go onto the streets, visit a demo in Germany or more to the east and see how 'dead' fascism is! And please get off your high horse.

You should pay your respects to people who fought long and hard to stop Mosley and his blackshirts, not to mention the NF in their days!

[Devrim]

How short sighted. To whom do you turn when they get strong enough to wreck your meetings or when there stealing the leaflets off your stand? Then 'we' are suddenly acceptable I assume? Get from behind your computer and go onto the streets, visit a demo in Germany or more to the east and see how 'dead' fascism is! And please get off your high horse.

Get off your high horse, and stop moralising. Fascism doesn't exist in any meaningful political way today, and there is certainly no chance of it coming to state power.

I have worked in Eastern Europe, and was involved in political activity there, and didn't see one fascist. In fact, the only time I have ever seen a fascist when involved in political activity was when, over two decades ago as a young anarchist, I went round attacking them. I have never seen them attack a meeting, a picket line or a paper sale*.


You should pay your respects to people who fought long and hard to stop Mosley and his blackshirts, not to mention the NF in their days!

Actually, the guy who could probably be considered the main organiser of the Cable Street march against Mosely, Joe Jacobs, later took up the same position that Marmot is defending now. I can personally remember fighting the UK National Front on the streets. It didn't get us anywhere really.

Devrim

*This is not to say that these things don't happen. It is merely point out they they are perhaps not as frequent as some people like to make out.

[Devrim]

Thankyou for proving the point made.
Miltant anti-fascism is about creating safe surroundings for the left to organise and disseminate propaganda in, as well as another important point of it being to protect the left.

Really, I thought it was mostly about young men running about playing macho games.

Devrim

[Fietsketting]

Get off your high horse, and stop moralising. Fascism doesn't exist in any meaningful political way today, and there is certainly no chance of it coming to state power.*.

Some would say the same about communism. ;)




Actually, the guy who could probably be considered the main organiser of the Cable Street march against Mosely, Joe Jacobs, later took up the same position that Marmot is defending now. I can personally remember fighting the UK National Front on the streets. It didn't get us anywhere really.

I disagree, if you let things take its course they tend to grow. Its easy to be a nazi and go around beating up 'paki's', have rally's and Adolf Hitler memorial concerts and spread your hate around then when you have to consider you will get fierce resistance. Leaflets never stopped them on the streets, militant activism did.

[Pogue]

They clearly they have a physical agenda, the fascists, and thus we have to meet it as such. I don't see why this is so hard to understand for some people. I don't see it about being macho, just neccesary.

[Holden Caulfield]

Fascism doesn't exist in any meaningful political way today, and there is certainly no chance of it coming to state power.
At the moment no; fascists will not take a hold of the state, however the growth of the right comes to the detriment of the left and the working class as a whole. When the times comes for a revolution, the political middle ground falls away and (to paraphrase Trotsky) a ball is left on the top of a pyrmid, it could go either way. We will try to make it fall to the left and create a sucessful revolution, and the capitalists will use fascism to stop this and pull the ball to the right. This is the role of fascism, they are the reserve army of capitalism, they will be used to divide the working class and hamper our attempts at raising class consciousness, and when/if the time comes they will be the iron-hand the capitalists class use to try and smash the workers movements.

This has been proven by history.

With this in mind does it not make sense to fight fascism now, to
A) remove an obstacle to revolution (kill the seeds before the weed stangles us)
and
B) to defend the working classes today.

[Pogue]

on the contrary, it seems you would rather live in russia to rerun your dumb little nostalgic ceremony of yours

Yes, because I'd love to live in a city where there are dozens of racially motivated attacks by neo-nazi groups and antifascists are regularly attacked and even killed. :rolleyes:

You clearly haven't thought about this too much before you posted, have you?

[Holden Caulfield]

on the contrary, it seems you would rather live in russia to rerun your dumb little nostalgic ceremony of yours

post something meaningful or not at all.
this thread will not turn into a flamefest!

[Pogue]

Really, I thought it was mostly about young men running about playing macho games.

Devrim

How would you as a left communist suggest we fight fascism then? How would you approach deviate from the approach of anarchists and sorrted militants in Antifa?

Please remember that Antifa is trying to build a mass working class movement. Most members are anarchists, and the anti-fascist group AFA from the 80s was backed by Anarcho Syndicalists of DAM, which is now SolFed.

[Devrim]

Some would say the same about communism. ;)

Yes, they would. I think that Lenin also said in 1917 that he didn't think he would see a workers' revolution in his lifetime. I think that the point about facism though is that it came to power historically after the defeat of the working class. This is not a situation that we are in today.


I disagree, if you let things take its course they tend to grow. Its easy to be a nazi and go around beating up 'paki's', have rally's and Adolf Hitler memorial concerts and spread your hate around then when you have to consider you will get fierce resistance. Leaflets never stopped them on the streets, militant activism did.

I disagree with your analysis of why things grow. It is completely related to the situation. Why did left groups shrink in the 90s and why are they growing again today. It is directly connected to the situation of the working class and the economy. It is not something that happens in abstract.

Will 'fascist' parties grow in the upcoming period, I believe the answer is yes. I also think that they will become less 'fascist'. I think that 'militant anti-fascism won't be able to stop that trend though maybe it can change its pace.

My point is that the fascist parties are not particularly worse than the other bourgeois parties. The Labour government, for example, expels more immigrants that the fascists could even fantasise about.

Devrim

[Devrim]

How would you as a left communist suggest we fight fascism then? How would you approach deviate from the approach of anarchists and sorrted militants in Antifa?

I don't think that there is any particular point in 'fighting fascism'. I don't think that it is particularly dangerous, and is certainly not as capable of implementing racist and reactionary polices as the Labour Party, for example.

I think the whole thing of fighting fascism is just fetishism.


Please remember that Antifa is trying to build a mass working class movement. Most members are anarchists, and the anti-fascist group AFA from the 80s was backed by Anarcho Syndicalists of DAM, which is now SolFed.

I know. I was a member of DAM in the 80s.

Devrim

[Devrim]

At the moment no; fascists will not take a hold of the state, however the growth of the right comes to the detriment of the left and the working class as a whole. When the times comes for a revolution, the political middle ground falls away and (to paraphrase Trotsky) a ball is left on the top of a pyrmid, it could go either way. We will try to make it fall to the left and create a sucessful revolution, and the capitalists will use fascism to stop this and pull the ball to the right. This is the role of fascism, they are the reserve army of capitalism, they will be used to divide the working class and hamper our attempts at raising class consciousness, and when/if the time comes they will be the iron-hand the capitalists class use to try and smash the workers movements.

This has been proven by history.

I don't think that it has been proven by history. Fascists historically came to power after the revolution had been crushed by social democracy and the main bourgeois parties.

Devrim

[Holden Caulfield]

I don't think that it has been proven by history. Fascists historically came to power after the revolution had been crushed by social democracy and the main bourgeois parties.

Devrim

Social Democrats MPs have different class interests from the workers and therefore they will aim to protect the system. But:

The use of the Freikorps and the bourgeois support for the Nazis, be it support from the likes of Ebert or Hindenburg/Ludendorf, the fact remains the political hierarchy used fascists and fascism to protect the capitalist system.
The use of Mussolini and his blackshirts, by the industrialists and the political elite; again, fascists were used as the para-military wing of capitalism.
etc
etc

The very fact fascism exists divides the working class, and hampers class consciousness, removing this obstacle is an integral part of the class struggle.

[Devrim]

The use of the Freikorps and the bourgeois support for the Nazis, be it support from the likes of Ebert or Hindenburg/Ludendorf, the fact remains the political hierarchy used fascists and fascism to protect the capitalist system.

The Freikorps weren't fascist. The german revolution was over by 192o. The NSDAP came to power in 1933.

[quote=Holden Caulfield]The use of Mussolini and his blackshirts, by the industrialists and the political elite; again, fascists were used as the para-military wing of capitalism.

The two red years in Italy were 1919-20. The fascists came to power in 1922.

The fascists were used by the bourgeoisie, yes, but not to defeat the revolution. That had already been done.

Devrim

[benhur]

I think the whole thing of fighting fascism is just fetishism.


While I agree that the fight against fascism must be part of a larger fight against capitalism, I disagree that it's mere fetishism. It's quite unfair to say that. Fascism is a danger, not necessarily politically, but socially. We need antifa to counter this social nuisance. On some level, fascism does exist independently of capitalism, so we cannot relate everything to the latter.

[Melbourne Lefty]

I think the whole thing of fighting fascism is just fetishism.


Sometimes it is, but its useful and constructive work as well.

[Batman]

I think the whole thing of fighting fascism is just fetishism.

It's hardly a fetish when you're getting stabbed up.

[Armand Iskra]

hammer him in the head and sickle him in the neck! the unity of the proletariat must destroy the dreaded BNP! I hope these people who are carrying hammers must also carry scythes and pitchforks too.

[lurcherman]

good to see that the BNP got a taste of what there have dished out in the past