Broadcast power?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I found an interesting article (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/132/brilliant.html) today, which could herald the beginning of the end for tangles of wires and revolutionise power distribution.

If this takes off, the potential effects on technological society could be enormous. For instance, fossil-fueled cars could be replaced with electric vehicle powered by electrical broadcasters placed at regular intervals on the roadside. This effectively combines the efficiency advantages of an electrical railway with the convenience of private vehicles. Power broadcasting could also help bring back electricity rapidly to disaster-stricken areas - two trucks, one with a generator and the other with a power broadcaster, set them up and everything electrical within range is good to go.

What are your thoughts?

[Picky Bugger]

I guess it's still a while off before this is implemented but the removal of all the horrible wires would be great, I've recently had quite a few problems with the third floor of my house having no plugs so obviously this would solve that problem.

What would stop someone else using your power supply, for instance your next door neighbour? (I may have missed this explanation in the text) In current society this may be a hindrance to the implementation, hmmm
Also what would the power loss be, without knowing too much of the background science it seems to me that it would not be totally efficient especially as the technology relies upon induction. As the current energy bills point toward changes in efficiency I think that it is possible that more research may need to go into this. Whilst the technology is fascinating I think there will be quite a few implementation problems including interference and as I said efficiency loss.

This is very interesting and I agree the effects and uses are massive but I favour Teslas approach to this - "When Tesla first switched on his 200-foot-tall, 1,000,000-volt Colorado Springs tower, 130-foot-long bolts of electricity shot out of it, sparks leaped up at the toes of passersby, and the grass around the lab glowed blue." Must have been an eventful day there :D

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What would stop someone else using your power supply, for instance your next door neighbour?

The inductive coupling pad thingy has a range measured in inches, so there's no danger of neighbours leeching your power supply. Radio-frequency harvesting works for distances up to 85 feet, and is limited to line-of-sight. I imagine magnetically-coupled resonance broadcast power would be a communal thing, since it can easily pass through walls.


Also what would the power loss be, without knowing too much of the background science it seems to me that it would not be totally efficient especially as the technology relies upon induction.The only information I could find was THIS (http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/132/big-green-and-juicy.html), which looks pretty promising.


As the current energy bills point toward changes in efficiency I think that it is possible that more research may need to go into this. Whilst the technology is fascinating I think there will be quite a few implementation problems including interference and as I said efficiency loss. With the magnetically-coupled resonance method at least, any unused power collapses back into the transmitter coil, or so I'm given to understand.


This is very interesting and I agree the effects and uses are massive but I favour Teslas approach to this - "When Tesla first switched on his 200-foot-tall, 1,000,000-volt Colorado Springs tower, 130-foot-long bolts of electricity shot out of it, sparks leaped up at the toes of passersby, and the grass around the lab glowed blue." Must have been an eventful day there :DTesla was crazy-smart, literally. It's such a shame that his genius was instinctive rather than intellectual.

[Killfacer]

Could we have giant orbital solar farms which beamed electricy back to earth?

[Lynx]

How would electric car propulsion figure into this? The infrastructure requirements would be huge, as with any third-rail, overhead line, or induction system.
It would be nice to recharge electric vehicles 'on the fly', a convenient option for vehicles that are almost always on the move.

[Picky Bugger]

The efficiency does seem promising "inductive charging systems work with about 80% to 90% efficiency -- roughly the same as plugging directly into a wall socket. That blows away the industry average for wired chargers, around 40%. So wireless juice is not only less messy, it's less hungry."

Have any large scale tests happened? it said in the original article that it is used by some defence organisations so it must work on a larger scale than simply powering a TV five feet away.

If you ask me it looks too promising but there must be some sort of catch... maybe it's just me being pessimistic.

[Picky Bugger]

How would electric car propulsion figure into this? The infrastructure requirements would be huge, as with any third-rail, overhead line, or induction system.
It would be nice to recharge electric vehicles 'on the fly', a convenient option for vehicles that are almost always on the move.

That's the thing with electric cars in this sense, there may need to be a constant supply of energy to the car to recharge it, so individual broadcasters would not work. It seems difficult to install a system to power individual transport, as you say the infrastructure would be huge. Although I am guessing that transport would only become affected when the technology is already heavily implemented in stationary structures.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Could we have giant orbital solar farms which beamed electricy back to earth?

That's different to what's being discussed here. There's nothing really stopping us from building orbital solar farms now, we just need the infrastructure in place and the political will to do so.

More information here (http://orbitalvector.com/Space%20Structures/Solar%20Power%20Satellites/SOLAR%20POWER%20SATELLITES.htm).


How would electric car propulsion figure into this? The infrastructure requirements would be huge, as with any third-rail, overhead line, or induction system.
It would be nice to recharge electric vehicles 'on the fly', a convenient option for vehicles that are almost always on the move.

The trick is to start small and build things up over time, rather than trying to do everything at once and overstretch.

For instance, it would be relatively trivial to outfit electric cars with an inductive coupling coil attached to the underside, and have a recharge pad installed in one's garage, in parking spaces, and maybe even at traffic lights and similar locations so cars can charge up while they're waiting for the lights to change.

Once the initial infrastructure is in place, it will be far easier to modify and upgrade it as technology changes and improves.

[Killfacer]

So they beam down the power in microwaves?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So they beam down the power in microwaves?

Correct. The article has this to say about exposure to the beam:


The peak intensity of the microwave beam would be 23 milliwatts per square centimeter; the maximum allowable leakage from a consumer microwave oven is 5 milliwatts per square centimeter. While this would not be healthy in terms of long term exposure, it would certainly be possible to walk through the entire multi-kilometer width of the naked beam without experiencing any ill effects. Since the receiving area is expected to be covered over with large, raised rectennas, anyone on the ground underneath them would receive only negligible microwave exposure. Still, rectenna farms would likely be located in remote areas such as deserts in order to allay concerns from residents about possible ill effects of the microwave exposure.While this is should be reassuring to any remotely rational person, there is the unfortunate fact that a lot of people are shockingly ignorant about technology, hence the hullaballoo about microwave radiation from mobile phones of all fucking things, not to mention general fuckwit NIMBYism.

I predict that if solar power satellites or broadcast power becomes widespread, there will be similar unfounded fears about the potential effects of extended electromagnetic fields. Never mind the fact that all electrical appliances generate them.

[Picky Bugger]

In effect yes " It would have used a transmitting antenna roughly about a kilometer across (the larger the better, to prevent beam-spreading,) which would beam the power to Earth at a frequency of 2.45 GHz, the same frequency used by microwave ovens, but also has the advantage of allowing the beam to pass unimpeded through clouds and rain. The rectenna farm would cover an oval area roughly 13 kilometers long and 10 kilometers wide."

[Killfacer]

This needs to be done. God it's sickening to think how much money is wasted on new ways to kill people when science could be advanced and our lives made so much better. :mad:

I don't usually get angry about that kind of thing, but it really is frustrating. Argh!

[Picky Bugger]

Indeed... Go play Metal Gear Solid that'll cheer you up, no vast quantities of money spent to create war machines there :p

As it says Japan is investing heavily in this "the perpetually power-starved Japan, has committed itself to constructing a working solar power satellite by 2040."

[Killfacer]

While this is should be reassuring to any remotely rational person, there is the unfortunate fact that a lot of people are shockingly ignorant about technology, hence the hullaballoo about microwave radiation from mobile phones of all fucking things, not to mention general fuckwit NIMBYism.

I predict that if solar power satellites or broadcast power becomes widespread, there will be similar unfounded fears about the potential effects of extended electromagnetic fields.

Why are most people technophobe fuckwitts?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Why are most people technophobe fuckwitts?

Because Science is Bad (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ScienceIsBad).

[Killfacer]

I enjoyed "i am legend" but at the time i did feel uneasy at the blatant anti science message it sent out.

However, i am derealing the thread somewhat, so i will leave it there.

[Picky Bugger]

I think equally as interesting as the broadcast power technology is this VIVACE using water, of course its not energy distribution but a new energy source.

I quote the spring 2009 h+ magazine - "“VIVACe” (Vortex Induced Vibrations fo rAquatic Clean energy), turns potentially destructive vibrations caused by vortices in water — as well as the fl ow of water itself — into usable electricity"

http://hplusmagazine.com/digitaledition/2009-spring/ - link for the digital version page 14

also

http://www.vortexhydroenergy.com/html/technology.html - link to the technology page itself.

"VIVACe system should be able to generate power at about 5.5 cents per
kilowatt-hour, a price comparable to wind and coal."

This could have important implications on energy production in developing countries and apparently isn't harmful to wildlife.

[piet11111]

instinctive genius is to me more valuable then scientific because as we all know scientists tend to cling on junk ideas much too long so if someone like tesla had to rely on books from his peers he would not have achieved nearly as much as he did on his own.

[rosie]

The efficiency does seem promising "inductive charging systems work with about 80% to 90% efficiency -- roughly the same as plugging directly into a wall socket. That blows away the industry average for wired chargers, around 40%. So wireless juice is not only less messy, it's less hungry."
If that is the case, big telecommunication companies will not allow this wonderful technological progression to hit main street. When industries are making money, they do everything in their power to stop anything from changing. As with Microsoft and open source software, these companies are not going to go willingly. Socialization of power is something the big 1% ruling class is not really interested in. Unfortunately. Until they can figure out a way to make mad profits from this, it won't be a thing for anyone to use.

[Picky Bugger]

This technology does not take power away from the big industries, it is just a new method for distributing energy just like the change from gas power street lamps to electric, broadcast power is just another step in the natural progression of energy use.

The comparison with Microsoft and Open source is not well founded as open source effectively threatens the control Microsoft has over the market and therefore its potential profits. It is not as if the broadcast technology installs a perpetual motion machine in everyone's homes giving you power for free it is not the same as open source which effectively does this.

I think this is certainly something that will be seen in the future as long as the technology works on a grand scale and currently I can see no reason why it wouldn't.

[Yazman]

My emphases placed:

The inductive coupling pad thingy has a range measured in inches, so there's no danger of neighbours leeching your power supply. Radio-frequency harvesting works for distances up to 85 feet, and is limited to line-of-sight. I imagine magnetically-coupled resonance broadcast power would be a communal thing, since it can easily pass through walls.

I thought American scientists used SI measurements rather than old imperial ones? Wouldn't it be measured in millimetres in the former highlight and metres in the latter?

[Picky Bugger]

Aren't you being overly pedantic...

[Lynx]

Didn't NASA lose a mars space probe over that kind of mix up?

Can't fathom America's resistance to metric...

[Picky Bugger]

I think the apt response to this came from Grandpa Simpson "The metric system is the tool of the devil! My car gets forty rods to the hogshead and that's the way I likes it."

The metric system is easily better than the old imperial stuff, it's just so simple and systematic. Just Lovely.

[Yazman]

Aren't you being overly pedantic...

I'm not being pedantic, why label me that way when all I did was ask a question? I am genuinely curious as to why its not in SI measurements, because if its not then that most likely means the media are catering to a target audience as opposed to reporting accurately.

[Picky Bugger]

First off I did not mean to cause offense, secondly if the units were changed from SI to Imperial to reach a larger audience of Americans this does not reduce the accuracy of the article nor affect it to any great degree. It is not like the measurements were of something tiny that had to be measured in microns, it has been put this way so the majority of the readers can spatially understand it in a way that is most accessible.

Preferably it would be better if SI was used and most likely in any academic article/journal it would be, you have to remember that this is an article on a website aimed at large audiences but there is no deception here.

[Yazman]

First off I did not mean to cause offense, secondly if the units were changed from SI to Imperial to reach a larger audience of Americans this does not reduce the accuracy of the article nor affect it to any great degree. It is not like the measurements were of something tiny that had to be measured in microns, it has been put this way so the majority of the readers can spatially understand it in a way that is most accessible.

Preferably it would be better if SI was used and most likely in any academic article/journal it would be, you have to remember that this is an article on a website aimed at large audiences but there is no deception here.

Actually, I do get what you're saying, and I do disagree with it, but I don't really want to continue this point too much more for fear of derailing the thread (sorry). Suffice it to say that I think americans are not necessarily a majority on the internet and converting the units to imperials means many of us can't spatially understand it without converting the units ourselves.. why not just leave the original measurements? That way its accurate reporting.

Also I have to note that from what I know of this method it can't currently be utilised for long distances, in its current form it could only really be utilised in the home (from what I've read).

[Picky Bugger]

Okay lets end this but I would say that it is an American magazine/website so it isn't at all surprising that they favour the units of measurement that the majority of US citizens understand. Secondly I can't remember reading anywhere that the original units of measurement were SI maybe I am mistaken but maybe Imperial measurements were used all along.

If the technology can currently only be supplied on the small then it seems that the technology will be used to power office/government buildings primarily then it will spread from there. As said before the technology and infrastructure will need to be developed before transport etc can benefit form it.

[Yazman]

Okay lets end this but I would say that it is an American magazine/website so it isn't at all surprising that they favour the units of measurement that the majority of US citizens understand. Secondly I can't remember reading anywhere that the original units of measurement were SI maybe I am mistaken but maybe Imperial measurements were used all along.

Therein lies my concern; I am curious to find out whether the original measurements were in SI or not, because the scientific establishment in the US generally uses SI measurements. I have yet to see a case where they haven't - if they have in this case, then it means the author altered/converted the measurements, which I don't really like (because its not really accurate).


If the technology can currently only be supplied on the small then it seems that the technology will be used to power office/government buildings primarily then it will spread from there. As said before the technology and infrastructure will need to be developed before transport etc can benefit form it.

Yes, I agree with this. It may improve over time, and implementing it on any scale we can - as long as we know its safe - is definitely something I support. Wireless power is a long overdue technology, imo.

[Picky Bugger]

I am inclined to agree but would be more so if the discussion was about something more important, say for instance to do with the internal mechanisms or the efficiency of the technology. I find it hard to be annoyed by a generalisation of the range when the article was only a introduction to broadcast technology.

I do not like media interference with articles especially ones scientific in nature, as you say there may be a hidden agenda lying underneath and this is not helpful. I just fail to see the importance of a change in units if it is helping the majority reader.