Are you a Manarchist?

[Black Dagger]

No, can you please re-post this (with your next account perhaps) later when you've got the format fixed yourself? It's a worthwhile thread but that is like 5000 words with no paragraphs to be seen.

[Module]

No, can you please re-post this (with your next account perhaps) later when you've got the format fixed yourself?Don't encourage her :p
She's trolling. See the 'lmao' at the end of the thread.

[Plagueround]

I sat for hours and fixed it. (Just kidding, I are work for search engine, my search skills are legendary).


For those just coming to the thread, I didn't originally post it, I'm just reposting a coherent version.

ARE YOU A MANARCHIST QUESTIONNAIRE

General Questions:

I. Do you ascribe to either:
A) Passive-Aggressive Patriarchy:" (often come across as a
victim/helpless/in
need/dependent and get women in your life to be your physical and
emotional
caretakers?

to buy you things? to take care of your responsibilities?
pick up your slack? use guilt or manipulation to get out of your
responsibilities
and equal share of the work? do you treat your female partner like a
"mom" or your secretary?)

B) "Aggressive Patriarchy:" (Do you often take charge? Assume that a
woman can’t do something right so you do it for her? Believe that only
you can take care of things? Think that you always have the right
answer?
Treat your female partner like she’s helpless, fragile, a baby or weak?
Do you put down your partner or minimize her feelings? Do you belittle
her opinions?)

2. How do you react when women in your life name something or someone
as patriarchal or sexist? Do you think of her or call her a "PC Thug,"
"Feminazj," "Thin-skinned," "Overly-Sensitive," a "COINTELPRO-esque"
or "Un-fun?"

3. Do you see talking about patriarchy as non-heroic, a waste of time,
trouble making, or divisive?

4. If a woman asks your opinion, do you assume she must not know
anything
about the subject?

5. Do you believe that women have "natural characteristics" which are
Inherent in our sex such as "passive," "sweet," "caring," "nurturing,"
"considerate," "generous," "weak," or "emotional?"

6. Do you make fun of "typical" men or "frat boys" but not ever check
yourself to see if you behave in the same ways?

7. Do you take on sexism and patriarchy as a personal struggle working
to fight against it in yourself, in your relationships, in society,
work,
culture, subcultures, and institutions?

8. Do you say anything when other men make sexist or patriarchal
comments?
Do you help your patriarchal and sexist friends to make change and help
educate them? Or do you continue friendships with patriarchal and
sexist
men and act like there is no problem.

Activism Questions

9. As a. man, is being a. feminist a priority to you? Do you see being
a feminist as revolutionary or radical?

10. Do you think that you define what is radical? Do you suffer from
or contribute to macho bravado" or ‘subpoena envy? (I.e. defining a
true
or "cool" and respectable activist as someone who has: been arrested,
done lockdowns, scaled walls, hung banners, done time for their actions
argued or fought with police, done property alterations, beat up nazi
boneheads, etc.)?

11. Do you take something a woman said, reword it and claim it as your
own idea/opinion?

12. Are you taking on the "shit" or "grunt" work in your organizing?
(I.e.: Cooking. cleaning. set up, clean up phone calls, email lists,
taking notes, doing support work, sending mailings, providing
childcare?)
Are you aware of the fact. that women often are taking on this work
with
no regard or for their efforts?

13. Do you take active step to make your activist groups safe and
comfortable
places for women?

14. If you are trying to get more women involved in your activist
projects,
do you try to engage them by telling them what’ to do or why they
should
join your group?

15. Do you ever find yourself monitoring and limiting your behavior and
speech in meetings and activist settings because you don't want’ to
take
up too much space or dominate the group? Are you aware of the fact that
women do this all the time?

16. Do you pay attention to group process and consensus building in
groups
or do you tend to dominate and take charge (maybe without even
realizing
it)?

Sexual/Romantic Relationships and Issues

17. Do you make jokes or negative comments about the sex lives of women
or sex work?

18. Can you only show affection and be loving to your partner in front
of friends and family or only in private?

19. Do you discuss the responsibility for preventing contraception and
getting STD screening prior to sexual contact?

20. Do you repeatedly ask or plead with women for what you want in
sexual
situations? Are you aware that unless this is a mutually consented upon
scenario/game that this is considered a form of coercion?

21. During sex, do you pay attention to your partner’s face and body
language to see if she is turned on? Engaged, or just lying there? Do
you ask a woman who she wants during sex? What turns her on?

22. Do you ask for consent?

23. Do you know if your partner has a sexual abuse, rape, or physical
abuse history?

24. Do you stay with your partner in a relationship for comfort and
security?
Sex? Financial or emotional caretaking? If you’re not completely happy
or "in love" with your partner anymore? Even though you don’t think it
will ultimately work out? Because you’re afraid or unable to be alone?
Do you suddenly end relationships when a "new" or "better" woman comes
along?

25. Do you jump from relationship to relationship? Overlap them? Or do
you take space and time for yourself in between each relationship to
reflect on the relationship and your role in it? Do you know how to be
alone? How to be single?

26. Do you cheat on your partners?

27. If your girlfriend gets on your case for patriarchal behavior or
wants to try to work on the issues of patriarchy in your relationship,
do you creak up with her or cheat on her and find another woman who
will
put up with your shit?

28. Do you agree to romantic commitment and responsibility and then
back
out of these situations?

29. Do you understand menstruation?

30. Do you make fun of women or write them off as "PMS-ING?"

Friendship Questions

31. Do you tend to set the standard and plans for fun or do you work
with the others in the group, including women to see what they want to
do?

32. Do you talk to your female friends about things you don't talk to
your male friends about especially emotional issues?

33. Do you constantly fall in love with your female friends Are you
friends
with women until you find out that they are not in love with you too
and then end the friendships? Are you only friends with women who are
in monogamous or committed relationships with other people?

34. Do you come on to your female friends even jokingly?

35. Do you only talk to your female friends (and not your male friends)
about your romantic relationships or problems in those relationships?


36. Do you find yourself only attracted to "Anarcho-Crusty Punk
Barbie",
Alterna-Grrrl Barbie," or Hardcore-Grrrl Barbie?" (The idea here being
that the only women you arc attracted to fit mainstream beauty
standards
but just dress and do their hair alternatively and maybe have piercings
and tattoos) Do you question and challenge your internalized ideals of
mainstream beauty ideals for women?

37. Have you ever heard of or discussed "sizeism" and do you think it
is low on the oppression scale?

38. Are you aware of the fact that ALL WOMEN, even women in radical
communities,
live under the CONSTANT PRESSURE and OPPRESSION of mainstream
patriarchal
beauty standards?

39. Are you aware of the fact that many women in radical communities
have had and are currently dealing with eating disorders?

40. Do you make fun of "model-types" or "mainstream" women for their
appearance?

Domestic/Household Questions

41. When was the last time you walked into your house, noticed that
something
was misplaced/dirty/etc. AND did something about it (didn’t just walk
by it, over it, away from it or leave a nasty note about it) even if
it wasn’t your chore or responsibility?

42. Are you constantly amazed by the magical "food fairy" who
mysteriously
acquires food, brings it home, puts it away, prepares it in meal form
and then cleans up afterwards?

43. Do you contribute equally to domestic life and work?

44. How many of the following activities do you contribute to in your
home (this is a partal list of what it takes to run a household):
A: Sweep and mop floors and clean carpets
B: Wash and put away dishes
C: Clean stove, countertops, sinks and appliances if they are messy and
each time after you have prepared food
D: Collect money, do food shopping, put away food and make meals for
people you live with
E: Do house laundry (kitchen towels, bathroom hand towels, washable
rugs,
etc.)
F: Clean up common room spaces, even if it’s not your chore
G: Pick up other’s slack
H: Deal with garbage, recycling, and compost
I: Take care of bills, rent, utilities
J: Deal with the landscaping and gardening
K: Clean bathrooms and make sure bathroom is clean after you use it
L: Feed, clean up after, and take care of housepets

Children & Childcare

45. Do you spend time with kids? If you do, do you spend time with
children
(yours or anyone's) in a way that is gendered? (do certain things with
boys and other things with girls?

46. If you are a father, do you CO-parent your children? (Spend equal
time AND energy AND effort AND money to raise them)?

47. Do you make childcare a priority? (at both activist events and in
daily life)

48. Do you help make the lives of single mothers in your life and
community
easier by finding out if and how you can assist?

49. Have you politicized your ideas about child rearing and parenthood
radical communities? Do you believe that individuals who are in the
movement
have children or that the movement has children?

Multi-Category Questions:

50. When was the last time you showed a woman how to do a task rather
than doing it for her and assuming she couldn’t do it?

51. When was the last time you asked a woman to show you how to do a
task?

52. Do you get emotional needs met by other women, whether or not you
are in a romantic relationship with them? Or do you cultivate caring,
nurturing relationships with other men in which you can discuss your
feelings and get your needs met by them?

53. If a woman discusses with you or calls you out on your patriarchy,
do you make an effort to be emotionally present? Listen? Not
emotionally
shut down? Not get defensive? Think about what she said? Admit you
fucked
up? Take responsibility/make reparations for the mistakes you made?
Discuss
your feelings and ideas with her? Apologize? Work harder on your own
shit to make sure that you don’t make the same mistakes again with her
or other women?

54. Do you look inside yourself to find out why you fucked up in these
relationships and work to both change your behavior and be a better
anti-patriarchy
ally in the future?

55. Do you organize regular house meetings or activist meetings to
resolve
conflict in the house/group?

56. Do you use intimidation, yelling, getting in someone’s physical
space,
threats or violence to get your point across? Do you create and
atmosphere
or violence around women or others to threaten them (i.e.: throw
things,
break things, yell and scream, threaten, attack, tease or terrorize the
animals or pets of women in your life)?

57. Do you physically, psychologically, or emotionally abuse women?

58. Do the women in your life (mothers, sisters, partners, housemates,
friends, etc.) have to "remind" you or "nag" you or "yell" at you in
order for you to get off your ass and take care of your
responsibilities?


59. Do you talk to other men about patriarchy and your part in it?

60. When was the last time you thought about or talked about any of
these
issues other than after reading this questionnaire?

Scoring: ALL MEN need to work on issues of patriarchy, sexism and
misogyny.
However, this questionnaire may point out to you areas of particular
focus or concentration for your own anti-patriarchal/sexist/misogynist
process and development.

[JimmyJazz]

27. If your girlfriend gets on your case for patriarchal behavior or
wants to try to work on the issues of patriarchy in your relationship,
do you creak up with her or cheat on her and find another woman who
will
put up with your shit?

lol

"yes"

[Plagueround]

I found I did quite well, admittedly much better than I would have a year or two ago. I suppose my weak point is the "friendship" category, but I think I've developed in this regard as well.
It's quite embarrassing to read some of these and realize you're still carrying some of these attitudes, but I suppose it would be betraying the entire purpose of the questionnaire (and any attempts to progress) to not admit these faults. :blushing:

[Bilan]

Ugh.

[Plagueround]

Ugh.

Admittedly I found a few of the questions to be a bit condescending and generalized, but it did contain some good info nonetheless.

[Module]

This questionnaire has been around for years. Some of the questions are stupid, but some of them are really good questions.
I've used the term 'manarchist' in the past, and plan to in the future, where it is suitable. :p
And it certainly is for some people.

[Jazzratt]

22. Do you ask for consent?

Um, shouldn't this read something like "Are you an asshole rapist?"


34. Do you come on to your female friends even jokingly?

I guess I have to work on this one, I come on to all of my friends jokingly (especially homophobic ones).

[Bilan]

Is there any point in keeping this thread here?

[Module]

What, in 'Discrimination'? Where else would it be? :confused:

[Bilan]

Oh, sorry, mis-communication. I meant up on the board generally - as opposed to in the trash can.
This has been posted before, plus it was started by a troll.
It's rather pointless.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

A lot of these questions don't even apply to me. I don't have a girlfriend, I live on my own so any housework is entirely my responsibility, and the vast majority of my relationships with females have been entirely platonic.

[Sean]

Um, shouldn't this read something like "Are you an asshole rapist?"
No, that's this list; Biting Beaver's Rapist Checklist (http://doingfeminism.com/2008/03/22/biting-beavers-rapist-checklist/). She is certainly on the crazy side of feminism, in fact I think her viewpoints are more of a mental disorder. This particular nut publicly regretted not aborting her son after she caught him looking at porn. She considers giving birth to male kids a horrendous act since she has created more rapists in the making to stalk the earth...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

45. If you don’t fight rape then you accept rape.

Isn't there a line in the Bible that goes something like this? In any case, the idea that if one doesn't "fight" rape (maybe one can't, for some reason or another) one accepts it is a form of blaming the victim.

[Sean]

Isn't there a line in the Bible that goes something like this? In any case, the idea that if one doesn't "fight" rape (maybe one can't, for some reason or another) one accepts it is a form of blaming the victim.
That sounds like rapist logic to me.:p
Joking aside, there are a good few of those points which are true, but some which are just crazy. Convincing someone to have sex with you isn't rape, its called dating. I'm unsure if both people being drunk and consenting = rape in all situations though, if so I've initially raped nearly all of my previous girlfriends at some point.

[Yazman]

45. If you don’t fight rape then you accept rape.

I fucking HATE when people adopt views like this. It is fucking ridiculous and unacceptable, hell even reactionary, to look at things in such a "black or white" view of the world.

Its like Bush's statement after the WTC fell,"You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."

"With us or against us" is reactionary.

[Jazzratt]

I fucking HATE when people adopt views like this. It is fucking ridiculous and unacceptable, hell even reactionary, to look at things in such a "black or white" view of the world.

Its like Bush's statement after the WTC fell,"You're either with us, or you're with the terrorists."

"With us or against us" is reactionary.

In fairness, rape is one of those black and white issues I don't mind coming down on one side of. I'm not really sure, though, how one "fights rape". I suppose the obvious starting point is by not raping anyone and encouraging others to follow your lead but beyond that I'm sort of stumped. There's also fighting against the established social order, but we're meant to be doing that anyway.

Personally I prefer to view everyone as either against me or with me (i.e with me unless they explicitly say otherwise). Think positive :thumbup1:

Taig


I'm unsure if both people being drunk and consenting = rape in all situations

Not really, no. Although some particularly prickish people like to intentionally make sure the other person is far more drunk than them in order to take advantage. But this falls into the same category as fucking someone who is asleep (and not previously given their consent to being fucked in their sleep, as I understand is a [fairly uncommon] kink) -- i.e completely unnaceptable.

While biting beaver's list does occaisonally make forays out of sanity it does raise a lot of very important points; some things that men (especially, not exclusively) would do well to recognise. Specifically:


28. If you’re her husband you can still be a rapist.
32. Women do not owe you sex.
33. Buying her dinner does not entitle you to sex.
34. Paying her mortgage does not entitle you to sex.
35. Buying her clothing does not entitle you to sex. (in fact the whol "x does not entitle you to sex" section)

40. If she has ****ed every man in a 10 square mile radius and she doesn’t want to **** you and you have sex with her anyway, then you’re a rapist.
41. Her clothing is not a reason for you to rape her. Her LACK of clothing is no reason to rape her. If she’s wearing a thong and pasties you STILL have no right to rape her.


In fact, aside from her problem with consensual drunken sex, I'm not entirely sure this list is all that terrible. Although as you pointed out earlier convincing someone else that you're worth fucking regularly is what dating and relationships are all about.

[Coggeh]

is anyone going to answer ... lol :p

[NecroCommie]

32. Do you talk to your female friends about things you don't talk to
your male friends about especially emotional issue

This was one of several questions that I dont know which is the "right" answer to... :blushing: My answer was "no"


53. If a woman discusses with you or calls you out on your patriarchy,
do you make an effort to be emotionally present?

40. Do you make fun of... ..."mainstream" women for their
appearance?

Domestic/Household Questions

As to number 53: No, but then again I am actively trying to avoid "emotional presence" with men and women alike, regardless the topic.

With number 40: Yes, but that also applies to males so it can be hardly called a sexist thing. I dislike mainstream beauty standards in general.

And the household part does not involve me at all, since I have no intention of living with anyone.

This quiz helped me very little at all because I often had to answer either: "I don't know!" or the answer was somekind of art performance as demonstrated above. Or then Im just in subconcious denial, who knows. :confused:

[Reuben]

'Passive-Aggressive Patriarchy:" (often come across as a
victim/helpless/in
need/dependent and get women in your life to be your physical and
emotional
caretakers?'

Sorry but this is ridiculous. There are a great many ways in which relationships can be unequal or assymetical, and this particular form of assymetry really can apply in both directions. Assuming that any interpersonal inequality that happens to favour the man necessarily is a manifestation of the social structure (ie patriarchy) is ridiculous.

[brigadista]

it is not ridiculous if you take into account that women do not have equality or are viewed equally, under the present capitalist structures

[Reuben]

What makes you think I wasn't taking that into account. I was simply rejecting the notion that the complex dynamics of male-female relations should *always and necessarily* be seen as a manifestation of theose structures simply because they happen to work in the same direct as a the wider societal inequality.

[brigadista]

What makes you think I wasn't taking that into account. I was simply rejecting the notion that the complex dynamics of male-female relations should *always and necessarily* be seen as a manifestation of theose structures simply because they happen to work in the same direct as a the wider societal inequality.


they are only complex because of structural discrimination

[Reuben]

they are only complex because of structural discrimination

This is where I think we disagree. I do not believe that even after a most succesful socialist and feminist revolution such relationships would become unpromblemat or lose their complexity, and by implication I do not believe that all such compexities can simply be attributed to 'structural discrimination'. All relationships such as these are characterised by conflicting desires and by power imbalanes that arise to some extent autonomously of the over arching power structures

[brigadista]

This is where I think we disagree. I do not believe that even after a most succesful socialist and feminist revolution such relationships would become unpromblemat or lose their complexity, and by implication I do not believe that all such compexities can simply be attributed to 'structural discrimination'. All relationships such as these are characterised by conflicting desires and by power imbalanes that arise to some extent autonomously of the over arching power structures


we will have to disagree. of course things would not change immediately but they could change in the long term . changes would depend on equality and divsion of labour not only in the workplace but also in the home, No one wants to oppress someone they see as their equal - the whole gender division has to go and the role allocation under that gender division.

[Blackscare]

blah :glare:

You're either an asshole, or you aren't. I don't need to take a long ass, totally condescending test to prove it. Every question is worded like an accusation.

I just always get the feeling when I read these things that any average guy that doesn't go to feminism rallies or spell women with a y is somehow evil, which is absurd. This test pidgeonholes people into a very narrow definition of what a "good" man should be, every question has an answer that is very clearly the RIGHT answer, making any other answer bad, and you a bad person for trying to answer in shades of gray.



It also portrays men as the source of every relationship problem, or so it seems at least. Take this bit, for example:


Passive-Aggressive Patriarchy:" (often come across as a
victim/helpless/in
need/dependent and get women in your life to be your physical and
emotional
caretakers?Because only men emotionally manipulate in relationships, and there is no such thing as a male caretaker and a female passive-aggressive manipulator.
Well, I guess a male caretaker type personality is actually just a chauvinist pig who doesn't think his female partner can take care of herself. :rolleyes: Women can do this kind of thing to men, and vice versa. So it makes no sense to chalk this up (or the majority of the other "questions", for that matter) to patriarchy.

This test seems to attribute every problem to men, which is in itself sexist. When a women is pampered and cared for by a man, it is because the man thinks she is weak. But when a women does the same for a man, then it's manipulation? It's manipulation in both cases, women are not above contributing to poor relationship dynamics. Talk about painting women as helpless victims!

Individual relationships are not black and white like institutional sexism, and to attribute everything to patriarchy completely ignores individual personality traits (and flaws) and people's humanity. I know tons of guys that are either dating now, or have dated, women who were completely awful people and treated their boyfriends like shit. Bossed them around, cheated, manipulated, etc. And I know plenty of guys that have done that to their girlfriends, and they are just as bad.

People need to have better interpersonal relationships, but I don't know how that could be tackled, because to my mind it's much more of a two way street these days, as far as being a shitty partner.

[Blackscare]

bleh I just read farther down, this is just a blatant list of complaints. Why it's in a test form, I don't know.


42. Are you constantly amazed by the magical "food fairy" who
mysteriously
acquires food, brings it home, puts it away, prepares it in meal form
and then cleans up afterwards?

seriously

[brigadista]

if your comments were to me I was talking about women not men..why so defensive this is an exchange of views

[Blackscare]

if your comments were to me I was talking about women not men..why so defensive this is an exchange of views

Not to you, at the test. And I'm not defensive, I just angry at this sort of stuff.

[brigadista]

i agree some of that test comes from the outer limits of I dont know what but the topic is worth discussion

[Blackscare]

Sure, it is worth discussion, I probably shouldn't have come out in attack mode. I just feel men are blamed for an unfair share of interpersonal problems. The attitude that goes with that mindset is that women are basically helpless victims in all relationships, which seems to me to be pretty sexist towards men AND women, for different reasons.

[Module]

42. Are you constantly amazed by the magical "food fairy" who
mysteriously
acquires food, brings it home, puts it away, prepares it in meal form
and then cleans up afterwards? Blackscare, I don't know why you have a problem with this question. It's clearly referring to wives/girlfriends/women generally having to bear the burden of domestic tasks with no thanks for their efforts because it is simply expected of them. That's definately something worth discussing.

It's interesting how a couple of people here have considered the questionnaire to be an attack on them/their gender. It isn't, and you must understand that there are men like this, and none of these questions just come from nowhere for no reason.
If some of them don't apply to you, fine. Cool. You shouldn't be expecting them to, for god's sake!
But you should also not be writing these questions off as referring to specific behaviour of individual "assholes", as behaviour referenced to in this questionnaire is behaviour influenced by attitudes towards women, and gender roles and expectations.
Yes, some of the questions are a little 'off', but that's no reason to disregard it completely.
And Blackscare, yes, it essentially is a list of complaints. So what? Not those damn feminazis whining again, right? :rolleyes:

[Blackscare]

My problem about the question above isn't that it implies something that is false, it's true that many times women take care of food in a household and are taken for granted. My problem is that it is written in a purely combative way, there is not even an attempt at actually asking a question that doesn't lead to the same answer every time.

Rather than encouraging thought and reflection on a subject that requires thought and reflection, this test reads like a series of statements about how bad men are/can be, written in question form in such a way that if you raise any objection to what is being said you look like you're a defensive pig. It smacks of hostility. I think that question could easily be posed in a more productive way, something like "Do you participate in household cooking? Do you show your appreciation when/if your partner cooks for you?". Something along those lines (that's just a rough idea of how I would phrase it) would be a better way of getting through to guys, which I assume is what this test is all about.


I don't like being lead through a linear path of questions that seem designed to shame me into giving a specific answer. Not that I could honestly answer that I contradict any of "correct" answers, so far as I've read, but I still think the format is entirely unfair and unproductive.



It's sort of like framing a question about abortion like this

"Do you support the killing of innocent babies just because their mothers were promiscuous and don't want to raise them, or do you have morals that say murder is wrong?"
If you have another view, you're stuck with either answering the way you're wanted to or being a murder loving, baby hating, Satan worshiper. You also have no way of challenging false assertions being made. And it clearly isn't a real question anyway, it (and the questions in this test) is clearly a jab at certain people, basically a statement with a question mark. Clearly it's not looking for a real thoughtful response, it's just a way to ram a point of view down people's throats better than good old debate because it allows one to set up an elaborate scenario that may or may not represent reality, and then push forward an idea whose only context is what you described in the "question". It's no way to frame a question and it's certainly no way to spark healthy debate.



"Who would win in a fight, a jedi or a samuri, given that the jedi has no lightsaber or force powers and must use a sword?"Here's another, you're asked a question but given a bunch of arbitrary stipulations that have to be taken into account BECAUSE it's a scenario created by the writer, and all you have to work with are the givens created by the author. If it were an open debate and someone said jedi's would get their asses handed to them by a samuri following those same rules, I could just dismiss it because it is irrelevant to the discussion, because a jedi isn't a jedi without it's defining features.

They don't seem to be worded fairly at all, and I stick by my main point that many of these questions attribute faults to men that exist in both sexes. Many of these statements just describe a generic interpersonal problem and then frame it in such a way as to imply that the cause must always be patriarchy, which is wrong. Even questions not based on a false or questionable premise are still presented in a bullying way.



Sorry about the long post :D

[Klepto]

I'm depressed. According to this questionnaire/rant my ex-girlfriend is more of a man than me :(

[Lynx]

From politics to dynamics:
http://aroundherfinger.com/

[Black Dagger]

From politics to dynamics:
http://aroundherfinger.com/

Could you please explain the meaning and purpose of your post? Like what 'from politics to dynamics' is meant to refer to?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I went to a party two weeks ago, got annihilated on vodka and walked (well, more like stumbled) a drunk girl back to my room with me.

I find it interesting that I'd be condemned for that by both ultraconservatives and whoever wrote up this survey, albeit for different reasons.

In general I find this "survey" a bit condescending and heavy with "loaded questions", as Black Scare mentioned...in that sense it's not terribly helpful for promoting meaningful discussion.

[Lynx]

Could you please explain the meaning and purpose of your post? Like what 'from politics to dynamics' is meant to refer to?
People in consensual relationships are not looking to make a political statement.
Nor are they practicing politics unless they feel their relationship must conform to some societal norm. Once the political bs is removed, what is left is the dynamic. In this case, a non-traditional one.

Meanwhile, if you're looking for a group of men to pass this questionnaire with flying colors, aroundherfinger might be one place to find them.

[Eos]

Um, shouldn't this read something like "Are you an asshole rapist? Uh sorry, but no. Someone who doesn't ask for consent isn't a rapist - they're actually a perfectly normal functioning human being. I have never been asked for consent, nor have I requested consent; seriously, what sort of person asks (before sex) 'Do I have your consent?!' Consent can be implied, and with sex it most often is. Trying to turn it into some express verbal contract is the hallmark of conservative puritanism.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Uh sorry, but no. Someone who doesn't ask for consent isn't a rapist - they're actually a perfectly normal functioning human being. I have never been asked for consent, nor have I requested consent; seriously, what sort of person asks (before sex) 'Do I have your consent?!' Consent can be implied, and with sex it most often is. Trying to turn it into some express verbal contract is the hallmark of conservative puritanism.

That's true...I don't think I've ever asked, "Whoa, hold on! May I have sex with you, please?" (If that's what consent means in this context, which I assume it does.)

[Eos]

By and large, this survey is extremely condescending sexist crap towards woman. It does have some salient points, and I do think anarchists (and other leftists) do have some chauvinistic tendencies, particularly the anti-fascists where, by and large, its just an excuse to show off how tough and 'hard' they are and getting in a brawl, instead of any important political goal (which anti-fascism completely lacks). I think the bigger problem with leftists imo, is this sort of condescending protective view which portrays woman as helpless victims, rather than express sexism.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Some of the questions work off the assumption that I'm hetero therefore I disregard the whole thing.

[black magick hustla]

i didnt answer this but it prolly says i am an emotionally passive agressive manarchist. you might just say an emotionally passive agressive manarchist person is a shy male. i cant help it. i dont feel comfortable of talking about certain things with girls especially when i feel sexually attracted to a lot of people. i would imagine its the same with women except the most secure ones. theres also the issue of women needing males as "emotional caretakers" etc. Its simply a type of personality. for example, in relationships, i would imagine i am not very reciprocal with emotions because i tend to keep them to myself. should i feel guilty because i am not as secure as you radical folks?

[Jazzratt]

Oh for fuck's sake. Marse-er-Eos' post was obviously a fucking strawman. Obtaining consent doesn't have to literally mean writing a formal letter of request or saying "May I have sex with you". Humanity has developed a number of (rather enjoyable) non-verbal ways of ascertaining the consent of a partner.

Fucking idiots.

[Killfacer]

Oh for fuck's sake. Marse-er-Eos' post was obviously a fucking strawman. Obtaining consent doesn't have to literally mean writing a formal letter of request or saying "May I have sex with you". Humanity has developed a number of (rather enjoyable) non-verbal ways of ascertaining the consent of a partner.

Fucking idiots.

True.

Although the questions do just seem to be something of a rant about evil men.

[Wanted Man]

i didnt answer this but it prolly says i am an emotionally passive agressive manarchist.
It says the same thing, regardless of answers:


Scoring: ALL MEN need to work on issues of patriarchy, sexism and
misogyny.
However, this questionnaire may point out to you areas of particular
focus or concentration for your own anti-patriarchal/sexist/misogynist
process and development.Sorry, but I don't necessarily "need" to work on anything. As if patriarchy and sexism is just a matter of individual moral choices... But you're not allowed to dispute that, because then you must be a manarchist who is too afraid of "whining feminazis" (whose words are those? Talk about straw men). :rolleyes:

I'm also not sure if our esteemed sock puppet was really just attacking a straw man. But I guess that depends on how you interpret "Do you ask for consent?" Maybe some people would argue that anyone who does not verbally and explicitly asks for consent is a rapist... This question can easily be interpreted as an example of this argument. What other point does it serve? If the other person says "no" and you continue, then you are a rapist. But that's not what the question seems to suggest.

I really find it hard to take the questionnaire as a whole seriously. I mean:


36. Do you find yourself only attracted to "Anarcho-Crusty Punk
Barbie",
Alterna-Grrrl Barbie," or Hardcore-Grrrl Barbie?" (The idea here being
that the only women you arc attracted to fit mainstream beauty
standards
but just dress and do their hair alternatively and maybe have piercings
and tattoos) Do you question and challenge your internalized ideals of
mainstream beauty ideals for women?Yes, I love Anarcho-Crusty Punk Alterna-Grrrl Barbies, I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. :rolleyes: I'm an evil manarchist. In fact, almost as evil as those damn traitorous women who dress a little alternatively, but still fit mainstream beauty standards. :rolleyes: Come on.

[bcbm]

Sorry, but I don't necessarily "need" to work on anything.

Well I've never known anyone who had all their shit together.


In fact, almost as evil as those damn traitorous women who dress a little alternatively, but still fit mainstream beauty standards.

The quiz wasn't calling them out on anything, I'm not sure where you got that from?

[Elect Marx]

People in consensual relationships are not looking to make a political statement.
Nor are they practicing politics unless they feel their relationship must conform to some societal norm. Once the political bs is removed, what is left is the dynamic. In this case, a non-traditional one.

Meanwhile, if you're looking for a group of men to pass this questionnaire with flying colors, aroundherfinger might be one place to find them.

That's a good point. I often find such dynamics don't apply to me because I'm not a two-dimensional cut-out of a man. I know for the record, that I have built-in inadequacies ingrained by patriarchy, as well as various problems from living in a predatory capitalist society. I do find great fault in the idea of shaming people into behaving like good men. Like women, men need to develop critical thinking. I do indeed find it sexist to say that women are damaged by patriarchy, and men are not. What I find most damaging about this sort of militant feminism, is the exclusion of an open dialogue, which I would say epitomizes equal grounds in relationships. Otherwise, I would say I agree with a great many points made.


Some of the questions work off the assumption that I'm hetero therefore I disregard the whole thing.

:lol: I'm not sure if you were joking. The quiz is ridiculously specific in targeting a certain audience. Yes, it is basically in the form of a rant and yes, that may diminish its productiveness. However, I find that people often apply a criticism to feminists rants that they wouldn't otherwise apply in their own politics or those they agree with. I often enjoy rants :p loosen up people. While many men do need to take these points seriously; the ones that really do... wont.


8. Do you say anything when other men make sexist or patriarchal
comments?
I agree that not standing up against something, does not make you a part of it. I don't want to be beaten up in a locker room, that doesn't make me a sexist jock.


18. Can you only show affection and be loving to your partner in front
of friends and family or only in private?
Both men and women have such emotional problems. I don't even understand what this one is getting at.


32. Do you talk to your female friends about things you don't talk to
your male friends about especially emotional issues?
Men and women are socialized different and talk to me about different issues. I refuse to accept full responsibility for the parameters of discussion.
I would say the real question is: how open is any person. Women are often closed off and men can be far too open (to me)... just because I'm male doesn't mean I want to hear it. I would be more apt to ask about what men do not discuss with women. Additionally, women often are suppressed emotionally and do not express themselves. Of course, I would say we have an overall culture of emotional suppression; men and women are expected to cope differently in their roles.


33. Do you constantly fall in love with your female friends Are you
friends
with women until you find out that they are not in love with you too
and then end the friendships? Are you only friends with women who are
in monogamous or committed relationships with other people?
Quite the opposite actually (perhaps not constantly). I find women dump friendships often when romance fails for whatever reason. Presumably out of the idea that either men and women cannot just be friends or that a friendship is ruined in such intances. I am hesitant to pursue relationships because I have seen a 100% rate of friendships ending... depressing.


42. Are you constantly amazed by the magical "food fairy" who
mysteriously
acquires food, brings it home, puts it away, prepares it in meal form
and then cleans up afterwards?
I know my father is, as was my grandfather on my mother's side. As far as a great many men are concerned, it is women's work. I was not properly trained in food preparation, but then I avoided my reactionary parents; mixed bag. More learning for me...


52. Do you get emotional needs met by other women, whether or not you
are in a romantic relationship with them? Or do you cultivate caring,
nurturing relationships with other men in which you can discuss your
feelings and get your needs met by them?
This question is unfair. Men are socially programed to be emotionally distant. You cannot put the responsibility entirely on the person answering this question.


56. Do you use intimidation, yelling, getting in someone’s physical
space,
threats or violence to get your point across? Do you create and
atmosphere
or violence around women or others to threaten them (i.e.: throw
things,
break things, yell and scream, threaten, attack, tease or terrorize the
animals or pets of women in your life)?
Wow, scary shit. I find that men are less likely to act out this way with other men, often just due to fear of confrontation. I would seriously consider my means of self-defense if I was confronted in such a way. This is mostly emotional abuse and that much I've experienced, but in my experience, men sometimes see other males as more acceptable people to be violent with (they're stronger, they can take it, it's in the male role, etc.).


59. Do you talk to other men about patriarchy and your part in it? Yes, yes and no. I find this offensive, as part of the all men are the problem mantra. You can't attack someone for being male and then expect them to be self-critical. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

[Unclebananahead]

I suppose I have to admit a certain fondness for, "Anarcho-Crusty Punk
Barbies." That notwithstanding, anybody who knows me can and will tell you that my tastes in women encompass a fairly wide spectrum of body types--ranging from more 'Barbie-like' all the way to full-figured, voluptuous women. I just don't like extremes: not ultra short, ultra tall, ultra thin, or ultra obese. And I should add to the record that I have been with a number of women who would be classified by many as BBW's (big beautiful women), so I would hardly think that I'm some sort of rabid advocate for mainstream feminine beauty standards. In fact, I sort of tend to think of myself as a white Sir Mix-A-Lot, and we would do well to remember his timeless wisdom, when he remarked, "So Cosmo says you're fat/ Well I ain't down with that!/'Cause your waist is small and your curves are kickin'/And I'm thinkin' bout stickin'"

All jests aside, as far as the rest of the 'questionnaire' is concerned, I think I by and large concur with user Blackscare. The supposed 'questions' do read more like hostile statements with question marks attached. Reading through the 'questions,' I felt as though the author was attempting to shame me into agreeing with her/him, and admit that yes, I am in fact an evil 'manarchist' (though really I'd be more of a 'commu-manist' or something to that effect). And moreover, they do attribute faults to men that are more properly attributable to both sexes.

This is not to say that the article does not make some valid points. It's just that the author seems to be out to villainize *all men* by establishing a lose-lose framework for men's behavior. The first 'question' is a strong confirmation of this in my opinion, in suggesting that men are either outwardly, aggressively domineering of women (the uncloseted patriarchalists), or passively aggressively *pretending* to be helpless as a way of manipulating women to serve them (the closeted patriarchalists)--ignoring of course women's capacity to engage in this sort of behavior. It sounds like I'm damned if I do, and damned if I don't. So how's a man like myself--one who considers himself to be rather enlightened--to respond?

[Bilan]

I never understood "grrl" instead of "girl"...
Why is that used?

[Killfacer]

These are the main ones i think are a bit crap.

"15. Do you ever find yourself monitoring and limiting your behavior and
speech in meetings and activist settings because you don't want’ to
take
up too much space or dominate the group? Are you aware of the fact that
women do this all the time?"

Okay, here the author seems to be speaking from personel experiance and applying it to half the population of the planet. Just seems like the author feels sorry for themselves.

"36. Do you find yourself only attracted to "Anarcho-Crusty Punk
Barbie",
Alterna-Grrrl Barbie," or Hardcore-Grrrl Barbie?" (The idea here being
that the only women you arc attracted to fit mainstream beauty
standards
but just dress and do their hair alternatively and maybe have piercings
and tattoos) Do you question and challenge your internalized ideals of
mainstream beauty ideals for women?"

So now it's sexist if i don't "challenge my internalized ideals of mainstream beauty". Or in other words, finding a certain type of woman attractive is now sexist. I can be criticised for a lot of things, but finding certain people attractive? Hmmmm.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What the hell are "mainstream beauty standards" anyway?

[Wanted Man]

Well I've never known anyone who had all their shit together.



The quiz wasn't calling them out on anything, I'm not sure where you got that from?
You're right, nobody is perfect, and anyone can improve their personality. I did stick the "necessarily" in there. But the point of the conclusion of the quiz seems to be that men somehow inherently have issues with sexism, and all of them need to work on that. As if sexism is just a problem of manhood itself... Understanding and dealing with your privilege as a man, and being a good political ally (http://www.revleft.com/vb/does-mean-good-t42462/index.html) is a different thing than checking whether you like anarcho-crusty barbies. :rolleyes:

As for the second part: then why mention it specifically? It could just as well have said "Do you find yourself only attracted to Paris Hilton look-a-likes?" or "Do you find yourself only attracted to Iron Bolshevik ladies?"

It's all dumb stereotype, but apparently, the idea is that "the only women you arc attracted to fit mainstream beauty standards but just dress and do their hair alternatively". To be fair, it's hard to make any sense out of this section at all. But if there is nothing wrong with being "Alterna-Grrrl Barbie" (:rolleyes:), then what's wrong with being attracted to "them"?

But these are just examples. The real question is what the "point" of the whole damn quiz is. I don't think that women who comment on sexism are "feminazis", I've certainly grown out of making jokes about "PMSing", I don't think there's a "food fairy" (ffs!), and I do listen when a woman calls me out on my patriarchy (wait, it's "my" patriarchy now?). But maybe I'm a "manarchist" because I don't appreciate this obnoxious list itself?

Hmm, or maybe the anarchist movement needs these checklists to control its own behaviour and inherent machismo. But I can think of a fair few anarchists who would resent such a suggestion.

[Vahanian]

What the hell are "mainstream beauty standards" anyway?

i think it's this kinda stuff

http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/issues/stereotyping/women_and_girls/women_beauty.cfm

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

i think it's this kinda stuff

http://www.media-awareness.ca/english/issues/stereotyping/women_and_girls/women_beauty.cfm

Maybe it's just me, but I see quite a few women out and about who are not skinny, white and with straight hair, who could be considered beautiful.

Yes, the media projects an idealised image of women, but looking at how women actually look and what men actually go for tells a different story.

[Elect Marx]

but looking at how women actually look and what men actually go for tells a different story.

The media sells an ideal. If you are paying for the unattainable, you never stop paying... that's just good marketing. Essentially women's bodies are marketed as a product. Get women to invest in themselves and men to consume. This is a market ideal: everyone paying for useless crap and inane standards. Body images down, profits up. Relationships and mental health suffers, dependency rises and consumerism soars.

[#FF0000]

I am 0% manarchist according to this. Feeling pretty good about myself right now.

[Bilan]

Rorschac missed the scoring system.

[Plagueround]

If I had known this was going to cause this much controversy, I would have left it in it's original mangled form. I suppose I took this as tongue in cheek and purposefully abrasive, but still containing some good points.

[Elect Marx]

Bilian, you are hilarious. Seriously though, the author seems to see all social ills through the lens of patriarchy. At some point men can be nothing but evil in such a worldview and you defeat yourself. Much like the bourgeois sport of golf, you only get points for fucking up; which is ironically applying a form of criticism to men, that feminists (fairly) say should not be applied to women.


If I had known this was going to cause this much controversy, I would have left it in it's original mangled form. I suppose I took this as tongue in cheek and purposefully abrasive, but still containing some good points.

Easy to read is always good. The controversy simply means this topic has a great deal of potential for resolution and understanding, despite the abrasiveness (and at times enjoyable humor) involved.