Fresh Republican killings in Northern Ireland.

[skki]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/08/northern-ireland-army-base-shooting
This was a bit of a shock. It's been over 10 years since the last Republican attack. Opinions?

[DancingLarry]

Noticed the continuous use of the words "terrorism" and "terrorist" in the article. How is an attack on a military base "terrorism"?

[skki]

Noticed the continuous use of the words "terrorism" and "terrorist" in the article. How is an attack on a military base "terrorism"?
Well It's the style of the Republicans to attack in order to create fear, and use the fear to push their agenda. I don't like using the word terrorist, but it fits the bill so well in this case.

[Charles Xavier]

For the Irish Republic! Death to the British occupiers! Long live a united Ireland!

[scarletghoul]

Interesting.

[Charles Xavier]

Though seriously a political struggle I think can be won by the Republican forces against the occupiers.

[PRC-UTE]

atm we don't know who carried out this attack.

I'd wait till some mroe facts filter in before commenting.

according to the media the Brit soldiers thought they were getting a pizza :lol:

[Saorsa]

On the one hand, good on them for killing British soldiers and fighting imperialism. On the other hand, actions like this are useless without a mass political movement to back them up. Armed struggle should flow from the political struggle and be backed up by it, otherwise it degenerates into actions totally disconnected from the masses. There's no mass desire or support for armed struggle in Ireland at the moment and the goal of Republicans is to win this support before they even contemplate launching these sort of attacks.

[Asoka89]

Okay--- if this act of violence is useless without a mass movement.. and trust me the mass movement and the population's will to support them ended along 10 years+ ago... and you seem to agree with me here, then why is it good that they killed two British soldiers?

[PRC-UTE]

Okay--- if this act of violence is useless without a mass movement.. and trust me the mass movement and the population's will to support them ended along 10 years+ ago... and you seem to agree with me here, then why is it good that they killed two British soldiers?

I'm not speaking for Alastair, but often the expressed hope is that such actions could damage normalisation and create a crisis that would bring down Stormont. As well as discrediting SF; their deal with the Brits is that they police the nationalists. armed actions could possibly undermine that arrangement. the deal SF has with the nationalist population is keeping the Brits off their backs. that could be coming to a dramatic end after this shooting.

I don't know about this. seems odd that it hasn't been claimed yet. the timing is convenient for the British to justify bringing back their special forces/ military intelligence.

[Mindtoaster]

I'm not speaking for Alastair, but often the expressed hope is that such actions could damage normalisation and create a crisis that would bring down Stormont. As well as discrediting SF; their deal with the Brits is that they police the nationalists. armed actions could possibly undermine that arrangement. the deal SF has with the nationalist population is keeping the Brits off their backs. that could be coming to a dramatic end after this shooting.

I don't know about this. seems odd that it hasn't been claimed yet. the timing is convenient for the British to justify bringing back their special forces/ military intelligence.

It would also be perfect time for a retaliatory attack to the apparent escalation in the British's military presence. We'll have to see the measures the Brits take in response to this attack before we start hypothesizing on whether or not it has been a kind of "inside job", though I am not going to dismiss the possibility too quickly.

To paraphrase what some have already said: I'm not going to mourn the death of the two soldiers (the civilians injured turned out to be security contractors), but these attacks really don't accomplish much and could possibly harm the republican movement. Only time will tell, however

[Mindtoaster]

These guys will be up to the minute with all the developments:

http://www.irishrepublican.net/forum/showthread.php?t=28629

Not sure whether or not you need an account to view

[skki]

Is it still imperialism when the occupied vote to keep the occupiers in power?

[Hessian Peel]

Is it still capitalism when the majority 'vote for it'?

[skki]

Is it still capitalism when the majority 'vote for it'?
....
yes it is.
idiot?

[Bitter Ashes]

Great... blast a few more people for just doing thier jobs, which last I checked was to prevent those nutcases planting any more bombs in shopping centres.

[Madvillainy]

What have nationalists gangsters like this got to offer the working class? What is the point in fruitless attacks like this?

All I see this achieving is deepening the sectarian divide in Northern Ireland. :(

[Andropov]

Great... blast a few more people for just doing thier jobs, which last I checked was to prevent those nutcases planting any more bombs in shopping centres.

That is absurd in the extreme.

[Hessian Peel]

....
yes it is.
idiot?

Missing the point are we?

[Hessian Peel]

Great... blast a few more people for just doing thier jobs, which last I checked was to prevent those nutcases planting any more bombs in shopping centres.

Sure they're just workers in uniform right? :rolleyes:

The tramps have no excuse.

[Bitter Ashes]

Lets just remind ourselves about that 300lb car bomb left outside a primary school only 8 weeks ago and who put it there and who defused it.
Just remind yourself that the only reason there's troops in Northern Ireland is to prevent those lunatics from the South from murdering more civilians in Northern Ireland. Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...

[Andropov]

Lets just remind ourselves about that 300lb car bomb left outside a primary school only 8 weeks ago and who put it there and who defused it.
Just remind yourself that the only reason there's troops in Northern Ireland is to prevent those lunatics from the South from murdering more civilians in Northern Ireland. Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...

:lol:
That is mental.
Ohh the glorious self sacraficing soldiers of her majestys British Army.

[Coggeh]

Lets just remind ourselves about that 300lb car bomb left outside a primary school only 8 weeks ago and who put it there and who defused it.
Just remind yourself that the only reason there's troops in Northern Ireland is to prevent those lunatics from the South from murdering more civilians in Northern Ireland. Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...
Hmm let us remind ourselves of 800 years of direct oppression , bloody sunday (1 & 2 ) repression of catholics in the north .

We could go on about this forever my friend . We don't need to condone or support the IRA to understand them . Do you think they fell out of the sky or something ? and just decided to kill people randomly ? .


I don't feel much sympathy's for the British soldiers it must be said but this attack progresses nothing. It was idiotic .

[Pogue]

Lets just remind ourselves about that 300lb car bomb left outside a primary school only 8 weeks ago and who put it there and who defused it.
Just remind yourself that the only reason there's troops in Northern Ireland is to prevent those lunatics from the South from murdering more civilians in Northern Ireland. Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...

Lets just remind ourselves of Bloody Sunday?

[Killfacer]

Lets just remind ourselves of Bloody Sunday?

Why? We all know what bloody sunday is. That's not a justification for blowing up a bloody school is it.

It's frankly childish how people react to this, when one side does something horrific they say: "well they did this a couple of decades ago so it's fine".

[Pogue]

Why? We all know what bloody sunday is. That's not a justification for blowing up a bloody school is it.

It's frankly childish how people react to this, when one side does something horrific they say: "well they did this a couple of decades ago so it's fine".

You misunderstand my point.

He was talking about how the British Army were so good and are helping people in Ireland, so I referred him to how the Brits murdered 13 innocent protestors on Bloody Sunday.

[Pogue]

Just remind yourself that the only reason there's troops in Northern Ireland is to prevent those lunatics from the South from murdering more civilians in Northern Ireland. Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...


See this is what she said. British Army is so wonderful because they saved some peoples lives form the IRA. And so I responded:


Lets just remind ourselves of Bloody Sunday?


Look, the British Army killed 13 innocents.

[Killfacer]

You misunderstand my point.

He was talking about how the British Army were so good and are helping people in Ireland, so I referred him to how the Brits murdered 13 innocent protestors on Bloody Sunday.

Yes, but people only said it in response to him saying they planned on bombing a school. That's clearly attempting to justify it.

[Pogue]

Yes, but people only said it in response to him saying they planned on bombing a school. That's clearly attempting to justify it.

Thats not me though. The British Army and loyalists are/were fucked up in Ireland, and so are/were the IRA groups. I was merely syaing you can't paint the BA as the protectors of the Irish against the evil IRA because thats a huge lie, it makes no sense.

[Hessian Peel]

I bet those soldiers regret ordering pepper on their pizzas.

[JohannGE]

Great... blast a few more people for just doing thier jobs, which last I checked was to prevent those nutcases planting any more bombs in shopping centres.

I don't know where you checked but I found:-

"Its primary task is to help defend the interests of the UK"
http://www.army.mod.uk/structure/structure.aspx

UK in effect meaning the UK parliment. I think it can be safely assumed that individual deployments would be subordinate to that primary task.

That is, they are there as the military wing of the uk parliment for the purpose of enforcing the political will of that parliment.

Some will say that as such, they deserve all they get. "Just doing there job's" having been dismissed as a defence since Nurenburg.

[PRC-UTE]

Lets just remind ourselves about that 300lb car bomb left outside a primary school only 8 weeks ago and who put it there and who defused it.
Just remind yourself that the only reason there's troops in Northern Ireland is to prevent those lunatics from the South from murdering more civilians in Northern Ireland. Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...

just a point of order. not that I"m defending leaving the bomb there, however the bomb was intended for use against soldiers and then abandoned for some reason. it was most likely the people who made the bomb who phoned the Brits to take it away.

which I think was not a good place to leave a bomb of course. but it's not as if the school was a target.

[PRC-UTE]

Look, the British Army killed 13 innocents.

and interestingly enough, the same British soldiers that committed Bloody Sunday also shot dead unarmed civilians before that. it was definitely a pattern of massacres.

[Vanguard1917]

On the one hand, good on them for killing British soldiers and fighting imperialism. On the other hand, actions like this are useless without a mass political movement to back them up.

I basically agree with the second sentence. And, having done so, i can't agree with the first sentence. The two sentences seem to contradict one another. How can an action be useless if it is 'fighting imperialism'?

[Pogue]

and interestingly enough, the same British soldiers that committed Bloody Sunday also shot dead unarmed civilians before that. it was definitely a pattern of massacres.

Well we know the British state and Army had absolute contempt for the Irish and Catholics who they saw as idiots and scum. We also know the brutality of the state and capital in pursuing its interests. There was contempt and sadism in their actions in Ireland.

[PRC-UTE]

Well we know the British state and Army had absolute contempt for the Irish and Catholics who they saw as idiots and scum. We also know the brutality of the state and capital in pursuing its interests. There was contempt and sadism in their actions in Ireland.

I don't agree that we all know this. More importantly, I don't agree that we all care. Some of our comrades here care far more about Brit soldiers who were killed by republicans than they do about nationalist civilians still being attacked and murdered. I don't recall seeing any of these comrades who condemn attacks on the occupation forces condemning attacks on Irish civilians.

[Pogue]

I don't agree that we all know this. More importantly, I don't agree that we all care. Some of our comrades here care far more about Brit soldiers who were killed by republicans than they do about nationalist civilians still being attacked and murdered. I don't recall seeing any of these comrades who condemn attacks on the occupation forces condemning attacks on Irish civilians.

I know, its an absurd position, and a questionable one. If you take the side of the British Army on the Irish question, it leads to questions on what sort of politics you hold. Sounds like jingoistic British ruling class imperialism to me.

[PRC-UTE]

I basically agree with the second sentence. And, having done so, i can't agree with the first sentence. The two sentences seem to contradict one another. How can an action be useless if it is 'fighting imperialism'?

Fighting against imperialism and having the capability to defeat it are two distinct things.

the logic in these actions is that they demonstrate that Ireland is still occupied, and disrupt the British strategy of normalising their presence. those who carry out attacks hope to provoke a crisis in the fragile peace process and disrupt Stormont.

again, I'm not advocating armed actions, just explaining.

[Hoggy_RS]

these lads paid the price for being part of the illegal british occupation of ireland

[Djehuti]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/08/northern-ireland-army-base-shooting
This was a bit of a shock. It's been over 10 years since the last Republican attack. Opinions?

No surprice really. The british goverment has strengthened their occupation of Northern Ireland with more troops, and SF is loosing support. The peace treaty has been a big disappointment, it did not achieve anything, so I'ts quite logical that the armed struggle would return.

[FreeFocus]

The two British troops some of you are mourning were slated to be shipped to Afghanistan (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7930995.stm) to occupy another country and suppress its cultural, political, and social expression and existence.

[Comrade B]

I support killings of government officials and military personnel when the reason can be seen. All this looks like to me is killing people for revenge. If the people who killed them said it was a reminder of the struggle, or left something saying why these soldiers deserved death, I would support it, however as far as we know, the soldiers could have been at a cocaine deal gone wrong. Just because they are soldiers for the opposition doesn't mean their killers are heroes. The individuals were attacked in the situation, not the British government.

I am all for the liberation movement in Ireland though, but I think that people should only kill when they have a reason to kill, not just because they have the opportunity.

[BobKKKindle$]

Pity that Manchester's Arndale Centre, Dixons in Warrington, or the Birmingham pubs were not so lucky as to have soldiers around...Yes, and the best scenario of all would be to have noble British soldiers posted in every single country around the world, including Ireland, so they can stop people getting hurt, and enforce Pax Britannica just like they did back in the good old days before those nasty natives started to demand independence. Sarcasm aside, you have an incredibly naive view of the role and behavior of British soldiers. The armed forces of any imperialist state are used to protect the overseas interests of the ruling class by imposing political dominance and containing the struggles of oppressed populations, they are not used to save the lives of civilians, or stop rival political factions from hurting each other. The Irish were mistreated and abused at the hands of the Black and Tans during the independence struggle, and even today Catholics living in northern Ireland where the British state has not yet relinquished its colonial presence continue to encounter political discrimination and constitute a super-exploited section of the working class. If someone is part of an imperialist occupation, be it in Ireland or Iraq, then they are directly complicit in the dominance of British imperialism, and the underdevelopment of the global south, and that makes them a legitimate target for anti-imperialist movements, such that if someone is killed at the hands of a genuine movement, as distinct from isolated acts of terrorism, socialists should support such an event, however much we may regret the need for people to die in order to advance the struggle against imperialism.

[Charles Xavier]

Why are we allowing a British loyalist to be outside of the restricted zone?

Scaeme doesn't belong here, he is no revolutionary leftist just an apologist for British Imperialism. The problem with the Republicans is that they didn't kill enough British soldiers under the course of their occupation. And I'm not advocating new violence just yet as there is a political struggle that can be won against Britain for Irish Unification.

[Dóchas]

I support killings of government officials and military personnel when the reason can be seen. All this looks like to me is killing people for revenge. If the people who killed them said it was a reminder of the struggle, or left something saying why these soldiers deserved death, I would support it, however as far as we know, the soldiers could have been at a cocaine deal gone wrong. Just because they are soldiers for the opposition doesn't mean their killers are heroes. The individuals were attacked in the situation, not the British government.

I am all for the liberation movement in Ireland though, but I think that people should only kill when they have a reason to kill, not just because they have the opportunity.

i think the republicans had more than enough reasons to kill 2 british soldiers.


800 odd years of oppression
bloody sunday (1 and 2)
partition of north and south (government of ireland act 1920)
pretty much trashed anglo-irish agreement of 1985
unionist rule of northern ireland for about 50 years
RUC brutality
Special powers act 1922 (allowed them to arrest anyone they wanted)
Catholic workers lost jobs eg. the harland and wolff shipyards
Gerrymandering of votes
Im sure i have left out loads of reasons but is that enough for you to justify killing them?

[Bitter Ashes]

Why are we allowing a British loyalist to be outside of the restricted zone?

Scaeme doesn't belong here, he is no revolutionary leftist just an apologist for British Imperialism. The problem with the Republicans is that they didn't kill enough British soldiers under the course of their occupation. And I'm not advocating new violence just yet as there is a political struggle that can be won against Britain for Irish Unification.
Upon the advice of somebody else on these forums, I've kept my nose out of this debate, however, I will not ignore this. Please get the story straight before you make any more personal flames.
Firstly, I'm really not fond of bieng reffered to as "he". I get quite enough of that BS offline thank you!
Secondly, me holding sympathies for enlisted soliders does not constitute support for the actions of thier officers and the civilians of the House of Commons that direct them.
Finaly, me condeming a bunch of nationalist thugs that have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and hold no socialist ideals whatsoever, does not conflict upon leftism. If I was saying that Marx was totaly deluded or something then you'd have a fair point
I am most certainly expecting an apology!

[Pogue]

Upon the advice of somebody else on these forums, I've kept my nose out of this debate, however, I will not ignore this. Please get the story straight before you make any more personal flames.
Firstly, I'm really not fond of bieng reffered to as "he". I get quite enough of that BS offline thank you!
Secondly, me holding sympathies for enlisted soliders does not constitute support for the actions of thier officers and the civilians of the House of Commons that direct them.
Finaly, me condeming a bunch of nationalist thugs that have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and hold no socialist ideals whatsoever, does not conflict upon leftism. If I was saying that Marx was totaly deluded or something then you'd have a fair point, but you are talking about a group that kneecaps thier own for coming out as gay!
I am most certainly expecting an apology!

However, openly praising and supporting the British Army in their involvement in Northern Ireland does conflict upon leftism.

[ZeroNowhere]

i think the republicans had more than enough reasons to kill 2 british soldiers.


800 odd years of oppression
bloody sunday (1 and 2)
partition of north and south (government of ireland act 1920)
pretty much trashed anglo-irish agreement of 1985
unionist rule of northern ireland for about 50 years
RUC brutality
Special powers act 1922 (allowed them to arrest anyone they wanted)
Catholic workers lost jobs eg. the harland and wolff shipyards
Gerrymandering of votes
Im sure i have left out loads of reasons but is that enough for you to justify killing them?
Wow. Those are some pretty active two soldiers, huh?
Unless you are referring to 'reasons' as in reasons that they did it, but then the fact that they had reasons is obvious, but that wouldn't fit with the use of 'more than enough'.

[Charles Xavier]

Upon the advice of somebody else on these forums, I've kept my nose out of this debate, however, I will not ignore this. Please get the story straight before you make any more personal flames.
Firstly, I'm really not fond of bieng reffered to as "he". I get quite enough of that BS offline thank you!
Secondly, me holding sympathies for enlisted soliders does not constitute support for the actions of thier officers and the civilians of the House of Commons that direct them.
Finaly, me condeming a bunch of nationalist thugs that have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and hold no socialist ideals whatsoever, does not conflict upon leftism. If I was saying that Marx was totaly deluded or something then you'd have a fair point, but you are talking about a group that kneecaps thier own for coming out as gay!
I am most certainly expecting an apology!

Now you are calling us Republicans homophobes and nationalists thugs for wanting the occupation to end in Ireland.

There are Republicans who are right-wing bastards, as there are British who are members of the BNP but unlike a philistine that you are I do not call all British people Neo-nazis because of a small group of them subscribing to their views.


Do not forget that the guy who decided where to attack and who to kill in the Provisional IRA was a British Secret Agent, the horrible attacks against the civilian population were being directed by British Intelligence.

Any attack despite how counter-productive or frivilious it may be against an occupying force is justified.

My ancestors fled Ireland out of the oppressive policies of Britain, especially during the famine.

The only apology a British loyalist will get is that I'm sorry that we didn't kill enough of you bastards during the war. And I'm sorry that your illegal occupation will eventually fail and Ireland will once again be united.

[Bitter Ashes]

I'm not even going to even begin to comment on your other comments, as frankly, I think I need to calm down a bit before I end up responding in the same way you have. I am not taking that flame-bait. I will be looking into this however, as it is something I was not previously aware of.

Do not forget that the guy who decided where to attack and who to kill in the Provisional IRA was a British Secret Agent, the horrible attacks against the civilian population were being directed by British Intelligence.
It does NOT change my firm belief that the anti-soldier and anti-police sentiments expressed are a form of intollerance, close-mindedness and a threat to any succesful break from capitalism. What it may do, if I can validate it, is release PIRA, at least, of some guilt in thier part of the civilian-directed violence if PIRA were only following orders from British Intelligence. I will look into it anyway.

[BobKKKindle$]

It does NOT change my firm belief that the anti-soldier and anti-police sentiments expressed are a form of intollerance, close-mindedness and a threat to any succesful break from capitalism.Why shouldn't we be anti-soldier? The British troops who are currently stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan are complicit in the rape and murder of civilians, and are directly supporting the continuing dominance of British imperialism in those two countries and throughout the world. We don't celebrate death for its own sake, and it's sometimes true that workers are pressured to join the military because they lack qualifications and have no other way to gain an income and support their families, but in the final analysis, it's unlikely that the British state will simply withdraw of its own accord because workers are oppossed to the occupation, or because it encounters opposition inside Britain from the anti-war movement, and so the only way to put pressure on the imperialist powers and eventually force a withdrawal is through violence, directed against soldiers who are part of the occupation. We also encourage soldiers to shoot their officers and do anything they can to undermine the occupation from the inside, through violence if necessary, but as long as they refuse to do that, and continue to benefit from their role as illegal occupiers, they are legitimate targets for the resistance, and there's no reason for socialists to get upset about imperialist soldiers dying.

[Dóchas]

Wow. Those are some pretty active two soldiers, huh?
Unless you are referring to 'reasons' as in reasons that they did it, but then the fact that they had reasons is obvious, but that wouldn't fit with the use of 'more than enough'.

when they signed up they joined the british army. it is a single entity whos actions are accountable to all who are a part of it.

im not really sure what you maen by the second bit

[Sam_b]

but you are talking about a group that kneecaps thier own for coming out as gay!
I am most certainly expecting an apology!

I think it is you that should be apologising for another unsourced slander against the Irish Republican movement.

Its not a case of being anti-soldier, by the way: its a case of being anti-imperialist. We understand that the military recruits from poor working class areas, and thrives on the alienation of swathes of this population. However, this does not taint that the army are the immediate manifestation of imperialism and occupation, in many places including Northern Ireland. It is a legitimate tactic of resistance forces to target the military that subordinates their country. In short: we don't cheer or celebrate another dead soldier, but we understand why this has happened and offer our support to the forces that are fighting for their freedom and against occupation.

[Dóchas]

Finaly, me condeming a bunch of nationalist thugs that have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and hold no socialist ideals whatsoever, does not conflict upon leftism. If I was saying that Marx was totaly deluded or something then you'd have a fair point, but you are talking about a group that kneecaps thier own for coming out as gay!
I am most certainly expecting an apology!


care to give us a source for your "claims" :rolleyes:

[Redmau5]

Finaly, me condeming a bunch of nationalist thugs that have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and hold no socialist ideals whatsoever, does not conflict upon leftism.

It certainly does, because you have shown yourself to be completely ignorant of the historical and political situation in regards to the conflict in Northern Ireland. Many of those people that you describe as "nationalist thugs" were young socialist men and women, who were regularly being harrassed, imprisoned (often without trial), tortured and murdered by the RUC, British Army and loyalist paramilitaries. Do you think the hundreds of young men and women who joined the IRA in the 1970's and 1980's took the decision to do so lightly?

As another poster pointed out, the PIRA simply didn't fall out of the sky and start bombing and shooting. They were a direct response to loyalist and British state violence.

[Hessian Peel]

I support killings of government officials and military personnel when the reason can be seen. All this looks like to me is killing people for revenge.

It clearly had nothing to do with revenge as the conlfict is ongoing.


however as far as we know, the soldiers could have been at a cocaine deal gone wrong.The RIRA may be known as the 'Cokes' but it has nothing to do with cocaine. :lol:


Just because they are soldiers for the opposition doesn't mean their killers are heroes. The individuals were attacked in the situation, not the British government.These soldiers are agents of the British government.


I am all for the liberation movement in Ireland though, but I think that people should only kill when they have a reason to kill, not just because they have the opportunity.Agreed.

[Bitter Ashes]

The more I look into the subject, the more it's reinforcing my opposition of the IRA and I honestly cannot see any way I can possibly support these people.
Well, this is the point where I do the mature thing and just agree to disagree.
Contary to what has been said here, I dont think that me abandoning the rest of the stuff I've learned in Revleft is something positive at all, for the sake of a single disagreement.
Unless of course, anyone wants to continue this path of closing doors at whim.

[Pogue]

Can't you understand why some of us might be opposed to you be a fan girl for the British Army, considering their role both past and present?

[Sam_b]

Well, this is the point where I do the mature thing and just agree to disagree.

If you're going to 'agree to disagree', fair enough, but in accordance with that either source your claim of republican kneecapping of LGBT members or edit that ridiculous lie out of your post.

[Bitter Ashes]

Can't you understand why some of us might be opposed to you be a fan girl for the British Army, considering their role both past and present?
Most of my support is for the Toms, not the officers and not Gordon Brown, the current acting commander in chief.
There's a few bad eggs in there, but I'd say that there's less than ammoungst civilians. I can never get my head around how they are villified these days.
As I said though, I'm prepared to agree to disagree though, because no matter how hard either of us try, there's no ground bieng given here.

[brigadista]

scaeme i do not agree at all with your views and support the posts opposing them, however please have some awareness and consider that the tactics used against our Irish brothers and sisters in the six counties, were a training ground for the suppression of striking workers in england during the 80s and the black uprisings during that time..maybe you will have more understanding if you consider things within this context

[Redmau5]

Most of my support is for the Toms, not the officers and not Gordon Brown, the current acting commander in chief.
There's a few bad eggs in there, but I'd say that there's less than ammoungst civilians. I can never get my head around how they are villified these days.
As I said though, I'm prepared to agree to disagree though, because no matter how hard either of us try, there's no ground bieng given here.

I understand that you sympathize with ordinary working-class soldiers. However, supporting British Army occupations, either past or present, is a fundamentally reactionary position.

[Bitter Ashes]

If you're going to 'agree to disagree', fair enough, but in accordance with that either source your claim of republican kneecapping of LGBT members or edit that ridiculous lie out of your post.
A friend told me about it a few years back when we were talking about homophobia in Catholism. I'll see what I can find.

[Dóchas]

A friend told me about it a few years back when we were talking about homophobia in Catholism. I'll see what I can find.

not all IRA members were catholic sure, most of them were but they werent really fighting on religious grounds it was more on "get the fuck out of my land" grounds

[Charles Xavier]

The only reason there is a strong protestant Irish population, is because the Catholics weren't allowed to own property so they had a family member to convert to protestantism so as to keep the family farm, eventually through the course of hundreds of years they forgot why they were originally protestant. My ancestors were Irish Protestant but still republican.

The conflict isn't over religion though Religion was used by the British as a buffer, just like they used Indians in Southern Africa to the mangerial class above the blacks so they wouldn't look to the British as their enemies and instead target the Indian population, or in India they would use Persians. In Vietnam they used Ethnic Chinese. This is a tactic they have used all across the world to divide and conquer, have a different ethnic group be enforcers.

[Pogue]

For example I'm a protestant, anglo-irish, and I sympathise with the Republicna cause a hell of alot more than I do the Loyalist one. I'm an Anarchist but on this issue in isolation you'd probably call me an republican if you heard how I talk about Ireland.

[Bitter Ashes]

A friend told me about it a few years back when we were talking about homophobia in Catholism. I'll see what I can find.
I've been searching around and I dont seem to find anything about it, so I'll accept that I cannot verify whether it actualy happened or not, so, as requested, I'm editing it out.

[Pogue]

I've been searching around and I dont seem to find anything about it, so I'll accept that I cannot verify whether it actualy happened or not, so, as requested, I'm editing it out.

The British Army and homophobia, however, is a different matter...

[FreeFocus]

It does NOT change my firm belief that the anti-soldier and anti-police sentiments expressed are a form of intollerance, close-mindedness and a threat to any succesful break from capitalism. What it may do, if I can validate it, is release PIRA, at least, of some guilt in thier part of the civilian-directed violence if PIRA were only following orders from British Intelligence. I will look into it anyway.

Why is intolerance necessarily a bad thing? An anti-fascist doesn't tolerate fascism or fascists. An anti-racist doesn't tolerate racism or racist. An anti-capitalist doesn't tolerate capitalists or capitalism. If the intolerance is justified, then there's no problem with it. Some things and people shouldn't be tolerated. Moreover, soldiers and police protect the status quo and, in imperialist states, suppress dissent (police) and invade and occupy other countries (soldiers). Granted, a person who is equally hostile to, say, the Bolivian military, as they are to the American military, is delusional. One must consider the situational factors and history: the American military was and is involved in conquering, oppressing, raping, pillaging, and occupying nations and countries. The Bolivian military has, at periods, been used to suppress dissent and entrench reactionary forces. This was only during times when Bolivia was under dictatorship - supported by, guess who, the US.

The British military has invariably been used to oppress and occupy. Nothing has changed, except they are now the junior partner of the United States. The British Empire is no longer the top thug on the planet.

Soldiers and police are part and parcel of capitalism and imperialism. If anything, tolerance for the institutions and the policies they physically enforce is a "threat to any successful break from capitalism," as you put it.

[Redmau5]

I've just heard reports that a police officer has been shot in Craigavon in county Armagh. There's basically no details about it yet but I'll post more if I find anything out.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

[Comrade B]

i think the republicans had more than enough reasons to kill 2 british soldiers.


800 odd years of oppression
bloody sunday (1 and 2)
partition of north and south (government of ireland act 1920)
pretty much trashed anglo-irish agreement of 1985
unionist rule of northern ireland for about 50 years
RUC brutality
Special powers act 1922 (allowed them to arrest anyone they wanted)
Catholic workers lost jobs eg. the harland and wolff shipyards
Gerrymandering of votes

Im sure i have left out loads of reasons but is that enough for you to justify killing them?
I am not saying that the history of England is spotless, I already said that I support the independence movement, however, before I know what the reason for the killing was, before the killers find a way to make a statement, I will not say I support or oppose the violence.


It clearly had nothing to do with revenge as the conlfict is ongoing.
If these specific soldiers have recently taken part in violence against the Irish community, to hell with them, I will wait for more information in the meantime.


The RIRA may be known as the 'Cokes' but it has nothing to do with cocaine. http://www.revleft.com/vb/../../revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif
My point was that there is no information about who the killers are, or why they did the killing, didn't mean to actually imply that that was the situation.


These soldiers are agents of the British government.
Nearly everybody in a capitalist country is doing their part for capitalism though, nonactive soldiers in an army base are as much an enemy as factory workers building Fords to be sold to the police of the US.

[Redmau5]

It's been confirmed that a PSNI officer has been shot dead in Craigavon, Co. Armagh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

No details as of yet as who was responsible for the shooting.

[FreeFocus]

Nearly everybody in a capitalist country is doing their part for capitalism though, nonactive soldiers in an army base are as much an enemy as factory workers building Fords to be sold to the police of the US.

Actually, these soldiers were not nonactive; they were slated to head to Afghanistan in the coming weeks. Afghanistan is somewhat of a separate issue from Ireland and the attacks were not motivated by anti-imperialist sympathy for Afghans, but I was just correcting your statement.

[PRC-UTE]

If these specific soldiers have recently taken part in violence against the Irish community, to hell with them, I will wait for more information in the meantime.


here's a photo of RIR soldiers posing with a banner in support of the Orangemen during the Drumcree standoff http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/photo-galleries/article13909724.ece?ino=59

Now I can't tell you how many times we see our British comrades on here ranting until they cover their computer screens in spittle about what a threat Muslim fundamentalists are. so here is a photo of a British regiment openly expressing support for violent religious fundamentalists. let's see if any of these anti-Muslim types will be consistent for once and be outraged about this.



My point was that there is no information about who the killers are, or why they did the killing, didn't mean to actually imply that that was the situation.

It's been claimed by the Real IRA, who phoned in a statement to a Dublin newspaper using a recognised code word. so we know who did it. this was building for some time.

what you are probably not aware of is how many republicans are being held by the British on purely political charges right now. a great many are. in that environment, people want to fight back.

[Dr Mindbender]

Theres been a cop killed now as well.

Was just on the news.

[PRC-UTE]

Theres been a cop killed now as well.

Was just on the news.

look up, Zoolander provided a link to the story

[Dr Mindbender]

look up, Zoolander provided a link to the story

Oh yeah, stupid me.

If the loyalists respond to this the peace process will be up shit creek without a proverbial paddle.

[Hessian Peel]

If the loyalists respond to this the peace process will be up shit creek without a proverbial paddle.

The Brits would never allow it.

[Hessian Peel]

It's been confirmed that a PSNI officer has been shot dead in Craigavon, Co. Armagh.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

No details as of yet as who was responsible for the shooting.

The Continuity IRA has claimed responsibility.

[Marxist]

I thought it was RIRA...

[Hessian Peel]

I thought it was RIRA...

They claimed responsibility for Saturday's attack.

[Marxist]

Oh , so combined attacks?

[Durruti02]

what total rubbish! ' .. didn't kill enough British soldiers .. ' that is just reactionary anti working class shite

there is NO nationalist solution for working class people .. it is divisive and ultimately ends up benefitting the ruling classes .. i wonder why republican violence appears just as we are about to enter a period of a general strike in ireland and mass class struggle in the UK ..


Why are we allowing a British loyalist to be outside of the restricted zone?

Scaeme doesn't belong here, he is no revolutionary leftist just an apologist for British Imperialism. The problem with the Republicans is that they didn't kill enough British soldiers under the course of their occupation. And I'm not advocating new violence just yet as there is a political struggle that can be won against Britain for Irish Unification.

[Andropov]

i wonder why republican violence appears just as we are about to enter a period of a general strike in ireland and mass class struggle in the UK ..

The cokes and contos have been ratcheting up attacks for over a year or so now.
Before the economic slump hit Ireland.
So if you ask me that theory is invalid.

[Durruti02]

The cokes and contos have been ratcheting up attacks for over a year or so now.
Before the economic slump hit Ireland.
So if you ask me that theory is invalid. the economic slump has been on the cards for two years now .. it started then in the USA

[Yazman]

Now you are calling us Republicans homophobes and nationalists thugs for wanting the occupation to end in Ireland.

There are Republicans who are right-wing bastards, as there are British who are members of the BNP but unlike a philistine that you are I do not call all British people Neo-nazis because of a small group of them subscribing to their views.


Do not forget that the guy who decided where to attack and who to kill in the Provisional IRA was a British Secret Agent, the horrible attacks against the civilian population were being directed by British Intelligence.

Any attack despite how counter-productive or frivilious it may be against an occupying force is justified.

My ancestors fled Ireland out of the oppressive policies of Britain, especially during the famine.

The only apology a British loyalist will get is that I'm sorry that we didn't kill enough of you bastards during the war. And I'm sorry that your illegal occupation will eventually fail and Ireland will once again be united.


The irony of a vanguardist telling the people here what is and is not acceptable for revolutionary leftists is not lost on me. It's neither your place nor anybody's place here to define what does and does not constitute appropriate views for a revolutionary leftist. I do not agree with Scaeme but telling people to "get out" or that they aren't appropriate for the revolutionary left isn't what we need to be doing.

[Andropov]

the economic slump has been on the cards for two years now .. it started then in the USA

Bollocks.
The only reason the cokes stopped for a few years was because of the backlash from Omagh.
Once they weathered that storm they started conducting operations again, it has no relevancy to the economic downturn.

[Hessian Peel]

i wonder why republican violence appears just as we are about to enter a period of a general strike in ireland and mass class struggle in the UK ..

The Real IRA was more active 10 years ago (during the peak of economic prosperity in Ireland) than it is now.

[Coggeh]

Don't know if this should be a new thread or whatever but anyway :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/10/northern-ireland-policeman-killed

Fresher IRA attacks .

The CIRA has claimed responsibility for killing a police officer last night .

Also their are reports of a pipe-bomb left outside the offices of Sinn Fein (according to Sky news) Can't find a link for that .


Ugh....

[Andropov]

Also their are reports of a pipe-bomb left outside the offices of Sinn Fein (according to Sky news) Can't find a link for that .


Of all the developments, if that one is true there could be serious reprocusions.

[Hessian Peel]

Of all the developments, if that one is true there could be serious reprocusions.

If it is true the Shinners probably placed it there themselves.

[Coggeh]

Of all the developments, if that one is true there could be serious reprocusions.
I saw it on skynews at around 7am they just said we have now reports of a pipe bomb that was left outside of the Sinn fein offices.

Just found a few links

The mirror:

Meanwhile, Sinn Fein said an object found outside one of their offices in Cookstown yesterday was a pipe bomb.Also

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e957ddb2-0ce2-11de-a555-0000779fd2ac.html


In separate incidents, police carried out searches in nearby Lurgan, after reports that an explosive device had been left at the town’s police station. In Cookstown, Sinn Féin said a pipe bomb had been found at the party’s offices.

[Andropov]

I saw it on skynews at around 7am they just said we have now reports of a pipe bomb that was left outside of the Sinn fein offices.

What im wondering is whether its, Loyalists or the cokes or contos?

[Andropov]

If it is true the Shinners probably placed it there themselves.

Aye, a possibility.

[Coggeh]

No idea who it was , could it have been a loyalist response ? Sinn fein are making few friends ...

[Hessian Peel]

No idea who it was , could it have been a loyalist response ? Sinn fein are making few friends ...

Why would Loyalists attack the Shinners though? Our Orange brethren may not be the sharpest tools in the shed but I think it's pretty clear to all concerned that the 'Union' is safe and that the Provies are now no different than the Stoops.

[Coggeh]

Why would Loyalists attack the Shinners though? Our Orange brethren may not be the sharpest tools in the shed but I think it's pretty clear to all concerned that the 'Union' is safe and that the Provies are now no different than the Stoops.
Ya i know . I meant their making few friends that now the Rira and the CIRA don't see them as much different from the rest .

[Hessian Peel]

To be honest I'd be surprised if there even was a device. The SF leadership have manufactured threats of assassination against their party membership in the past and it's simply a small, pathetic tactic that forms part of a much larger political trend. You'll have noticed in the past few days how the issue of support for the Republicans involved in these two attacks is often raised. Never in the past would Ulster Unionists, British politicians or military and police officials have brought this up as it never mattered how much support the PIRA or the INLA had. They were simply wrong; they were going against God & Ulster and the supposedly perfectly legal British occupation of the North East of Ireland.

Now, in order to safe-guard Sinn Féin's position as the ONLY legitimate voice of Republicanism, these same forces have to engage in a certain amount of historical revisionism, and that revisionism is the idea that PIRA's war against the British state was in someway justified as it led to Sinn Féin's eventual (inevitable?) capitulation to the status quo.

Just a thought.

[Andropov]

Why would Loyalists attack the Shinners though? Our Orange brethren may not be the sharpest tools in the shed but I think it's pretty clear to all concerned that the 'Union' is safe and that the Provies are now no different than the Stoops.

"yabba yabba doo, any Taig will do".

[Hessian Peel]

Ya i know . I meant their making few friends that now the Rira and the CIRA don't see them as much different from the rest .

They aren't any different to the rest, in my opinion, but to attack them would be asinine to say the least.

[Hessian Peel]

"yabba yabba doo, any Taig will do".

Indeed, but the state holds the Loyalist leash and I don't see them setting them on the nationalist population anytime soon. The normalisation strategy of the so-called 'peace process' has been more effective than centuries of horrific counter-revolutionary violence.

[Bilbo Baggins]

for the irish republic! Death to the british occupiers! Long live a united ireland!

free palestine!

free ireland!

[Marxist]

World struggle!

[Dóchas]

free palestine!

free ireland!




World struggle!


thanks for the deep input. :rolleyes:

back to the actual discussion. do you think this will force britain to put troops back on the streets of Northern Ireland or will they just monitor it closley from a distance?

the thought of having troops back scares me it will just spark off more violence :(

[Hessian Peel]

thanks for the deep input. :rolleyes:

back to the actual discussion. do you think this will force britain to put troops back on the streets of Northern Ireland or will they just monitor it closley from a distance?

the thought of having troops back scares me it will just spark off more violence :(

They're already re-deploying undercover military personnel to monitor and presumably murder Republican activists where possible.

[Marxist]

That wont help them much...

[Dóchas]

They're already re-deploying undercover military personnel to monitor and presumably murder Republican activists where possible.

ye i was about to say that but i wasnt completely sure. i have heard that this is only the begining of something more significant by the IRA (whatever group or splinter). what i dont get is why know of all times?

[Invader Zim]

They're already re-deploying undercover military personnel to monitor and presumably murder Republican activists where possible.

Doubtless.

[Hessian Peel]

ye i was about to say that but i wasnt completely sure. i have heard that this is only the begining of something more significant by the IRA (whatever group or splinter). what i dont get is why know of all times?

One can only speculate but Britain is currently tied down in two other occupations, with the occupation of Afghanistan in particular doing a lot of damage to their military capacity. Also, the economic slump may attract more people to the Republican position (and by that I don't necessarily mean the use of physical force but the politics of the Republican Movement in general).

[Crux]

Real IRA killings shock working class people

Danger of sectarianism shows need for socialist alternative
Socialist Party (CWI Ireland) Statement [Issued 9 March 2009], Belfast

At a time when the working class in Northern Ireland is suffering record job losses and deep cuts in pay and public services, the Real IRA’s shooting of soldiers and two workers in Antrim [and the killing of a police officer near Craigavon town, last night] raise the perspective of a possible return to sectarian conflict and outlines the utter reactionary role of such attacks.
The shooting dead of two British soldiers by the Real IRA (RIRA) at the entrance of Massereene army barracks, on the edge of Antrim town, shocked many people across Northern Ireland. Another two soldiers were shot on the scene but survived. Two pizza delivery drivers, one from Poland, were also gunned down – in the eyes of the RIRA they are “legitimate targets”.
Such incidents were commonplace in the seventies, eighties and early nineties, and would have had little impact on the wider political situation. This attack, however, is the first of its kind in over ten years, and was carried out by dissident republicans opposed to the peace process and the participation of Sinn Fein in the power-sharing Assembly Executive.
Over the past few years, dissident republican groups have stepped up their campaign of targeting PSNI (Police Service of N Ireland) and army personnel. They have launched fifteen attacks in the last six months. Last month, a 300lb car bomb was abandoned in Castlewellan. If it had reached its intended target, Ballykinlar Army Barracks, significant casualties could have resulted.
While there is little support in Catholic working class areas for a return to ‘war’ at this time, and the dissident groups are small and relatively isolated, there is little doubt that they are growing in strength and confidence.
Dissidents’ aims

The dissidents’ goal for the moment is to undermine the power-sharing institutions by provoking a reaction from unionists, in particular the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), in response to attacks on the police and army. Because of the sectarian nature of Sinn Fein’s politics, the party now finds itself in a very difficult position. The logic of Sinn Fein’s political trajectory over the last twenty years, and its current position in government, means that it must condemn the attack and call for co-operation with the police. Sinn Fein states that it is opposed to any return to severe state repression, of course, but its call for people to go to the PSNI with information on the dissidents will further undermine its credibility with young Catholics.
The DUP is calling for an increase in repression, including shoot-to-kill policies. DUP figures acknowledge that Sinn Fein has moved in its position on the police but put it under pressure by implying that Sinn Fein actually know who is involved in the dissident groups and could hand suspects up to the police, if it so chose, and by criticising its support for the PSNI as half-hearted.
An echo of the repressive policies of the state in the past was heard a few days before the Antrim attack, when it was revealed that the ‘Special Reconnaissance Regiment’ of the British Army has been deployed in Northern Ireland. The SRR was formed primarily from the ‘14th Intelligence Company’, a unit responsible for many shoot-to-kill incidents during the Troubles.
This limited return of the army to a combat role was a propaganda gain for the dissidents. The 32-County Sovereignty Committee (the political group linked to the Real IRA) claimed it as evidence that Britain has “failed to pacify Ireland” and that it is a major embarrassment to Sinn Fein. Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness [a former leader of the Provisional IRA] described the decision to deploy the SRR as “stupid and dangerous” but he has no power to stop this move.
If policing is devolved to Stormont [the seat of local power-sharing government] in the next one to two years, the storm generated by the future killing of a soldier or police officer will be even greater. And the intentions of the dissidents are clear - they do not have the resources for a campaign on the scale of the Provisional IRA campaign but they will continue with intermittent attacks in an attempt to destabilise the power-sharing Executive.
Opposition to Sinn Fein in its heartlands is growing. This opposition is not just based on its failure to deliver on the national question but on the correct perception that Sinn Fein is a right-wing party on social and economic issues. As the recession deepens, the potential for dissident groupings to garner more support will increase, especially among young people.
Dead-end of paramilitary campaigns

This Antrim attack comes at a time when working class people are facing a future of rising unemployment and deepening poverty. In such a context, an increase in united working class struggles, such as strikes and movements against health cutbacks, is on the cards. An attack, such as the Antrim killings, has the capacity to increase sectarian division and cut across working class unity in struggle.
While there is no support amongst the parties for a collapse of the power-sharing Executive, outside of economic policy there are deep divisions on every major issue which could lead to the Executive falling. It is more likely that the Executive will continue to be characterised by paralysis on a number of key issues, including attitudes to dissident attacks. And a major dispute on an unforeseen sectarian issue could explode at any time.
From the beginning of the peace process, in the 1990s, the Socialist Party argued that no lasting solution could be found on the basis of an uneasy compromise between sectarian politicians. The Socialist Party also argued however that the relative peace ushered in by the paramilitary ceasefires in 1994 would open up possibilities for the development of class politics and greater working class unity. This opportunity will not last forever.
The working class and young people cannot rely on the Assembly to deliver lasting peace, a decrease in sectarian division or improved living standards. The dead-end of paramilitary campaigns is no way out for young people in either community and only deepens division. Working class people need their own party: a mass party which attracts support by posing a socialist alternative to the right wing policies of the Assembly parties and the various paramilitary groups and seeks to overcome sectarian division not cement it. The inaction of the leadership of the trade union movement, by refusing to support the building of a mass working class party and by continuing to prop up the Assembly parties, only allows the sectarian forces intent in dragging us back into conflict more scope to grow.

[Hessian Peel]

Real IRA killings shock working class people

Danger of sectarianism shows need for socialist alternative
Socialist Party (CWI Ireland) Statement [Issued 9 March 2009], Belfast

At a time when the working class in Northern Ireland is suffering record job losses and deep cuts in pay and public services, the Real IRA’s shooting of soldiers and two workers in Antrim [and the killing of a police officer near Craigavon town, last night] raise the perspective of a possible return to sectarian conflict and outlines the utter reactionary role of such attacks.
The shooting dead of two British soldiers by the Real IRA (RIRA) at the entrance of Massereene army barracks, on the edge of Antrim town, shocked many people across Northern Ireland. Another two soldiers were shot on the scene but survived. Two pizza delivery drivers, one from Poland, were also gunned down – in the eyes of the RIRA they are “legitimate targets”.
Such incidents were commonplace in the seventies, eighties and early nineties, and would have had little impact on the wider political situation. This attack, however, is the first of its kind in over ten years, and was carried out by dissident republicans opposed to the peace process and the participation of Sinn Fein in the power-sharing Assembly Executive.
Over the past few years, dissident republican groups have stepped up their campaign of targeting PSNI (Police Service of N Ireland) and army personnel. They have launched fifteen attacks in the last six months. Last month, a 300lb car bomb was abandoned in Castlewellan. If it had reached its intended target, Ballykinlar Army Barracks, significant casualties could have resulted.
While there is little support in Catholic working class areas for a return to ‘war’ at this time, and the dissident groups are small and relatively isolated, there is little doubt that they are growing in strength and confidence.
Dissidents’ aims

The dissidents’ goal for the moment is to undermine the power-sharing institutions by provoking a reaction from unionists, in particular the Democratic Unionist Party (DUP), in response to attacks on the police and army. Because of the sectarian nature of Sinn Fein’s politics, the party now finds itself in a very difficult position. The logic of Sinn Fein’s political trajectory over the last twenty years, and its current position in government, means that it must condemn the attack and call for co-operation with the police. Sinn Fein states that it is opposed to any return to severe state repression, of course, but its call for people to go to the PSNI with information on the dissidents will further undermine its credibility with young Catholics.
The DUP is calling for an increase in repression, including shoot-to-kill policies. DUP figures acknowledge that Sinn Fein has moved in its position on the police but put it under pressure by implying that Sinn Fein actually know who is involved in the dissident groups and could hand suspects up to the police, if it so chose, and by criticising its support for the PSNI as half-hearted.
An echo of the repressive policies of the state in the past was heard a few days before the Antrim attack, when it was revealed that the ‘Special Reconnaissance Regiment’ of the British Army has been deployed in Northern Ireland. The SRR was formed primarily from the ‘14th Intelligence Company’, a unit responsible for many shoot-to-kill incidents during the Troubles.
This limited return of the army to a combat role was a propaganda gain for the dissidents. The 32-County Sovereignty Committee (the political group linked to the Real IRA) claimed it as evidence that Britain has “failed to pacify Ireland” and that it is a major embarrassment to Sinn Fein. Deputy First Minister Martin McGuinness [a former leader of the Provisional IRA] described the decision to deploy the SRR as “stupid and dangerous” but he has no power to stop this move.
If policing is devolved to Stormont [the seat of local power-sharing government] in the next one to two years, the storm generated by the future killing of a soldier or police officer will be even greater. And the intentions of the dissidents are clear - they do not have the resources for a campaign on the scale of the Provisional IRA campaign but they will continue with intermittent attacks in an attempt to destabilise the power-sharing Executive.
Opposition to Sinn Fein in its heartlands is growing. This opposition is not just based on its failure to deliver on the national question but on the correct perception that Sinn Fein is a right-wing party on social and economic issues. As the recession deepens, the potential for dissident groupings to garner more support will increase, especially among young people.
Dead-end of paramilitary campaigns

This Antrim attack comes at a time when working class people are facing a future of rising unemployment and deepening poverty. In such a context, an increase in united working class struggles, such as strikes and movements against health cutbacks, is on the cards. An attack, such as the Antrim killings, has the capacity to increase sectarian division and cut across working class unity in struggle.
While there is no support amongst the parties for a collapse of the power-sharing Executive, outside of economic policy there are deep divisions on every major issue which could lead to the Executive falling. It is more likely that the Executive will continue to be characterised by paralysis on a number of key issues, including attitudes to dissident attacks. And a major dispute on an unforeseen sectarian issue could explode at any time.
From the beginning of the peace process, in the 1990s, the Socialist Party argued that no lasting solution could be found on the basis of an uneasy compromise between sectarian politicians. The Socialist Party also argued however that the relative peace ushered in by the paramilitary ceasefires in 1994 would open up possibilities for the development of class politics and greater working class unity. This opportunity will not last forever.
The working class and young people cannot rely on the Assembly to deliver lasting peace, a decrease in sectarian division or improved living standards. The dead-end of paramilitary campaigns is no way out for young people in either community and only deepens division. Working class people need their own party: a mass party which attracts support by posing a socialist alternative to the right wing policies of the Assembly parties and the various paramilitary groups and seeks to overcome sectarian division not cement it. The inaction of the leadership of the trade union movement, by refusing to support the building of a mass working class party and by continuing to prop up the Assembly parties, only allows the sectarian forces intent in dragging us back into conflict more scope to grow.

That statement, with a few modifications, could have been from any of the mainstream political parties in Ireland or Britain. What will calling Republicans dissidents, reactionary and anti-working class achieve? Nothing. The SP's stance on the national question remains an absolute joke.

[Pogue]

The papers seem to misunderstand the soldiers. Its all 'our brave lads, heroes, innocent victims murdered'. These are guys in an army, they have guns, they are trained to use them and they are off to Afghanistan to kill people. I don't support this attack but BA soldiers are trained to do the excact same thing.

On the other hand though, fuck the CIRA, RIRA, etc bollocks. They have nothing productive to offer the north, and this was a pointless attack.

[Pogue]

I'd maintain that the liberation of Irish workers would come from united working class action, a mass movement of workers encompassing all groups of society internationally, with no nationalism or state stage. That doesn't involve trying to provoke a return to secrtarian violence or shooting soldiers. I think we must also remember however the fact that the British Army trains soldiers to fight and kill as they do. More have died in iraq & Afghanistan than in the Troubles. I'm against anyone who trains working class people to kill working class people in the name of a nation or the ruling class.

[Devrim]

there is NO nationalist solution for working class people .. it is divisive and ultimately ends up benefitting the ruling classes .. i wonder why republican violence appears just as we are about to enter a period of a general strike in ireland and mass class struggle in the UK ..

I agree with you that there is no nationalist solution for the working class, and that the level of class struggle is showing a tendency to rise, not only in the UK but also internationally.

Of course, it could be that these groups are in all likelihood infiltrated to the core by the British state, and probably the Irish state too. Having seen how riddled with spies and agents republican groups have been in the past that in itself would be something to be expected. Of course it is possible that the British and/or Irish states have organised this.

Anybody who would deny that the British state is not vicious enough to murder its own soldiers is very naive indeed.

However, this is not the only possibility. There was an article in our press that touched upon a similar type of situation last year. Basically, it had got to the point where every time that the level of class struggle increased, the headscarf issue was brought out:


So to come to the situation here in Turkey today, there are crucial lessons to be learnt from the events in Lebanon, and Palestine. One subject that often comes up in discussions that we have with militant workers is why, whenever the working class tries to assert itself, certain issues, the most common of which is headscarves come to the fore. Everybody knows what we mean. As soon as a strike starts, some event seems to bring the headscarf issue or the AKP closure case back onto the front pages.

Many people have suggested to us that it is something that is created by the media, and the parliamentary parties with the aim of diverting the working class from struggle.
While we are not denying that they are capable of doing things like this, we don’t believe that this is how the dynamic works.

Similar to the events in Lebanon, and Israel, ‘secularist faction’ feels that when the workers are moving, the government is weak, and that they can take advantage of this weakness. Thankfully, it is nowhere as bad as it is in those countries. Workers are not shooting each other on the street in the name of different bourgeois groups…yet.

Both of the main antagonists attempt to appeal to the working class. The ‘secularists’ play up the danger of Sheriat, whilst the ‘Islamicists’ talk about the need for democracy. Both of these lines are designed to appeal to workers. More importantly these arguments are designed to appeal to workers at the same time as the state is orchestrating huge attacks like the new pensions law against the working class.


I hope that you can see the similarities with the situation here.

That actions like this have nothing at all to offer the working class, other than a return to sectarianism and war, we are completly agreed.

Devrim

[Charles Xavier]

The irony of a vanguardist telling the people here what is and is not acceptable for revolutionary leftists is not lost on me. It's neither your place nor anybody's place here to define what does and does not constitute appropriate views for a revolutionary leftist. I do not agree with Scaeme but telling people to "get out" or that they aren't appropriate for the revolutionary left isn't what we need to be doing.

Defending the Occupation of Iraq gets you to the restricted zone why wouldn't defending the occupation of Ireland? Defending US imperialism and saying poor US troops are getting killed by savage Iraqi Terrorists will get you to the restricted zone but saying poor British troops are getting killed by savage Irish terrorists doesn't?

You cannot be a revolutionary leftist and defend Imperialism the two are completely contradictory.

I fail to see your Irony, and I fail to see how an idea of a vanguard party has anything remotely to do with the thread topic or what I was discussing, merely as a distracting point to derail discussion. Typical of peoples whos arguments fail bring up something completely irrelevant and try to bait someone.

[Crux]

That statement, with a few modifications, could have been from any of the mainstream political parties in Ireland or Britain. What will calling Republicans dissidents, reactionary and anti-working class achieve? Nothing. The SP's stance on the national question remains an absolute joke.
http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2009/03/pdf110101.pdf
Goes slightly more in depth. You might also want to consider "Marxists opposes Individual terrorism" http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1911/11/tia09.htm

[Hessian Peel]

http://www.socialistworld.net/eng/2009/03/pdf110101.pdf
Goes slightly more in depth. You might also want to consider "Marxists opposes Individual terrorism" http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1911/11/tia09.htm


http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/7561/trotsky1.jpg

[Marxist]

Well yes , nationalism is an enemy of leftism , but if all nations won´t self-determinate there will always be a place for a fascist dictator to move in and use the existing unequal situation...

[Hessian Peel]

éirígí response to recent events


10/03/09

In response to repeated requests for éirígí to clarify its position with regard to recent events, spokesperson Breandán Mac Cionnaith today commented on the attacks upon the British Army and PSNI.


"I would like to take this opportunity to restate éirígí's view of how British rule in Ireland should be challenged at this time. I would also take this opportunity to outline éirígí's position with regard to the events of recent days.


"éirígí is an open, independent, democratic political party which is not aligned to, or supportive of, any armed organisation.


"It is éirígí's position that the British occupation is the underlying cause of the ongoing conflict in Ireland. Our history demonstrates that until that underlying cause is addressed that conflict will continue indefinitely.


"éirígí unequivocally supports the right of Irish people to oppose British rule in Ireland.


"éirígí believes that British interference in Ireland can best be challenged at this time through the building of an all-Ireland popular movement in support of national reunification and independence.


"When éirígí was founded we asserted our belief that a Democratic Socialist Republic can only be established and sustained through the collective action of a progressive social movement incorporating local communities, organised labour, cultural organisations, campaigns groups, and political parties. We believe that the creation of such a popular movement represents the best potential to create the conditions which will make British rule and capitalist exploitation in Ireland untenable.


"Over the course of the last two and a half years éirígí has organised countless public events aimed at building public opposition to British rule and imperialism in Ireland. éirígí's protest in opposition to the controversial RIR parade in Belfast in November past is an example of just one such event.


"While supporting the right of any people to defend themselves from imperial aggression éirígí does not believe that the conditions exist at this time for a successful armed struggle against the British occupation.


"As can be seen from the recent attacks on Britain's armed forces it is clear that not all republicans agree on how the British occupation should be resisted at this time. Those who carried out those attacks are best placed to explain their own rationale.


"As with all of the countless and avoidable deaths that have occurred throughout the centuries of British interference in Ireland, the ultimate political responsibility for these most recent deaths lies with the British government and wider British establishment."


http://www.eirigi.org/latest/latest100309_2.html

[Marxist]

Did IRSP/INLA make any statement?

[Hessian Peel]

Did IRSP/INLA make any statement?

Not that I'm aware of comrade.

[Andropov]

Did IRSP/INLA make any statement?

Not yet comrade.
I will post it up once its released.

[Guerrilla22]

Turns out it wasn't the pizza guy afterall.

[PeaderO'Donnell]

Finaly, me condeming a bunch of nationalist thugs that have murdered hundreds of innocent civilians and hold no socialist ideals whatsoever, does not conflict upon leftism. If I was saying that Marx was totaly deluded or something then you'd have a fair point
I am most certainly expecting an apology!

Have you read what Marx and Engels wrote on the Irish question?

And for your information a look at the comments made by members of the 32 csm on Indiemedia Ireland and other forums shows that it would seem that the majiority of them do indeed hold socialist principles....I am sure that goes for the volunteers in the Real IRA aswell.

I dont think the killing of the unfortunate Poles was excusable but at least try to LEARN something about Irish history and politics before you start your Sky News rant.

[PRC-UTE]

Have you read what Marx and Engels wrote on the Irish question?

it's useful to read over, definitely. it was very different than the analysis comrades have here- very different. Lenin recognised that the Unionist/Loyalist factions represented the bourgeoisie.

In Lenin's time, many republicans were from the Catholic bourgeois. Today that is hardly the case at all.



And for your information a look at the comments made by members of the 32 csm on Indiemedia Ireland and other forums shows that it would seem that the majiority of them do indeed hold socialist principles....I am sure that goes for the volunteers in the Real IRA aswell.

they don't. I know some 32s members intimately, and very few within that group are socialist at all, if they could even define the term. there are exceptions of course, but the vast majority arne't.