1973 reffendum in Northern Ireland

[Bitter Ashes]

Wondering if anyone could help me out here because I'm trying to do some research for my own personal reasons mainly.
I wont try hide that I'm very much anti IRA, although I'm trying to establish how much of that opinion I've formed for justified reasons and how much may be the result of propaganda and chinese whispers.
The thing that's been getting my hackles up is that I was always taught that Northern Ireland was given regular refferendums about whether they wanted to remain part of the United Kingdom, or whether they'd rather become part of the Republic of Ireland. Since, this is something I have never had challenged, I've never questioned it. However, I have recently been trying to find information about these "regular" refferendums and I've only actualy been able to find anythign out about one of them, which was in 1973, a year after Bloody Sunday. Suprisingly, it wasnt just a slim win by loyalists, but an overwhelming 98.9%, despite Bloody Sunday the year before and a reasonably good turnout. With this in mind, I find any of the actions of the IRA to be unjustified, as it points towards them bieng the aggressors and trying to force an unwelcome change upon the people of Northern Ireland, especially when it's been coupled with violence against civilians both in Ireland and in England.
So, the thing I wanted to know is whether there's been any more refferendums since, or any unofficial polls taken, like by Yougov or something and how they point 36 years later. An indication that Northern Ireland is bieng held by the UK against its will, would change my mind somewhat.

[Magdalen]

I would hardly call 57% of the 1973 electorate impressive. In fact, the 41% boycott of the vote is probably more so. The vast majority of republicans in 1973 were not registered to vote, and due to the antiquated electoral rules, many loyalists in fact had more than one vote. (Business-owners were allowed one vote for themselves and one for their business, and an overwhelming majority of businessmen were loyalists.)

[Dóchas]

its good to see gerrymandering alive and well eh? ;)

[Cumannach]

The question is irrelevant. The only relevant referendum is an all-Ireland referendum. You don't seem to understand the situation.

[Dóchas]

an all ireland referendum on what?

[Bitter Ashes]

The question is irrelevant. The only relevant referendum is an all-Ireland referendum. You don't seem to understand the situation.
Maybe I dont. Surely the fate of the country, Northern Ireland, should not be left to the votes of a totaly different country, The Republic of Ireland. I know they're both on the same landmass, but I really dont see why a foreign power. the Republic, should have a say about the lives of British citizens.
So. can you explain the situation please? :blushing:

[Dóchas]

Maybe I dont. Surely the fate of the country, Northern Ireland, should not be left to the votes of a totaly different country, The Republic of Ireland. I know they're both on the same landmass, but I really dont see why a foreign power. the Republic, should have a say about the lives of British citizens.
So. can you explain the situation please? :blushing:

the thing is some people dont view the republic as a foreign power and visa versa its a lot more complicated than you are making it out to be.

[Bitter Ashes]

I would hardly call 57% of the 1973 electorate impressive. In fact, the 41% boycott of the vote is probably more so. The vast majority of republicans in 1973 were not registered to vote, and due to the antiquated electoral rules, many loyalists in fact had more than one vote. (Business-owners were allowed one vote for themselves and one for their business, and an overwhelming majority of businessmen were loyalists.)
The more than one vote thing is awful! I had no idea that had happened.
Still 57% turnout is pretty normal for a UK refferendum. These are all the referendum turnouts I could find:
-64.5% for a refferendum in 1975 about whether the UK should stay in the EU
-63.8% for a refferendum in 1979 about whether there should be a Scottish assembly
-58.8% for a reffendum on the same year on the same subject but for Wales instead
-60.4% in 1997 about having a Scottish parliment
-50.1% in 1997 about having a Welsh assembly
-34.1% in 1998 about whether London should have a mayor
-81.1% in 1998 regarding the Belfast Agreement
-47.7% in 2004 about devolving North East England

So, seems about average to me. Still, the thing with two votes for the bourgeois is pretty awful!

[Dóchas]

it used to be if you owned a house that you could vote and there were obviously more unionist households than nationalist and in the areas that there were nationalist housing estates the votes were rigged in unionist favour ie. gerrymandering



-64.5% for a refferendum in 1975 about whether the UK should stay in the EU
-63.8% for a refferendum in 1979 about whether there should be a Scottish assembly
-58.8% for a reffendum on the same year on the same subject but for Wales instead
-60.4% in 1997 about having a Scottish parliment
-50.1% in 1997 about having a Welsh assembly
-34.1% in 1998 about whether London should have a mayor
-81.1% in 1998 regarding the Belfast Agreement
-47.7% in 2004 about devolving North East England


they dont really have anyhting to do with Northern Ireland do they? :confused:

[Bitter Ashes]

Well, they're mostly to do with soverignity of the components of the UK. Not sure what to say really.
I dont think I understand the whole gerrymandering thing though. If you live somewhere, why shouldnt you get a vote? :confused:

[Pogue]

Well, they're mostly to do with soverignity of the components of the UK. Not sure what to say really.
I dont think I understand the whole gerrymandering thing though. If you live somewhere, why shouldnt you get a vote? :confused:

to be honest you seem a bit clueless, i suggest reading up on irish history, especially the troubles

[Dóchas]

Well, they're mostly to do with soverignity of the components of the UK. Not sure what to say really.
I dont think I understand the whole gerrymandering thing though. If you live somewhere, why shouldnt you get a vote? :confused:

they voted but they werent counted because the unionists (who wanted NI to stay with UK) were the more powerful entity in NI at the time so they influenced voting dramatically in their favour so that NI would remain under the contituency of the UK. the unionist who were in power put laws in place like the votes depending on the number of houses you own. i really dont know that much about it but id say if you ask Ulster Socialist, Coggy or PRC-UTE you will get a better description and explanation

[ComradeOm]

Suprisingly, it wasnt just a slim win by loyalists, but an overwhelming 98.9%, despite Bloody Sunday the year before and a reasonably good turnoutYou don't find this staggeringly high percentage to be at all suspicious? Not even considering that this was when the PIRA was at the height of its popularity and internment was incredibly unpopular?

Next you'll be telling me that you believe that Saddam Hussein enjoyed the support of 100% of the Iraqi population. They had referendums to prove it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2331951.stm) you know :nods:


So, the thing I wanted to know is whether there's been any more refferendums since, or any unofficial polls taken, like by Yougov or something and how they point 36 years laterOf course. They've consistently shown a strong correlation between national identification and religious identity. Here's one from 1994 (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/research/nisas/rep5c2.htm#preferences) and 1999 (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/1999/Community_Relations/NINATID.html#religion). According to this survey (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/research/nisas/rep5c2.htm#constitutional) a consistent 25-30% of the population has favoured reunification (and don't pretend its anything else) with Ireland since the 1980s


I dont think I understand the whole gerrymandering thing though. If you live somewhere, why shouldnt you get a vote?How about the fact that these Catholics were living in a Protestant state and, as second class citizens, were not expected to participate in a Protestant parliament (to paraphrase 'Sir' James Craig). I'm not sure you grasp the degree to which the Catholic community was discriminated against by 'its' government

This thorough work (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/discrimination/whyte.htm#chap1) explores the discrimination inherent in the Unionist regime from the 1920s. Needless to say it was significant, repressive, and a major contributing factor to the eventual outbreak of violence

[Bitter Ashes]

You don't find this staggeringly high percentage to be at all suspicious? Not even considering that this was when the PIRA was at the height of its popularity and internment was incredibly unpopular?

Next you'll be telling me that you believe that Saddam Hussein enjoyed the support of 100% of the Iraqi population. They had referendums to prove it (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2331951.stm) you know :nods:

Of course. They've consistently shown a strong correlation between national identification and religious identity. Here's one from 1994 (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/research/nisas/rep5c2.htm#preferences) and 1999 (http://www.ark.ac.uk/nilt/1999/Community_Relations/NINATID.html#religion). According to this survey (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/othelem/research/nisas/rep5c2.htm#constitutional) a consistent 25-30% of the population has favoured reunification (and don't pretend its anything else) with Ireland since the 1980s

How about the fact that these Catholics were living in a Protestant state and, as second class citizens, were not expected to participate in a Protestant parliament (to paraphrase 'Sir' James Craig). I'm not sure you grasp the degree to which the Catholic community was discriminated against by 'its' government

This thorough work (http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/issues/discrimination/whyte.htm#chap1) explores the discrimination inherent in the Unionist regime from the 1920s. Needless to say it was significant, repressive, and a major contributing factor to the eventual outbreak of violence
Thanks for the surveys. That was exactly what I was looking for. Why would I "pretend it's anything else" anyway? It's only a name.
I'm still not sure what that lousy treatment of the natives has to do with me asking what's wrong with having a vote for people who live in the country regardless of which way they want to pray.
Also, I'd hardly compare Harold Wilson to Saddam Hussein.
I'm going to deliberatly avoid discussing the violence for now though.

[Mindtoaster]

The main problem with this is that Northern Ireland is not a legitimate country, no matter the vote. Its an occupied section of a single nation.

The unionists are a tiny minority on Ireland. Ireland belongs to the Irish.

[PRC-UTE]

the six county state was just something drawn on a map by some bureaucrats in London. in places it even runs through family homes lol. it was not a creation of the Irish people, let alone its working class and can't be accepted as legitimate.

you especially can't fall back on the democracy argument: this was a state founded by violating nearly all the cardinal principles of democracy like consent of the governed. at least 1/3 of the population refused to recognise it and were subjected to pogroms and ethnic clensing in some areas. the founding of the free state and norn iron was nothing less than a counter revolution.

[ComradeOm]

I'm still not sure what that lousy treatment of the natives has to do with me asking what's wrong with having a vote for people who live in the country regardless of which way they want to prayBecause the disenfranchisement of Catholics was one of many ways in which they received 'lousy treatment'. In order to maintain their position of superiority and dominance (originally granted by the London government) the Unionist regime maintained a campaign of hostility and systematic election-rigging to the 'Protestant parliament'. If Catholics were not to be granted equal social or economic rights then there was no possibility of them being afforded equal political rights


Also, I'd hardly compare Harold Wilson to Saddam HusseinIn terms of gassing the Kurds there is little comparison. In terms of overseeing the use of fraudulent referendums to strengthen political positions... well the 99% says it all

[Bitter Ashes]

The main problem with this is that Northern Ireland is not a legitimate country, no matter the vote. Its an occupied section of a single nation.

The unionists are a tiny minority on Ireland. Ireland belongs to the Irish.
Surely Northern Ireland is as much of a legitimate nation as Palestine, North Vietnam, North Korea or the Netherlands. All of those countries split off from thier parent countries and declared thier own alliegeances. They have all had outside help in breaking away and also to stop them bieng retaken by thier mother country.

[Bitter Ashes]

And I'm freely admitting that the Irish were let down by the British in the past. Why does everyone think I'm just ignoring that? I'll tell you what though, we're not the only ones. I believe the Americans had even more oppressive practices against the Irish once upon a time. I didnt see the IRA putting bombs in American shopping centres though.
What cannot be argued is that, thanks to those polls, the people in Northern Ireland that want to seperate from the UK are the majority. Unless that changes, there is no way I could possibly support anything that's going to force a majority of people to deported against thier will. The unionists have been there for generations and have as much claim to that land as the Australian and American colonists have over thier land, a vote and the right to not be hunted down by the natives.

[Dóchas]

Surely Northern Ireland is as much of a legitimate nation as Palestine, North Vietnam, North Korea or the Netherlands. All of those countries split off from thier parent countries and declared thier own alliegeances. They have all had outside help in breaking away and also to stop them bieng retaken by thier mother country.

but they chose to split away, Northern Ireland was taken from the Irish

[Dóchas]

I believe the Americans had even more oppressive practices against the Irish once upon a time. I didnt see the IRA putting bombs in American shopping centres though.



thats true but they stopped, its as easy as that, when it come to british rule over northern ireland they havent stopped oppressing the native irish so their actions are justified to a degree


The unionists have been there for generations and have as much claim to that land as the Australian and American colonists have over thier land, a vote and the right to not be hunted down by the natives.

but who has been there longer? the native irish, so what if the unionists have been there for generations, tough shit. that is a terrible arguement and may i warn you of the wave of shit you got youself into there

[Pogue]

And I'm freely admitting that the Irish were let down by the British in the past. Why does everyone think I'm just ignoring that? I'll tell you what though, we're not the only ones. I believe the Americans had even more oppressive practices against the Irish once upon a time. I didnt see the IRA putting bombs in American shopping centres though.
What cannot be argued is that, thanks to those polls, the people in Northern Ireland that want to seperate from the UK are the majority. Unless that changes, there is no way I could possibly support anything that's going to force a majority of people to deported against thier will. The unionists have been there for generations and have as much claim to that land as the Australian and American colonists have over thier land, a vote and the right to not be hunted down by the natives.

No one wants to deport unionists. The same way no one on here who supports Palestine wants Jews to be deported from the Palestine region. We just want the state and occupying force to go, in both cases. The British state is not the same as British/Protestant/Unionist people, same way Israeli state is not the same as Jewish/Israeli people.

[Pogue]

And furthermore the fact still remains that it was the Irish who lived htere. There is nothing wrong with immigration or moving to another country but you can't do it by sending in soldiers and tanks and declaring this land now belongs to you. The fact is, it wasn't a people moving there through normal immigration, it was an occupying force moving there and taking away all democratic processes from the people and brutally oppresing them.

[PRC-UTE]

And I'm freely admitting that the Irish were let down by the British in the past. Why does everyone think I'm just ignoring that? I'll tell you what though, we're not the only ones. I believe the Americans had even more oppressive practices against the Irish once upon a time. I didnt see the IRA putting bombs in American shopping centres though.

there were however many many instances of violence between Irish immigrants and the KKK/nativists in American cities.



What cannot be argued is that, thanks to those polls, the people in Northern Ireland that want to seperate from the UK are the majority. Unless that changes, there is no way I could possibly support anything that's going to force a majority of people to deported against thier will.

by this logic, you could cut England (or any modern nation) up into hundreds of little ethnic statelets. you could create small Polish and Chinese states even within Ireland :lol:

in general I'm not too fond of ethnic nationalism. the protestant and catholic Irish can live side by side in peace, granted that the state is nonsectarian, secular and treats both communities equally.



The unionists have been there for generations and have as much claim to that land as the Australian and American colonists have over thier land, a vote and the right to not be hunted down by the natives.

of course, republicans don't want to hunt down unionists and steal their land. I know HLVS already addressed this, but its worth repeating.

[BobKKKindle$]

Unless that changes, there is no way I could possibly support anything that's going to force a majority of people to deported against thier willNo one is suggesting that those who want to maintain the division of the Irish nation and the occupation of northern Ireland at the hands of the British state would be deported or subject to any form of unfair treatment in the event of unification, and this is also true of the situation in Palestine, in that all socialists who support the struggle against Israel acknowledge that Jewish people should be allowed to live in an eventual Palestinian state with exactly the same rights as the members of any other ethnic or religious group, as anything but this would mean retaining the discriminatory policies that have been put in place by Israel. By focusing on the results of referenda on the status of northern Ireland, however, you have adopted a liberal position on the issue, not only because you have ignored the ways in which Protestants have been privileged and given greater political influence at the expense of those who support a united Ireland, but also because considering any issue solely from an electoral perspective in terms of which option is favored by the minority neglects the role of class, which, as socialists, should be our first concern. It is entirely possible for a majority to support national division for reactionary reasons - a section of the Bolivian bourgeoisie in Santa Cruz and two other eastern states – the areas where gas, oil, precious woods and soya plantations are located - is currently fighting for secession with the support of the United States in order to damage the progressive government and strengthen the imperialist exploitation of Bolivia. In this scenario, socialists should oppose secession, even if it does have the support of a majority of the population in these provinces, because we stand first and foremost for the interests of the Bolivian and international working class, and secession would damage that class. In the case of Ireland, the ongoing division of what should be a unified state constitutes the most enduring manifestation of British imperialism and obstructs class struggle within both Ireland and Britain, and so, even if, by means of various discriminatory devices, or even in the absence of these devices, a majority in northern Ireland wants to maintain division, we would still campaign for a unified state, and support all struggles intended to achieve that goal.

A more troubling case of a local majority supporting secession:

"This is Orania, a town populated exclusively by white Afrikaners, who have withdrawn from the modern South Africa, and are now trying to build their own, racially pure homeland in this harsh landscape"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2500435.stm


Surely Northern Ireland is as much of a legitimate nation as Palestine, North Vietnam, North Korea or the Netherlands.Actually, the inhabitants of North Vietnam and the DPRK always identified/identify as Vietnamese and Korean respectively, because they were/are conscious of the fact that their countries had been unjustly divided by the imperialist powers in pursuit of their own political and economic ends.


by this logic, you could cut England (or any modern nation) up into hundreds of little ethnic statelets. you could create small Polish and Chinese states even within IrelandOr, taken to its extreme, an individual could demand the right to independence within their own house.

[Bitter Ashes]

okay. Different question.
Does anyone have any results of surverys held in The Republic of Ireland about whether they want the 6 counties to join thier country?

[Dóchas]

id imagine that an extreme majority would vote yes in that one. i doubt they even bother conducting such a survey

[Sam_b]

it wasnt just a slim win by loyalists, but an overwhelming 98.9%

Wasn't that due to a republican boycott of the referendum? At least I think it was.

However, none of these referendums are legitimate because they excluded vast swathes of the populace. The only way it could be legitimate is if the referendum included the Republic of Ireland, as the six counties was land stolen from them.

[Bitter Ashes]

Out of curiosity too, if the six counties declared total independance from both nations, would there be an issue? Assuming that the British goverment respected it too of course. Trying to gauge the Republican response.

[Dóchas]

i dont think they would be able to survive independantly but i guess the republic and britain would allow it anyway

[Boy Named Crow]

Just in response to a number of people who posted to Scaeme along the lines of this:

"you dont seem to have a clue... etc etc"

What forum do you think you're in? This is called Learning for a reason and a valid question was posted by someone who admitted to not knowing all the facts and that they were open to correction. Rather than post one line responses informing them of their lack of knowledge - why not answer the questions and help someone form their own opinions?

Now a question from me:

Going with the idea of an Northern Ireland, independent of both the Republic and The Union. Even if given the ok by the Rep and Union, would the people ofNorthern Ireland want that?

I ask because we obviously have one group that wants to join Ireland (rep) and another that wants to remain part of the union. In a hypothetical world in which NI could survive on its own - would that be something both sides would accept? :confused:

[Dóchas]

Just in response to a number of people who posted to Scaeme along the lines of this:

"you dont seem to have a clue... etc etc"

What forum do you think you're in? This is called Learning for a reason and a valid question was posted by someone who admitted to not knowing all the facts and that they were open to correction. Rather than post one line responses informing them of their lack of knowledge - why not answer the questions and help someone form their own opinions?

Now a question from me:

Going with the idea of an Northern Ireland, independent of both the Republic and The Union. Even if given the ok by the Rep and Union, would the people ofNorthern Ireland want that?

I ask because we obviously have one group that wants to join Ireland (rep) and another that wants to remain part of the union. In a hypothetical world in which NI could survive on its own - would that be something both sides would accept? :confused:

i really doubt that either side is willing to give up a battle they have been fighting for hundreds of years. i guess boths sides would attempt to take power once ties were cut from the republic and britain

[PRC-UTE]

okay. Different question.
Does anyone have any results of surverys held in The Republic of Ireland about whether they want the 6 counties to join thier country?

the last one I recall the vast majority of people favoured reunification. But it wasn't at the top of their list of priorities. I can try and find that for you later if you want.

[Trystan]

What cannot be argued is that, thanks to those polls, the people in Northern Ireland that want to seperate from the UK are the majority

Actually I think the majority of people in Ulster would vote for unification with the Republic:

http://www.ireland-map.co.uk/maps/map-of-ulster.gif

[Boy Named Crow]

i really doubt that either side is willing to give up a battle they have been fighting for hundreds of years. i guess boths sides would attempt to take power once ties were cut from the republic and britain

Now you see that brings up a whole new debate...

If one of the primary issues is resolved - i.e. NI becomes independent of both Republic and Union - if fighting were to continue, that would only be for the cause of POWER not JUSTICE.

I expect that any government would have to be a unified party of both sides if it were to be in any way successful. But even then I would say violence would continue from a minority that aren't happy with the out-come.

[Bitter Ashes]

Now you see that brings up a whole new debate...

If one of the primary issues is resolved - i.e. NI becomes independent of both Republic and Union - if fighting were to continue, that would only be for the cause of POWER not JUSTICE.

I expect that any government would have to be a unified party of both sides if it were to be in any way successful. But even then I would say violence would continue from a minority that aren't happy with the out-come.
Or even better... what if that goverment asked for international support, for example, from England, to deal with that violent minority? We end up back at square one - The majority of the UK and Northern Ireland believing they're helping to protest Northern Irish citizens and the United States and Republic of Ireland believing that it's an occupation of an enemy territory.

[Boy Named Crow]

Or even better... what if that goverment asked for international support, for example, from England, to deal with that violent majority? We end up back at square one - The majority of the UK and Northern Ireland believing they're helping to protest Northern Irish citizens and the United States and Republic of Ireland believing that it's an occupation of an enemy territory.

:laugh: that would be one of the most tragi-comic outcomes EVER! And yet entirely plausible when considering Britain's ability to have everything it touches turn to shite!

Seriously - at that point I would have to sit back and shake my head with disbelief at the absurdity.

This is ofcourse all hypothetical. It could all work out perfectly... :blushing:

[Cumannach]

Or even better... what if that goverment asked for international support, for example, from England, to deal with that violent minority? We end up back at square one - The majority of the UK and Northern Ireland believing they're helping to protest Northern Irish citizens and the United States and Republic of Ireland believing that it's an occupation of an enemy territory.

are you not restricted yet?

[Boy Named Crow]

are you not restricted yet?

I'm sorry - I thought we were allowed discuss ideas, theories and hypotheticals quite openly on this board?

Last time I checked.....

I don't really see what your problem is? Scaeme was pointing out the possibilty that our hypothetical situation or NI Independence could backfire and result in the situation going back to square one. This would be bad.

Kindly explain your problem with this comment? Your opinions ON TOPIC are equally valid and welcome if you want to share them?

[ComradeOm]

okay. Different question.
Does anyone have any results of surverys held in The Republic of Ireland about whether they want the 6 counties to join thier country?The Guardian did a poll a few years back. The big talking point was that less than 50% of the English population would object to a United Ireland but it also mentioned that upwards of 85% of the Republic's population were also in favour. Unfortunately a quick google search failed to turn it up but AFAIK the percentage points have been in that region (ie, an overwhelming majority) since polling began. Reunification is also, nominally at least, a stated goal of every major Irish political party (with the possible exception of the PDs and Greens)

Edit: Aha, found it here (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2001/aug/21/northernireland.northernireland1). The figures are even more dramatic than I recall - only 41% of Britons (no English) support NI remaining in the Union while 86% in the Republic favoured unification.

[Reuben]

Interesting, I have always had the perception that any emotioal attachment to Northern Ireland is incredibly weak in England. Ironically , I think that over here the unionist cause is undermined by anti-irish racism. You often here sentiments alng the lines of 'why not get all these crazy paddy's out of our hair'.

[Reuben]

The 1999 survey posted earlier on this thread is prety interesting. It shows that 45% per cent of Northern Irish people consider themselves British, including a slim majority of people who professto have no religion. Does this not demonstrate that there are genuinely two national communities in Northern Ireland, as opposed those who do not consider themselves Irish simply representing a 'sectarian grouping' as suggested in another thread.

[Dóchas]

Now you see that brings up a whole new debate...

If one of the primary issues is resolved - i.e. NI becomes independent of both Republic and Union - if fighting were to continue, that would only be for the cause of POWER not JUSTICE.

I expect that any government would have to be a unified party of both sides if it were to be in any way successful. But even then I would say violence would continue from a minority that aren't happy with the out-come.

but do you really see that coming? like come on they are hardly just gonna pack up and call it a day after hundreds of years of conflict and then proceed to live in harmony as if nothing happened. i know you said this was a hypothetical situation but there are limits.

[Bitter Ashes]

but do you really see that coming? like come on they are hardly just gonna pack up and call it a day after hundreds of years of conflict and then proceed to live in harmony as if nothing happened. i know you said this was a hypothetical situation but there are limits.
So... The Republic of Ireland would invade? :confused:

[Dóchas]

So... The Republic of Ireland would invade? :confused:

with what exactly? :rolleyes: and where did you find that in what i said?

[Bitter Ashes]

with what exactly? :rolleyes: and where did you find that in what i said?
The Republic of Ireland has a standing army I thought. Supplied by Isreal too if I remember right. I guess I wasnt sure who you meant by "they" and what method they would have in mind for getting the 6 counties to join the rest of the island.

but do you really see that coming? like come on they are hardly just gonna pack up and call it a day after hundreds of years of conflict and then proceed to live in harmony as if nothing happened

[Dóchas]

The Republic of Ireland has a standing army I thought. Supplied by Isreal too if I remember right. I guess I wasnt sure who you meant by "they" and what method they would have in mind for getting the 6 counties to join the rest of the island.



ireland is a neutral country so we have the Defence Forces not an army

i meant "they" as in the republicans and unionists in NI

[Bitter Ashes]

Just been reading up on them actualy. They definatly call it an army.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Army
The defence force seems to be what we'd reffer to as "The armed forces"


Current Deployments



Serbia/Kosovo (KFOR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Force)) - 35th Infantry Group
Bosnia (EUFOR Althea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUFOR_Althea)) - MNTF (Finland)
Lebanon (UNIFIL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UNIFIL)) Staff Officers
Chad (EUFOR Chad/CAR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EUFOR_Tchad/RCA)) - Ranger expeditionary force

Irish Army Officers are currently serving in Liberia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sudan, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Western Sahara, Congo, Croatia, Montenegro, Afghanistan and the Ivory Coast.I must admit that caught my attention too. I wouldnt assume that with 8,000 though, that they'd be a threat to any european country. Unless it had just declared independance and wasnt recieving foreign military aid of course.

[ComradeOm]

Interesting, I have always had the perception that any emotioal attachment to Northern Ireland is incredibly weak in England. Ironically , I think that over here the unionist cause is undermined by anti-irish racism. You often here sentiments alng the lines of 'why not get all these crazy paddy's out of our hair'.Based on the Guardian poll (see previous post of mine) that is exactly the general sentiment. Not overly surprising given that NI is costing the rest of Britain roughly £5 billion a year in direct subsidies

However you will always get those who insist that there will be 'no surrender to the IRA'. Typically I've encountered this in ex-servicemen or their relations

[Boy Named Crow]

but do you really see that coming? like come on they are hardly just gonna pack up and call it a day after hundreds of years of conflict and then proceed to live in harmony as if nothing happened. i know you said this was a hypothetical situation but there are limits.


Personally? No I can't see it happening. I am aware I was stretching the limits of reality with that hypotetical but I just wanted to put it forward as interesting.

Here's another hypothetical...

If NI left the union and joined the republic - would the attacks stop? Or is there a section amongst the unionists/loyalists that what take up arms in response?

if that would be a possibility then its hardly a solution to be honest.

[Dóchas]

Irish Army Officers are currently serving in Liberia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Sudan, Israel, Lebanon, Syria, Western Sahara, Congo, Croatia, Montenegro, Afghanistan and the Ivory Coast


on peace keeping missions :rolleyes:



If NI left the union and joined the republic - would the attacks stop? Or is there a section amongst the unionists/loyalists that what take up arms in response?

if that would be a possibility then its hardly a solution to be honest.



probably but the unionists and loyalists would have no reason to retaliate.

[Redmau5]

on peace keeping missions :rolleyes:




probably but the unionists and loyalists would have no reason to retaliate.

Of course they wouldn't have any reason to retaliate, but historically when unionists feel they or their British "identity" have been threatened, they have never hestitated to use violence.

[Dóchas]

Of course they wouldn't have any reason to retaliate, but historically when unionists feel they or their British "identity" have been threatened, they have never hestitated to use violence.

ye but it would force other countries to intervene because they unionists/loyalist would be attacking a legitimate state and not a split and controversial one

[Bitter Ashes]

Actualy, on second thoughts, I'll let somebody else respond to this. I really dont think there's any way that I can respond to that without getting very red in the face and angry. :cursing:

[Dóchas]

Actualy, on second thoughts, I'll let somebody else respond to this. I really dont think there's any way that I can respond to that without getting very red in the face and angry. :cursing:

go for it ;)

[Bitter Ashes]

This may come as a suprise, but we're looking at the republican nationalist paramilitaries in exactly the same light that you're looking at the potential loyalist unionist paramiltaries. Because, last time I checked, the UN regards Northern Ireland as a legitimate state, as do the majority of international goverments and suprise suprise, so do the people of Northern Ireland. You disagree. Fine, I can accept that. The Republic of Ireland also disagrees. I can accept that too. So, I'm going out on a limb here and asking who it is with the controversial stance regarding the legitimacy of Northern Ireland?
The hypocracy is unbelievable. Mistakes were made two or three generations ago by the British, why are you so eager to repeat them? Was it ever about justice, or is it all just about revenge upon the grandchildren of those who oppressed your grandparents?

[Dóchas]

I'm going out on a limb here and asking who it is with the controversial stance regarding the legitimacy of Northern Ireland


well to be honest i doubt many people in different countries know of northenr irelands past. they just see it as part of britain when they look at it on a map.



Mistakes were made two or three generations ago by the British, why are you so eager to repeat them? Was it ever about justice, or is it all just about revenge upon the grandchildren of those who oppressed your grandparents?


so you expect the people of ireland to give up northern ireland just to save the lives of oppressing imperialist forces? sure id say a lot of it is down to revenge but dont they have good reason to be angry?

[Bitter Ashes]

so you expect the people of ireland to give up northern ireland just to save the lives of oppressing imperialist forces? sure id say a lot of it is down to revenge but dont they have good reason to be angry?
You do actualy believe this dont you? :mellow:
Those damn oppressive engineers.... So agressivly disarming that carbomb in late january?
Or the imperialism of subsiding the country so much and holding back from communities on the island that genuinly want no part of the UK.
Seriously. If it was the 70's I'd probably be on your side, but it isnt. Not only are the six counties happy with bieng part of the Union, but also the Republicans are looking for enemies that just are not there!

[Yazman]

I think you should know that your comparison to North Korea, Palestine, North Vietnam et al isn't an appropriate one because Northern Ireland isn't a sovereign state like the aforementioned nations are (or were in the case of north vietnam). Northern Ireland is a subdivision of the UK similar to Scotland and isn't a nation-state in any way, so it can't (and shouldn't) really be compared to one. Northern Ireland's creation is more akin to nations that were created during the colonial period - irrational borders drawn up by people far away with little regard for the inhabitants of the region being divided. Ireland is part of the UK as a result of foreign domination. States rarely (if ever) willingly give up territory, and this is essentially why Northern Ireland even exists separately from the Republic.


Because, last time I checked, the UN regards Northern Ireland as a legitimate state, as do the majority of international goverments and suprise suprise, so do the people of Northern Ireland.

This is 100% false. Northern Ireland does not have UN member status or even observer status; it is recognised as part of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland does not enjoy diplomatic relations with other states as it is a part of the UK and thus is represented diplomatically by the UK. Northern Ireland is not a state. It is a subdivision of the UK that enjoys relative autonomy; it does not however function independently nor does it function as a sovereign state. Internationally Northern Ireland is recognised as just another part of the UK.

[brigadista]

the six counties is a british colony

[Dóchas]

You do actualy believe this dont you


well ye i would of given up ages ago if i didnt



but also the Republicans are looking for enemies that just are not there!


enemies that arent there? are you serious? there have been enemies there for hundreds of years!!



Those damn oppressive engineers.... So agressivly disarming that carbomb in late january?



they wouldnt have just made a carbomb for the fun of it, they felt they had a reason to do it. and the only reason that the british forces knew about the carbomb was because they got a call, probably from the makers

[Bitter Ashes]

This is 100% false. Northern Ireland does not have UN member status or even observer status; it is recognised as part of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland does not enjoy diplomatic relations with other states as it is a part of the UK and thus is represented diplomatically by the UK. Northern Ireland is not a state. It is a subdivision of the UK that enjoys relative autonomy; it does not however function independently nor does it function as a sovereign state. Internationally Northern Ireland is recognised as just another part of the UK.
Actualy, you may find that the UK actualy has one of the longest place names in the world. It's usualy shortened to The United Kingdom, but the full and officialy recognised name is, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

[ComradeOm]

Actualy, you may find that the UK actualy has one of the longest place names in the world. It's usualy shortened to The United Kingdom, but the full and officialy recognised name is, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"Yazman is, as you've helpfully pointed out, perfectly correct. There is no such recognised nation as 'Northern Ireland' but rather it is a territory of the UK (hence its inclusion in the name). It remains a constituent country (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constituent_country#United_Kingdom) under British law and this does in fact amount to a "subdivision of the UK". Neither Stormont, Holyrood, and the Senedd represent themselves at the UN because they are not UN members (http://www.un.org/members/list.shtml) and they are not independent states

[Bitter Ashes]

enemies that arent there? are you serious? there have been enemies there for hundreds of years!!
Am I serious? I'm not the one who believes those 20 year old engineers are secretly centuries old. It's the same old theme since nineteen-sixteen.... ring any bells?


they wouldnt have just made a carbomb for the fun of it, they felt they had a reason to do it. and the only reason that the british forces knew about the carbomb was because they got a call, probably from the makers
I've read it was intended for another barracks, but was later abandoned for a long time, while armed, before anyone called it in. I dont know whether it was actualy that group who phoned it in or whether a member of the public just became suspicous. I do know that a RIRA splinter group was reported to take "credit" some time after the bomb had been diffused.
Did they drive the carbomb out to a secluded spot when they changed thier minds? Did they even, heaven forbid, drive it back to wherever they assembled it? No, at best they acted callously and with disregard to those kids' lives. At worst, they had deliberatly targetted them. We'll never know which it is for sure, but I guess I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they're just irresponsible idiots that risk innocent people's lives without a second thought.
Seriously. How can you think these people give a damn about the people of Northern Ireland when they're doing stuff like this and Omagh.

[Dóchas]

Am I serious? I'm not the one who believes those 20 year old engineers are secretly centuries old. It's the same old theme since nineteen-sixteen.... ring any bells?



as i said in another thread or earlier on in this one i cant remeber, when they singed up they joined the British army, it is one entity and everyone it it are accountable for eachothers actions.



I've read it was intended for another barracks, but was later abandoned for a long time, while armed, before anyone called it in. I dont know whether it was actualy that group who phoned it in or whether a member of the public just became suspicous. I do know that a RIRA splinter group was reported to take "credit" some time after the bomb had been diffused.
Did they drive the carbomb out to a secluded spot when they changed thier minds? Did they even, heaven forbid, drive it back to wherever they assembled it? No, at best they acted callously and with disregard to those kids' lives. At worst, they had deliberatly targetted them. We'll never know which it is for sure, but I guess I can give them the benefit of the doubt that they're just irresponsible idiots that risk innocent people's lives without a second thought.
Seriously. How can you think these people give a damn about the people of Northern Ireland when they're doing stuff like this and Omagh.


suprisingly i agree with you there i dont think they should have just left it there but there are a few thing that we dont know about. we dont know about the circumstances in which they were forced to abandon the car. all we know is what we are being told by the bourgeoisie media. i dont think that they would have purposefully targeted a school, if they had they would have lost any credability that they have aswell as killing school children.

[Yazman]

Actualy, you may find that the UK actualy has one of the longest place names in the world. It's usualy shortened to The United Kingdom, but the full and officialy recognised name is, "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland"

Please refer to ComradeOm's post. You are just re-inforcing what I said here. Northern Ireland doesn't have diplomatic relations with any entity on the entire planet. It doesn't have a UN seat. It isn't recognised as a sovereign nation or a state by the UN. It isn't recognised as independent by the UN. There is even an "observer status" that the UN gives to entities that are de facto autonomous but do not have their own state apparatus or are otherwise not recognised as a nation-state by any other in the world; Northern Ireland doesn't even have observer status.

It isn't recognised in the UN in any way, shape, or form, nor does any nation on the planet recognise Northern Ireland as a nation-state. It is just another part of the United Kingdom. Northern Ireland is not and has never been a nation-state.