What makes one abandon revolution?

[punisa]

This is something that I've been reading/thinking about lately. I know examples where people were devoted Marxists for 10,20 even 40 years, suddenly they abandoned everything - Marxism, Socialism, revolution Communism... the whole lefty spectrum just died for them.

Let's consider that someone that just started getting into the whole thing has a higher possibility to quit, but what happened to these people who spent so much time researching the ideology?

Couple of reasons come to my mind:
1) they start to think that its an utopia that will never be achieved (why?)
2) frightened by death they turn to religion (no afterlife for Marxists)
3) they somehow get influenced by other ideologies (there ARE many)
4) all countries that pursued communism failed (there ARE many)

What's even more scarier is that some people turn tu fascism :blink: Now how in the world can one do that? I'm really puzzled, because if even all forces mentioned above were working against me, I'd still believe. Even if its the most lunatic utopia in the human history, I'd still declare myself as a socialist. I just believe that it is the only humane and correct way that human being should be living on Earth.

But then again, seeing such crazy examples, one starts to think.
Can you actually get so fed up with the sole theory that you just decide to "quit" everything?

There is currently a retired political figure (he's like 80 something) that released a book here in which he claims how he became a devoted Christian after a whole life of Marxism.
Believe me, scary shit :lol:

Anyway, I'm very interested in the whole subject.

[Picky Bugger]

Myriad factors cause the abandonment of ideology and political practice, those four probably have an affect in some way. I guess fear would be a relatively large part of it be it the threat of no after life or the notion of wasting ones life (speaking in terms of practice) or other reasons. Fear affects everyone and I guess it could have a larger affect upon someone on the fringe of society especially the political fringe.

Its rather extreme to dump ones ideology so I'm guessing it would take a large push to make you jump. Who knows you'll have to ask the people who have changed their ideology...

[Pogue]

Tbh, its mainly posers selling out.

Who's with me?

[thecoffeecake1]

No after life? this isn't a religion. contrary to popular belief, you CAN be a communist and a christian/jew/muslim/ect. that is rediculous that you would think that people turn on communism because they start believing in a higher power.

[FreeFocus]

I think it has more to do with frustration at the fact that people aren't taking action or that the conditions aren't right. It's definitely understandable. I get pissed off too at how blind people can be, but meh.

[Nils T.]

It's old age and the brain deteriorating.

[Revulero]

I say that some people just become disillusioned when nothing goes right thats why we have to keep being optimistic no matter what and for leftist who turn to facism, I'm sure that they are more than likely to be posers, who just wanted to fit in.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I think it has more to do with frustration at the fact that people aren't taking action or that the conditions aren't right. It's definitely understandable. I get pissed off too at how blind people can be, but meh.


Sounds similar to me. I often get frustrated and begin doubting the whole Marxism thing. However I stay at it because I know it's for the better.

[mikelepore]

I find it necessary to think in terms of historical time, where a hundred years may be one tick of the clock, the way a geologist has a time scale where an even longer duration is one tick.

The average person isn't accustomed to doing that. The average person thinks, if they realize that they personally won't live to see the outcome of an effort, that this is a reason not to support it.

The inability to imagine a new world without oneself being in it is a common limitation. For example, Robert Zubrin, the aerospace engineer who founded the Mars Society. The way he argues that it's very important that explorers be walking on Mars in about ten years, I get the feeling that his whole reason is that he wants to around to see it happen, which is not a very good reason for choosing a particular schedule.

There's nothing that I support that I will live to see accomplished. Most people would find such a condition to be something that removes all the motivation.

[punisa]

I find it necessary to think in terms of historical time, where a hundred years may be one tick of the clock, the way a geologist has a time scale where an even longer duration is one tick.

The average person isn't accustomed to doing that. The average person thinks, if they realize that they personally won't live to see the outcome of an effort, that this is a reason not to support it.

The inability to imagine a new world without oneself being in it is a common limitation. For example, Robert Zubrin, the aerospace engineer who founded the Mars Society. The way he argues that it's very important that explorers be walking on Mars in about ten years, I get the feeling that his whole reason is that he wants to around to see it happen, which is not a very good reason for choosing a particular schedule.

There's nothing that I support that I will live to see accomplished. Most people would find such a condition to be something that removes all the motivation.

Good point there, it certainly discourages many people from moving on with an idea.
Really makes you wonder, what would happen with the number of our people if hypothetically it would be declared that communism will be achieved in 2220 ?

Again there is a bigger uncertainty, not for the fact that we won't be able to live in such a society, but that it just might never come.

As others pointed, we surely do need optimism. Take Christians, they believe in the second coming of Christ, but surely many are not considering themselves that lucky to be around when it happens.
This foundations keeps them believing no matter when the outcome will be.
I'm not going to go so far as to say that we should learn from religious, that would actually mean turning Marxism into the religion itself.

[Nakidana]

Things change. I think people who suddenly think capitalism is as good as it gets should open a fucking history book.

Anyway another factor might be people getting fed up with being the "underdog" all the time. Let's face it, the revolutionary left isn't reaching the front pages in the West.

[Vendetta]

Money.

[Nils T.]

I find it necessary to think in terms of historical time, where a hundred years may be one tick of the clock, the way a geologist has a time scale where an even longer duration is one tick.

The average person isn't accustomed to doing that. The average person thinks, if they realize that they personally won't live to see the outcome of an effort, that this is a reason not to support it. Neglecting one's own dreams and death is the worst fault a revolutionnary can commit. The proletariat is not the revolutionnary class because it believes that it is the chosen one, but because it is exploited, knows it and wants it to end as soon as possible.

Revolutionnary times are joyous and adventurous times. That's enough of a motive for mortal humans, and as long as it is so, that guarantee that the revolution will not be lost or sacrificied, like it had been so many times in the past.

[rioters bloc]

You get fed up with the racists, misogynists, homopobes, and general assholes within "the movement" and think that any revolution that is propelled by such ignorant and arrogant people isn't a revolution that you want to be part of. And sadly there don't appear to be any alternatives so you just want to give up.

[Rjevan]

I'd say one point is money and comfort.
If you see how everybody else who arranges with the system lives a more or less happy life, makes money and has fun while you run your had against a brick wall, have problems with the police and with finding a job you'll probably reconsider your attitude.

An other point certainly is frustration.

1) they start to think that its an utopia that will never be achieved (why?)
I think it's because of the people they fight for.
It's very easy to get embittered if you want to help e.g. workers and talk to them about their opression, the social injustice and that they have to fight for their rights and the answer you get is "Get lost. I have enough problems without you an' I don't want to lose my job because of some crazy reds. You don't know what you're talking about."
It's hard to convince yourself that it's important to help people who obviously want no help and think you're mad.

Also you see how egoistic people are. As long as they live in comfort most of them don't even think of protesting against social injustice: "Well, it's not my problem. Would these unemployed people have worked a little harder and learned a bit more in school they would have a job now. Now leave me alone the match starts any second."
But if recession reaches them, look how fast they are with screaming for governmental help.

Then you hear nonstop horrorstories about the socialist countries, what insane mass murderers their leaders were and how much the people suffered. And even if you convinced that it still was better than it now is you see how these countries collapsed, not because of a war or a coup, no, because of their very own people who wanted capitalism and nationalism instead of socialism.
This all can make you very frustrated.

Why people turn from the radical left to the radical right is something I have no idea of. How can anyone who once believed in the left ideology betray his beliefs that much and turn to this evil, ignorant and intolerant ideologies like fascism. I mean, some old ideas must still be there in your mind and they should be incompatible with fascism; you should know how vicious this ideology is and how much damage and suffering it caused, so how can one close your eyes that much?

[rednordman]

And even if you convinced that it still was better than it now is you see how these countries collapsed, not because of a war or a coup, no, because of their very own people who wanted capitalism and nationalism instead of socialism.
This all can make you very frustrated.
Good post, I can relate to alot of what you have said there but I would like to stress that I do not believe that it was the fact that they wanted capitalism and nationalism, more they thought it represented something it didnt. For instance, I sometimes get the impression that during the soviet block, people had an idealised picture of what capitalism was, its like they thought it would bring prosperity to everyone equally, so all of a sudden they would all get to live just like people did in the west. Time has shown us the answer to this unfortunetly. Sure things have certainly improved for some, but it also left a hell of a lot of people behind.

I must ask, did you mean turn their backs on being active?, or leftwing beliefs altogether?

The main reasons (imo) why people turn their backs on having left wing beliefs, is that people are slowly but surely getting the idea set that the only answer is free market capitalism and anything else is doomed to failure. The interesting thing is exactly how this has come to be. I blame the media mainly, absolutley bombarding us with rather elaborate anti-left properganda. What I actually mean by that statement is the steep rise of individualism and rule of the selfish impulses. This is that peoples main philosophy on life nowadays is to 'look after number 1'. This isnt such a bad philosophy in some circumstances(In communist societies it would die but there will of course be individualism), just there is an invisible sentence after it which goes : 'and f**k everyone else'.
The interesting thing imo, is that at the start of the 20th century, the 'look after number 1' was in big bold hand writing, and the 'f everyone else' was very small. Nowadays, Its the other way round.
Trust me, if you take a good look around at things you wil realise that there is more than just the bad side of the former socialist states that put people off. There is a whole spectrum of ways that we are supposed to comform to. And likewise concepts that we are supposed to reject.-We go against the grain.
Another reason is, that of feeling isolated, and not wanting to be labelled as ideallic. You only need to look at how the left is generally portrayed in society to understand this. Yes as we all know, its all false, but due to decades (mabey even centuries) of rabid anti-left concepts getting pelted at everyone it begins to sink in to society. This sadly makes it very hard to get messages across, and dare I say it, even admit to being a socialist.

This leads to my last point that I do not think anyone has mentioned yet, and that is the one of persecution. Ok, we do not live in a complete fascist police state, but, If you find it hard to get work simply because you have been blacklisted or singled out for having left-wing beliefs, it still is persecution. This is then linked to the points made about money, as sadly, the only option we have in this world is to work to live, not vice versa. To some people its too much of a risk. And I fear that this kind of persecution is getting worse. I dont think im being paranoid here either.

[ZeroNowhere]

Also you see how egoistic people are. As long as they live in comfort most of them don't even think of protesting against social injustice: "Well, it's not my problem. Would these unemployed people have worked a little harder and learned a bit more in school they would have a job now. Now leave me alone the match starts any second."
Um, that's because they learnt more at school.


Then you hear nonstop horrorstories about the socialist countries, what insane mass murderers their leaders were and how much the people suffered. And even if you convinced that it still was better than it now is you see how these countries collapsed, not because of a war or a coup, no, because of their very own people who wanted capitalism and nationalism instead of socialism.
This would only apply to... Actually, not even Stalinists generally call post-Stalinist Russia socialist.

[punisa]

I'd say one point is money and comfort.
If you see how everybody else who arranges with the system lives a more or less happy life, makes money and has fun while you run your had against a brick wall, have problems with the police and with finding a job you'll probably reconsider your attitude.

An other point certainly is frustration.

I think it's because of the people they fight for.
It's very easy to get embittered if you want to help e.g. workers and talk to them about their opression, the social injustice and that they have to fight for their rights and the answer you get is "Get lost. I have enough problems without you an' I don't want to lose my job because of some crazy reds. You don't know what you're talking about."
It's hard to convince yourself that it's important to help people who obviously want no help and think you're mad.

Also you see how egoistic people are. As long as they live in comfort most of them don't even think of protesting against social injustice: "Well, it's not my problem. Would these unemployed people have worked a little harder and learned a bit more in school they would have a job now. Now leave me alone the match starts any second."
But if recession reaches them, look how fast they are with screaming for governmental help.

Then you hear nonstop horrorstories about the socialist countries, what insane mass murderers their leaders were and how much the people suffered. And even if you convinced that it still was better than it now is you see how these countries collapsed, not because of a war or a coup, no, because of their very own people who wanted capitalism and nationalism instead of socialism.
This all can make you very frustrated.

Why people turn from the radical left to the radical right is something I have no idea of. How can anyone who once believed in the left ideology betray his beliefs that much and turn to this evil, ignorant and intolerant ideologies like fascism. I mean, some old ideas must still be there in your mind and they should be incompatible with fascism; you should know how vicious this ideology is and how much damage and suffering it caused, so how can one close your eyes that much?

Very good points indeed. I agree on all of them, you gave some great socialist day-to-day examples that are totally correct.

I remember 1991 very good, the year when it all came down. There were people out on the streets, crying their eyes out in hope to "finally" have a nation.
An example - in Croatia there was a referendum which let people choose from these two options:
1) remain in Yugoslavia
2) separate from Yugoslavia AND abandon socialism in favour of free market.

What do you think the score was? Over 95% chose answer number two.
Was the referendum democratic ? Yes it was.
Did the referendum reflect the will of the people? Yes it did.

There you have it, this was a democratic decision to abandon socialism.
Soon the bitter war broke out, but that's a different story, the point is - its hard to preach socialism to this crowd...

And soon many became homeless, burdened with debt, exploited, harassed, destroyed in all ways the capitalism destroys the working class.

Is it really fair to say that people were just swayed with propaganda? Or to say that people just didn't know what capitalist system is like? I don't buy that shit, I just don't. Socialist governments had propaganda of their own, they regularly explained in details the downside of the western capitalism.

I believe these things can really shake one's leftist ideas. Luckily many will not just quit when faced with such a challenge, we must strive in our goal.

I don't believe that socialism will be possibly if we base it solely on the fact that the working class must break out of their chains. What will stop the former oppressed individuals to become oppressors themselves?
Socialism should be planned out and implemented as a way of life, the complete set of guidelines on "how to be a human" so to speak :thumbup1:

What is our need of a worker who is eager to join the proletarian revolution while he/she hates blacks, other nationalities, gay or something along these lines?
Despite being the working class, he/she is no revolutionary and should have no part in it whatsoever.

I suggested to several people the importance of educating the working class, in order to make them true revolutionary socialist class. Usually I was ridiculed as being an utopian :laugh:

[MikeSC]

Yeah, I've noticed this too. Lots of prominent politicians used to be socialists- Gordon Brown, Alastair Darling, Peter Mandelson, several Tories. Lots of people in the media used to be, then ceased to (like Jeremy Paxman.) Not to mention Oswald Mosley, and Peter Hitchens cadre of Daily Mail/Murdoch press bigots.

My personal opinion is that these people throw themselves into what they think is Marxism, without ever having read anything more than 1984. And then when they find that the fiction they created has holes in it- they abandon it. I've had discussions with ex-"Marxists" on other forums and found that they didn't know the first thing about it. And similarly, I used to know a couple of rich kids in "Socialist Students", a short term little rebellion against mother and father- who thought Marxism was nothing more than "Rich people are bad!", "Russian looking clothes are good!", and a lot of posturing.

It could just be that things get on top of people. Hegemony is so much easier- it'd ease the mind if I could look at a product in a shop and think "Tasty chocolate, nothing more" rather than "Nestle, so it's been grown and produced by five year olds working 100 hour weeks." And then having other people not understand why you give a shit.

Has anyone read "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists"? It's long, but I highly recommend it. There's a scene where the socialist character is kinda just despairing of the Labour Party ever getting into power and considering submitting to the status quo or killing himself. How times have changed...

[Melbourne Lefty]

.

Why people turn from the radical left to the radical right is something I have no idea of.

Its pretty simple.

I have talked with people over the net who have gone from anarchism or marxism in their youth to being racial/racist-populist if not actual fascists.

In the end its because deep down they see race as being a more coherent identity than class. Being "For my people" seems to make more sense than being "For my class".

Mainly because of all the reasons people have put above, sometimes it seems like we are banging our heads against the wall trying to develop a class identity and consiousness in the general population, and if there is a strong racial/cultural/religious identity already in the population, sometimes it seems easier for some people to merely join that identity and protect its interests.

Such people usually remain anti-capitalist, which is why "Third positionist" ideologies have traditionally had such an appeal to them.

Which is why educating the working class to see themselves as the working class and nothing else is so important.

Any identity that divides them [except for fairly trivial identities like Football teams] needs to be shown up for the shallow substitutes that they are.

[rednordman]

Is it really fair to say that people were just swayed with propaganda? Or to say that people just didn't know what capitalist system is like? I don't buy that shit, I just don't. Socialist governments had propaganda of their own, they regularly explained in details the downside of the western capitalism. mmm..The thing that gets me wondering though, is if they where given properganda from their original socialist governments showing how things can go bad, and low and behold it did, what made them think that it would be the best thing to do in the first place? Please do not missunderstand me here. For all I know things may have improved immensely (in 2009) , though according to you and, being honest, many other sources, things have not really improved much and have simply brought a whole new dimension of other problems with it.
Im not really in a position to make the judgments that you can as you have the experience from both times in the flesh. You have stated the concrete facts about the referendum that was held in Yugoslavia, and as you have stated: they unaminously went against socialism. The exact same can be said about the former baltic states also, yet though things improving in some senses, all capitalism has done there is brought more problems than it has solved (if it has solved any).
Yet the peoples of these countries where so certain that it was the correct thing to do. Obviously, this came at a time where the oppressive elements of these countries could not continue (this aimed mainly at the former Soviet Union), where they didnt necersarilly have to totally abandon socialism for full-scale deregulated free market.

This is why i think that the media and in many ways hollywood had an impact. Because, During the 80s when films from USA managed to get shown in the SU and other socialist countries, people would have seen some movies and actually believed the pristean, anything is possible, take a chance image that many of the films in the USA were trying to portray. The same could also be said about to todays cinema also as I have noticed alot of morals getting subtley placed into films (freedom = free to choose to do anything, free from the constraints of negative opinion, and worring about how you actions effect others, etc.)
Though I could understand if many of you may not see TV and movies having much of an impact, I do believe there is, and has been, more to broadcasting than meets the eye during the last 80years or so. People get too easially influenced by what is deemed as being cool and popular, and often they do not actually come to these decisions by themselves, they are just bombarded with well advertised products (again and again), and it sticks. The same can be said about ideals/morals also (just watch skynews) . I would say this about the UK and most of the west in anycase. Not sure about the rest of the world though.

[Rjevan]

In the end its because deep down they see race as being a more coherent identity than class. Being "For my people" seems to make more sense than being "For my class".

Mainly because of all the reasons people have put above, sometimes it seems like we are banging our heads against the wall trying to develop a class identity and consiousness in the general population, and if there is a strong racial/cultural/religious identity already in the population, sometimes it seems easier for some people to merely join that identity and protect its interests.

Such people usually remain anti-capitalist, which is why "Third positionist" ideologies have traditionally had such an appeal to them.
So they are people who got frustrated with running their head against a wall with communism/anarchism but don't want to arrange themselves with the system and therefore turn to the other extreme, which seems to be the easier way?
This sounds logical, but still, I find it worrying and hard to understand that one who believed in communism/anarchism adopts racial hate and nationalism so easily, although these things were something he fought against once.

[punisa]

mmm..The thing that gets me wondering though, is if they where given properganda from their original socialist governments showing how things can go bad, and low and behold it did, what made them think that it would be the best thing to do in the first place? Please do not missunderstand me here. For all I know things may have improved immensely (in 2009) , though according to you and, being honest, many other sources, things have not really improved much and have simply brought a whole new dimension of other problems with it.
Im not really in a position to make the judgments that you can as you have the experience from both times in the flesh. You have stated the concrete facts about the referendum that was held in Yugoslavia, and as you have stated: they unaminously went against socialism. The exact same can be said about the former baltic states also, yet though things improving in some senses, all capitalism has done there is brought more problems than it has solved (if it has solved any).
Yet the peoples of these countries where so certain that it was the correct thing to do. Obviously, this came at a time where the oppressive elements of these countries could not continue (this aimed mainly at the former Soviet Union), where they didnt necersarilly have to totally abandon socialism for full-scale deregulated free market.

This is why i think that the media and in many ways hollywood had an impact. Because, During the 80s when films from USA managed to get shown in the SU and other socialist countries, people would have seen some movies and actually believed the pristean, anything is possible, take a chance image that many of the films in the USA were trying to portray. The same could also be said about to todays cinema also as I have noticed alot of morals getting subtley placed into films (freedom = free to choose to do anything, free from the constraints of negative opinion, and worring about how you actions effect others, etc.)
Though I could understand if many of you may not see TV and movies having much of an impact, I do believe there is, and has been, more to broadcasting than meets the eye during the last 80years or so. People get too easially influenced by what is deemed as being cool and popular, and often they do not actually come to these decisions by themselves, they are just bombarded with well advertised products (again and again), and it sticks. The same can be said about ideals/morals also (just watch skynews) . I would say this about the UK and most of the west in anycase. Not sure about the rest of the world though.

I completely agree with you. Media has an enormous impact on people's decision.
Unfortunately when it comes down to slick and manipulative advertising/propaganda - Capitalism wins over socialism like 5:1

Socialism could not get its ideology on billboards adequately, the only element where it did succeed was personality cults. And lets face it, apart from many of us who dig into theory and despise the personality cult, masses loved it.
In some parts they still do (North Korea).

If the whole personality cult only involved sticking the "leader's" face everywhere I'd be all for that - unfortunately these people quickly become ruthless dictators :(

Unlike USSR, Yugoslavia was very friendly with the west, and 90% of movies on TV were actually from Hollywood. But in this particular case the nations were more tricked into believing that socialism by 1990 was just a façade for Serbian expanding nationalism.

Anyway, back on topic. Can we possibly ban the Hollywood movies in the early stages of a hypothetical new socialist country? I don't think so.
Thus we'll still have to find the solution how to deal with it.
Well, thinking about it - isn't it blatantly obvious? Revolution must take place in the US, every other attempt will be infiltrated, poisoned and broken down by the same US.
But if the US would somehow (yeah, I know..) turn socialist, who in the world would sway it back? UK, Spain, Italy? Don't think so.

US imposes its way of life everywhere, the whole planet earth must think US, live US, work US. Ofcourse, it won't be possible, majority will just sink into despair and poverty, lacking any resources to achieve such a lifestyle. The majority of the US citizens actually can not afford to "live an US lifestyle".

In the face of a rapidly advancing world and the crisis that are being introduced, I believe socialism has a great chance to be established. But we, the socialists, must understand the huge octopus that we are facing against.
To bring down the capitalist rule, it will take much cunningness, planning and adopting in order to succeed.

We should not deviate from the Marxists foundations, but we sure need a hell of lot of supplementals.

As rednordman stated, another reason for why people might be tempted to abandon socialism is the fact that it is not "cool" or "trendy", at least not according to the current definitions of these words.
Marketing gurus behind MTV and similar crap and coining these things and feeding it to the hungry population that lost touch with reality.

On the other hand you have us - the socialists, a tiny group of men and women who are devoted to the writings of a long dead bearded German guy who wrote like 10 pages per day that no modern person can understand.
How in the world could I ever persuade my female friend who tries to mimic ridiculed marionettes like "Shakira" or "Britney Spears" to join our ranks?
Sure, she'll soon get a job and feel what means to be exploited. Then again, maybe not. She WILL be exploited in a way, but considering her high education she'll probabbly get a job which will provide her with excess luxury - fine parties, clothes, cars and similar materialistic nonsense.
"Give it all up girl, take arms and join the proletarian revolution !" - won't work. Going in great details to present the same idea - won't work.

A guy that is working in a nearby factory. Same result - won't work. Although he's go to extra luxury, he claims he manages to feed his kids. He is not ready to risk that, seeing many are not able to do even so.

So we arrive to the lowest ranks, those who failed and became homeless and drunkards. Can I persuade them? I can give it a shot, sure. But they'll just probabbly rob me - or worse :p

Where is our fighting force then? I hope I'm somehow getting a point across here.
Let's put it this way:
- we convince group A to join our struggle
- group A starts to think and is all fired up to get the show going
- 6 months go by
- we convince group B to join our struggle
- group B starts to think and is all fired up to get the show going
- by this time group A abandons everything and denounces socialism as being "silly utopia" they somehow got tricked into

We should be worried about this. I know, there are no official measurements of how many of us would choose socialism over capitalism. But I believe the number is oscillating all the time - e.g. it goes UP and DOWN, UP and DOWN and so on.

People are probably most honest about their intentions and ideas somewhere in the 18-28 age gap. Soon as they marry, get kids on the way, all sparks diminish rather quickly. How to stop this from happening?
We are then left with just a few remote theorists who continue the idea, while the large proportions of our ranks just disappears.
And those who are left will only probabbly spent their next available years on earth re-reading Marx, many to only dispose him as a loony when they get close to dying.

We need to figure out a way to keep our numbers growing consistently, being also aware that the mentioned propaganda (Hollywood etc) will be working against us 24/7.

Majority will still be clueless about socialism, even at the brink of the revolution. But these masses will follow regardless. I have no intention to insult anyone, but I believe many of you will agree that the particular portion of any country's population will blindly follow what is currently cooking - be it socialism, fascism, militarism...

The critical-understanding-revolutionary mass is what we need. The ones who will get the show going, thus I think it should be important that we are aware that we ARE loosing people, and we need to know why and how to prevent it.
Also mentioned before, many members indeed are just posers, wishing to belong somewhere. But instead of hunting these down and labelling them as fake socialist, I think these men and women have the potential needed to become real.

[Black Sheep]

Even if its the most lunatic utopia in the human history, I'd still declare myself as a socialist.
This one gave me rabies.If socialism was a lunatic utopia then you should abandon your beliefs, because they would be just that - beliefs, and you would have to find another way of freeing the oppressed.

You get me? :)

[Rawthentic]

hmm, this is a very important question.

Many of us young people dont understand how it is to live in a world with socialist states.

I have a sociology professor whom ive debated quite a few times. He admitted to being a maoist back in his day, but has renounced that and is a general social-democrat.

And this is something we really need to connect with. After the defeat of socialism in china, there were bourgeois summations and communist summations. Many took the former, burnt out and disillusioned with what they saw as a "failed" project. THESE are people we need to connect with. Young people today (a major revolutionary catalyst) need to put our politics in a creative and daring way to prove that what they struggled for back then is by no means over. This can be very moving and dramatic for former communists.

[Q]

The reason I see many older comrades leave is simple: they become disillusioned in building the movement. And that is very understandable from their position. Imagine dedicating 20 years of your life trying to build a revolutionary alternative, yet things instead stagnate and don't seem to move, how would you react? We have a very difficult historic period behind us, a period in which spreading Marxist ideas was like working in a desert.

Fortunately I think the mood is changing. Neoliberalism is dead in many senses, one of which ideologically. The system is in a crisis and we're expected to pay their bill. A new period of growing class struggle is afoot. Marxists can and will grow under these circumstances. The ideas that are the most effective will gather the most movement, other ones will lag behind or die out.

This is also a reason why the youth is so vital. Where as older people most of the time get a family, a mortgage, a fulltime job, etc... Young comrades have the time and energy to actively build the organisation. Older comrades of course are also still vital. Whereas the younger have the time and energy, older comrades have the experience and wisdom so we can learn from errors and don't reinvent wheels. An healthy organisation balances between both these extremes.

[punisa]

This one gave me rabies.If socialism was a lunatic utopia then you should abandon your beliefs, because they would be just that - beliefs, and you would have to find another way of freeing the oppressed.

You get me? :)

I don't consider being the socialist as having only one task - "freeing the oppressed". I alone can not free the oppressed, I am oppressed myself. As a collective we can free ourselves.
A set of socialist beliefs is a larger scope, a set that should not be abandoned.

Being aware of hidden forces at large, being aware of alienation that is put upon us, understanding and accepting the equality of all human beings regardless of their race and ethnicity. To be able to discard fancy trends and advertising upon us. To live a life as a human, as a socialist.

These are just a tiny proportion of beliefs I consider crucial if you are to declare yourself a socialist. And in my dictionary these are the beliefs that one should have.

If in 20 years all of us suddenly agree that we won't be able to bring revolution and stop the exploitation by the rich, does that mean that we can not hate black people?
I've said it before and will stick with it, considering our struggle as a single-tasked mission will get us nowhere.

Here is actually another argument why some abandon socialism - if you see it only as a tool for getting yourselves out of the exploitation hell, you'll soon see that this won't be easy and achievable soon, thus you discard it all together.

[punisa]

kickass video, φοβερο για τελειως αμυητους (αλλα προωθει και διαφορες πασιφιστικες ανοησιουλες, τεσπα)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3072291302771620276&q=capitalism

spoiler:το τελος ΤΑ ΣΠΑΕΙ

Great, and its full length. I only watched it in parts on youtube :) But isn't the first video all in white background and this one with images? funny :p

[Black Sheep]

I don't consider being the socialist as having only one task - "freeing the oppressed". I alone can not free the oppressed, I am oppressed myself. As a collective we can free ourselves.
A set of socialist beliefs is a larger scope, a set that should not be abandoned.

Being aware of hidden forces at large, being aware of alienation that is put upon us, understanding and accepting the equality of all human beings regardless of their race and ethnicity. To be able to discard fancy trends and advertising upon us. To live a life as a human, as a socialist.

These are just a tiny proportion of beliefs I consider crucial if you are to declare yourself a socialist. And in my dictionary these are the beliefs that one should have.

If in 20 years all of us suddenly agree that we won't be able to bring revolution and stop the exploitation by the rich, does that mean that we can not hate black people?
I've said it before and will stick with it, considering our struggle as a single-tasked mission will get us nowhere.

Here is actually another argument why some abandon socialism - if you see it only as a tool for getting yourselves out of the exploitation hell, you'll soon see that this won't be easy and achievable soon, thus you discard it all together.
I just meant that your current support in socialism/communism is based on the evidence of the nature of capitalism,and on the alternative of communism.

If one day it was proved beyond doubt that socialism doesnt work, or it was a hoax etc, then you should abandon your belief in it.If you didnt, it would be like beliefing and clinging on to a religion.

[punisa]

I just meant that your current support in socialism/communism is based on the evidence of the nature of capitalism,and on the alternative of communism.

If one day it was proved beyond doubt that socialism doesnt work, or it was a hoax etc, then you should abandon your belief in it.If you didnt, it would be like beliefing and clinging on to a religion.

I got your point sheep. The whole "being a hoax" this is just hypothetical way of speech. Ofcourse socialism can not be proven as one, it can only be classified as so by the capitalist propaganda.

To clarify the statement I made - even if the situation gets much worse then it is now, even if many socialists start to abandon it, it would still be wise to remain determined.
It was indeed just a lame statement I made in order to describe that determination should be essential, no need to analyse it too deep :thumbup1:

[MikeSC]

I got your point sheep. The whole "being a hoax" this is just hypothetical way of speech. Ofcourse socialism can not be proven as one, it can only be classified as so by the capitalist propaganda.

To clarify the statement I made - even if the situation gets much worse then it is now, even if many socialists start to abandon it, it would still be wise to remain determined.
It was indeed just a lame statement I made in order to describe that determination should be essential, no need to analyse it too deep :thumbup1:

I know what you mean punisa- be honest in your convictions rather than take the word of other people that your convictions are wrong, kind of thing?

[punisa]

I know what you mean punisa- be honest in your convictions rather than take the word of other people that your convictions are wrong, kind of thing?

Something along those lines I'd say. Indeed socialism can never become a religious like following. There is no deity, god, authority or any other person/element/form to which we could/should subordinate.

Probably in the absence of such, it is much easier to abandon socialism. In case of the religion there are certain "punishments" (clever eh?) if you even think about denouncing your god/religion - you go straight to hell - for eternity ! :blink: