Racism, homophobia and prejudice in rap lyrics

[Janine Melnitz]

[EDIT: For anyone who wasn't here for it, this was split from the "Immortal Technique" thread, where I was just offering my two cents on that particular dude. I didn't seriously start some kind of "OH MY GOODNESS RAPPERS ARE HOMOPHOBES" thread.]

Why you tryin’ to be hardcore, you fuckin’ homo-thug?/ and don’t be sensitive and angry at the shit that I wrote/ ‘cause if you can take a fucking dick, you can take a joke
Give me a hundred grand, give me your watch, give me your chain. /That's your girl? *****, get over here and give me some brain. /I'll bust off on her face and right after the segment, /She'll probably rub it in her pussy, trying to get herself pregnant.
I never make songs to disrespect women/ Or to judge people about the way that they’re living/ But the way I am is based on the life I was given
Immortal Technique incinerate degenerate fags
As for homophobia, hip hop never embraced faggots. One can’t deny that there are probably rappers, DJs and fans that are mo's but I think since the culture was based around proving one's manhood, acting like a fruitpop isn’t gonna get you anywhere.
and if you're pissed off ’cause you think that I dissed you/ I rape your moms and we can make this a personal issueYeah, I know, none of this is news to any of you -- and I know that standing up for faggots and *****es makes me, at best, a "coffee shop revolutionary son of a *****", so I won't. I'll just say that in my personal private o-pinion, this shit makes him unlistenable.

What's funny is that I love some other rappers who are equally homophobic and much more misogynistic; their lack of "revolutionary" pretensions makes their idiocy more palatable to me, I guess.

[Pirate Utopian]

About The Coup: as somebody who isn't african-american its really hard for me to like them. I want to like them, I really honestly do, but its very hard when they are adherents of black supremacist movements, and they rap about it in some of their songs. I don't get the "fuck yeah, revolution!" sort of hype I get when I listen to other political rappers when I listen to some of The Coup's songs. Not all of their songs are like this but some of them are.
I like the funk they pack in their music and Boots' smooth delivery.

I dont know of any black supremacism in their lyrics, give me an example.

[Rangi]

It's easy to sit back and criticize someone's art when you have made no contribution yourself. It is hard to fully critique hiphop if you are standing from the outside observing. You need to participate and contribute to hiphop culture if you hope to truly understand it. Do you know what the four elements of hiphop culture are?

I like IT. I'm sure some of the things he says are offensive but what gives anyone the right to be offended?

ps I've seen the The Herd live and I thought they were rather average.

[Janine Melnitz]

It's easy to sit back and criticize someone's foreign policy when you have made no contribution yourself. It is hard to fully critique parliamentary politics if you are standing from the outside observing. You need to participate and contribute to Washington culture if you hope to truly understand it. Do you know what the four elements of Washington culture are?

I like Obama. I'm sure some of the bombings he approves are offensive but what gives anyone the right to be offended?

ps I've seen Jimmy Carter live and I thought he was rather average.
I guess you're right :blushing:

[Janine Melnitz]

And I mean fuck, let me stop this whole "Being offended by homophobia and misogyny means you don't understand hip-hop!!!" bullshit. Tech's assertion that "the culture was based around proving one's manhood" is pretty instructive of the bullshit behind this accusation: were MC Lyte, The Real Roxanne, Queen Latifah, Eve, Lauryn Hill, K-Swift, Da Brat, Missy, Rye Rye, and M.I.A. trying to "prove their manhood" when they entered the rap game?

Fuck apologists for patriarchy, seriously. That's fucking vile.

[political_animal]

Got to agree Lafonte, I don't understand the disconnect between people being anti-racist but then quite happily being homophobic or sexist and then not understanding such a disparity.

IT's defence of his homophobia being a 'cultural thing' is lame. Whilst his political lyrics might be enjoyable for us to actually see some leftist verse in action, he then ruins it with these other comments.

I've been into hip hop since I discovered it at the age of 12 in '87 (and coming from the north of England there wasn't much about!) and my heroes have always been Public Enemy, a quality political act but even they whilst not being overtly homophobic still came up with...

"Man to man/I don't know if they can/from what I know/the parts don't fit".

I'm not a latecomer to hip hop, know full well what the four elements are and enjoy a good political rant but have always been uneasy that whilst fighting against racism, others were quite happy to be homophobic. Why should we accept homophobia as 'artistic licence'?

[Rangi]

It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own. The Unabomber Manifesto critiques this aspect of leftism rather well. So IT can be sexist and homophobic - oh well maybe he wasn't raised in a middle class white suburban dream where Daddy had a job and Mommy baked cookies every afternoon.

This is a popular artist that is calling for revolution and awakening millions to the ideas of anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism yet he still doesn't fit perfectly into your idea of what is good and right.

Not all of us are lucky enough to have the chances to develop our social consciences as some of us are spending our time simply trying to survive.

IT is a creature born out of white patriarchical dominance. I don't like or subscribe to misogynistic or homophobic views but that doesn't mean if I listen to an artist who does that I do as well.

Hiphop is riddled with such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't listen to it.

[Janine Melnitz]

It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own.
"Target"? I'm giving my opinion of him on a fucking message board. I stressed that finding him unlistenable is a personal thing for me, and agree that writing him off completely would be wrong -- though the fact that people are likely to do that points to why his lyrics are so unfortunate. Women and queers together make up the majority of working class people, and of brown and black people; it's revealing that you don't consider lyrics about raping and killing them "targeting our own".

So IT can be sexist and homophobic - oh well maybe he wasn't raised in a middle class white suburban dream where Daddy had a job and Mommy baked cookies every afternoon.
What, the "middle class" isn't sexist and homophobic? Patriarchal attitudes are proletarian? This is a lie brought to you by rich white people.

IT is a creature born out of white patriarchical dominance. I don't like or subscribe to misogynistic or homophobic views but that doesn't mean if I listen to an artist who does that I do as well.
No, but this does. (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?t=101899)

[Janine Melnitz]

And speaking of "targeting our own" (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=1367915#post1367915):

The simple fact that it is very hard to visit or learn about North Korea points to the obvious fact that there are human rights problems within that country.
It's easy to sit back and criticize a socialist state when you have made no contribution yourself. It is hard to fully critique Kim Jong-il if you are standing from the outside observing. You need to participate and contribute to DPRK culture if you hope to truly understand it. Do you know what the four elements of The Juche Idea are?

I like Kim Jong-il. I'm sure his obscenely luxurious lifestyle, paid for by North Korean workers, is offensive but what gives anyone the right to be offended?

ps I've seen Pol Pot live and I thought he was rather average.

[Rangi]

What was the point of the second post? Can we stick to the topic at hand?

[Black Dagger]

It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own.

I take it you're not a leftist?

[political_animal]

It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own. The Unabomber Manifesto critiques this aspect of leftism rather well. So IT can be sexist and homophobic - oh well maybe he wasn't raised in a middle class white suburban dream where Daddy had a job and Mommy baked cookies every afternoon.

This is a popular artist that is calling for revolution and awakening millions to the ideas of anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism yet he still doesn't fit perfectly into your idea of what is good and right.

Not all of us are lucky enough to have the chances to develop our social consciences as some of us are spending our time simply trying to survive.

IT is a creature born out of white patriarchical dominance. I don't like or subscribe to misogynistic or homophobic views but that doesn't mean if I listen to an artist who does that I do as well.

Hiphop is riddled with such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't listen to it.


Hmm, OK. So IT is a creature born out of white patriarchal dominance and wasn't lucky enough to have the chance to develop his social conscience and is thus homophobic and sexist, but by some freakish miracle of nature has grown up to be class-conscious and challenging of the system?!!!

[Yazman]

Immortal Technique isn't sexist or homophobic, he deliberately puts in extremely offensive stuff to piss people off. He's said this multiple times, he doesn't actually mean the deliberately offensive stuff. He doesn't actually mean he wants to crash a plane into your house when he says "you better watch what the fuck flies outta your mouth or Ima hijack a plane and fly it into your house."

He's just trying to get on the nerves of people, because USUALLY it will piss some people off, and if it pisses people off they'll mention it to others, who then go and listen to the music, hear what he has to say politically, get interested by it, then go and do their own research and hopefully get active politically. I know a few people who took this course all because of a few politically-charged artists like Immortal Technique and Rage Against The Machine.

He doesn't mean all that shit, its just a form of marketing that draws attention to the political stuff which he really does mean.

By the way, sorry about that shit I said about The Coup, I don't know what I was thinking. The Coup are fucking awesome, mad as hell marxists who tear it up every time.

I was thinking of Dead Prez, they are black nationalists and while a lot of leftists like them, I just feel uncomfortable as all fuck listening to music even if they're marxists, because when they're going off with all sorts of wack racist shit it puts me off. I do like some of their songs that don't have any of that bullshit, though. But in a lot of ways Dead Prez are very reactionary.. songs like "They Schools", "I'm A African", "Hell Yeah" are really fucking reactionary and really make me question whether DP are even on our side or not.

The Coup are fucking awesome though. I love "5 million ways to kill a CEO."

[dmcauliffe09]

It is true, many hip-hop artists advocate some form of populist black nationalism mixed with socialism. I'm black myself, but it makes me uncomfortable that people think the struggle is still a black one. True, racism exists, but in order to combat it, we all have to associate with each other to show that it cannot work. The revolution is much more than a black one, a white one, a Hispanic, Arab, Chinese, whatever the fuck one: it's the revolution of the entire proletariat.

[RedScare]

Immortal Technique isn't sexist or homophobic, he deliberately puts in extremely offensive stuff to piss people off. He's said this multiple times, he doesn't actually mean the deliberately offensive stuff. He doesn't actually mean he wants to crash a plane into your house when he says "you better watch what the fuck flies outta your mouth or Ima hijack a plane and fly it into your house."

He's just trying to get on the nerves of people, because USUALLY it will piss some people off, and if it pisses people off they'll mention it to others, who then go and listen to the music, hear what he has to say politically, get interested by it, then go and do their own research and hopefully get active politically. I know a few people who took this course all because of a few politically-charged artists like Immortal Technique and Rage Against The Machine.

He doesn't mean all that shit, its just a form of marketing that draws attention to the political stuff which he really does mean.


Yea, this is always what I got out of IT. Some of his songs are so over the top, so contradictory to the rest of his stuff, that this is the only way it makes sense. Ever listen to "Poverty of Philosophy"? If that's not leftist, I don't know what is.

[ibn Bruce]

I find I assume that things said are satirical when I disagree with them. In the case of Immortal Tech, I don't think I can dismiss his lyrics as such.

Something like 'and thats the primary reason, that I hate y'all faggots' is not satire, it is simply a reflection of the homophobic nature of where he came from. This does not however make it ok.

[An archist]

Immortal Technique isn't sexist or homophobic, he deliberately puts in extremely offensive stuff to piss people off. He's said this multiple times, he doesn't actually mean the deliberately offensive stuff. He doesn't actually mean he wants to crash a plane into your house when he says "you better watch what the fuck flies outta your mouth or Ima hijack a plane and fly it into your house."

He's just trying to get on the nerves of people, because USUALLY it will piss some people off, and if it pisses people off they'll mention it to others, who then go and listen to the music, hear what he has to say politically, get interested by it, then go and do their own research and hopefully get active politically. I know a few people who took this course all because of a few politically-charged artists like Immortal Technique and Rage Against The Machine.

He doesn't mean all that shit, its just a form of marketing that draws attention to the political stuff which he really does mean.

By the way, sorry about that shit I said about The Coup, I don't know what I was thinking. The Coup are fucking awesome, mad as hell marxists who tear it up every time.

I was thinking of Dead Prez, they are black nationalists and while a lot of leftists like them, I just feel uncomfortable as all fuck listening to music even if they're marxists, because when they're going off with all sorts of wack racist shit it puts me off. I do like some of their songs that don't have any of that bullshit, though. But in a lot of ways Dead Prez are very reactionary.. songs like "They Schools", "I'm A African", "Hell Yeah" are really fucking reactionary and really make me question whether DP are even on our side or not.

The Coup are fucking awesome though. I love "5 million ways to kill a CEO."

So you don't have a problem with clearly homophobic lyrics, but this upsets you?


White boy in the wrong place at the right time


Tellin me white man lies straight bullshit

Seriously, these are the only lines I could find in the songs you mentioned that could come close to being reactionary.

[Yazman]

So you don't have a problem with clearly homophobic lyrics, but this upsets you?

Its not that I don't have a problem with it, its just that I don't see it the way you see it because its not serious. The guy doesn't mean any of that shit. When he talks about raping your mother and crashing a plane into your house he isn't advocating rape and plane hijacking..

Dead Prez on the other hand actually DO mean it when they include black nationalism in their rap.. they openly support it. IT on the other hand is very active politically and he has stated many times he doesn't actually believe the extreme harsh shit, its just there for the shock value.

[Janine Melnitz]

Yazman, I've heard a little Dead Prez but not that much; are there more egregious examples of this "nationalism" than what An Archist quoted? Because right now the impression I'm getting is that a straight white guy is all upset by a black man harmlessly expressing distrust for white people, but doesn't mind if his favorite rapper talks about killing fags.

Also -- not that I think very much of your idea that a fucked-up statement can be made less fucked-up by saying elsewhere "lol naw i dint meen it" -- can you actually point to these interviews where IT makes it clear he's not a homophobe? I already quoted one where he makes the opposite pretty clear; there was another (that I'm afraid I can't dig up) where he ridiculed as anti-working-class any concern about homophobia, basically taking the old line of homosexuality as a "bourgeois vice" (something about homos drinking Starbucks).

[ibn Bruce]

'I'm down for running up on those crackers in they city hall'....


Sounds bad, if the word 'nigger' replaced 'cracker'... thing is, city hall IS full of crackers, so they are just being real :D

Besides their definition of 'black' is probably not what it might be assumed to be, they moved on from the old school 'black kings and queens' stuff long ago. They are more into Malcolm X's definition: 'the Irish are the Blacks of the English' kind of thing.

[Yazman]

Yazman, I've heard a little Dead Prez but not that much; are there more egregious examples of this "nationalism" than what An Archist quoted? Because right now the impression I'm getting is that a straight white guy is all upset by a black man harmlessly expressing distrust for white people, but doesn't mind if his favorite rapper talks about killing fags.

Also -- not that I think very much of your idea that a fucked-up statement can be made less fucked-up by saying elsewhere "lol naw i dint meen it" -- can you actually point to these interviews where IT makes it clear he's not a homophobe? I already quoted one where he makes the opposite pretty clear; there was another (that I'm afraid I can't dig up) where he ridiculed as anti-working-class any concern about homophobia, basically taking the old line of homosexuality as a "bourgeois vice" (something about homos drinking Starbucks).

I know there's an interview somewhere around where he specifically mentions that the offensive stuff in his lyrics doesn't reflect on his views, its just there for the shock value (the guy IS well known for his history and success in the battle rap circuit). I can't find this interview at the moment though, I will search around and find it a bit more. I am not actually trying to defend the lyrics in question; I am just putting it to you that he himself is not actually a homophobic person. I do want to point out though that the bit somebody mentioned, that section up there from the interview quoted is taken out of context: the question he was asked was about homophobia in hip hop and honestly what he is saying is correct in that he said hip hop never embraced the homosexual rights movements; the culture of hip hop as it is now is very much about proving manhood, bragging etc and he actually mentions earlier in relation to this issue that much of this is the result of Hollywood's portrayals and stereotyping and how this results in negative attitudes in hip hop with sexism and homophobia. The fact he uses homophobic slurs in his discussion of the issue definitely isn't cool and I' m not trying to defend it, but yeah. As I said if i can find the interview I was looking for earlier I will post it up, I will keep looking. Also something that is more of an issue with slang, in hip hop culture and sometimes street culture in general "faggot" doesn't really always refer to homosexuals or homosexuality in any way, and often when immortal technique and a lot of other rappers use it its simply a synonym for "punk" or "loser", you might not pick up on this if you don't know much about the culture though; this is not a denial that there is a lot of homophobia however because there is and its really fucked up and I oppose it 100%.

IT on sexism:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8zrysUbjCc

He has always taken a pretty strong stance in interviews against sexism and this is very much true, and his statements on the treatment of women and sexism especially in interviews confirm this. Check the video, speaking pretty strongly against mistreatment of women.


About Dead Prez:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ZwVGY4Snc

"whiteboy in the wrong place at the right time, soon as the car door open up he mine, roll up quick and put the pistol to his jaw, but the look on his face he prolly shitted in his drawls"

All this for a fucking Pizza Delivery Guy? LOL, fucking ridiculous. I think after this shit I need not say much more. Thuggery and hate crime is hardly something we should be advocating let alone making music videos promoting it. But here's more blatant racism:

"I hate callin niggas "niggas" so I'ma take it backwards but I got no love for whitey and love callin 'em crackas"

This is a line from the song "Ridin'" they did as a collabo. I mean I get if sometimes it might be used to attack "old white men" and their political power structures (and even then, targeting whites specifically? fucking please) but you can't honestly tell me thats what they're doing in that lyric.

The song "They schools" is just plain fucking reactionary. See, I would be ok with it if it was just built around the fact that a lot of propaganda gets taught in schools but in this song they are basically damning the entire education system, not to mention the sciences and arts. Telling people not to get an education is fucking reactionary, and telling people that any sort of education not focused on "life issues" is bad is also fucking reactionary. I can get the idea of what they're saying but advocating a wholesale abandonment of the education system because it's telling everybody "white man's lies" and is utterly useless? Get fucked:

"They schools cant teach us shit
My people need freedom, we tryin to get all we can get
All my high school teachers can suck my dick
Tellin me white man lies straight bullshit (echoes)
They schools aint teachin us, what we need to know to survive
(say what, say what)
They schools dont educate, all they teach the people is lies"

"Aint teachin us how to get crack out the ghetto
They aint teachin us how to stop the police from murdering us
And brutalizing us, they aint teachin us how to get our rent paid"

"Students fight the teachers and get took away in handcuffs
And if that wasnt enough, then they expel yall"

Yes because fighting the teachers is really going to help your situation, oh please:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[ibn Bruce]

Also something that is more of an issue with slang, in hip hop culture and sometimes street culture in general "faggot" doesn't really always refer to homosexuals or homosexuality in any way, and often when immortal technique and a lot of other rappers use it its simply a synonym for "punk" or "loser", you might not pick up on this if you don't know much about the culture though; this is not a denial that there is a lot of homophobia however because there is and its really fucked up and I oppose it 100%. Isn't the fact the 'faggot' is used synonymously with 'loser' or 'punk' more an example of that homophobia than anything else?


All this for a fucking Pizza Delivery Guy? LOL, fucking ridiculous. I think after this shit I need not say much more. Thuggery and hate crime is hardly something we should be advocating let alone making music videos promoting it. But here's more blatant racism
Here's the deal, THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN THIS SOCIETY AS RACISM AGAINST WHITE PEOPLE.

Racism refers to the systems of oppression created to justify slavery, colonialism and genocide. There is a difference between a recognition of cultural difference and racism, because cultural difference can occur outside of oppression, racism cannot.

When was the last time, as a White person, did you ever feel like your race would be an issue in a job interview? When was the last time you were worried that you might be looked down upon because of the colour of your skin? The power relationships that exist are completely different between a White, middle class man and a black, working class man, would you really say that the White man would be oppressed by being called a cracker? What about if the White dude calls the Black dude a nigger?

The Black man can say what he wants, he will still be working class and Black. Dead Prez say 'the average Black male, lives a third of his life in a gaol cell, because the world is controlled by the White males', would you disagree?

After all there is no reality to 'race' it is a construction after all, we ascribe meaning to it that it does not inherently have, thus at a basic level there is no harm calling someone with extra melanin one thing, and someone with less another. The thing is we are not dealing with a 'base situation'. We are dealing with a Hip Hop group in America. America, only a few generations away from slavery, where minorities are still the only ones who ride the bus. Where a Black man is more likely to go to gaol, be murdered, be on welfare or be shot by the police. For anti-White racism to exist, the playing field would have to be even. Its not.

(and that's not even to go into gender, religion or many other factors)

An inadequate reply (distress breeds incoherence) but hopefully you get my point.

[Yazman]

When was the last time, as a White person, did you ever feel like your race would be an issue in a job interview? When was the last time you were worried that you might be looked down upon because of the colour of your skin? The power relationships that exist are completely different between a White, middle class man and a black, working class man

I think you must have either totally forgotten where I live, or just never bothered to look at my location entry. I live in the Philippines. There aren't really any "working class black men"; there isn't really a history of that sort of racism here. This is also not to mention that in some places in the further south as a white person I actually have been looked down upon because of the colour of my skin, and it sucks because there's nothing you can do about it.


would you really say that the White man would be oppressed by being called a cracker? What about if the White dude calls the Black dude a nigger?

An ethnic slur is an ethnic slur, its both a fallacy in terms of argument and it is inherently reactionary in its usage. Revolutionary leftists should not be using racial slurs nor should we be defending those who would rather target "whitey crackers" simply because of their skin colour. A white working class person is not necessarily an oppressor, although they may be in a privileged position simply because of the colour of their skin they have no more power politically than the average black working class person.


Racism refers to the systems of oppression created to justify slavery, colonialism and genocide. There is a difference between a recognition of cultural difference and racism, because cultural difference can occur outside of oppression, racism cannot.

I don't really agree with this as a definition of racism in general. What about neo-nazis in South Africa? Institutional power does not need to be vested in a specific ethnic group in order for a racist ideology to exist. I would argue that a hate crime is a hate crime regardless of who your own ethnicity and that of the people you are targeting and that it is always reactionary to build an ideology around race or ethnicity or the targeting of a specific group in that manner. As a revolutionary leftist I get that there are many people oppressed in many ways in our movement but that oppression needs to be expressed through the lens of revolutionary anti-capitalism and reducing it to the level of hate crimes targeting white/black/asian/latino people is never progressive and never justified, even if you think it's perfectly ok.


The Black man can say what he wants, he will still be working class and Black.

Yet many do not apply this same standard to asians, whites or middle eastern people. This is clearly a double standard; it doesn't matter their ethnic background; workers are workers regardless, but this doesn't justify reactionary things like ethnic hatred.


Where a Black man is more likely to go to gaol, be murdered, be on welfare or be shot by the police. For anti-White racism to exist, the playing field would have to be even. Its not

Its not the institutions or the nature of black oppression that I'm questioning here, don't you dare bring that into this argument unless you have a good reason to because I seriously do not believe anybody even needs to question its validity or not.

The fact of the matter is, dead prez do have some songs that advocate a progressive message but this is not always true; that they would reduce revolutionary marxist thought to the level of anti-white hatred is fucking ridiculous and doesn't serve to galvanise workers at all.. it is quite alienating to know that dead prez would rather spend their resources making videos advocating gang-like thuggery specifically targeting an ethnicity rather than a class; it is alienating to know that dead prez would rather focus on "hating whitey" than informing and unifying as many workers as they possibly can.

There are better ways to communicate the oppression of black americans to other american populations, be they whites/asians/middle eastern/whatever, and you do not need to include racial/ethnic slurs and advocate their downfall in order to do this.

I will never support any movement or person whose politics includes ethnic hatred of any kind. It contradicts everything marxists advocate.

[political_animal]

Also something that is more of an issue with slang, in hip hop culture and sometimes street culture in general "faggot" doesn't really always refer to homosexuals or homosexuality in any way, and often when immortal technique and a lot of other rappers use it its simply a synonym for "punk" or "loser", you might not pick up on this if you don't know much about the culture please

Oh please! You want an example of why you are wrong...

Brand Nubian - Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down...

"...fuck up a faggot/Don't understand their ways/and I ain't down with gays"

I love hip hop but I've obviously not understood the entire cultural meaning of this line. I always thought it was homophobic but I'm glad I now know it isn't and just means a 'loser'.

[Yazman]

Oh please! You want an example of why you are wrong...

Brand Nubian - Punks Jump Up To Get Beat Down...

"...fuck up a faggot/Don't understand their ways/and I ain't down with gays"

I love hip hop but I've obviously not understood the entire cultural meaning of this line. I always thought it was homophobic but I'm glad I now know it isn't and just means a 'loser'.

I said it doesn't ALWAYS refer to homophobia. OF COURSE you can find dozens and dozens of examples as there are fucking tonnes of homophobes in hip hop and if you read my post I was never trying to defend them.

[Black Dagger]

The fact of the matter is, dead prez do have some songs that advocate a progressive message but this is not always true; that they would reduce revolutionary marxist thought to the level of anti-white hatred is fucking ridiculous and doesn't serve to galvanise workers at all.. it is quite alienating to know that dead prez would rather spend their resources making videos advocating gang-like thuggery specifically targeting an ethnicity rather than a class; it is alienating to know that dead prez would rather focus on "hating whitey" than informing and unifying as many workers as they possibly can.

I think you are projecting your own insecurities here.

I'm white and love DP (as do many other white friends of mine - your position is an outlier in my experience) - there's nothing 'racist' about em. I think you are (as a white person yourself) being intimidated by their militant rejection of (white) racism but you needn't be. Their lyrics target racist white folks, not all whites - 'whitey' isn't you - it's a racist cop, or structural racism. If you don't understand that then fine, but i find this insistence that DP are 'racist' just because they don't walk on eggshells around white folks a bit tiresome. DP are anti-racist, i think if you were capable of taking a less adversarial approach to their music (not hard considering white people probably make up most of their fans - as is increasingly common for popular hip-hop artists) you'd see and feel that. The focus of their music is, among other things, on the identification and rejection of racism, in personal or structural forms. You're completely misunderstanding their language and message.

[Yazman]

I think you are projecting your own insecurities here.

I'm white and love DP (as do many other white friends of mine - your position is an outlier in my experience) - there's nothing 'racist' about em. I think you are (as a white person yourself) being intimidated by their militant rejection of (white) racism but you needn't be. Their lyrics target racist white folks, not all whites - 'whitey' isn't you - it's a racist cop, or structural racism. If you don't understand that then fine, but i find this insistence that DP are 'racist' just because they don't walk on eggshells around white folks a bit tiresome. DP are anti-racist, i think if you were capable of taking a less adversarial approach to their music (not hard considering white people probably make up most of their fans - as is increasingly common for popular hip-hop artists) you'd see and feel that. The focus of their music is, among other things, on the identification and rejection of racism, in personal or structural forms. You're completely misunderstanding their language and message.

I did actually address this:


"whiteboy in the wrong place at the right time, soon as the car door open up he mine, roll up quick and put the pistol to his jaw, but the look on his face he prolly shitted in his drawls"

All this for a fucking Pizza Delivery Guy? LOL, fucking ridiculous. I think after this shit I need not say much more. Thuggery and hate crime is hardly something we should be advocating let alone making music videos promoting it. But here's more blatant racism:

"I hate callin niggas "niggas" so I'ma take it backwards but I got no love for whitey and love callin 'em crackas"

This is a line from the song "Ridin'" they did as a collabo. I mean I get if sometimes it might be used to attack "old white men" and their political power structures (and even then, targeting whites specifically? fucking please) but you can't honestly tell me thats what they're doing in that lyric.

[Black Dagger]

Yes, and i should also repeat what i have said:


Their lyrics target racist white folks, not all whites - 'whitey' isn't you - it's a racist cop, or structural racism. If you don't understand that then fine, but i find this insistence that DP are 'racist' just because they don't walk on eggshells around white folks a bit tiresome. DP are anti-racist, i think if you were capable of taking a less adversarial approach to their music (not hard considering white people probably make up most of their fans - as is increasingly common for popular hip-hop artists) you'd see and feel that. The focus of their music is, among other things, on the identification and rejection of racism, in personal or structural forms. You're completely misunderstanding their language and message.

The anecdote about the pizza guy is from the song 'hell yeah' which details a series of money-making schemes used to pay the bills, get food to eat etc. It's about overcoming poverty conditions not targetting white folks for hate crime, that is a ridiculous interpretation.

The references to 'whitey' and 'crackas' is exactly the stuff i was talking about in my last post - you don't understand the language DP use. 'Crackas' are not white communist folks like you - 'crackas' are racist, bigoted people and 'Whitey' is symbolic of this sentiment but on a structural level. You completley ignore the anti-racist theme of their music.

[Yazman]

The anecdote about the pizza guy is from the song 'hell yeah' which details a series of money-making schemes used to pay the bills, get food to eat etc. It's about overcoming poverty conditions not targetting white folks for hate crime, that is a ridiculous interpretation.

No shit, I actually mentioned myself it is from "hell yeah" and I posted the video:rolleyes:.. I don't get why you seem to think that message is ok; its ok to act like fucking thugs and mug pizza dudes who are just doing their job? They are workers, we should not be telling people that beating the hell out of and mugging pizza guys for their money & car is ok. This is not progressive at all.


The references to 'whitey' and 'crackas' is exactly the stuff i was talking about in my last post - you don't understand the language DP use. 'Crackas' are not white communist folks like you - 'crackas' are racist, bigoted people and 'Whitey' is symbolic of this sentiment but on a structural level. You completley ignore the anti-racist theme of their music.

First of all I never "completely ignored the anti-racist theme", I actually did acknowledge multiple times that some of their songs are good and progressive, just with the note that they also happen to advocate things that are contradictory to what most revolutionary leftists would advocate.

Secondly it doesn't matter how thick or thin the veil you put over an ethnic slur is, its still an ethnic slur. I don't give a fuck who they're referring to; many cultures had african slaves- would you be ok with them talking about 'dune coons' and 'sand niggers' or 'chinks' in reference to rich middle eastern or asian people who in their own times have also held african slaves? That shit is an ethnic slur and you don't need to use that in order to illustrate anti-racist themes or to educate people. That sort of language is not fucking cool.

[rioters bloc]

Oh boohoo Yazman, a Black man calls you a cracker and now you know what racism feels like. Did whitey get his ickle feelings hurt?

[Yazman]

Oh boohoo Yazman, a Black man calls you a cracker and now you know what racism feels like. Did whitey get his ickle feelings hurt?

This isn't about my personal feelings, it doesn't "hurt" me when morons like you talk trash like that.

It's more that you are propagating a double standard. Why is it that the only people around who can get away with using racial slurs are black americans? In all the countries I've been to nobody gets away with it; furthermore most political comrades despise such things.

Why is it seen as acceptable coming from black americans, but not asians, middle eastern, jewish, white, or other cultural groups?

I think it's even more hilarious seeing this from you rioters bloc considering a few years back you used to always be on in discrimination about "sexist language" and were into the whole "wimmin/womyn" thing but you seem to be ok with racial slurs.

At least Black Dagger is a committed comrade who, while I might disagree with him in this particular instance, always posts well thought out arguments and is challenging on a political level.. not to mention he backs up everything he says, I get what his argument is and its a fairly valid one.

[rioters bloc]

Worthless double-standard propagating fuck. Why the fucking double standard? Why is it that the only people around who can get away with using racial slurs are black americans? What the fuck gives you the right to say that shit? In all the countries I've been to nobody is ever able to get away with using racial slurs without getting their head disconnected!

Why is it seen as acceptable coming from black americans, but not asians, middle eastern, jewish, white, or other cultural groups?

Because the word cracker has historically informed connotations that are specific to the relationship between Black people and white people in America. Although that said, I've used the word cracker and whitey before as have other non-white people I know who aren't Black American, and the only people who have had an issue with it are people with crappy (read: liberal) anti-racist politics.

Also, what is with your defence of the bourgeois liberal education system? What's wrong with wanting to set up alternative education systems that is progressive and actually relevant to the lives of people who don't fit into the model of white middle-class student?

Edit: Just saw your edit - oh, it's on like Donkey Kong! But I have to go sleepies now. So til tomorrow.

[Yazman]

Because the word cracker has historically informed connotations that are specific to the relationship between Black people and white people in America.

The word nigger has historically informed connotations that are specific to the relationship between black people and white people in America, too. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER! Why doesn't it matter? Because the average person has moved past the idiocy that is labelling and classifying people according to their skin colour. Racism still exists, of course, but exploiting ethnic slurs really doesn't help your case.. shit like that creates warzones in some parts of the world.

Why do you have to refer to them by their skin colour? Capitalism is not just a bunch of white people conspiring to "keep the black man down", labelling capitalism as "whitey's work" implies to me a fundamental lack of understanding of the class system. There are just as many bourgeois blacks, arabs, asians and jews as there are whites. They are all capitalist fucks and they are collectively our enemy. Targeting "white people" is ridiculously narrow in scope and in mind. I don't know why you can't just target capitalists.

As far as anti-racism is concerned, I've been politically active in multiple countries now and not once have I ever known ethnic slurs and tension to be a useful form of educating different groups about how to combat racism. It just comes off as hypocritical.


Although that said, I've used the word cracker and whitey before as have other non-white people I know who aren't Black American, and the only people who have had an issue with it are people with crappy (read: liberal) anti-racist politics

I love how so many Americans from all political views have this ambiguous "liberal" term they refer to whenever they like to attack somebody. Not only is it stupid for you to point this out but it's entirely irrelevant; it doesn't serve as any sort of evidence or argument to support what you're saying so why even bother mentioning it? And as I said before, it comes to me as hilariously hypocritical that you are totally down with racial slurs and that that sort of language is just totally cool with you, but you were one of those vehemently objecting to "sexist language." So tell me; have you changed your views on sexist language now?


Also, what is with your defence of the bourgeois liberal education system? What's wrong with wanting to set up alternative education system that is progressive and actually relevant to the lives of people who don't fit into the mould of white middle-class student?

lol @ how you label the education system as a "liberal" one. That is quite funny. Seriously though I was never defending it, but Dead Prez wrote some pretty damn anti-intellectual lyrics there, and this is never a good thing. There are of course problems with the education system, many many fucked up problems, and given my job I could talk on this topic at length. Its just their objections and criticisms of the education system that I disagree with. They seem to take issue with being taught disciplinary subject matter (by discipline I am referring to the various sciences here) and take a pretty obvious anti-intellectual stance here. The idea that "schools can't teach us shit" and that somehow beating up teachers is cool doesn't fly with me. Not only that but... yeah there is a lot of propaganda in school but scrapping the entire curriculum and labelling ALL of it as "white man's lies" is fucking ridiculous.

I think given these lyrics they really don't even get the point of education:

"Aint teachin us how to get crack out the ghetto
They aint teachin us how to stop the police from murdering us
And brutalizing us, they aint teachin us how to get our rent paid"

I sympathise with the general idea that there are problems with schools but they aren't making an argument backed up by anything of substance. Given those lyrics it seems more like an attempt to co-opt legitimate movements opposing the current education for the general purpose of what they want; they aren't really giving any real evidence or illustrating WHAT is wrong with the education system or WHY; they just throw together a bunch of "oh my god white capitalists are bad and evil." If you want crack out of the ghetto, stop cops murdering people and get your rent paid, then go get fucking organised. School isn't there to teach people how to fight cops or the constant government-powered rain of white powder. Its there to educate people, give them a scientific background and most importantly, critical thinking.

[Led Zeppelin]

Well, I don't think they meant it as literally as you make it out to be.

I mean, I really like Pink Floyd's Another Brick In The Wall, and I don't think their message was that education is inherently bad, or that schools are inherently bad...

[The Feral Underclass]

Oh boohoo Yazman, a Black man calls you a cracker and now you know what racism feels like. Did whitey get his ickle feelings hurt?

Please do not use ad hominems. This constitutes a verbal warning.

[The Feral Underclass]

This isn't about my personal feelings, it doesn't "hurt" me when morons like you talk trash like that.

It's more that you're a worthless double-standard propagating fuck. Why is it that the only people around who can get away with using racial slurs are black americans? What the fuck gives you the right to say that shit? In all the countries I've been to nobody is ever able to get away with using racial slurs without getting their head disconnected!

Why is it seen as acceptable coming from black americans, but not asians, middle eastern, jewish, white, or other cultural groups?

I think it's even more hilarious seeing this shit from you rioters bloc considering a few years back you used to always be on in discrimination about "sexist language" and were into the whole "wimmin/womyn" thing but you seem to be ok with racial slurs. The hypocrisy is mindblowing.

At least Black Dagger is a committed comrade who, while I might disagree with him in this particular instance, always posts well thought out arguments and is challenging on a political level.. not to mention he backs up everything he says, I get what his argument is and its a fairly valid one.

You however have posted nothing of merit.

Please do not flame. This constitutes a verbal warning.

[rioters bloc]

I think it's even more hilarious seeing this shit from you rioters bloc considering a few years back you used to always be on in discrimination about "sexist language" and were into the whole "wimmin/womyn" thing but you seem to be ok with racial slurs. The hypocrisy is mindblowing.

Lmao. For you to compare the oppression of womyn to your perceived oppression of white people is laughable.

Honestly, I have absolutely no respect for white people who complain about racism against them, because more often than not they have no idea of what racism actually is and have done very little reading on the matter.

Black Dagger and ibn Bruce have already addressed your points (now there are two white men who I do respect, 'cos they know their shit and acknowledge their white/male privilege), I was merely pointing out how ridiculous it was for you to cry racism.

I cbf demolishing your last post bcause to be honest, it's not worth my time - doesn't look like you have become any less reactionary with regards to gender/race issues in the last few years and I'd rather use my time and energy on people who have semi-decent arguments to begin with. Suffice to say that I agree with BD and think that this is little more but you projecting your own insecurities about being a white man (who maybe has something to do with education? I don't know) and feel that Dead Prez's lyrics are a personal attack on you.

I'm sure that someone else will come and do it for me, anyway, and they'll probably do it better. I'm just back on for kicks ;)

[Yazman]

Oh god did you even read a word of what I said? Not once in the whole SIX FUCKING YEARS I'VE BEEN POSTING HERE have I ever said white americans were oppressed, EVER. YOU made that up. YOU created that statement. It's YOUR label. I do not think that at all. White americans are not oppressed at all.

It's not about race. It's not about white people. It's about YOU feeling the need to include somebody's skin colour when addressing them or talking about capitalists. I really couldn't care less whether a capitalist is white, black, asian, middle eastern, whatever, they are all the same. When I said racism I was not talking about institutional oppression; there doesn't need to be institutional oppression in order for a person to think they are superior because of their skin colour. Racism is often just an ideology, or not even thought out enough to constitute an ideology; sometimes it just comes out as "fuckin' blacks, kill them all" (as a few sudanese comrades have noted arabs in sudan have been known to comment on occasion).


I cbf demolishing your last post bcause to be honest, it's not worth my time - doesn't look like you have become any less reactionary with regards to gender/race issues in the last few years

LOL? You are labelling me as reactionary? WTF? Where does that claim even come from? This is the first real debate we have ever had, nor do you have any basis by which to label me reactionary. On what basis are you calling me sexist? I don't even KNOW where you got that from, considering I've not really said anything at all on sexism to you, and in all likeliness you wouldn't have a clue what my views are. I don't care if you want to spell it "womyn" or "wimmin". I think its very misguided from a purely linguistic point of view but at the end of the day you can spell it however you want. 90% of the sexist language debate I do actually agree with you on. But seriously, gender has nothing to do with this debate anyway.

WHY does your entire argument have to consist of a glorified ad hominem attack? I don't think any white americans are getting "oppressed" - its more than I don't get why you feel the need to point out their ethnicity.

You're calling me reactionary because I prefer ethnicity neutral language? WHY does somebody's ethnicity matter to you? We don't do it in the philippines, and the phils is one of the most ethnically varied places in the continent! Why does their GENDER matter to you? Why do you feel the need to insert that? A human is a human, their gender doesn't matter. Their ethnicity doesn't matter. Having played a major role in anti-racist movements before I have never known anti-racism (in my experience) to emphasise differentiating between people based on their ethnicity. In fact I find the key to destroying racism is to first of all destroy institutional racism, and second of all destroy racism as a SOCIAL phenomenon. The key to getting rid of the latter is to convince people that ethnicity, skin colour, national background DOESN'T MATTER! This is usually highly successful because SCIENTIFICALLY speaking evidence is overwhelmingly in our favour and thus strengthens our theoretical positions which hinge on the science and on philosophical notions of equality. Having headed up campaigns before I know as a fact that it's hard to convince people that race doesn't matter when there's one group constantly pointing out another group's skin colour all the time. Why Dead Prez would rather talk about hating whitey than hating oppressive capitalists and working with their comrades from all ethnicities (including white working class people) I don't know.

Seriously; if you can't/won't make an argument then leave your petty bullshit out of it because there's no reason to attack me. If you disagree with what I said then thats cool, but there's no reason to be insulting. It is their methods that I object to, not really their ideology. Their choice of words is very poor, and I don't think they have a very well thought out position on anti-racism. I doubt they have even done much in the way of real activism on the street and in the city to combat it. Groups like The Coup and The Herd have a much more well thought-out ideology.


Please do not flame. This constitutes a verbal warning.

You're right, it was out of line. It's just frustrating. I expect that sort of attitude in OI, not in the other forums. I fixed the post in question though.

[ibn Bruce]

I was walking along the road of life one day, content in my skin, in my position, with my politics, my intentions... then I changed a bit. Just a LITTLE bit, I started wearing a certain style of clothing. Not all the time, just some of the time. Things changed, I changed, the whole world around me seemed to have changed.

I started wearing clothes identified with a minority in the society I live in. I'm still white, still have the same beard, same hair length, same blue eyes, neutral aussie accent with a slight NZ twang and a bit of hip hop slang. But I never felt so different, so reviled as when I go on public transport in those clothes. Sure, I got called a terrorist a few times, my grandma disowned me, I had to leave 2 jobs in a row, but that wasn't the sum of it. That didn't encapsulate how it feels to have people walk deliberately away from you on the street, to see peoples expressions change as what you have on registers.

That feeling, that racism that I felt is NOTHING compared to that felt by my brothers and sisters who aren't white. Take away my clothes, and I will be just like everyone else, take away their clothes, get them to put on a suit and a tie, make them 'talk white', 'act white', conform... and they will STILL get that feeling. Still know that behind all of the pleasure at their 'assimilation', people still look at them like they are 'nothing but a little monkey' (to quote immortal tech).


Racism is not just words, it is an entire culture of oppression! It is a culture that tells people in the Phillipines to put on bleaching creams because White is beautiful. It is a culture that blocks and thwarts and not only does it act from without, it acts from within, making people hate themselves and try to become as alike to their oppressor as they can. It is symptomatic of colonialism and imperialism and capitalism indeed, but this makes it no less serious.

The solution to this is not 'sameness', it cannot happen like that, one cannot erase 500+ years of social conditioning in a few 'we are all alike'-hand-hold sessions, such systems of oppression must be SMASHED apart first, before anything else can replace them. This means that white people need to learn that they are no better, we need to have it shoved in our face, because it is not that non-White people have been pushed below us, it is us who have falsely raised ourselves above.

You, nor I can never define racism, because we are not on the recieving end.

You can never complain, never be offended when someone calls you a cracker, whitey, skip or any other term like that, because it does nothing to enforce any system of oppression, rather it comes from a movement to destroy the oppression that already exists. Come back in the distant future when the legacy of this culture of oppression has been torn apart, THEN we can talk about being colour blind, til then, you are doing nothing but reinforcing those systems that already exists.




Anyway since when is robbing someone a hate crime? White boy in the wrong place at the right time, they wouldv'e robbed him regardless of his skin colour! Secondly, I mean you are going to object to 'They Schools'? Did you even listen to the rest of the song? 'Tell us we only 3 fifths of Europeans', the song was specifically about the racist nature of schooling in America. I mean what would you call a system that enforces inferiority of non-white peoples EXCEPT white man lies?

[Yazman]

I was walking along the road of life one day, content in my skin, in my position, with my politics, my intentions... then I changed a bit. Just a LITTLE bit, I started wearing a certain style of clothing. Not all the time, just some of the time. Things changed, I changed, the whole world around me seemed to have changed.

I started wearing clothes identified with a minority in the society I live in. I'm still white, still have the same beard, same hair length, same blue eyes, neutral aussie accent with a slight NZ twang and a bit of hip hop slang. But I never felt so different, so reviled as when I go on public transport in those clothes. Sure, I got called a terrorist a few times, my grandma disowned me, I had to leave 2 jobs in a row, but that wasn't the sum of it. That didn't encapsulate how it feels to have people walk deliberately away from you on the street, to see peoples expressions change as what you have on registers.

That feeling, that racism that I felt is NOTHING compared to that felt by my brothers and sisters who aren't white. Take away my clothes, and I will be just like everyone else, take away their clothes, get them to put on a suit and a tie, make them 'talk white', 'act white', conform... and they will STILL get that feeling. Still know that behind all of the pleasure at their 'assimilation', people still look at them like they are 'nothing but a little monkey' (to quote immortal tech).

I understand well the feeling you communicate here as I have had similar situations in some of the places I've been. I'm not talking about institutional racism though. Calling people niggers or crackers doesn't help to solve the problem. It doesn't make anybody aware of institutional racism.


Racism is not just words, it is an entire culture of oppression! It is a culture that tells people in the Phillipines to put on bleaching creams because White is beautiful.

Live here and you will find that its simply not like that. Many people ARE told in subtle ways that "looking white is beautiful" but most people do not really pay much attention to this. Its not something that you could really call a "cultural value."


It is a culture that blocks and thwarts and not only does it act from without, it acts from within, making people hate themselves and try to become as alike to their oppressor as they can. It is symptomatic of colonialism and imperialism and capitalism indeed, but this makes it no less serious.

You're preaching to the choir here. I never disagreed with this. I don't know why you're bothering to say this; I have never disagreed with this and this is the same sort of stuff I tell people myself.


The solution to this is not 'sameness', it cannot happen like that, one cannot erase 500+ years of social conditioning in a few 'we are all alike'-hand-hold sessions, such systems of oppression must be SMASHED apart first, before anything else can replace them. This means that white people need to learn that they are no better, we need to have it shoved in our face, because it is not that non-White people have been pushed below us, it is us who have falsely raised ourselves above.

Again, you're preaching to the choir. Not much point saying this because it doesn't really contradict anything in my mind, except for that I never said 'sameness' was a SOLUTION, I am simply saying that using ethnic slurs doesn't help the cause. Its ad hominem. Equality is the goal, nobody ever said it's a "solution", It can't be the solution if its the goal as well as the starting point of our theory.. that would be somewhat circular and thus would render our theory nothing but fallacious. Although I don't agree with your sweeping statement that seems to imply that all white people are consciously raising ourselves above; I certainly do not see myself as "above" anybody because of their skin colour nor would I ever let somebody take a course of action based on that sort of belief.


You, nor I can never define racism, because we are not on the recieving end.

You can never complain, never be offended when someone calls you a cracker, whitey, skip or any other term like that, because it does nothing to enforce any system of oppression, rather it comes from a movement to destroy the oppression that already exists. Come back in the distant future when the legacy of this culture of oppression has been torn apart, THEN we can talk about being colour blind, til then, you are doing nothing but reinforcing those systems that already exists.

Its not about being colourblind. Slurs don't further the movement. If your anti-racist movement is build around slandering, rather than educating and building solidarity, there are fundamental problems with your movement. You seem to be ignoring the fact that I didn't make this specifically about blacks or whites; I mean it in a broad sense. As a worker I am oppressed by capitalists but I would never include name-calling as part of the theoretical materials or propaganda that I distribute. Its just fuckin' childish, and that african-americans do it seems to be something unique to their particular movement, as I have never encountered it in other oppressed anti-racist movements before. Usually they, you know, don't NEED to use ethnic slurs in order to gain support.

By including them as a part of accepted terminology in your theory or movement you are using the same tactics that neo-nazis use. It's playing on emotion and has no real basis but to evoke people's hatred. There are FUCKLOADS of anti-racist movements that never ever use ethnic slurs and they do just FINE without them! I don't agree with using pejorative terminology in any anti-racist, anti-sexist, anti-nationalist, or anti-capitalist movement at all. Its fucking childish; we don't NEED to resort to lowly insults in order to show people why our enemies are bad. We don't NEED to resort to emotional appeals in order to educate and motivate the movement.


Anyway since when is robbing someone a hate crime? White boy in the wrong place at the right time, they wouldv'e robbed him regardless of his skin colour!

I object to this primarily because they are advocating taking money away from the working class who are already in enough trouble as it is. I don't see how you can justify attacks on workers like this and still advocate freeing them. Nobody should be robbing other workers; they are struggling just as much as every other worker out there. If you absolutely must target somebody, don't target the fucking pizza boy for fuck's sake. In regards to the hate crime comment, it's not really; It just seems very unlikely that they would advocate doing this to an african-american pizza bo- actually, I take it back. Given what they are advocating here - robbing fellow workers - they probably WOULD do it.


Secondly, I mean you are going to object to 'They Schools'? Did you even listen to the rest of the song? 'Tell us we only 3 fifths of Europeans', the song was specifically about the racist nature of schooling in America. I mean what would you call a system that enforces inferiority of non-white peoples EXCEPT white man lies?

Read what I said. I don't object to the concept behind the song or the basic message of it. What I object to, is the WAY they come to the conclusions they come to. The education system is fucked up, but they aren't so much legitimately interested in education reform; you can clearly see in the lyrics that they are using it as a platform by which to argue against racism in general. Which is ok with me, but they shouldn't be hijacking education reform.

[rioters bloc]

Oh god did you even read a word of what I said?

Would it bug you if I said no? ;)

[dmcauliffe09]

Wow there's some conversation here that definitely diverges from the original topic. Not to say it's not interesting...

[Yazman]

Would it bug you if I said no? ;)

It wouldn't bug me, it just shows to me that you have a closed mind and discussing anything with you is pointless.


Wow there's some conversation here that definitely diverges from the original topic. Not to say it's not interesting...

Yeah, it does diverge greatly and would perhaps be best suited somewhere else.

[Chicano Shamrock]

It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own. The Unabomber Manifesto critiques this aspect of leftism rather well. So IT can be sexist and homophobic - oh well maybe he wasn't raised in a middle class white suburban dream where Daddy had a job and Mommy baked cookies every afternoon.

This is a popular artist that is calling for revolution and awakening millions to the ideas of anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism yet he still doesn't fit perfectly into your idea of what is good and right.

Not all of us are lucky enough to have the chances to develop our social consciences as some of us are spending our time simply trying to survive.

IT is a creature born out of white patriarchical dominance. I don't like or subscribe to misogynistic or homophobic views but that doesn't mean if I listen to an artist who does that I do as well.

Hiphop is riddled with such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't listen to it.
LMAO at you. What's with the whole middle class white thing you are on about? I wasn't born into a white family where mommy made cookies every day. What does that have anything to do with being homophobic? That's just stupid.

The problem is not that he is homophobic. The problem is that he fronts about equality and socialism and then is homophobic.

I personally think his style is pretty good but I am not a fan because of his content. I like more real shit like A Tribe Called Quest and KRS-One.




I agree with Yazman about Dead Prez not sitting right with me when they make racist comments towards whites. Also they push black and brown power... Hey I'm all for Chicano power but once you start adding extras and leaving out others in your music it doesn't fly in my book. Although the Dead Prez situation is really a much much smaller problem when put up against IT being homophobic. DP is not as blatant and can be justified at times. The word Cracker comes from slave days when the whip would make a cracking noise. Calling your boss a cracker has historical value. Talking about how the school books are white washed is a factual observation. Here in the US our history books are justification after justification for white males committing crime after crime. Our history books start with Columbus coming over as our messiah and mention pretty much nothing of the killing he brought upon the natives. We even have a holiday for this man who killed many people and stole their land. Calling a group of minorities(queers) derogatory names is a lot different than talking shit about our masters.

[Led Zeppelin]

Yeah, it does diverge greatly and would perhaps be best suited somewhere else.

I have split the discussion. :)

[Bitter Ashes]

If you're a Dutch MP who wants to show an anti-theist film then you're deported. If you're a rapper who wants to have a homphobic rally, whoops, I mean gig, then you're welcomed with open arms.
Talk about hypocracy. :rolleyes:

[Revy]

Immortal Technique's latest album doesn't contain any homophobia, it is the earlier albums that do. I suppose that means he has changed, I don't know. On his MySpace blog in May 2008, he wrote something criticizing the bans on gay marriage calling them nonsense sideline distractions.

People shouldn't make excuses for homophobic lyrics at all. Especially if this person is claiming to be some kind of revolutionary, it is all the more disgusting.

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Dead Prez on the other hand actually DO mean it when they include black nationalism in their rap.. they openly support it. IT on the other hand is very active politically and he has stated many times he doesn't actually believe the extreme harsh shit, its just there for the shock value.[/quote]

Dead Prez introduced IT to political activism; they mentored him.

What you said about saying homophobic stuff to draw people into his political stuff...is that not contradictory? I'll say conservative stuff to get people into the left wing?


DP...They Schools they say at the end "Dont get me wrong I love education". They want a good education not no education as was suggested earlier.
Hell Yeah is about pimping the system not the inocent white workers.




One question on Mos Def...is he homophobic. On "The Rape Over" he says "quasi homosexuals are runing this rap shit" but I cant see any mention of it on the internet all the controversy is about his comment on an Israeli.

[brigadista]

And I mean fuck, let me stop this whole "Being offended by homophobia and misogyny means you don't understand hip-hop!!!" bullshit. Tech's assertion that "the culture was based around proving one's manhood" is pretty instructive of the bullshit behind this accusation: were MC Lyte, The Real Roxanne, Queen Latifah, Eve, Lauryn Hill, K-Swift, Da Brat, Missy, Rye Rye, and M.I.A. trying to "prove their manhood" when they entered the rap game?

Fuck apologists for patriarchy, seriously. That's fucking vile.


dont forget Roxanne Shante!!!!!!!

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own. The Unabomber Manifesto critiques this aspect of leftism rather well.

Fuck you. No homophobe or sexist is "my own" nor are they a leftist.

No expectations!



So IT can be sexist and homophobic - oh well maybe he wasn't raised in a middle class white suburban dream where Daddy had a job and Mommy baked cookies every afternoon.

If you said that near me i would kick you into a big bloody puddle.

Ok lets get the established as it stands neither me nor me close mates are sexist or homophobic out of them I am the only leftist. My mates arnt sexist because A - "its bang outta order" B - "Ya wont get laid if you dont treat women as equals". Homophobia is also "bang out" and also "gay people are like us but they like men and thats their business".

So as you can see I must be "middle class" - well i would say my dad is but my mother is working class and since I live with her and since its her wages that feed me , cloth me and house me id have to say im working class. My mates are also working class.

Ang on though how many of us are whit. Will I suppose apart from my korean mate we would all be white. Yet i am yet too see any proof being black people or people in black areas cant helpthemselves and are "naturally" sexist and homophobic.

Suburban ? since i grew up in south london and south east kent i would hardly say either of those areas are suburban


Daddy does indeed have a job and so does my mother (who works from 9 - half 7 each day - and i was appalled to here that she used to spend almost all her wages on child care when i was at preschool.


So bassicly what im trying to say is that yes IT may be prolier then though but hes still a ****. Being working class is not an excuse to be a ****.



This is a popular artist that is calling for revolution and awakening millions to the ideas of anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism yet he still doesn't fit perfectly into your idea of what is good and right.

Sorry he dosent fit in the slightest. I view him as a piece of dirt.


Not all of us are lucky enough to have the chances to develop our social consciences as some of us are spending our time simply trying to survive.



Your right obviously homophobia and sexism are all things that should be permitted in working class communities.

Oh fuck off your idea of the Nobel savage of the working class is quite simply patronizing and disgusting .


IT is a creature born out of white patriarchical dominance. I don't like or subscribe to misogynistic or homophobic views but that doesn't mean if I listen to an artist who does that I do as well.

Its funny isnt it how you jump to your own defense against accusations of homophobia and sexism when none have being made against you.

(until now)



Hiphop is riddled with such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't listen to it.


How about you go lie infront of a bus?

i do not view hiphop as sacred ground where reactionary shit is permitable.

[Black Dagger]

One question on Mos Def...is he homophobic. On "The Rape Over" he says "quasi homosexuals are runing this rap shit" but I cant see any mention of it on the internet all the controversy is about his comment on an Israeli.

I don't think i've heard the song you mention but i wouldn't be suprised. Lots of artists who don't usually have homophobic language/homophobia in their lyrics might have a song or two that does. Like The Roots or even the seemingly infamous Dead Prez.

[Module]

http://www.revleft.com/vb/../revleft/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../showthread.php?p=1369340#post1369340)
It really cracks me up how leftists continually target their own. The Unabomber Manifesto critiques this aspect of leftism rather well. So IT can be sexist and homophobic - oh well maybe he wasn't raised in a middle class white suburban dream where Daddy had a job and Mommy baked cookies every afternoon.
This kind of attitude really makes me sick. This isn't the first time you've made some off comments on here, though, is it?
You actually think sexism and homophobia only exists amongst working class people? That's just self evidently absurd, and god knows why you even thought anybody would agree with that.
Or was that just some desperate attempt to justify your ridiculous double standard by claiming it's the 'working class' opinion to take? Either way, you're a moron.


This is a popular artist that is calling for revolution and awakening millions to the ideas of anti-capitalism and anti-imperialism yet he still doesn't fit perfectly into your idea of what is good and right.Somehow I doubt you'd be acting the same way if he was a white country singer writing lyrics about 'dumb niggers'.


Not all of us are lucky enough to have the chances to develop our social consciences as some of us are spending our time simply trying to survive.

IT is a creature born out of white patriarchical dominance. I don't like or subscribe to misogynistic or homophobic views but that doesn't mean if I listen to an artist who does that I do as well.Well, I, for one, couldn't listen to music like that. I would find it impossible to enjoy music like that which is so personally offensive. In the same way I couldn't enjoy white nationalist music. Or, no, not quite in the same way. I'm not going to claim I am as personally hurt by racism as I am by sexism and homophobia - I don't know what racism could be like (and being called a 'cracker' wouldn't count). I do understand the seriousness of racism, the impact of racist attitudes in our society and what they actually mean for some people, so of course I would reject white nationalist music, as I would reject any sort of racism, as a leftist, and as somebody who has respect for those people who are materially effected by racism.

I absolutely hate it when so-called 'leftist' men freely maintain friendships with other men who they know are sexist towards women. I hate it because social prejudice is not something to be rejected by specifically one socially oppressed section of society while their so-called 'allies' sit back and wait for change to occour, whilst continuing to acknowledge and respect those who hold and perpetuate reactionary, oppressive social attitudes simply because they don't effect them. If you sit back and tolerate, or ignore those attitudes simply because you have the luxury to do so then in my opinion you cannot call yourself anti-sexist/racist/homophobia or a leftist.


Hiphop is riddled with such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you shouldn't listen to it.
And the revolutionary left rejects such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you should fuck off?

[Chicano Shamrock]

I don't think i've heard the song you mention but i wouldn't be suprised. Lots of artists who don't usually have homophobic language/homophobia in their lyrics might have a song or two that does. Like The Roots or even the seemingly infamous Dead Prez.
I don't really know what he meant by that part but it is a pretty good song.
qdT19ocRSL8

[Sean]

I absolutely hate it when so-called 'leftist' men freely maintain friendships with other men who they know are sexist towards women. I hate it because social prejudice is not something to be rejected by specifically one socially oppressed section of society while their so-called 'allies' sit back and wait for change to occour, whilst continuing to acknowledge and respect those who hold and perpetuate reactionary, oppressive social attitudes simply because they don't effect them. If you sit back and tolerate, or ignore those attitudes simply because you have the luxury to do so then in my opinion you cannot call yourself anti-sexist/racist/homophobia or a leftist.
That's a damn near impossible standard I doubt is achievable without resorting to a compound/seige lifestyle, and what the hell is the point of having revolutionary ideas that you only think a few people are worthy of speaking to about? You're thinking of the Church of Scientology Des; while there are no skinheads in my social circle, I'm not about to "disconnect" from my mother or other family members because they don't adhere to my beliefs. Its an easy attitude to have when you're younger and your social circles are clearly defined crowds, scenes etc. but it just doesn't pan out that way later on. I try to work on people as much as I can, of course, but being a lefty isn't the same as gaining admittance to a super sweet 16th birthday party. Cliques are a luxury of youth and money in general, a lot of working class people are just thrown together by circumstance or blood relation.

[Honggweilo]

"fdsfgs" - Stalin

[Yazman]

What you said about saying homophobic stuff to draw people into his political stuff...is that not contradictory? I'll say conservative stuff to get people into the left wing?

No. You're missing the point. He's not saying homophobic stuff specifically; he used to just include shocking things in general (and the occasional homophobic-sounding thing was part of that), just because he says, "or else I'll hijack a plane and fly it into your house, and slit your throat so when you scream only blood comes out" it doesn't mean he actually wants to do that or supports it when people do shit like that. Its just shocking and when people post stuff like, "oh my god this guy immortal technique is really vicious" it piques people's interest even if its negativity. Its just the idea that "no publicity is bad" as they say. I'm not defending it, homophobia is lame as fuck and IT is wrong to have exploited it in the past to shock people.

He generally doesn't do it anymore. There isn't any stuff like that on his recent album.


And the revolutionary left rejects such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you should fuck off?

I don't think everybody can be perfect or that we should call them the enemy because of a SINGLE VIEW. This is a case where we are better off not excluding them, rather working on them over time and changing their views as best we can. I think your black & white view on this is quite silly; that a guy who raps about revolution, overthrowing capitalism and educating people about the class system, society, racism, where drugs in the US come from, etc is the enemy because of one view. I don't buy it. You are saying all or nothing; that he should be exactly like us in every way or else he's just as bad as full-blown capitalists who rap about bling and fucking hos and shooting whiteys.


Somehow I doubt you'd be acting the same way if he was a white country singer writing lyrics about 'dumb niggers'.

Racism tends to be something that manifests in the right-wing of politics in particular; its a fairly exclusive thing to certain groups, politically speaking. This isn't so with sexism - people of all forms and ethnicities can be sexist - so its harder to exclude them based on that view. We SHOULD attack their sexist views relentlessly of course but its not feasible to just say "Everybody who holds a sexist view is automatically as bad as capitalists and fascists."

[Vanguard1917]

I think you are projecting your own insecurities here.

I'm white and love DP (as do many other white friends of mine - your position is an outlier in my experience) - there's nothing 'racist' about em. I think you are (as a white person yourself) being intimidated by their militant rejection of (white) racism but you needn't be. Their lyrics target racist white folks, not all whites - 'whitey' isn't you - it's a racist cop, or structural racism. If you don't understand that then fine, but i find this insistence that DP are 'racist' just because they don't walk on eggshells around white folks a bit tiresome. DP are anti-racist, i think if you were capable of taking a less adversarial approach to their music (not hard considering white people probably make up most of their fans - as is increasingly common for popular hip-hop artists) you'd see and feel that. The focus of their music is, among other things, on the identification and rejection of racism, in personal or structural forms. You're completely misunderstanding their language and message.

I like dead prez too; but i also recognise that they're wrong roughly 75% of the time. And sometimes they're really wrong.

[Black Dagger]

Sure, but being 'wrong' - i.e. having 'flawed' politics isn't the same as calling them 'racist [sic]'!

[Yazman]

Sure, but being 'wrong' - i.e. having 'flawed' politics isn't the same as calling them 'racist [sic]'!

I think the post got lost in the shuffle, but my post at the bottom of page 2 of this thread I comment on this. "Racist" may not be the best term but perhaps 'prejudiced' is a better term. Its the name-calling I disagree with; it doesn't help and I don't like supporting any revolutionary leftist who has to use name-calling as part of his argument. This might be because of my heavily scientific outlook, but any sort of name-calling, doesn't sit well with me, especially because its an emotional appeal - a tactic that we as revolutionary leftists, especially the marxists should be avoiding - we claim to be scientific but at the same time support emotional appeals in movements?

Forget the name calling. Its silly, childish, and on the edge of fallacy.

[synthesis]

This thread helps me to understand why the radical left is completely irrelevant right now.

We prefer moral indignation over sober, openminded analysis of cause and effect; we prefer passing judgment over deriving solutions from our analysis; we prefer exclusion over taking steps to implement our solutions without feeling the need to project our "moral superiority" while doing so.


I don't understand the disconnect between people being anti-racist but then quite happily being homophobic or sexist and then not understanding such a disparity.What a stupid thing to say. I'm with you on disagreeing with it, but it shouldn't be hard to understand. Imagine living in a ghetto and having to listen to affluent white women and gays arguing that they're just as oppressed as you are. It just wouldn't look the same, would it?

People have never been collectively deprived of material necessities and economically "leveled" with the specific intention of cheapening their labor as a commodity except on a racial, religious or ethnic basis.


I'm not a latecomer to hip hop, know full well what the four elements are and enjoy a good political rant but have always been uneasy that whilst fighting against racism, others were quite happy to be homophobic. Why should we accept homophobia as 'artistic licence'?Because homophobes are usually uneducated and have probably never known any openly gay people in their life. The solution is education, and when you're addressing adults, that requires dialogue; you all seem to prefer monologue.


I've heard a little Dead Prez but not that much; are there more egregious examples of this "nationalism" than what An Archist quoted?Dead Prez said in an interview that the only thing white people have to offer to their political ideology is their money, and that's not even much of a paraphrase.

And the funny thing is, I don't really give a shit. If you're not black, you can never fully understand the problems facing black people in this country.



I love hip hop but I've obviously not understood the entire cultural meaning of this line. I always thought it was homophobic but I'm glad I now know it isn't and just means a 'loser'."Machismo" isn't something unique to rap. It's often present in poor communities where sometimes the dignity of "being a man" is all you really have.


Please do not use ad hominems. This constitutes a verbal warning."Ad hominem" is not a fallacy in an argument like this. The leftist definition of "majority" has always been "the group that is not oppressed." A majority can never truly understand oppression on the level of their counterpart minority.

It is therefore a tautology to argue that white people can never truly understand what it is to be a victim of racism, the same as sexism and homophobia. And that lack of understanding leads people to say some pretty stupid things, as we've seen in this thread.


I object to this primarily because they are advocating taking money away from the working class who are already in enough trouble as it is.The point of that Dead Prez song was to advocate robbing white people instead of black people. That's why Dead Prez and Immortal Technique have never collaborated - the latter specifically said that he had more in common with a poor white person than a rich black person.


No homophobe or sexist is "my own" nor are they a leftist.What a surprise, someone else who feels they have the exclusive right to define the word "leftist."


And the revolutionary left rejects such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you should fuck off?Re-read the first sentence in this post.

[Yazman]

I agree with just about everything you've said Kun Fana. However:


The point of that Dead Prez song was to advocate robbing white people instead of black people.

Thats right; this sort of prejudice is fucking ridiculous. They don't even make a class basis for it - its just a blind targeting of whites in general. If they were targeting rich whites I would at least get it because its rich people. But they are advocating robbing pizza dudes etc. which is taking money from the working class. This is really bad shit as far as marxism is concerned.

My comments on the rest:


We prefer moral indignation over sober, openminded analysis of cause and effect; we prefer exclusion over deriving solutions from our analysis and implementing them without feeling the need to project our "moral superiority" while doing so.

There do tend to be "moral outrages" on revleft sometimes and its quite annoying. Rather than looking at things in their own context people will tend to go through the "moral outrage" and then a kneejerk reaction. It's quite annoying.


Because homophobes are usually uneducated and have probably never known any openly gay people in their life. The solution is education, and when you're addressing adults, that requires dialogue; you all seem to prefer monologue.

Exactly. I have been arguing against the idea that we should automatically classify somebody as an enemy the second they come out with something like this - its quite ridiculous and doesn't help us at all. We need to be educating people and arguing with people to show them the merit of our views, rather than simply saying,"you are the enemy if you hold X view. I will never associate with you!"


Dead Prez said in an interview that the only thing white people have to offer to their political ideology is their money, and that's not even much of a paraphrase.

And the funny thing is, I don't really give a shit. If you're not black, you can never fully understand the problems facing black people in this country.

Perhaps you are right, perhaps not. However that particular line of discussion is beside what I want to point out - surely it is better to build links between oppressed groups rather than alienating them on the basis of gender/ethnicity/sexual preference/culture? I feel that the sort of name-calling and exclusion where one will say, "you are a nigger, you are a whitey, you are a homo, you are a ***** and therefore I will not work with you in a revolutionary movement" doesn't help us. I get that not everybody can necessarily make major contributions to every movement but we shouldn't be targeting each other the way Dead Prez advocates we should.


What a stupid thing to say. I'm with you on disagreeing with it, but it shouldn't be hard to understand. Imagine living in a ghetto and having to listen to affluent white women and gays arguing that they're just as oppressed as you are. It just wouldn't look the same, would it?

People have never been collectively deprived of material necessities and economically "leveled" with the specific intention of cheapening their labor as a commodity except on a racial, religious or ethnic basis.

Agree 100%. Particularly with the first paragraph. The most common failure I see is the failure to examine it in its own context and if you don't do this, you will probably never be able to gain insight or be able to educate them as to why they may be wrong about it. Some people REFUSE to understand it because they view it as "below" them without looking at the context - a clear failure of their thought process and demonstrative of the moral outrage/kneejerk reaction.


What a surprise, someone else who feels they have the exclusive right to define the word "leftist."

Yeah. I don't really need to say much more on this than you already have.


"Machismo" isn't something unique to rap. It's often present in poor communities where sometimes the dignity of "being a man" is all you really have.

Yeah, pretty much. Its often the last strand of dignity you have that you can hold onto in environments where everything else can be taken away. Racism, combined with the economic oppression of capitalism and often the cultural and religious oppression of immigrants in particular can take away so much that there is really little left in the way of dignity. You're exactly right.

On the other person's statement:


And the revolutionary left rejects such prejudices. If you don't like it then maybe you should fuck off?

We reject the prejudices themselves, not the people who may hold them. We should be examining WHY they hold those prejudices in the first place and then look at the context in which they are held. Only by doing this can we ever truly hope to remove them.

[synthesis]

Thats right; this sort of prejudice is fucking ridiculous. They don't even make a class basis for it - its just a blind targeting of whites in general. If they were targeting rich whites I would at least get it because its rich people. But they are advocating robbing pizza dudes etc. which is taking money from the working class. This is really bad shit as far as marxism is concerned.The point of the song was to advocate robbing white people instead of black people. Let me break it down for you.

You have to remember Dead Prez' intended audience here. Remember that half of their first album (Let's Be Free) consisted of songs about I Ching, vegetarianism, and historical awareness; I suppose they shouldn't have been surprised to find that 90% of their concert audiences were dread-locked white college students.

So their second album was called "Revolutionary But Gangsta" and they started talking about crime, drinking, weed, and so on; they were obviously trying to appeal to a different audience here, and depending on your point of view, they either compromised their leftism or synthesized it to introduce it to a new audience.

"Hell Yeah" - the song in question - was the single off this album, obviously intended to reach a mass audience. And the genius thing about the song was that it took all the prerequisites of an effective pop-rap single - catchy hook, solid flow, and a beat that sounds good with subwoofers, not to mention a remix with Jay-Z - but they flipped the script in terms of the subject matter.

Most "gangsta rap" talks about doing bad things to other black people - selling them crack, robbing them, killing them, and so on - and what Dead Prez was really saying was, "If you have to rob someone, make it a white person instead of a black person - someone from outside your impoverished community. If you have to defraud, defraud the government, the banks, and the corporations." You have to listen to the whole song, and more importantly watch the video, to understand that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lVDEDvob2U4

Now, a good portion of their message is irresponsible bullshit. That credit card scam would get you caught quicker than O.J. Simpson in a sports collectibles store. But there's something most people here don't quite understand about their intended audience.

In our focus on "the working class" we tend to ignore poor non-proletarians who (correctly) perceive that both the education and employment available to them are designed to put them in a certain place and keep them there. It is therefore only in times of great solidarity (or necessity) that Marxists have been able to capture the so-called "lumpenproletariat," who otherwise turn to religion and/or crime as a source of meaning, guidance, income, and a degree of power over their everyday lives.

The obvious intention of the song, therefore, was to argue if you must commit crime, do so without negatively affecting the community in which you live. The point was not to advocate robbing white workers but to try to instill some degree of political consciousness among those who have already taken up crime as a means of living.

Again, you can see this as compromise or you can see it as an attempt to meet a politically stagnant audience "half-way," so to speak.


Exactly. I have been arguing against the idea that we should automatically classify somebody as an enemy the second they come out with something like this - its quite ridiculous and doesn't help us at all. We need to be educating people and arguing with people to show them the merit of our views, rather than simply saying,"you are the enemy if you hold X view. I will never associate with you!"Absolutely. I remember something a friend played for me once, one of those tracks that's basically spoken-word over a beat, kind of like "Poverty of Philosophy." It was a guy who talked about how we should conceive of racism as something people do and not as something people are.

He explained that it is much easier and more productive to convince someone that something they said or did is racist than to convince them that what they did means that they are a racist; this is because the dialogue is about something they did that was in error rather than a judgment of their character and their humanity. If you choose the latter, you're effectively arguing that their entire life is guided by bigotry. That's not only counter-productive, it's also nearly impossible to prove in most cases.

That's why you get all the "I'm not a racist, but [something racist]" type arguments. And this is true for other types of discrimination, as well. No one wants to be thought of as a bigot, but most people (even people who post here) have said or done bigoted things in the past. The point is to educate them, not to attack them as a person and exclude them from taking part in your political agenda.

(P.S., if anyone happens to know the song I'm talking about, I'd love to get a link.)

[Yazman]

Again, you can see this as compromise or you can see it as an attempt to meet a politically stagnant audience "half-way," so to speak.

Yeah, I get what you mean. Looking at it that way I can see the logic in this, you make a good argument (and you've never targeted me personally to make your points, unlike some of the others in here). Instilling some sort of political thought is better than NO political thought and its a step towards greater revolutionary ideals. I see what you mean, it makes sense. I still think it sucks that they target whites specifically but in its context I can see the message, so yeah that does make sense. They could do a better job of delivering it, though.


He explained that it is much easier and more productive to convince someone that something they said or did is racist than to convince them that what they did means that they are a racist; this is because the dialogue is about something they did that was in error rather than a judgment of their character and their humanity. If you choose the latter, you're effectively arguing that their entire life is guided by bigotry. That's not only counter-productive, it's also nearly impossible to prove in most cases.

That's why you get all the "I'm not a racist, but [something racist]" type arguments. And this is true for other types of discrimination, as well. No one wants to be thought of as a bigot, but most people (even people who post here) have said or done bigoted things in the past. The point is to educate them, not to attack them as a person and exclude them from taking part in your political agenda.

Yes thats exactly it, and you make a very good point about discussing things they say or do rather than resort to simple character assassination. A lot of the people who hold these views are struggling to keep their dignity anyway so attacking them as poor character-wise or poor examples of humanity doesn't sit well, especially if they are peoples who have traditionally been viewed as subhuman in their own environment for whatever reason. It's much better to argue against specific examples. Particularly because then you can just keep it to the facts rather than some sort of indictment of the people themselves.

[Pogue]

Fuck you. No homophobe or sexist is "my own" nor are they a leftist.

No expectations!



If you said that near me i would kick you into a big bloody puddle.

Ok lets get the established as it stands neither me nor me close mates are sexist or homophobic out of them I am the only leftist. My mates arnt sexist because A - "its bang outta order" B - "Ya wont get laid if you dont treat women as equals". Homophobia is also "bang out" and also "gay people are like us but they like men and thats their business".

So as you can see I must be "middle class" - well i would say my dad is but my mother is working class and since I live with her and since its her wages that feed me , cloth me and house me id have to say im working class. My mates are also working class.

Ang on though how many of us are whit. Will I suppose apart from my korean mate we would all be white. Yet i am yet too see any proof being black people or people in black areas cant helpthemselves and are "naturally" sexist and homophobic.

Suburban ? since i grew up in south london and south east kent i would hardly say either of those areas are suburban


Daddy does indeed have a job and so does my mother (who works from 9 - half 7 each day - and i was appalled to here that she used to spend almost all her wages on child care when i was at preschool.


So bassicly what im trying to say is that yes IT may be prolier then though but hes still a ****. Being working class is not an excuse to be a ****.



Sorry he dosent fit in the slightest. I view him as a piece of dirt.



Your right obviously homophobia and sexism are all things that should be permitted in working class communities.

Oh fuck off your idea of the Nobel savage of the working class is quite simply patronizing and disgusting .


Its funny isnt it how you jump to your own defense against accusations of homophobia and sexism when none have being made against you.

(until now)




How about you go lie infront of a bus?

i do not view hiphop as sacred ground where reactionary shit is permitable.

Mint post, top stuff, big up the working class and

OH SOUTH LONDON

IS WONDERFUL

OH SOUTH LONDON IS WONDERFUL

ITS FULL OF BLACKS, WHITES AND ASIANS (etc)

OH SOUTH LONDON IS WONDERFUL

[Honggweilo]

"fdsfgs" - Stalin
oh god i thought i posted this in the "quote stalin" topic in chit-chat :lol:, must have clicked on the wrong tab, my bad

[Coggeh]

oh god i thought i posted this in the "quote stalin" topic in chit-chat :lol:, must have clicked on the wrong tab, my bad
Smooth ... :cool:

[rioters bloc]

oh god i thought i posted this in the "quote stalin" topic in chit-chat :lol:, must have clicked on the wrong tab, my bad

Lmao. I was wondering about that :P

I love how everyone conveniently ignored it...

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

I've been into hip hop since I discovered it at the age of 12 in '87 (and coming from the north of England there wasn't much about!) and my heroes have always been Public Enemy, a quality political act but even they whilst not being overtly homophobic still came up with...

"Man to man/I don't know if they can/from what I know/the parts don't fit".

I'm not a latecomer to hip hop, know full well what the four elements are and enjoy a good political rant but have always been uneasy that whilst fighting against racism, others were quite happy to be homophobic. Why should we accept homophobia as 'artistic licence'?

Oh, the parts fit...

I don't listen to much hip-hop. I prefer either folk or punk (I love Phil Ochs and I love Propagandhi), but there are some hip-hop groups I like and I've never heard anything homophobic come from my favorite hip-hop group El Vuh.

[Sean]

I don't want to derail the topic, but I saw this video today and couldn't resist. Feel free to remove,but I'm just trying to remove a little of the tension in the thread...

cGUEol3R1RA