International Women's day

[L.J.Solidarity]

International Women's day is approaching. Here in Germany, demonstrations tend to be quite small (<1000 people), this year probably won't be an exception, owing to the fact that men aren't allowed to participate in Berlin and the demonstration in Hamburg takes part on 7th instead of 8th March (nobody knows why).
What is it like where you live?

[Blackscare]

International Women's day is approaching. Here in Germany, demonstrations tend to be quite small (<1000 people), this year probably won't be an exception, owing to the fact that men aren't allowed to participate in Berlin and the demonstration in Hamburg takes part on 7th instead of 8th March (nobody knows why).
What is it like where you live?


Why are men not allowed? Men can't show their appreciation and respect for women? I really don't understand how feminism went from being a positive pro-women movement to becoming a negative, bitterly anti-men movement.

Not trying to paint all of feminism, or feminism in your area, with that brush, this just reminded me of that.

[RedScare]

I've heard of nothing, but I'm not as well informed as I ought to be, so there might be something going on, although certainly nothing very big.

[Blackscare]

>.>

You are the bizarro me...


or am I the bizarro you?

[Decolonize The Left]

Why are men not allowed? Men can't show their appreciation and respect for women? I really don't understand how feminism went from being a positive pro-women movement to becoming a negative, bitterly anti-men movement.

Not trying to paint all of feminism, or feminism in your area, with that brush, this just reminded me of that.

Men may not be allowed because often times by denying men access to a meeting/march/gathering women are able to maintain an atmosphere free of the chauvinist, patriarchal, value-system which plague our societies today.

This does not mean that these groups are anti-men, rather that they seek empowerment outside of male influence.

As a male, I support their movements and offer support when my support is requested.

- August

[svenne]

Here in Sweden, we have demonstrations in pretty much every of the bigger towns, and it's pretty typical at least in the like five biggest towns to have two demonstrations: one for both genders, and one female separatist. I am gonna walk in the one for both genders, being male. :)

[Blackscare]

Men may not be allowed because often times by denying men access to a meeting/march/gathering women are able to maintain an atmosphere free of the chauvinist, patriarchal, value-system which plague our societies today.

This does not mean that these groups are anti-men, rather that they seek empowerment outside of male influence.

As a male, I support their movements and offer support when my support is requested.

- August


I think the nature of these events would naturally weed out "chauvinist, patriarchal" tendencies. Obviously men who would want to participate in this sort of thing aren't the problem. I also don't think it's the least bit constructive. Even if it wasn't an antagonistic policy (and I think it is) it would easily be seen as exclusionary.

I don't know what kind of progress feminists (not necessarily the feminists being discussed, but it happens among some all the same) expect to make when they openly take the position that men are bad and need to be excluded from opportunities to show solidarity and participate in a just cause. We're a fairly large segment of the population (some estimates have it as high as 50%!) :p But really, what do the anti-male feminists expect us to do? Donate a bunch of sperm and then off ourselves? :confused:

[Sam_b]

I don't know what kind of progress feminists (not necessarily the feminists being discussed, but it happens among some all the same) expect to make when they openly take the position that men are bad and need to be excluded from opportunities to show solidarity and participate in a just cause. We're a fairly large segment of the population (some estimates have it as high as 50%!) http://www.revleft.com/vb/international-womens-day-p1376288/revleft/smilies/001_tongue.gif But really, what do the anti-male feminists expect us to do? Donate a bunch of sperm and then off ourselves?

1. I don't see why you use the word 'feminist' like it is mutually exclusive to females only. For example, I would identify myself as a feminist, and many male comrades on the board would as well, I imagine.

2. I think that your concluding sentence is in severely bad taste, and entirely inappropriate.

[Blackscare]

1. I don't see why you use the word 'feminist' like it is mutually exclusive to females only. For example, I would identify myself as a feminist, and many male comrades on the board would as well, I imagine.

2. I think that your concluding sentence is in severely bad taste, and entirely inappropriate.


First of all, I guess I should specify that I was referring to radical strands of feminism, such as "separatist feminism", that certainly DO exclude men. I made it clear multiple times that I was not referring to feminism as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separatist_feminism

Separatist feminists, and perhaps some others, DO support the idea of artificial insemination, etc, as an alternative to heterosexual relationships, which they oppose.

So actually do some reading before you get all worked up and pretentious. What I said was a valid reference to a particular feminist school. And by donate sperm, I didn't mean by copulating, I was referring to the actual process of "donation" (though it's really just "sale") that is done in clinics across the world.


I can't STAND uptight people >.<

[Sam_b]

So you think its perfectly acceptable to say that 'anti-male feminists' (of course this is as much of an artificial name if anything, and has been used in the past to slander writers such as Kate Millet) would want men to donate sperm and then kill themselves?

Get some perspective.

[Blackscare]

So you think its perfectly acceptable to say that 'anti-male feminists' (of course this is as much of an artificial name if anything, and has been used in the past to slander writers such as Kate Millet) would want men to donate sperm and then kill themselves?

Get some perspective.

Well I think it's pretty clear I wasn't being totally serious when I said that.


Do you want to actually discuss the merits of separatist/radical feminism (yes, there ARE forms of feminism that are antagonistic towards men whether you'd like to address that fact or not), and it's relative effectiveness or destructiveness compared to mainstream feminism, or do you want to continue to insist that I intended to come off as some kind of chauvinist, which I've made clear that I did not? Obviously I don't actually think that "they" want men to kill themselves, so stop dancing around the issue I actually intended to discuss!

LOL @ people on constant "chauvinist watch" on revleft! As if I'm anti-women or something because I'm puzzled by the antagonistic stance some female feminists take. :rolleyes:

[Sam_b]

Well I think it's pretty clear I wasn't being totally serious when I said that.

So what? You still said it.


Do you want to actually discuss the merits of separatist/radical feminism (yes, there ARE forms of feminism that are antagonistic towards men whether you'd like to address that fact or not),

I didn't say that, I merely said that a lot of the time that idea has been used to attack other feminist writers. Its also worth saying that radical feminism is not the same as separatist feminism.


or do you want to continue to insist that I intended to come off as some kind of chauvinist

I didn't say you intended to. I'm saying that I found your concluding sentence to be in bad taste. You are making a big song and dance about trying to defend yourself here. Truth hurts?


LOL @ people on constant "chauvinist watch" on revleft!

So by that you are admitting that your post could be concluded by some to be chauvenistic?

[Blackscare]

I didn't say that, I merely said that a lot of the time that idea has been used to attack other feminist writers.

What does that have to do with what I said? Did I try to defame any feminist writers? I merely asked what others thought of an issue. Just because reactionary chauvinist fucks may reference the same point, doesn't mean that it's not a subject that should be discussed on the left.


I didn't say you intended to. I'm saying that I found your concluding sentence to be in bad taste. You are making a big song and dance about trying to defend yourself here. Truth hurts?

I do tend to get annoyed when the pc police on this site has to take every statement in the worst possible way without any sense of humor, context, or common sense. Truth doesn't hurt, nitpicking annoys.




So by that you are admitting that your post could be concluded by some to be chauvenistic?

By paranoid whiners, yes.

[Sam_b]

What does that have to do with what I said? Did I try to defame any feminist writers? I merely asked what others thought of an issue. Just because reactionary chauvinist fucks may reference the same point, doesn't mean that it's not a subject that should be discussed on the left.

Since when is everything about you? On the point of 'anti-male feminism' I merely commented that that has been used to slander other feminist theorists. That was all. Sheesh.


pc police on this site

Oh dear, oh dear. I wasn't aware that you had monopoly on what people can and can't find offensive. Its telling that you obviously have a problem with political correctness as well.


By paranoid whiners, yes.

Grow up. If you have anything with substance i'd love to hear it, before this breaks down further and becomes some ridiculous flame-war.

[Blackscare]

Well, it was my intention to discuss the role played by the anti-male sentiments of some schools within the greater feminist movement, and if it was positive or negative. I'm as ready to drop the tit for tat shit as you are :D

Seeing that we've already got a dialogue opened up (although over something stupid lol) what's your take on such ideologies? These would include separatist feminism, cultural feminism (insofar as it promotes a society run exclusively by women, if I am correct), and things like the S.C.U.M. manifesto. It's my position that these are BAD for society because they promote, in one way or another, division, inequality, and/or retributive hatred towards men.



Sorry, I'll admit that I overreacted to your criticism, I'm just a bit oversensitive to that kind of stuff because I tend to be misunderstood (or my intentions, at least). I'm not a bad guy, and the last thing I ever would try to do is offend someone. These things happen though, and I don't "bite my tongue" when something occurs to me quite as often as I probably should, which is probably why I tend to get in trouble :laugh:

[Sam_b]

I know youre not a bad guy, I just wanted to raise my concerns. It would be decent to have a proper discussion about these strands of feminism, I certainly have a lot to say on it; however i'm also conscious its 3.45am and I need to get up for classes.

I'll try to respond tomorrow sometime! :)

[Crux]

Here in Sweden, we have demonstrations in pretty much every of the bigger towns, and it's pretty typical at least in the like five biggest towns to have two demonstrations: one for both genders, and one female separatist. I am gonna walk in the one for both genders, being male. :)
I am going to take part in the one in Gothenburg myself. We will have a block as usual.

[rioters bloc]

Yep, only womyn and womyn-identifying people are allowed to participate in the organisation and promotion of the event, pro-feminist men can participate in the rally but mach at the back - the rally is led by womyn.

This is Sydney by the way :)

[Rjevan]

What is it like where you live?
Here's absolutely nothing. Since I live in deepest Bavaria it's not that surprising that no one cares about "these red things" as we lovingly call them here. ;)

[Bilbo Baggins]

Yep, only womyn and womyn-identifying people are allowed to participate in the organisation and promotion of the event, pro-feminist men can participate in the rally but mach at the back - the rally is led by womyn.

This is Sydney by the way :)

With all the over-the-top hypermasculinity going on all about these days with ape-like chest-thumpers for endless wars like Tony Blair, G.W. Bush, etc. running everthing and the testosterone saturated street thugs emulating them I certainly cannot blame women(womyn) excluding our barbaric lot.

Nothing like a good reminder us men need to clean up our sorry act and start behaving civilized for once.

True-Tony and Dubya are gone now, but unfortunately I don't see either Mr. Obama or Gordon Brown as much improvement.:(

[Niccolò Rossi]

Men may not be allowed because often times by denying men access to a meeting/march/gathering women are able to maintain an atmosphere free of the chauvinist, patriarchal, value-system which plague our societies today.

This does not mean that these groups are anti-men, rather that they seek empowerment outside of male influence.

As a male, I support their movements and offer support when my support is requested.

- August

August, usually I have a great amount of respect for you and can agree with alot of your posts, on this however I can not say the same.

Feminist movements which exclude men or are anti-men, based on whatever justification you like ('to maintain an atmosphere free of the chauvinist, patriarchal, value-system') are fundamentally bourgeois and anti-worker. Such movements do not combat patriarchy, patriarchy can only be combatted today in and through the class struggle and the realisation of socialism. These movements on the contrary act to devide the working class - only women can combat patriarchy and oppression, women must organise and fight as women - liquidating the identity and very concept of the class and class struggle, derailing it in favour of gender identity and the struggle against sexism.

[Q]

Sadly nothing in my area.

[ZeroNowhere]

With all the over-the-top hypermasculinity going on all about these days with ape-like chest-thumpers for endless wars like Tony Blair, G.W. Bush, etc. running everthing and the testosterone saturated street thugs emulating them I certainly cannot blame women(womyn) excluding our barbaric lot.

Nothing like a good reminder us men need to clean up our sorry act and start behaving civilized for once.

True-Tony and Dubya are gone now, but unfortunately I don't see either Mr. Obama or Gordon Brown as much improvement.:(
To the same extent that all women are responsible for Hillary Clinton, Ann Coulter, and... Or would Thatcher be too easy? Perhaps Golda Meier?
Or perhaps Adam and Eve?

[Wanted Man]

Other: no march, but there will be an event by the Communist Party and Communist Youth in Amsterdam. There will be some examples of revolutionary and militant women in history, as well as a discussion on the position of women today. There will also be a film of the film about the struggle of the Cuban Five and their wives, who are fighting for the liberty of their husbands and sons.

Regarding "women-only" events: I don't agree with it for reasons that have already been mentioned. But it's also poor form to go around denouncing it as one of the biggest evils in the world, especially compared to actually existing sexism. It seems that, even on the left, many people are scared of the idea of women organising and meeting on their own terms.

I don't agree with the idea, because I don't think it's the best way of dealing with sexism. But I do support the act itself. A good thread: What does it mean to be a good political ally? (http://www.revleft.com/vb/does-mean-good-t42462/index.html)

[manic expression]

On the no-male demonstrations, I can't agree with this at all. It should be said that it's insulting: many feminists today seem to believe men are inherently oppressive, or that it is in every man's vested interest to oppress women; this "radical feminist" view is both wrong and divisive. If these feminists think the presence of men will make their demonstration worse, or less pure, they are hurting themselves and betraying any idea of solidarity. If feminism is actually about "equality", I can't see how it connects to this kind of exclusion.

If you ask me, identity politics set back the American left by 30 years beginning in the mid 70's, and it still does so now, and it's unfortunate to see it so widespread.

[SEKT]

Here in Mexico City there will be a lesbian protest march until March 21, but they are only summoning women and they do not want any other movement to support them!!!

What open-minded they are!!!:bored:

[Bilbo Baggins]

The "all" in my post was in reference to the current epidemic of hypermasculinity, not "all men".

Yes, Ms. Thatcher was a rabid neo-liberal apologist for the kleptomaniac perpetratours of the present economic meltdown, but how many Iraqi deaths was she responsible for? Afghani?

[Red Rebel]

Philadelphia has a march, but sadly I don't believe I'll be able to make it home quick enough for the march.

I've never heard of a "women only" march, it would seem odd that they'd forsake their allies.

[brigadista]

The "all" in my post was in reference to the current epidemic of hypermasculinity, not "all men".

Yes, Ms. Thatcher was a rabid neo-liberal apologist for the kleptomaniac perpetratours of the present economic meltdown, but how many Iraqi deaths was she responsible for? Afghani?


quite a few Irish deaths