Getting the public thinking

[Bitter Ashes]

Hiya
I had a bit of a brainwave last night about how to increase class consciousness in my local area.
The way I see it, so many people are unhappy with how things are in thier lives and most of it could be ammended by socialism. The problem is, I think people have buried it down deep and suppressed it. They've learned to accept that thier lives are shitty and wont allow themselves to dream of a better, attainable, life.
So, here's the idea and it's hardly revolutionary (forgive the pun!), but I thought it could be a good first step for me to try. What I was thinking of was a form of canvassing. *quickly holds her hand out in a desperate plea to be heard out here*.
For those not familiar with the theory, canvassing is where you go door to door and ask people questions and try sway thier thinking towards yours face to face. It's used by politicians to get votes, charities to get funding and even some religous organisations like the Mormons and Jehova's Witnesses to get converts. It doesnt require control of the media to get your messages out and it doesnt actualy cost anything other than transport and even that is only depending on your range. So long as you've got some free time it's highly do-able.
I was thinking of putting a bit of a different spin on it and not only going door-to-door, but also approaching people at thier workplaces too. The sorts of questions I was thinking of asking was stuff like:
-"Do you enjoy coming to work?"
-"Would you be happier working more flexable hours?"
-"Would you be happier working less hours a week, if your standard of living did not decline?"
-"Do you think the owner of your workplace deserves to have a standard of living so much better than yours?"
-"Have you ever witnessed, or been a victim of, company policies that you consider ot be unfair or exploitative?"
-"Do you feel that higher earners look down upon you, or hold predjudices against you?"
-"Your workplace owner is able to deciede your working conditions, company policy, dress code, working hours and breaks and even hold the power to force you into poverty via unemployment, reduction in wages and hours and other practices. They have capital gained from earlier practices of controlling workers or inheritance. Do you feel this is a fair that they are able to hold this power over your life?"
I think everyone here can guess what the majority of the response to those questions will be. I could do with some feedback on those and feel free to suggest more. I'll be trimming it all down so I can ask them all within about 2-3 minutes. Please make sure that they're phrased in a way that I can just tick a box to record thier answers.
The aim is to make people go "Holy moly! I am bieng exploited by my bosses!". I am going to deliberatly avoid talking about revolutions, or using names like communism, anarachism, socialism, etc as well at this early point because I want people to think about the answers they've come to, rather than immediatly shutting thier minds to it all because of the stigma associated that was brought in from reactionary propaganda. Of course, this leaves us open to, at a later date, give these people the name of the opinions they've expressed during the canvassing.
I'm expecting some resistance from managers, supervisors and even directly from the bourgeois, so I've been considering how best to get my foot in the door to ask the workers these questions. For workplaces that are open to the public such as shops, pubs and resturants it's relativly easy so long as there's not too many customers, the authority figures are not aware of what's going on and the survery can be done very quickly. For other places it may be a bit more tricky, but I've considered waiting outside these places during workers' lunch breaks, just as they're getting to work, or just as they're leaving. Again, it's very important to get these questions asked very quickly, although this will be more of the indivduals probably wanting to make the most of escaping thier workplace as quickly as possible. Heck, I even had a REALLY daring idea of doing this at a certain place, but I'll keep that to myself for now in the intrests of staying on topic.
As I've said though, this is an early step of planting the seeds of class consciousness and it's the first of many different kinds of activity, that could pave the way to a revolution.
I'll be giving this a go when I feel more comfortable with the subjects involved, but I could do with some help with this planning stage. So, thoughts? Feedback? Improvements? Any reason anyone can think that I shouldnt do this at all? :)

[Dóchas]

i can immediately see that you are going to run into some opposition from the workers themselves at some point. the problem i see witht his is that you would have to be very well learned in revolutionary theory to get through the questions they will undoubtedly ask. this kinda limits the amount of people that can canvas for you as id say they would have to know a good bit about what they are talking about and not just the basics.

im not sure if you are just trying to get them to think about the world around them or to join a certain belief (anarchism, socialism etc). i think you just mean a survey to see how many people are actually pissed off about the situation. i think this is a great idea and the questions are very simple that will get simple answers. do you have friends or an organisation that are willing to help you out?

[Bitter Ashes]

i can immediately see that you are going to run into some opposition from the workers themselves at some point. the problem i see witht his is that you would have to be very well learned in revolutionary theory to get through the questions they will undoubtedly ask. this kinda limits the amount of people that can canvas for you as id say they would have to know a good bit about what they are talking about and not just the basics.

im not sure if you are just trying to get them to think about the world around them or to join a certain belief (anarchism, socialism etc). i think you just mean a survey to see how many people are actually pissed off about the situation. i think this is a great idea and the questions are very simple that will get simple answers. do you have friends or an organisation that are willing to help you out?
Hiya.Thanks for responding. Forgive me for bieng a bit nieve, but might I ask why these sort of questions might stir up opposition from the workers themselves?
I'm also wondering why it's nessicary, at this point, for the difficult questions to be thrown at the canvasser. I think I might be to blame for explaining something really simple with far too much detail and made it look more complicated than it actualy is. :blushing: All I'd really be talking about doing, at this stage, is going out with a clipboard with these questions printed on them and some boxes to record how many people responded in what way. Really is that simple. Ask the question, tick the box and move onto the next one. I'll edit a crude example into the bottom of this post in 5 minutes (edit: Added now:)).
The thing I like about doing this is that it allows the people who are bieng asked the questions to come to allocate the blame for thier lousy conditions to where it belongs - The Bourgeois, without having to spell it out to them. I'd like to think that after I've gone they'll think to themselves about all the things thier employers are doing to make them miserable and at a later date they'll be a lot more receptive to the prosepect of changing the situation.
I hope that helps to clarify things
[/URL][URL="http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crudesurvey.jpg"]http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/2861/crudesurvey.jpg (http://img10.imageshack.us/my.php?image=crudesurvey.jpg)
http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/crudesurvey.jpg/1/w656.png (http://g.imageshack.us/img10/crudesurvey.jpg/1/):)

[Dóchas]

Forgive me for bieng a bit nieve, but might I ask why these sort of questions might stir up opposition from the workers themselves?



well you can thank the bourgeoisie for that and their propaganda. it just seems to be the first thing people do when they hear communism ie. oppose it and not be open to any discussion about it



I think I might be to blame for explaining something really simple with far too much detail and made it look more complicated than it actualy is


ye sorry i probably didnt help



All I'd really be talking about doing, at this stage, is going out with a clipboard with these questions printed on them and some boxes to record how many people responded in what way. Really is that simple. Ask the question, tick the box and move onto the next one.


ok thats clears up a lot i thought you were goin to try and talk to them about communism etc :lol:



The thing I like about doing this is that it allows the people who are bieng asked the questions to come to allocate the blame for thier lousy conditions to where it belongs - The Bourgeois, without having to spell it out to them. I'd like to think that after I've gone they'll think to themselves about all the things thier employers are doing to make them miserable and at a later date they'll be a lot more receptive to the prosepect of changing the situation.


ye its really simple yet i can imagine that it is effective, kudos to you!! have you asked may people? and do you have anyone to help you out?

[Bitter Ashes]

:w00t: Yay!
I've experimented a little already in a very informal way and so far it's been positive. I could just do with getting the actual questions finalised and getting one of my friends to print a few out for me. Then, seeing as though I only work part time, I'll have the time to spend a few hours here and there just pouncing upon the public. :lol:
Not sure if I know anyone to help out though. I've not got to the stage with my friends where I think they'd be prepared to spare the time for it and most of them have full time jobs anyway. I dont think it's going to be a major issue though and of course, anyone on Revleft who likes the idea who wants to print out the questions and canvas thier local area with them is more than welcome. :)

[Dóchas]

:w00t: Yay!
I've experimented a little already in a very informal way and so far it's been positive. I could just do with getting the actual questions finalised and getting one of my friends to print a few out for me. Then, seeing as though I only work part time, I'll have the time to spend a few hours here and there just pouncing upon the public. :lol:
Not sure if I know anyone to help out though. I've not got to the stage with my friends where I think they'd be prepared to spare the time for it and most of them have full time jobs anyway. I dont think it's going to be a major issue though and of course, anyone on Revleft who likes the idea who wants to print out the questions and canvas thier local area with them is more than welcome. :)

ye you should definitly get a copy for revleft you never know some people may print them off and hit the streets

[scarletghoul]

Cool idea Scaeme! Good luck!

[Coggeh]

Don't a lot of parties canvass though ? like door to door paper sales while talking to people ? its a very good way to build up a solid presence within a community

[Bitter Ashes]

It seems I can get these printed out on Monday morning and go for a bit of a test run around the town centre. Going to mainly target sales assistants for the first swoop. I've got that original set of questions. Would anyone like to comment on those or add/remove any before I email them off this weekend? :)

-"Do you enjoy coming to work?"
-"Would you be happier working more flexable hours?"
-"Would you be happier working less hours a week, if your standard of living did not decline?"
-"Do you think the owner of your workplace deserves to have a standard of living so much better than yours?"
-"Have you ever witnessed, or been a victim of, company policies that you consider ot be unfair or exploitative?"
-"Do you feel that higher earners look down upon you, or hold predjudices against you?"
-"Your workplace owner is able to deciede your working conditions, company policy, dress code, working hours and breaks and even hold the power to force you into poverty via unemployment, reduction in wages and hours and other practices. They have capital gained from earlier practices of controlling workers or inheritance. Do you feel this is a fair that they are able to hold this power over your life?"

Also, is it worth recording the demographic I'm approaching? Obviously, it's not going to aid in the actual political swaying that I'm winging for, but it may make the "statistical results more useable for some kind of research or something. Kill two birds with one stone?

[JimmyJazz]

Marx did almost this exact thing. He wrote a "Workers' Questionnaire" and sent it out to workers in a bunch of different countries. The questions are hilariously leading - "How much of the value of your labor does your boss withhold from you?" and stuff like that. Unfortunately I have never found it online, but it's on page 328 of Volume 24 of the Collected Works of Marx and Engels. You might be able to find it at a university library (that's where I did).

FYI it would be way more effective if instead of going door-to-door you were to give it to workers who you were actually organizing. Maybe try to join/start a local IWW branch. Then tailor your questions to whatever industry you happen to build up your first campaign in.

Also, if you do this as you're suggesting--and I think it could be good practice--take out the sentence "They have capital gained from earlier practices of controlling workers or inheritance." It makes you sound like a crazy leftist, and your goal is not to.

[Bitter Ashes]

Thanks Jimmyjazz. I might just do that :)

[Boy Named Crow]

Do you have any thoughts on what you might do with this information or what might be your next step?

It could be useful to make a note for yourself on the page detailing where you got certain results. Tht way you would be able to go away and identify which parts of your surveyed workforce might be more open to further canvassing or further information.

It might also be useful to research and locate any leftist meetings in your local area that might be a good place to introduce people to socialism/communism without scaring them off. You would have to approach the group and get permission from them for your idea. They might even help you.

If you're targeting retailers - try and find out if they have a union. If so, there should be an elected union representative in your area that you could approach with your ideas.

Good luck Scaeme! :)

[Lynx]

This approach might have great potential.
Do you have to say for whom or what you are canvassing for? Can you just ask the questions without being too specific about your own motivations?

[Bitter Ashes]

This approach might have great potential.
Do you have to say for whom or what you are canvassing for? Can you just ask the questions without being too specific about your own motivations?
That's what I'm hoping. Although, if I do get asked I'm going to respond with "I'm conducting a survey about workers' rights". If they do directly and flat out ask if it's communist or something then I guess I'd have to come clean, although if they're associating those sorts of questions with communism, then I probably dont have much work to do ^^

[Lynx]

That's what I'm hoping. Although, if I do get asked I'm going to respond with "I'm conducting a survey about workers' rights". If they do directly and flat out ask if it's communist or something then I guess I'd have to come clean, although if they're associating those sorts of questions with communism, then I probably dont have much work to do ^^
I might plausibly claim I was canvassing for a trade unionist organization (or fail to correct the assumption that I was). On the other hand, telling the truth, when asked, might be better.
Some people will stop listening once they hear the word communist or socialist. There may be some benefit in asking questions people would not associate with communism, or from asking a few counter-indicative questions.
~

[YSR]

A highly focused version (http://www.nadir.org/nadir/initiativ/kolinko/lebuk/e_buk_81.htm) of the same thing, called an agitational survey, that was used for a campaign in call centers in Germany in the late 1990s. Also, read the whole book Hotlines because its fucking awesome and militant research rules!

EDIT: Also, other stuff that I'm obliged to repeat from the zillions of IWW Organizer Trainings I've taken: Make sure you include some kind of contact list when you do this, if its the beginning of a community or workplace organizing effort. These contacts are really important and can provide the basis for a committee that is set up to drive the campaign forward. Also, even if folks don't want to be part of the committee, the contacts are really useful for calling (not emailing, calling!) folks out to protests, demos, marches, meetings, or whatever you are doing.

A good next step might be to schedule follow up conversations (called one-on-ones) with folks who seemed really receptive or who you had a good conversation with in the process of the interview. Use these one-on-ones to ask more leading/agitational questions about the issue at hand (be it workplace organizing, landlord problems, or what have you). Ask lots of questions, try not to talk too much yourself, and try to get folks to come to to the conclusion that organizing is the answer as much as you can without pushing it on them. "Gee, that sounds shitty, do you think other people have the same problem as you? Yeah? Well, what do you think would happen if everybody in your workplace/neighborhood/whatever got together and told the boss/landlord/whatever that you have this problem?"

Final thing, although there's certainly a lot more to think about: I would never throw out that you're a commie or whatever until you need to. Our mnemonic device is AEIOU and it indicates the steps in an organizing campaign:

Agitate about conditions (and meanwhile map out the workplace/community in terms of physical layout and relationships)
Educate about what others have done in the past to deal with these problems
Inoculate your fellow workers/neighbors about what the responses will probably be from the powers-that-be and how to prepare for them
Organize an action, direct or otherwise, with your committee and carry it out
Union! After your successful action, get people to commit to the union idea (since you already are functionally a union) and go public. Then you start all over again at the next level of struggle.

Notice that not until the last step, Union, are you talking openly or frequently about a formal organization or ideology. Maybe you might let it in that you believe in a worker-controlled society and that damn, we're so much more organized than the boss is, but you don't go around waving the red or black flag until much later. It's not about being sneaky or hiding your beliefs, its about leading your fellow workers to a point where they can understand and accept them through their experience of struggle.

Aw fuck it, you probly should just join the IWW since we're so cool and do this stuff all the time! :thumbup1: Plus 'cause I cribbed everything I just wrote from our organizer training!

[griffjam]

The important thing is not to point out that the government is corrupt, Or that poverty and racism are disasters more catastrophic than any hurricane, Or that most children see more animated cartoons than flesh-and-blood animals, Or that millions upon millions of people rely on antidepressants to cope with the tedium and injustice of modern life; Everybody already knows all that. The important thing is to show that something can be done about this— You can make the guilt of politicians public by pelting them with pies and paint bombs wherever they appear, You can establish childcare and homeschooling collectives to raise your children in healthy environments, You can protect protests with mobile shield walls made from wooden pallets with banners stretched across them, You can learn to communicate with your lovers, and offer community resources to those who need to escape from theirs, You can still have glorious adventures and accomplish great feats, even in the synthetic wasteland of the suburbs; You can fight the forces you hate, and protect the ones you love, And wield power without oppressing others. Start by smashing capitalism and overthrowing hierarchy in your own life, And seizing all the means of production you can get your hands on; The next steps, and the ones with whom you can take them, Will be clear from there.

[Trystan]

I think it's a good idea. Go for it.

[YSR]

*SMASHY SMASH*

Really? Have you ever been to a protest where a small group of people fuck shit up? It tends to end with lots of people hating on that group.

My feeling is that actually people do not always explicitly understand the oppression that they face, although they often do if you explain it to them in ways they can relate to.

No offense, but your post reads like something ripped from a Crimethinc. essay circa 2002.

[griffjam]

Arguments about property destruction are (mostly) really arguments about capitalism. Those who decry window-breaking do so mainly because they wish to appeal to middle-class consumers to move towards global exchange style green consumerism, to ally with labor bureaucracies and social democrats. It is not a path designed to create a direct confrontation with capitalism, and most of those who urge us to take that route are at least skeptical about the possibility that capitalism can ever be defeated at all. Those who break windows during protests don't care if they offend suburban homeowners, because they don't see them as a potential element in a revolutionary anti-capitalist coalition. They are, in effect, trying to hijack the media to send a message that the system is vulnerable— hoping to spark similar insurrectionary acts on the parts of those who might consider entering a genuinely revolutionary alliance: alienated teens, oppressed people of color, rank-and-file laborers impatient with union bureaucrats, the homeless, the criminalized, the radically discontent. If a militant anti-capitalist movement was to begin in America, it would have to start with people like these: people who don't need to be convinced that the system is rotten, only that there's something they can do about it. And at any rate, even if it were possible to have an anti-capitalist revolution without gun-battles in the streets— which most of us are hoping it is, since let's face it, if we come up against the US (or whatever nation's) army, we will lose— there's no possible way we could have an anti-capitalist revolution while at the same time scrupulously respecting property rights.

[Bitter Ashes]

I think this is going offtopic a bit although I would prefer not making enemies of people who dont need to be enemies, just because somebody wants to make a thoughtless point.

[Bitter Ashes]

Had some problems getting this printed. Date's set for Friday now :)

[Bitter Ashes]

Okay. Friday we're blitzing the local shops and seeing what we can come up with.
If anybody else would like a copy of the survey please send me a PM, or leave a message on my profile or something and I'll email it to you.
It's in a RTF format so any word processing program should be able to read it/print it okay.
It would be helpful if somebody would be prepared to host it too. Just in case I fall off the edge of the earth, here's the rapidshare link
http://rapidshare.com/files/213584495/workerssurvey.rtf.html
There's only 10 downloads allowed and it expires after 90 days, so anyone willing to host it more permantly please grab yourself a copy and post a link to the new host on the thread.
Thanks
x

p.s. Let us know how it goes! ^^

[ZeroNowhere]

Marx did almost this exact thing. He wrote a "Workers' Questionnaire" and sent it out to workers in a bunch of different countries. The questions are hilariously leading - "How much of the value of your labor does your boss withhold from you?" and stuff like that. Unfortunately I have never found it online, but it's on page 328 of Volume 24 of the Collected Works of Marx and Engels. You might be able to find it at a university library (that's where I did).
Hm, are you referring to this one (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/04/20.htm)?
Quite a lot of it isn't as relevant now in the West (such as the parts on child labour, for example), but yeah.

[Bitter Ashes]

Me and Faceless went for our first attempt this afternoon in Leeds city centre and here's what we did.

Neither of us have done anything like this before and we werent feeling quite daring enough to go into stores and actualy survey the staff. So, for this time, we just stayed on the high street and went fishing for members of the public to give thier opinion. Overall, we did it for about an hour before we got too cold and it was getting close to the time where I needed to get back home and ready for work.

A lot of the people we asked said they were either on thier way to work, or otherwise in a hurry and were unable to answer our question. There was also several who spotted us approaching with clipboards, made eye contact, probably thought we were going try to take money from them and then ran like the wind!

In all, we got 7 people to answer the questions and here are thier answers:


1) "What would you describe your position at work to be?"
Worker (7)

Management/supervisory (0)

Owner (0)



2) "When you get up in the morning do you look forward to coming to work?"
Yes (2)

No (5)



3) "Would you be happier working more flexible hours?"
Yes (6)

No (1)



4) "Would you be happier working less hours a week, if your standard of living did not decline?"
Yes (5)

No (2)



5) "Do you think the owner of your workplace deserves to have a standard of living so much better than yours?"
Yes (4)

No (3)



6) "Have you ever witnessed, or been a victim of, company policies that you consider to be unfair or exploitative, or an infringement upon your rights?"
Yes (2)

No (5)



7) "Do you feel that higher earners look down upon you, or hold prejudices against you?"
Yes (4)

No (3)



8) "Your workplace owner is able to decide your working conditions, company policy, dress code, working hours and breaks and even hold the power to force you into poverty via unemployment, reduction in wages and hours and other practices. This power has not been gained through the popular support of workers like yourself. Do you feel this is a fair that they are able to hold this power over your life?"
Yes (0)

No (7)



9) “Would you be interested in being contacted again about workers' rights issues?”
Yes (3)

No (4)

Certain things came up that are worth mentioning too:

- For question 1, we did also have one person say unemployed, but they said they were previously a worker and they answered the other questions in hindsight.
- For question 2, One person said that they looked forward to work in the morning because she had a personal intrest in it her career. This example was a hairdresser.
- For question 3, all those who said they would not want more flexable hours said they already had the ideal shifts for them
- Question 6 produced some very suprising results. Plenty of examples were given of unfair and exploitative company policies, such as bieng demanded to work extra hours for free, or strict uniform policies, yet very few of those interviewed seemed to consider them to be bad policies. Kinda seemed like they had just accepted that they have to endure this stuff whever they go.
- One person was interviewed who didnt want to answer any of the questions at all, but said that they were concerned about violent crime far more than workers rights and that they were actualy on thier way to emmigrate!
- A gardener was interviewed and claimed that his bosses at the local council had almost slashed his pay by half this week because they claimed that it was illegal to pay them more than a certain salary compared to part time staff in other sectors of the council. The council bosses recieve thier bonuses as usual though. Contact details for the person in question were collectd and I'll see what I can find out about it and what can be done to help him.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

I've been following the thread since you started it and I have to say I think it's a great idea for getting people thinking about it. Of course there's not much we can take from seven people but question 5's four yes' to three no's is a little upsetting althought a resounding seven no's out of seven for question 8 is good. That's the question that people will think about the most afterwards.

It's also good because of the thing you mentioned with the gardener. You should tell people about the IWW or if their not in their own union tell them about that.

Keep up the good work though, i'd love to help in some way, i'm in London. I suppose I could do some of the survey's. I'm still at school so I could say it was a report I was doing for school. If there's anything else I can do then please tell me.

[Bitter Ashes]

That's cool. I can email you a copy of the survey if you like. Just PM me an email and I'll get that to you.
I'd reccomend finding a friend to do this with you because we're going to be trying a slightly different tactic in West Yorkshire next time.
We're planning to go into stores on the high street and have one person distract the manager while the other surveys the assistants. We'll see how it goes and keep you informed. :)

[Stranger Than Paradise]

OK sure, i'll PM you it.

[Bitter Ashes]

Me and Faceless did another round of surveys in Leeds city centre today. We had a slightly better turnout today which was especailly impressive with the wind battering us. We also added an aditional question asking whether the individual is unionised.
The combined results of both surveys are below


1) "What would you describe your position at work to be?"
Worker (13) - 6 from this survey

Management/supervisory (2) - 2 from this survey

Owner (0)



2) "When you get up in the morning do you look forward to coming to work?"
Yes (6) - 4 from this survey

No (10) - 5 from this survey



3) "Would you be happier working more flexible hours?"
Yes (13) 7 from this survey

No (3) 2 from this survey



4) "Would you be happier working less hours a week, if your standard of living did not decline?"
Yes (11) 6 from this survey

No (4) 3 from this survey



5) "Do you think the owner of your workplace deserves to have a standard of living so much better than yours?"
Yes (4) 2 from this survey

No (11) 8 from this survey



6) "Have you ever witnessed, or been a victim of, company policies that you consider to be unfair or exploitative, or an infringement upon your rights?"
Yes (7) 5 from this survey

No (9) 4 from this survey



7) "Do you feel that higher earners look down upon you, or hold prejudices against you?"
Yes (10) 6 from this survey

No (7) 4 from this survey



8) "Your workplace owner is able to decide your working conditions, company policy, dress code, working hours and breaks and even hold the power to force you into poverty via unemployment, reduction in wages and hours and other practices. This power has not been gained through the popular support of workers like yourself. Do you feel this is a fair that they are able to hold this power over your life?"
Yes (2 ) - 2 from this survey

No (13) - 6 from this survey



9) “Would you be interested in being contacted again about workers' rights issues?”
Yes (7) -4 from this survey

No (9)- 5 from this survey



10) (new question) "Are you a member of a union and if not, would you consider joining one if it was estabilised in your workplace?"

Yes (2)

No, but I would consider joining one (3)

No and I would not consider joining one (4)


We also managed to speak to some intresing people this time round too, including a RBS employee and even the bourgeois themselves (How that happened I dont know! :P).

The RBS employee and one other said that they have been told that they are (quote) "Not allowed to join a union". Is this legal? Faceless seemed to think that if they've signed a contract saying that they wont join a union then they will can be sacked for joining one. Intrestingly, I was under the impression the UNITE worked with RBS and even the worker we interviewed was a bit confused with that one too as he said he's seen UNITE picket lines, but doesnt think he's allowed to join.

[Pogue]

It's a good idea if you do it properly and make it relevant.

[Killfacer]

It's a good idea if you do it properly and make it relevant.

This.

It's important to emphasize things which effect the "public" themselves. Last time i mentioned this, i got accused of being an evil heartless opportunist. However i will restate it; I think it's important to concentrate on local issues. Far too often do you see socialist papers concentrating on huge national issues, when the only way to garner any real support is my showing people how they are effected by certain events or government policies.

[Stranger Than Paradise]

More good work. What did the bourgeois say?

[Bitter Ashes]

I'm not too sure as it was Faceless who interviews that guy. From what I understand though, there was some workers we talked to who were more anti-workers' rights than this guy. Maybe it was just for show. Maybe not. Sounded like he was more of petty-bourgeois though.

[CHEtheLIBERATOR]

An anti-capitalist revolution WILL happen.It is inevitable you might think of military force and all that stuff but the final revolution will be a people's upheival where the people get sick of slavery,famine,poverty and beng oppressed and will overthrow everything.IT IS INEVITABLE and will be unstoppable

[Killfacer]

An anti-capitalist revolution WILL happen.It is inevitable you might think of military force and all that stuff but the final revolution will be a people's upheival where the people get sick of slavery,famine,poverty and beng oppressed and will overthrow everything.IT IS INEVITABLE and will be unstoppable

No it won't. It's not inevitable and it certainly isn't unstoppable. Where did you get this guff from?

[Bitter Ashes]

No it won't. It's not inevitable and it certainly isn't unstoppable. Where did you get this guff from?
erm... Karl Marx? :confused:

[Faceless]

(Firstly for griffjam's benefit - most "suburban homeowners" are workers too, at least in Britain. Going around throwing pies at politicians and breaking the windows of RBS may prove to people that politicians and windows are not inviolable, but it doesn't exactly demonstrate that the working class can organise to lay hold of the productive forces and run them democratically without their bosses. I don't really see what this has got to do with the thread though so rant ends here.)

Hello everyone,

I thought I'd share my thoughts since I've been going out doing this with Ranma42. For a start I'm nowhere NEAR as good at Ranma at this - a bit of experience in customer service or tele-sales would definately not go amiss. If you are going to do it, unless you are absurdly confident go with someone else.

The survey itself though has been very enlightening for me personally and for ranma too I guess. It's given us a chance just to ask ordinary people questions about their working lives. Hopefully we've also raised questions in the minds of some of those people and will be able to discuss further with some of those who left their details. We've only done it twice (and like I said, I have a lot of room for improvement) but we've met a few workers who are open about their dissatisfaction with their jobs and have left their contacts.

I did meet a couple of people who described themselves as "managers/supervisors" although generally they are the "manager" of a group of two or three other workers and are paid very little extra. This one guy that I spoke to though did describe himself as a "cheif executive" of a company. My first thought was "uh-oh" although his answers to the questions weren't that different to other workers. He said he'd be happier with more flexible hours and time off (naturally!) and interestingly he wasn't sure as to whether or not bosses deserved to have the powers over workers wages/hours etc. described in question 8!

All in all I think many small businesses are being done over by the recession and their owners will be looking with sympathy to workers who are suffering too. (Not that we had a communist in the making or anything!)

Anyway, yes, I think it's been quite effective in the absence of a broader campaign. I think it'd be useful to have a larger campaign behind us. Until the unions/trades councils/labour parties etc. start to actively campaign on these issues it's up to us to go it alone. Go us! :closedeyes:

[pastradamus]

Of course its a good idea. Capitalism advertises itself all over the place and so must we.

[Trystan]

erm... Karl Marx? :confused:

I don't think he ever said it was inevitable. Whatever, it's not inevitable.

[Hoxhaist]

I don't think he ever said it was inevitable. Whatever, it's not inevitable.

The final revolution is inevitable, Ranma42 is right. However up until that point the path of revolution is not a straight line but zigs and zags as we have seen in the USSR and China. However, the contradictions in capitalism will inevitably tear it apart and the people will rise up against continued exploitation in the final conflict. A single revolution in a single nation may fall but the inevitable world revolution will not fail when the time is right

[Bitter Ashes]

Actualy, I'm not one to follow any of the ideoligies to the letter. I was merely pointing out that the Marxist ideoligy, as opposed to the ones that call for vanguard parties, would have probably where idea of the "inevitable revolution" comment came from.

Anyway... this is very offtopic.

[JFMLenin]

This is a good idea, and I think, though it may not connect with all or even the majority of people at first, it will certainly do something for the thought process of somebody. I might consider doing this myself at some point.

Keep up the good work!

P.S. How is the following possible?


4) "Would you be happier working less hours a week, if your standard of living did not decline?"
Yes (11) 6 from this survey

No (2) 3 from this survey

[Faceless]

P.S. How is the following possible?

There were some people who only worked part time a few hours a week and it didn't make much sense to be working less hours.

Oops! I just realised - you mean it's mistyped. Hehe, blame Ranma :laugh:

[Bitter Ashes]

Ah. Thanks for that. I've edited it properly now.

[griffjam]

(Firstly for griffjam's benefit - most "suburban homeowners" are workers too, at least in Britain. Going around throwing pies at politicians and breaking the windows of RBS may prove to people that politicians and windows are not inviolable, but it doesn't exactly demonstrate that the working class can organise to lay hold of the productive forces and run them democratically without their bosses. I don't really see what this has got to do with the thread though so rant ends here.)


If by owning a home you mean going into debt for the rest of your life, then that's true. I'm sure you have been following the recent "boss nappings" that have occurred throughout Europe, do you think that they would have occurred if the targets were, because of their title and corner office, held to be untouchable and more powerful than the collective force of the workers united? Or imagine what would have happened to Stalin or Mao's cult of personality if they were pied during a speech? A successful assassination creates a deified martyr and a failed one enforces the illusion of invincibility, while humiliation tears away the curtain.



The final revolution is inevitable, Ranma42 is right. However up until that point the path of revolution is not a straight line but zigs and zags as we have seen in the USSR and China. However, the contradictions in capitalism will inevitably tear it apart and the people will rise up against continued exploitation in the final conflict. A single revolution in a single nation may fall but the inevitable world revolution will not fail when the time is right

According to Marx, capitalism must develop the means of production to the point where the private ownership of the means of production is no longer historically necessary. This is an article of faith, however, since there is no reason to conclude that communism must necessarily follow capitalism. Dialectical materialism reduces history to a single cause, the quest for greater economic productivity. Supposedly history can be fitted into so many categories based upon a civilization's increasingly powerful "mode of production", eg. asiatic, feudal, capitalist and, by extension, socialist. This model of historical change leaves out many historical variables, like the role of political institutions, ideology, culture, etc., or treats them as secondary effects or "superstructure". Many historical events have no economic explanation at all, for instance, the conquest of the Roman empire by relatively economically backward invaders.

Even supposing dialectical materialism were true, it does not provide a basis for predicting capitalism's successor. According to dialectics, the successor to capitalism must in some way be a negation of capitalism, and in some way a continuation. Marx arbitrarily concluded that what would be negated was capitalism's "anarchic" unplanned, exchange system, but that the technological advances made under capitalism would be preserved. As empirical evidence for his position, Marx cited the growing centralization of production in the hands of corporations and the state. This allowed economic planning to go beyond the single factory, to embrace a global network of factories, industries, and regions. Marx saw this as a dialectical tendency in the direction of communism. As capitalism gave way to more centralized planning, the absurdity of private ownership would become obvious to everyone and the remaining capitalists would be expropriated.

Now that a century has passed since Marx laid down his doctrines, it is clear that the centralization of capital has not brought about progress towards communism. What has occurred is a tremendous growth in economic bureaucracy, both at the government and corporate levels. Instead of disappearing, the capitalists have melded into the ranks of corporate executives. The lower level corporate and state functionaries have joined with the small business people and expanded the middle class. Certainly this bureaucratization is a "negation" of old-style capitalism, but it is not a step closer to communism. A class society, when left to its own dialectic, does not develop into a classless society, but just a different type of class society. The ultimate irony has been in those countries where marxism "succeeded" in overthrowing capitalism for a time. Marxism became the official ideology of a new class society. It became its own negation, an Hegelian joke on humanity.

Marx's real contribution to economics was as a capitalist economist. By concentrating on capitalism's economic "contradictions" and helping to reveal the reasons for economic crises, Marx helped to lay the theoretical groundwork for the welfare state capitalism of the 20th century. State intervention in the economy did not undermine capitalism, but helped it gain stability and entrap the labor movement in a policy of class collaboration. Marxism, with its dialectical faith that the growth of capitalism would eventually lead to socialism, only helped rationalize the political opportunism of its followers. Workers could be sacrificed today as long as it helped develop the means of production to the point needed for communism. History would take care of the rest.

Whatever the merits of dialectical logic, it is useless as a tool for building a new society. The means for building a classless society can not be discovered by criticizing capitalism. Criticism itself, is impossible without some ideas of how things could be made better. Thus dialectics is not free of "a priori" assumptions, which the Hegelians claimed were the problem of empirical science. Marx assumed that communism would be the next mode of production after capitalism, and assumed what its characteristics would be, although he did not draw up a detailed blueprint. He then tried to show that this was the direction in which things were going, and ignored or explained away evidence to the contrary. History has proven him wrong. The quest for increasing economic productivity has not brought about the emancipation of the workers.

The economics of a classless society can only be discovered by studying conscious attempts at creating workplaces and regional economies where workers are not exploited. This means researching co-operatives, communes, and the economies of countries undergoing social revolutions. The successes and failures of these will suggest what the limits and possibilities actually are.

Rather than asking whether the conditions are ripe for revolution, we accept that we may never know, so this is as good a time as any to find out.

[Hoxhaist]

the revolution zigs and zags because people seem to succeed in revolution only to have it be undermined or crushed. The Rome example is an example of a zig zag in progress as is the example of the USSR and Mao's China. The lessons must be applied from each failure so that the next time that people test the water to see if the conditions are right for revolution they will not fall prey to the factors that have undermined revolution in the past.

[Plagueround]

Or imagine what would have happened to Stalin or Mao's cult of personality if they were pied during a speech?


Yes. Stalin and Mao would have resigned after pie drive-by. I don't know whether I should laugh uncontrollably at such stupidity or give you a warning for trolling.

Let's try and keep this a bit more on topic.

[Hoxhaist]

I would have thrown my body in the way of any pie aimed at Comrade Stalin!! :)