Fighting the fascists

[Pogue]

As revolutionaries we'd oppose reformist groups and many people would oppose any form of entry into parliamentary politics what so ever.

What I'd question however is that with electoral politics being the main stage for politics, and with the British National Party gaining alot of publicity and votes (and subsequently power, if they get an MP elected, and then more and more), would we not be forced to engage in electoral politics to combat them?

As revolutionaries we call for a revolution which takes time to build, and in the mean time poeple engage in the politics of the abllot box, that sort of simple politics like that, listening to the views which are put out to them and appeal to them. I was just worried that while we're all building our respective organisations, which are all currently small, the BNP take this more 'direct' if you like approach by pandering straight into filling the gap left by Labour, and there is no left wing alternative to the fash, and so the BNP gain power and support in the big time and that can snowball until its too late, and we're not meeting the needs of the working class. This is concerning to me and I don't see how we can fight their growth because in the mean time we're too small to do anything.

Thoughts?

[StalinFanboy]

I don't think it means that UK comrades need to participate directly in electoral politics. Obviously, the BNP gaining power is something to be concerned about, but I think it can be dealt with by persistent grass roots organizing. And by that I mean getting the word out in your community about what kind of people the BNP are, and if they're going to vote, why they shouldn't vote for them.

[Melbourne Lefty]

And by that I mean getting the word out in your community about what kind of people the BNP are, and if they're going to vote, why they shouldn't vote for them.

Thats what they are doing right now....

seems to be working great...:rolleyes:

[Killfacer]

I don't think it means that UK comrades need to participate directly in electoral politics. Obviously, the BNP gaining power is something to be concerned about, but I think it can be dealt with by persistent grass roots organizing. And by that I mean getting the word out in your community about what kind of people the BNP are, and if they're going to vote, why they shouldn't vote for them.

easy enough saying that, but the majority of people i know much prefer being presented with a solution rather than some one complaining about someone elses solution.

[Melbourne Lefty]

easy enough saying that, but the majority of people i know much prefer being presented with a solution rather than some one complaining about someone elses solution.


If the BNP were going door to door telling everyone that the Jews were taking over the world then non-electoral politics would be more than enough to stop them, the people in the neighbourhoods themselves would stop them.

Because the BNP is offering an economic electoral alternative [nationalisation, protectionism, localism with some Autarky style policies] there are two solutions...

1] form a broad left political party to meet them [think "der Linke" in Germany].

2] create such strong and politically aware working class communities that they cannot get a foot in the door.

The first would be my advice especially for marxists and other socialists, the second for anarchists [although in reality either is for anyone willing to do it].

The current strategy of mobilising university students to march up and down the street screaming "Nazi" is quite clearly not working.

Also I think the scariest part of the modern BNP is that the main activists are not hiding anymore. They are open about their affiliation and wave it around like a rag.

In some communities they are still nervous as hell , but in others they seem to be well known in their communities.

How many revolutionary left wing activists are well known in their communities to the same extent? There are many I am sure but how disorganised are they?

My parents were in the fight against the NF in the UK back the last time the fash came, and they told me that the best way to stop the NF activists was to simply tell the community that they were NF activists.

That doesnt seem to work anymore, and thats seriously worrying.

[Killfacer]

Option one is the only one which could possibly work. The main problem with that however, is that the left seem obsessed with international goings on and completely ignore important local issues. The SWP (they are guilty of this, however it is not only them, most lefties are guilty of this) for example constantly bang on about Gaza, seemingly beleiving it is more important to the British left wing than local issues. It's a load of crap and the longer it carries on, the longer the BNP will be unopposed.

[Greenman]

In the UK there are two electoral projects which involve left elements, one larger and fighting a constant battle against rightist elements in their own Party, and another smaller, and working more at the Community/local council level.

These are Green Left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Left_%28UK%29) in the Green Party (currently the only force to the left of dead-in-the-water neo-liberal Labour in England likely to gather enough votes to diminish the chances of the fascists getting MEPs elected in June's euro elections - e.g in the North West where the Green lead candidate is a green socialist) and the IWCA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IWCA) who sprang from the anti-fascist group AFA.

In addition, the rumoured launching of an electoral front (http://www.socialistunity.com/?p=3669)for the Euro elections by RMT (http://www.rmt.org.uk/)union activists, left Euro-sceptics and the CPB might draw off some ex-labour voters that might otherwise vote for the far right (that is a big might given the closeness of the election and the lack of time they have to get their message across.) Unfortunately it might also split the left vote in places like the North West and London and allow the fascists through the middle.

Obviously in the longer term better strategies are required, and "option two" above is crucial. However, the threat in England in particular is growing, and might not be quite as evident to those living in big metropolitan cities with students and a "cosmopolitan atmosphere". For those of us (more thin on the ground left) living in smaller provincial towns, the atmosphere and reception you get campaigning on the streets and in discussions is getting noticeably more hostile and threatening, bearing out what Melbourne lefty said above. This is not yet necessarily a vast increase in the numbers of organised fascists, but certainly does indicate an increasingly more fertile ground in which they might grow and gain votes.

[Killfacer]

The IWCA are doomed from the start. Do these people have no idea in how to represent themselves? Why call yourself that? At leas the SWP has a bit of a ring to it.

[brigadista]

i think the track record of BNP councillors when elected[they did nothing thereafter] is a good campaigning tool against the BNP

[Dr Mindbender]

I've said in the past that we need to take the battle to the BNP in the working class estates. The reason the BNP are mopping up is because they are engaging with people and making them think they care.

We need to be shadowing their tactics; that means getting out door knocking in council areas and actually talking to people rather than sitting in inner city comfort zones.

Our other weakness is our own amount of sectarian back biting and the lack of a credible leftist alternative in the shape of a coherent, solid party. The BNP acts as a vehicle for the fash to mobilise behind. We need our own party that is seen to take a part in the processes.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

We should mainly show everyone the fault of the fascist's ways and the dangers it gives. Furthermore we can and should prove that the fascists will do nothing to improve the situation of the Working Class, and as such are not an alternative to capitalism, but just an extreme variaty of capitalism.

We can do this electorally, but we shoul focus on thye People directly, propaganda and direct actions.

[Killfacer]

We should mainly show everyone the fault of the fascist's ways and the dangers it gives. Furthermore we can and should prove that the fascists will do nothing to improve the situation of the Working Class, and as such are not an alternative to capitalism, but just an extreme variaty of capitalism.

We can do this electorally, but we shoul focus on thye People directly, propaganda and direct actions.

That's the point though. It's like putting a plaster on someone's blown off leg. Without a credible alternative, simply slagging off the BNP and calling them fascists is completely pointless.

[Sam_b]

The SWP (they are guilty of this, however it is not only them, most lefties are guilty of this) for example constantly bang on about Gaza, seemingly beleiving it is more important to the British left wing than local issues.

Are you seriously saying we have our priorities skewed because recently we've been giving more reports on how the Israelis are attempting to wipe out Palestine?

Fuck that, mate.

[Killfacer]

Are you seriously saying we have our priorities skewed because recently we've been giving more reports on how the Israelis are attempting to wipe out Palestine?

Fuck that, mate.

It's the same on this site. People bang on about international goings on, but you rarely find something about local politics. It's always "this happened in greece" or "israel have bombed another orphanage".

Maybe the left needs to concentrate on it's back yard before complaining about what other countries do.

[Sam_b]

A load of bollocks. There's concentrating on 'local politics', and there's also being ridiculous. There's a fucking massacre happening in Gaza, and we should be concentrating on our 'own back yard'? Fuck that, seriously. Especially if we consider that we're complicit in Israel's war crimes.

I'm sorry, but the rumblings of the BNP at this moment in time are significantly less important than the people of a country who are getting white phosphorous used on them.

[StalinFanboy]

It's the same on this site. People bang on about international goings on, but you rarely find something about local politics. It's always "this happened in greece" or "israel have bombed another orphanage".

Maybe the left needs to concentrate on it's back yard before complaining about what other countries do.
That's a fallacy. We don't need to be perfect or anywhere near it to know that something is fucked up in another country.

[Killfacer]

A load of bollocks. There's concentrating on 'local politics', and there's also being ridiculous. There's a fucking massacre happening in Gaza, and we should be concentrating on our 'own back yard'? Fuck that, seriously. Especially if we consider that we're complicit in Israel's war crimes.

I'm sorry, but the rumblings of the BNP at this moment in time are significantly less important than the people of a country who are getting white phosphorous used on them.

Sorry, how exacty is the SWP complaining about Israel helpful to anyone? It doesn't make the SWP more popular, it's not exactly going to influence anything which happens in the middle east either. So what exactly is the point? Maybe if the SWP concentrated on local politics, they would have a bit more sway and maybe then their condemning of zionism might be a little more credible.

[Killfacer]

That's a fallacy. We don't need to be perfect or anywhere near it to know that something is fucked up in another country.

Eh? No one said it wasn't ucked up. I'm simply saying that obsessing over international poltics isn't helpful in the slightest.

[Pogue]

Well we need an internaitonalist approach but obviously talking about things which affect people here will be most effective yes.

[Killfacer]

I'm angered by the fact i always end up seeing like a twattish opportunist who hates gazans.

[Pogue]

I'm angered by the fact i always end up seeing like a twattish opportunist who hates gazans.

If you're angry, just think of comrade Pot and all will be well.

[Dr Mindbender]

A load of bollocks. There's concentrating on 'local politics', and there's also being ridiculous. There's a fucking massacre happening in Gaza, and we should be concentrating on our 'own back yard'? Fuck that, seriously. Especially if we consider that we're complicit in Israel's war crimes.

I'm sorry, but the rumblings of the BNP at this moment in time are significantly less important than the people of a country who are getting white phosphorous used on them.


i dont think anyones arguing that the situation in gaza is one we need to ignore.

However- in this moment in time the uk working class do not have access to the facts so you cant chew peoples arms off for seeming indifferent when socialist worker sellers are screeching at them from the pavement about issues that seem to them to have no bearing on their lives.

Its shit and its nasty, but in the present time, especially now with the recession the uk electorate is more interested in bread and butter isssues. Unfortunately the BNP seem to have understood this better than the rank and file of prominent leftist parties like the SWP.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Unfortunately the BNP seem to have understood this better than the rank and file of prominent leftist parties like the SWP.


Just slightly...:rolleyes:

How often do you see left activists helping to man picket lines these days? When the BNP was trying to infiltrate the recent strikes was anyone there to stop them aside from the usual squarking union stooges?

[Steve_j]

In defense of the SWP, it is their outspoken critisism of these international events that got my attention of them. And subsequent support.

But i am not British let alone your average one so local issues are not as high on my priority list as most. How ever the far right is a big concern for me. You boys seem to have done a good job of sorting out the bone heads in the past so i dont see them as any real threat here, but quasi facist parties like the bnp, big fucking issue in my book.

But in SWP's defence again if, looking at their public meetings, they cover a good mix of international and local issues.

And getting back on topic, one of which is entitled "How can we stop the fascist BNP?"

Looks like i will pop in for that, look forward to hearing what they have to say.

[Killfacer]

i dont think anyones arguing that the situation in gaza is one we need to ignore.

However- in this moment in time the uk working class do not have access to the facts so you cant chew peoples arms off for seeming indifferent when socialist worker sellers are screeching at them from the pavement about issues that seem to them to have no bearing on their lives.

Its shit and its nasty, but in the present time, especially now with the recession the uk electorate is more interested in bread and butter isssues. Unfortunately the BNP seem to have understood this better than the rank and file of prominent leftist parties like the SWP.

Why whenever i try to say something like that does everyone get offended?