Homophobia is "rampant" on XBox claims gay media group [Archive]

Bitter Ashes

1st March 2009, 12:04

http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-11378.html

By Tony Grew (http://www.pinknews.co.uk/news/articles/2005-author/grew/) • February 27, 2009 - 14:46

A cyber-row has broken out after a woman was banned from playing XBox Live online because her open lesbianism "offended" other players.
Teresa said she was targeted by other players before she was banned.
"I was harassed by several players, 'chased' to different maps/games to get away from their harassment," she said.
"They followed me into the games and told all the other players to turn me in because they didn't want to see that crap or their kids to see that crap," Teresa reveals.
"Microsoft does nothing to stop this or prevent it, but instead sides with the homophobes.
"No one will help me get the word out about Microsoft's anti-gay policy. Not even the HRC who says Microsoft has a positive image with them. Not to me it doesn't!"
X Box Live moderating chief Stephen Toulouse said on Twitter:
"Expression of any sexual orientation (straight or gay or otherwise) is not allowed in gamertags.
"However we've heard from the user-base they want that capability, so I am examining how we can provide it in a way that wont get misused."
The Gay and Lesbian Alliance Against Defamation said there was "rampant homophobia in the online gaming community."
GLAAD has held meetings with gaming companies and plans to host a panel discussion this summer in Silicon Valley.
"We’ll be discussing the issue and getting feedback from both the LGBT and gaming community about how to fight the defamation and educate users about the impact of their words and actions," the group said on its blog.
"We’re truly in a new era. And with new technologies, come new challenges. LGBT people have fought hard for years to come out of real-world closets - we’re not willing to accept virtual ones.
"As GLAAD makes progress, we will be engaging the community in a vibrant discussion and work together to find the best solutions to make online gaming safe and enjoying for us all."
GLAAD said Microsoft "have been nothing but open, welcoming, and willing to discuss ideas for positive and inclusive changes during these conversations. Microsoft has invited GLAAD out to its headquarters in Redmond, WA, for multi-day meetings with developers, executives, and policy enforcers in the upcoming weeks."
A survey published in 2007 found that online gamers face a homophobic culture.
The Gaymer Survey, conducted at the University of Illinois and involving over 10,000 respondents, found that gay gamers experienced a high level of homophobic attitudes and language.
88% of respondents said that they had heard the phrase "that's so gay."
84% said that the word 'gay' had been used in a derogatory way.
Over half of the respondents felt that gays were stereotyped, 52% found gaming worlds to be hostile to gay and lesbian gamers, while 42% felt that gays were under-represented.
Only a minority of participants (9%) claimed that they had never encountered anti-gay remarks.
Jason Rockwood, who conducted the survey, said: "Gay gamers experience a double-edged sword of prejudice.
"The mainstream gay culture and media is not supportive of video games. Then you have the video game culture that is not supportive of gay culture," he told innewsweekly.com.
"So you have these people stuck in the middle who have this double-edged prejudice.
"I'm hoping this survey would shed some light on how or why people go through such a process."I was actualy talking about homophobia in online gaming on chat the other night. Several games, usualy the ones with voice communications, I've ended up not playing anymore because they're so hateful. Counter Strike on Steam springs straight to mind.

Anyone else have any stories? I'd personaly say that the US servers seem to have a bigger problem than European ones on average.

Socialist Scum

1st March 2009, 12:05

It's pretty gay if you ask me. :mellow:

bcbm

1st March 2009, 12:07

All the online gaming I've done has been full of homophobic shit. I usually just bait and egg on the bastards and try to make them realize they're idiots.

DÃ³chas

1st March 2009, 12:11

ye i see it most of the time when im online but its usually by people called [SS] SIEG-HEIL or [KKK] REDN-ECK :lol:

1st March 2009, 12:14

i havent, but that doesnt say much, because basically the only games i have ever played online pes is for football and it dont gives and much "opportunities" to say such things, and gtaiv who i never found a way to communicate!

Fuserg9:star:

Sean

1st March 2009, 12:30

Totally. The amount of ZOMG IM GONNA PWN U FAGGOT you'll hear in the average PC shooting game online is ridiculously high but understandable given that youre playing against fat, angry 13 year old boys. I'd expect XBox gamers to be much the same. Calling Microsoft homophobic is as fucking idiotic as blaming British Telecom for bomb threats. They do absolutely nothing, just let you lift up the reciever and say whatever you want to anyone!

hugsandmarxism

1st March 2009, 12:33

I've encountered homophobia plenty of times throughout my Xbox Live and PS3 Network experiences. It aggravates me to a point that I've stopped talking over the headset, instead choosing to play Soviet anthems or quirky Japanese pop music over my microphone to make it impossible for these twerps to concentrate. It drives them crazy, especially when you have a sound file playing in another language and they try to talk to it and tell it to shut up :laugh:

Bitter Ashes

1st March 2009, 12:59

Dont reward them with Jpop Hugs. Their ears don't deserve such wonderful things! :D

Dr Mindbender

1st March 2009, 13:03

In GTAIV Brucie the petrolhead refers to one of the gay characters French Tom as a ''cockhound''.

Thats not online though, thats during the actual in game story so R* are actually responsible for that one.

Rangi

1st March 2009, 13:25

I have witnessed homophobia on a huge scale during online gaming. Taunts such as the ubiquitous term 'fag' and a myriad of other more descriptive, vulgar and derisive slurs are an everyday occurrence.

Welcome to the world of a 14 yr old boy. Comments such as this are the norm in online gaming and are also commonplace in the schoolyard, on the sportsfield and probably also in some workplaces as well.

If you were afraid of being targeted while playing online games then I would advise against advertising your sexual identity.

People can be cruel.

Pirate turtle the 11th

1st March 2009, 13:37

Just play the audio of a porn film.

"ugh-yeah-yeah-fuck-yeah-suck-it-shutupyoufuckingfagootilkillyou-ugh-yeah

revolution inaction

1st March 2009, 13:46

Bitter Ashes

1st March 2009, 13:54

World of Warcraft used to have a ban on LGBT guilds too in the past if I remember right

revolution inaction

1st March 2009, 14:06

World of Warcraft used to have a ban on LGBT guilds too in the past if I remember right

Yes http://kotaku.com/151330/blizzard-frowns-on-gay+friendly-guilds

Sean

1st March 2009, 14:07

Actually they banned her because they have a policy on putting sexual orientation into gamer tags (something you'll find actually stop more people calling themselves KILLALLFAGSX2000 than it does discriminate against lesbian geeks) and she was banned after many people complained. The story makes it sound more like the evil microsoft corporation running around burning witches than what was more likely some moderator begrudgingly kicking her because yeah those assholes are right, they do have some shitty policy on it.
While other players are homophobic on a large scale I think it highly unlikely that Microsoft are, just because of one pissed off player. Screams of injustice and discrimination against the banhammer are not new on the internet. The people were to blame, not Microsoft.

Coggeh

1st March 2009, 14:13

It's pretty gay if you ask me. :mellow:
Try not to use gay to describe stuff that you don't like and what not , i used to have that habit :(

revolution inaction

1st March 2009, 14:24

Socialist Scum

1st March 2009, 19:29

Try not to use gay to describe stuff that you don't like and what not , i used to have that habit :(

I was trying to be ironic, but oh well. You're pretty gay for not understanding! :rolleyes:

I mean, I don't get it. When someone says "That's so gay", does it really have homosexual qualities?

Glenn Beck

1st March 2009, 19:53

"your a fagot"
"KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF MY A FAGOT"

Is usually how the conversation goes with me. Insisting on proper grammar really pisses them off because they are all functional illiterates.

I have no idea where all this hyper-homophobic youth culture came from but its really bizarre. The other day I saw two prepubescent girls all dolled up like Bratz(TM) saying to eachother "Awmahgaad thats so GAY". I really needed a cigarette after witnessing that.

hugsandmarxism

2nd March 2009, 00:45

Dont reward them with Jpop Hugs. Their ears don't deserve such wonderful things! :D

Yeah, idk, for some reason it sounds like fingernails on chalkboard to them, so i get to enjoy my favorite music and savor their suffering at the same time. The best part is, these guys are typically so dull witted that they don't figure out that they can mute me.

Anyhow, I think there should be a way for progressive thinkers to band together online and take on the rampand homophobes and morons that plague Xbox Live, Playstation Network, and others. People should be able to enjoy a videogame in their down-time without being bombarded by this nonsense.

Communist Theory

2nd March 2009, 01:23

Yeah, quite a few of my friends on Xbox Live use the words that are homophobic.
I even catch myself saying them sometimes. :(

hugsandmarxism

2nd March 2009, 01:41

Yeah, quite a few of my friends on Xbox Live use the words that are homophobic.
I even catch myself saying them sometimes. :(

I hate it when that happens. My friends growing up were homophobic neo-cons (and so was I, till about 14 :( ) and on occasion I catch myself saying something like "that's gay," then spend the next twenty minutes giving myself a lecture about it. I've been homophobic-comment free for 6 months! :lol:

These patterns of bigotry and homophobia need to be stamped out among our youth. Too many children grow up into ignorant tools because no one with a level head told them that there's nothing wrong with being gay, yet the issue is swept under the rug by mainstream politicians. It sickens me.

More Fire for the People

2nd March 2009, 03:48

Terms like 'faggot' and 'gay' have slipped into our everyday conversations so rapidly that we often use them without thinking -- I know in a drunk ass rap battle I've dropped the f-word. But this watch group is raising a legitimate concern. Our everyday use of de-contextualized terms like 'nikka' & 'nigga', 'gay' & 'faggot', '*****' & 'ho', etc. seep into our everday political thoughts and social relations. We, or at least we should, as political conscious revolutionaries know that we are using them as part of an accepted vernacular and don't mean them to disparage oppressed groups . . . but we know that, not them.

The Black Panthers had a rule that no one can do political work while high. They didn't enact this rule because they thought the use of drugs was bad. They did so because many folks did think they were bad.

We've got the inverse problem here. When we use 'nikka', 'gay', or '*****' we know that they're bad but the public doesn't. So while we're doing political work we've got to be especially conscious of the political and social connotations of our language.

genstrike

2nd March 2009, 05:30

I don't play any online games, but I have heard that it is pretty bad.

One thing I was wondering is how militarism and homophobia are often tied together. It's no secret that the military has a lot of homophobes, I was in a youth program sponsored by the military for five years and I've seen a lot of shit. I wonder if this also has any affect while kids are playing militaristic games, especially FPS games. Especially FPS games where little Nazi fanboys get to run around with guns defending the Reich.

I guess aside from the militarism, the question is something like what can we do to change schoolyard culture so it is more inclusive?

Killfacer

2nd March 2009, 09:51

I find racism is even more prevelant. The amount of times i have heard an annoying american teenager screaming about stringing up niggers is beyond belief.

Module

2nd March 2009, 11:34

'Gamers' seem to be disproportionately socially isolated bitter wankers who seem to revel in their being straight white males who are better than everybody else.
I was on an online game once (I don't do it often, I swear :p) and these two guys just start talking to me and openly begin discussing how it would 'suck' to be female, and they're so glad they're not, because they have it 'so much better' as men, and essentially begin teasing me for it.
Like Rise As One said (sort of), it's in online games you see people who are Hitler fanatics, or just openly racist or sexist.
Soulseek, though (again not that I go on the chatrooms a lot, but I went through a phase of going on them and 'browsing' people's files in the appropriate rooms :unsure:) also has a shit load of racists/sexists/Hitler fanatics.
In the 'Progressive Rock' room, the people there would often refer to black people as 'niggers', (progressive music, not politics!), and the same goes for the 'punk' room, too.
As I've said elsewhere on this forum, the internet is ruled by white straight males, and they know it.
That's not to say they make up the majority of internet users, they don't. They probably just feel a fuck load more comfortable posting publically in internet communities and going on more general chatrooms!

Sean

2nd March 2009, 12:22

Actually Des, I've known gamers male, female and gay who all called each other faggots and niggers while trying to kill one another in shooting games. A lot of it is to do with jeering and psyching the other players out and of course the anonymity of the internet combined with the roleplaying of being a big man with a gun out to kill lots of people that creates the acceptability of this kind of verbal abuse. Many of the people that hurl foul language at are their friends outside of these games. The only problem is, like in chanspeak, using the words purely to irritate eachother can serve to allow real racists and homophobes (as in the type that would actually discriminate) an environment where they can slip under the radar, and perhaps even be reinforced by it.
Now, in the actual case of the woman in the news article, that was descrimination against her because of her sexual orientation.

ibn Bruce

2nd March 2009, 13:05

XBox Live is the centre of all that is bad about society, rather than gaming. The reason people talk like that is because that's how they talk in real life, go to any High School and you will hear the same BS. Such words are so commonly used that they have become completely without meaning to the people who say them. I got called a 'sand-nigger' by a 13 year old from Texas, and that stuff is a daily occurance. Its the way it is, people talk like they are in their living rooms, because they are.

It sucks.

#FF0000

2nd March 2009, 13:40

ibn Bruce

2nd March 2009, 13:46

I'd racism, at least on Steam (TF2 and all that) is much more prevalent than homophobia. In fact I can't think of a single time where I've run into it, aside from on Counter-Strike.

And me and my friends really try to bait them. I mean really try.

I haven't really seen that much racism, though it happened on WoW a bit (my Avatar was called 'Mujahid', one dude pm'ed me saying 'we fked up your country hajji! Fck the sand-niggers!')

I think Homophobia was WAY more prevalent.. maybe its just different servers?

Coggeh

2nd March 2009, 16:35

I was trying to be ironic, but oh well. You're pretty gay for not understanding! :rolleyes:

I mean, I don't get it. When someone says "That's so gay", does it really have homosexual qualities?
shut up :(I don't get stuffs :(

Well it used to mean happy , and now it means homosexual . Anyway i just refrain from using it mainly because everytime i do I get into one of these debates with leftists on the use of language and stuff ... And plus i don't like homophobia so I don't wanna be associated with it ..

Pogue

2nd March 2009, 17:01

Yeh I've seen this homophobia. Its bullshit really, homophobes need to get their heads out of their own arses, stop repressing their own sexuality and deal with it. I don't get why some people can't deal with gay people. Its just as confusing and stupid as racism.

LeninBalls

2nd March 2009, 19:14

Pogue

2nd March 2009, 19:19

I say gay and faggot all the time and really, I don't mind. I'm not trying to discriminate homosexuals or anything. After all, to me, they're just words. Gay originally meant happy and a faggot was a bundle of sticks!

Plus, it's a horrendously bad habit.

its a bit nobbish, and theres much better alternatives

Pirate turtle the 11th

2nd March 2009, 20:30

Charles Xavier

2nd March 2009, 21:05

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_5pzLvvt3Ygaming is full of 14 year old boys talking shit, is this surprising?

2nd March 2009, 21:11

I say gay and faggot all the time and really, I don't mind. I'm not trying to discriminate homosexuals or anything. After all, to me, they're just words. Gay originally meant happy and a faggot was a bundle of sticks!

Plus, it's a horrendously bad habit.

Agreed with CJ above!Do NOT use any of those words here, but especially anywhere else!If you still use them here you will get infractions!

Fuserg9:star:

Killfacer

2nd March 2009, 23:37

I say gay and faggot all the time and really, I don't mind. I'm not trying to discriminate homosexuals or anything. After all, to me, they're just words. Gay originally meant happy and a faggot was a bundle of sticks!

Plus, it's a horrendously bad habit.

That's like me saying "i say nigger and paki all the time, but i don't mind"

genstrike

3rd March 2009, 01:49

gaming is full of 14 year old boys talking shit, is this surprising?

Maybe it isn't surprising, but when homophobic and racist slurs are a big part of something like gaming which is very popular among kids in their formative years, it is an issue which shouldn't be dismissed so easily. Of course, we should also be looking at the bigger picture, homophobia in society beyond gaming and where these kids are picking this kind of shit up anyways.

Communist Theory

3rd March 2009, 02:06

Kids talk shit all the time on games, and its always something to do with race or sexual orientation. It's sickening and quite foolish I think when I talk shit I call the person a scrub and thats it or stupid fucking scrub with a M16, either that or Fascist bastard. Sometimes homophobic statements slip into my shit talking, but I'm working on that. I guess kids can't think of any words besides "faggot" to try and sound cool with.

Black Dagger

3rd March 2009, 02:31

It's pretty gay if you ask me. :mellow:

Any point you're trying to make here?

I was trying to be ironic, but oh well. You're pretty gay for not understanding! :rolleyes:

Yeah i dunno ay? It's not really 'ironic', just a bit insensitive/distasteful really.

Black Dagger

3rd March 2009, 02:38

I say gay and faggot all the time and really, I don't mind. I'm not trying to discriminate homosexuals or anything. After all, to me, they're just words. Gay originally meant happy and a faggot was a bundle of sticks!

Plus, it's a horrendously bad habit.

Homophobia is not acceptable on RL, but nor is bragging about your use of homophobic slurs off the board. Consider this a verbal warning.

genstrike

3rd March 2009, 03:41

Consider this a verbal warning.

Technically, isn't it a written warning? ;)

Black Dagger

3rd March 2009, 03:52

Indeed. I say 'verbal' in the sense that it is an informal warning, not an infraction.

Rebel_Serigan

3rd March 2009, 04:32

The way i see it is that people have resorted to homophobia and hatred because they aren't creative enough to make up new insults. here I will give youa few I have used a ton of: "You dirty clock licking cronophile! Quit camping!" , "Suck my cumbustion-excellerated steel pellets!" "I am going to remove your hard-drive with my mad skills." , "GO HOME, umm more home!" , "Pssssha, i am tired of getting buried by you dribble skirts, i am going to go do something productive like burn down a hospitol." all of those things are not normal and all of them will cause enough hesitation for you to get the upper hand So I don't understand why people switch to gay insults when there are so much better thigns out there.

NecroCommie

3rd March 2009, 09:52

Homophobia is not acceptable on RL, but nor is bragging about your use of homophobic slurs off the board. Consider this a verbal warning.
Relax! He was not bragging about anything, but simply stating that he does not mean the words he uses.

But about the xbox live, I can say that its full of racist and often even fascist assholes. Being quite an active gamer myself I can tell that it is not only gamers, but games themselves that quite often spur out phrases that are openly straightforward racist. This can be quite bothersome, since sometimes when I feel "especially communist" I cant seem to enjoy these games at all. Especially certain wargames tend to glorify war and create heroic image around soldiers who actually kill, rape, torture and maim IRL.

Also internet in general has done wonders for racism. The "hit and run" nature of every discussion tends to leave otherwise non-sensible statements unchecked.

Oooh.... Im getting so angry at the cyber-fascism that I better stop writing before I get out of hand.

"You dirty clock licking cronophile! Quit camping!" , "Suck my cumbustion-excellerated steel pellets!" "I am going to remove your hard-drive with my mad skills." , "GO HOME, umm more home!" , "Pssssha, i am tired of getting buried by you dribble skirts, i am going to go do something productive like burn down a hospitol."HAhaa!!! I so much love a creative insult! :lol:

EDIT: Ofcourse those creative insults should not be used without a good reason.

bcbm

3rd March 2009, 12:34

Also internet in general has done wonders for racism. The "hit and run" nature of every discussion tends to leave otherwise non-sensible statements unchecked.

people generally stay in games long enough to be "checked" at least at a basic level. ive picked more fights over homophobic/racist/sexist language than i care to remember. hell i used to troll counter strike to get in fights over us policy in iraq. it is possible and you can very easily trounce a bunch of incompetent punks in a battle over bigotry.

Killfacer

3rd March 2009, 13:45

usually i don't challenge them over their racism. Mostly i just rip them for their stupid names like "$n!p£r [email protected]"

bcbm

3rd March 2009, 14:44

why you gotta make fun of my CS:S name?

Rangi

3rd March 2009, 14:50

So you get a warning if you admit that on occasion you might say the words 'gay' or 'faggot'?

That sounds a little harsh. He is right - they are just words.

Led Zeppelin

3rd March 2009, 16:16

So you get a warning if you admit that on occasion you might say the words 'gay' or 'faggot'?

That sounds a little harsh. He is right - they are just words.

Come on, that doesn't make it any less discriminatory.

"Nigger" is also just a word, but it has a meaning, and a pretty vile history behind it.

If a member was to use that word in reference to another member, it would still be just a word, but the problem is the kind of word it is.

Wanted Man

3rd March 2009, 16:30

That's like me saying "i say nigger and paki all the time, but i don't mind"
Agreed. Sadly, it seems a lot of people are selective in who they decide to give "rights" in their minds. You can't discriminate on racial basis, but gay people just need a thicker skin when masses of people take it for granted to discriminate against them...

Teenagers in online video games are hardly the most pressing concern when it comes to homophobia, but they do show a bigger problem in society. Firstly, the fact that discrimination is institutional, that it's part of this society. And also the growing individualism: "if you're offended, it's not my problem". It's okay for me and my buddies to call someone a "faggot", that we all contribute to the discrimination against a social group is apparently secondary...

Sean

3rd March 2009, 16:43

If everyone on revleft was playing against eachother on even the silliest game like soldat (http://www.soldat.pl/) I bet that there would still be abuse. Of course in our case it would be "take that you fucking primmie" "die you fascist!", "now you know how a cow feels when you kill it for meat, mofucka!" or "anarchism, while it is a completely valid idealogy you just use it because you are an angry teen with no grasp of politics whatsoever...fucker."
We have our own lexicon of epithets and abuse on this site and among the wider left.

Orange Juche

3rd March 2009, 21:55

Try not to use gay to describe stuff that you don't like and what not , i used to have that habit :(

I think they were purposely and sarcastically just trying to be ironic.

Orange Juche

3rd March 2009, 22:05

Homophobia is not acceptable on RL, but nor is bragging about your use of homophobic slurs off the board. Consider this a verbal warning.

Are you even allowed to do that? I mean, using those words is extremely distasteful, and it pisses me off when people do, but they were hardly bragging. They were noting their personal experience with using the word, in contributing to the discussion ABOUT using the word. There's a difference between that and bragging.

It seems rather objectionable to me that you can't even admit to the use of words - when your personal intent isn't discriminatory (even though, its still shitty, wrong, and distasteful).

Comrade Anarchist

3rd March 2009, 22:39

Invincible Summer

4th March 2009, 00:45

I think the argument that words such as "nigger" or "faggot" have supposedly "changed meaning" due to their current and more loose usage is a fallacy - and yes, people do make these arguments. On another forum I frequent, I had to try to convince people that just because "everyone uses it (even gay people, apparently)" doesn't mean the meaning has changed.

The discourse behind the words is still homophobic - when you say the word "faggot" or even "gay" in the derogatory sense, it is still loaded with negative attitude towards homosexuals. One argument I came across was that "oh people just use it to mean 'bad' or 'uncool' nowadays, not to dis gay people."

What the fuck? So a word used to discriminate (or even identify as gay within the gay community, possibly) against gays means something negative, yet it is not negative towards the original target of the words? That's like me saying "From now on, Irish means the same as 'shitty'." That's equivicating Irish people to being shitty - IT'S THE SAME DAMN THING WITH THE WORDS "FAGGOT" "GAY" ETC ETC!!

I'm disappointed that some RevLefters here have admitted to slipping into using homophobic and racist language when gaming, knowing full well what it implies.

Black Dagger

4th March 2009, 00:50

I say gay and faggot all the time and really, I don't mind

Why would you i guess? Clearly homophobia is not of concern to you.

I'm not trying to discriminate homosexuals or anything. After all, to me, they're just words. Gay originally meant happy and a faggot was a bundle of sticks!

Plus, it's a horrendously bad habit.

Of course the 'intent' of language is important - but that doesn't mean you can say whatever you feel like and then have the gall to act confused or injured when someone else takes offence to your use of bigoted language. You may not 'intend' to support, confirm or reproduce homophobic attitudes by calling anyone who headshots you on COD a 'fag' - but that is what you do - its contributes to the casualisation of homophobia making people who are supposedly not homophobic indistinguishable from the 'real' homophobes.

Great huh?

As using 'fag' in this way (to insult or denigrate others) is precisely how homophobia is employed by the 'real' homophobes.

So we are meant to distinguish between these things? What's the real difference there? One person 'intended' their homophobic insult not to be homophobic and the other relished in this bigotry? How on earth is the former 'better' than the latter? It's not as if your intentions are written in brackets alongside your insult.

Besides, if your intention was not any of these things, what was the intention?

Merely to insult?

But why 'faggot'?

Because it is very offensive?

Why is it offensive?

Because gay people are...?

Indeed, why choose that word amongst the expansive vocabulary of english-language insults? Think about that, a good reason would be nice (personally, i would argue that people who choose such words show indifference to homophobia at best). Why not a racial slur? A sexist one? Why don't you call your in-game enemies 'niggers'? I mean if you don't intend offense, surely it is absurd for others to take it! I mean, it's certainly not homophobic to insult others with homophobic slurs - even if it seems that way - so we must assume that people who speak this way intend no homophobia?

Intent is important but you have to realise you don't live inside your head - the wider world can't read your intent through in-game text. The word 'fag' is not homophobic in abstract and can even be used progressively - but using it as an insult is analogous with homophobic speech. But even if someone is not homophobic for using homophobic slurs - deploying these words shows not only a remarkable insensitivity to others (what do ya reckon gay folks think about your habit?) but also gross indifference to the realities of homophobia (way to take the whole thing seriously!). I mean, you're not even a homophobe and this is how you refer to others? Great.

Orange Juche

4th March 2009, 05:03

Give me a break! >_<

Really i'm so sorry - i should have never challenged your 'right' to insult others using homophobic epithets, i'm being such a silly faggot lol :rolleyes:

Really, do it again.

Protest again for someones right on the internet to call me faggot.

I mean, honestly - what are you doing?

You say "your". I never call people "fag" or "gay", nor admitted to doing so on here. Someone else admitted to. You warned them, and I responded with my concerns in warning them for admitting to doing something outside of board activity.

I wasn't protesting for anyone's right to call people "faggot" or any related words, I wasn't protesting for anyone's "rights".

Personally, I find it extremely objectionable when people use words like "faggot" or "gay" as insults, and really, it gets me rather pissed off when I see it happen. I see it as being ignorant, infantile, and simple minded. It makes me want to backhand people when I see them do it.

My point - in my response to your "verbal warning" - was that I don't believe someone should be given a verbal warning when talking in context of the discussion, when they aren't calling anyone "fag" or "gay", while admitting to something they have done/do OUTSIDE of the forums. They were attempting to contribute something to the discussion on the slang use of the words. Admitting they do something objectionable, fucked up, and unacceptable in terms of being civilized? Yes. But they didn't call anyone a fag or gay on here.

If it was brought up in a thread unrelated, or they actually called someone "gay" or a "fag", I'd totally be for reprimand. I'd be one of the first ones to call for it. I was just concerned, in this case, because I feel it inhibits discussion when someone can't admit to doing something outside of the boards, admitting in an attempt to contribute to the overall discussion. Its not a matter of rights of action, but the ability to talk about ones actions in relation to said thread (if an attempt is being made to enhance the thread).

"do it again"

Are you going to ban me for my comments here? I'm not attempting to challenge your authority, or even say you are a bad mod, I'm just a user trying to bring up genuine concerns on how the rules are being handled. I don't think that's crossing any line. I've meant no disrespect in anything I've said regarding this.

Orange Juche

4th March 2009, 05:06

I think that the reason it is rampant is b/c the majority of people who play video games in the U.S. are guys and most straight guys in the U.s. are homophobic. So most take offence to being called gay.

I think it all ties in to misogyny. In sports, the coach is always saying how they "play like girls" or "you throw like a girl". If you are a coward and a male, you are called a "sissy" (implied effeminate). Gay guys are perceived (sometimes true, sometimes not) as being more effeminate. Its this socially bred, ingrown fear of not being masculine enough - of being too "woman" like - that naturally leads some people to being anti-gay.

Its an implanted paradigm of masculine power and dominance, hatred of women and anything that threatens their masculinity.

Black Dagger

4th March 2009, 05:32

You say "your". I never call people "fag" or "gay", nor admitted to doing so on here. Someone else admitted to.

I thought you were defending the casual usage of these terms by others - hence 'your' - i was talking generally to all those people and including you in their number (as i thought you were apologising for them). I should have made that clear.

If it was brought up in a thread unrelated, or they actually called someone "gay" or a "fag", I'd totally be for reprimand. I'd be one of the first ones to call for it. I was just concerned, in this case, because I feel it inhibits discussion when someone can't admit to doing something outside of the boards, admitting in an attempt to contribute to the overall discussion. Its not a matter of rights of action, but the ability to talk about ones actions in relation to said thread (if an attempt is being made to enhance the thread).

This is a fair point, and this is the reason i only gave the user a verbal warning. I probably can't give someone an infraction for saying 'i called this guy a faggot the other day'- but talking uncritically about such things. LeninBalls said:

I say gay and faggot all the time and really, I don't mind

That is a very flippant attitude to take to homophobia don't you think? It's essentially saying explicit homophobic speech is a non-issue, that's reactionary IMO. Even if what he is talking about occurs offline it really is a distasteful and problematic thing to say given the board guidelines concerning prejudiced language/homophobia. Therefore i gave the user a verbal warning, it was a token gesture really - if anything to discourage them from repeating this behaviour on RL. It's not like i gave them a warning point?

Are you going to ban me for my comments here?

No of course not.

I'm sorry MPIE - i clearly misread your intentions. I've now edited my previous post to reflect the real object of my criticism, LeninBalls.

Orange Juche

4th March 2009, 05:48

That is a very flippant attitude to take to homophobia don't you think? It's essentially saying explicit homophobic speech is a non-issue, that's reactionary. Even if what he is talking about occurs offline - that really is a distasteful and problematic thing to say given the board guidelines concerning prejudiced language/homophobia. Hence i gave the user a verbal warning, it was a token gesture really - if anything to discourage the user from repeating this behaviour on RL. It's not like i gave them a warning point?

Looking at the quote again, I see your point with that.

Invader Zim

7th March 2009, 18:25

"rampant homophobia in the online gaming community."Considering it's key demographic is male adolecents... no shit.

Its actually one of the reasons I rarely play games online these days, I can't be bothered putting up with all the inane drivel ("omg! u r cheater fag." et al.) that people come out with. It doesn't make for a pleasant experience.

DÃ³chas

7th March 2009, 20:00

forget online its every where in normal day to day life. the amount of times i hear "oh man that is so gay" or "ye they are such a fag" is just sickening

rioters bloc

8th March 2009, 07:15

forget online its every where in normal day to day life. the amount of times i hear "oh man that is so gay" or "ye they are such a fag" is just sickening

I agree, but I think that some of it (not necessarily all) can be attributed to the fact that some people just don't think about it and what it actually means to use the word "gay" and "stupid/crap/messed up" synonymously. It doesn't make it ok, but it does mean that perhaps a simple explanation as to why it is offensive will stop people from using those terms in such a way, and so there is still hope. I speak from personal experience here - when I was in high school, everyone used the word "gay" in that way, it just became part of our slang. Even though I had had relations with other womyn and was not homophobic I still used it because I didn't realise the implications of my language. When someone explained to me why it was so offensive, I was MORTIFIED and have never used that kind of language since.

I work with teenagers and I used to work with primary school aged children, and stuff hasn't changed, if anything it has become more ingrained in their vernacular. I always pull them up on that kind of shit, and 90% of the time they understand what I'm getting at and agree that it is offensive - the other 10% of the time they are genuinely homophobic and so think it's completely appropriate. But yeah, I guess my point is that while I find homophobia sickening, often when I hear those kind of phrases it is more indicative of ignorance than homophobia, and opening up a discussion about why it is insulting sometimes does help :)

Sean

9th March 2009, 22:59

I work with teenagers and I used to work with primary school aged children, and stuff hasn't changed, if anything it has become more ingrained in their vernacular. I always pull them up on that kind of shit, and 90% of the time they understand what I'm getting at and agree that it is offensive - the other 10% of the time they are genuinely homophobic and so think it's completely appropriate. But yeah, I guess my point is that while I find homophobia sickening, often when I hear those kind of phrases it is more indicative of ignorance than homophobia, and opening up a discussion about why it is insulting sometimes does help :)
I'm glad there are people like you out there. Our deputy Principal in my school's rationale for not calling people gay was that you might really turn them into a gay. I still think back on that bizarre logic and am dumbfounded that someone can be so homophobic while telling people not to say homophobic things. I think he may have confused homosexuality and summoning the devil.

atheist_anarchist

10th March 2009, 00:06

Black Dagger

10th March 2009, 02:26

Gonna chime in and say most of the people who say something like "that's gay" don't really mean it in a hateful way and don't really hate gays

And you know this how exactly?

And besides, i've addressed the matter of intent on the previous page of this thread. It's no mystery that words like 'fag' (when used as an insult) and phrases like 'that's so gay!' or 'don't be gay!' are homophobic - to use these terms and phrases in the very least shows indifference to homophobia. Though i agree some of the people who use these words and phrases are probably just too stupid (what's homophobic about calling someone who isn't gay - gay - as an insult) or naive (they say it because other people do) to understand the offense - but that kinda stuff shouldn't be excused. People who 'dont mean it' need to understand that 'not meaning it' doesn't make it acceptable.

The thing is that the media is so saturated with gay jokes and shit that people don't really think about it.

And that's a huge problem. Really though, i don't think young people are quite as duped as you seem to think - i just reckon most don't give a shit - sure the casualisation of homophobia is a huge contributer but so is indifference or apathy to homophobia - though both are obviously problematic.

I can say that being in school and hearing it so much i occasionally slip up and say "that's gay" but all in all i don't think its that big of an issue.

I dunno, if we were talking about racism - like, 'don't be such a jew!/nigger!' - would you have such a flippant attitude? Obviously there are more important issues - like structural rather than personal prejudices, but the attitude here is still very dubious. It's all about downplaying homophobia, coming up with reasons or excuses for it etc.

Blackscare

10th March 2009, 03:11

One thing I'd like to say.

I read someone said most males are homophobic and are therefore sensitive to being called gay. While I admit most males that are straight are sensitive, I believe it stems from insecurity more than homophobia. For an immature teen this is especially true. I know plenty of guys at my school who are fine with glbt people and don't harbor anti-gay feelings (friends with me, for one, and I'm about as out as it gets), but would still be mortified if someone said they were gay. I don't think we should immediately condemn anyone who is a tad immature or insecure with their sexuality as being an out and out homphobe. There are plenty of guys who are homophobic, but not enough to warrant making assumptions about everyone who exhibits a certain behavior.

Black Dagger

10th March 2009, 04:23

I don't think we should immediately condemn anyone who is a tad immature or insecure with their sexuality as being an out and out homphobe. There are plenty of guys who are homophobic, but not enough to warrant making assumptions about everyone who exhibits a certain behavior.

Sure, but homophobia is what this is about.

Call it 'sensitivity to being called gay' or 'insecurity with one's sexuality' - the logic of their repulsion remains homophobic regardless of their intent. That doesn't mean they should be treated the same way as someone who is malicious in their homophobia, but whether this is conscious or not it relies on the same logic - otherwise they would not take offense - that has to be acknowledged and is also something which seems to get lost in these sorts of discussions.
Obviously distinctions in peoples behaviour and attitudes should be taken into account, but there really is nothing 'wrong' with calling this behaviour 'homophobic' - that is what it is after all. I don't see the point in dancing around that (to spare the feelings of the offender?), you point it out - the person either accepts or sympathises with your POV or not. Casual homophobia shouldn't be take lightly simply because its most common agents are oblivious or immature naives. That knowledge should inform our approach, but i find the persistance of this sort of prejudice is something we should also take into account.
It has become such a banal experience these days, i mean at the moment we're talking about people who say homophobic things without even meaning it (!) - or understanding how they are propagating homophobic attitudes - it's just... modern vernacular (that is a pretty fucked up situation right there). So obviously i think there is a social problem here that needs addressing and we can't do that unless we make our objections clear - homophobia - like all other social prejudice - is unacceptable. And unless casual homophobia is included in that then things will just continue on this course.

Bitter Ashes

10th March 2009, 13:35

Yes - its pretty much expected online. I would say sexism is a bigger problem than homophobia (not that i am saying they are unconnected). Which is kinda lame 'cos there are plenty of female gamers and female clans and whatnot. But basically, you're presumed male (and white) (and American) (and English speaking). I used to play WarCraft 3 online, and there was a lot of homophobia - homophobia really doesn't cut it - it wasn't 'fear' of homosexuals it was hatred & bigotry - e.g. 'you fucking fag!!!' 'you take it up the ass!!!' 'suck a dick!!!'. People calm down when you play against others IRL. I used to go to internet cafes (really gaming cafes) and play against ppl & friends, and if i beat a stranger they would usually get shit off their friends saying that they were beaten by a girl (as if they somehow made it more humiliating).
Oh yeah. That's something else isnt it? The assumption that you're an overweight 40 year old white male :lol:
I've been to gaming centres and had exactly the same response though, although I found it to be quite a funny little taunt in the end for the guys that got upset about bieng beaten by a girl. Using somebody's own predjudices against them for the purposes of humiliation is wonderful! :lol:
Gaming centres are just wierd places though. It's like when you go to these places it's like "OMG! A girl! And she's not just on Facebook! I MUST TRY TURN HER STRAIGHT WITH MY SEXY ANORAK!!!!" :laugh:

Sean

10th March 2009, 14:07

Gaming centres are just wierd places though. It's like when you go to these places it's like "OMG! A girl! And she's not just on Facebook! I MUST TRY TURN HER STRAIGHT WITH MY SEXY ANORAK!!!!" :laugh:That's blatant Anoraknaphobia!

Invincible Summer

11th March 2009, 22:59

Gonna chime in and say most of the people who say something like "that's gay" don't really mean it in a hateful way and don't really hate gays. The thing is that the media is so saturated with gay jokes and shit that people don't really think about it. The kids in school especially hear it a lot and it just kinda goes into someones vocab.
That doesn't make it okay.

I can say that being in school and hearing it so much i occasionally slip up and say "that's gay" but all in all i don't think its that big of an issue.
The intent may not be to be homophobic, but the discourse which surrounds the terms "that's gay" or "faggot" are homophobic. When people say "that's gay" they mean that the object in question is "bad" or "uncool," yes? Basically, that means that one is saying that gays and negative attitudes are equivalent. Therefore, it is inherently homophobic to say those words.

PS. did anyone notice that a lot of homophobes seem to think they will never encounter a single gay man that's just like "hey, whats up?" but that the homophobes think that its always gonna be like 20 gays surrounding the homophobic dude in an ally and rapeing him.

True. My friend is pretty much your stereotypical Catholic conservative and he thinks that any gay person who is friendly is planning to molest him.

Ã‘Ã³ẊÃ®Ã¶ŉ

11th March 2009, 23:11

I hate the word "homophobia". I'm against homosexuals getting wed or adopting kids, but I'm not afraid of them. Like fuck the gay movement

Oh, I see! You're some kind of fuckwit, aren't you?

GPDP

11th March 2009, 23:21

I hate the word "homophobia". I'm against homosexuals getting wed or adopting kids, but I'm not afraid of them. Like fuck the gay movement

Go fuck yourself. Restriction is too good for you.

Comrade_XRD

11th March 2009, 23:26

It's the world out there people. The real world. I'm not saying we should tolerate it, but there are just all kinds of people we'll encounter online. I play XBox Live occasionally and hear all sorts of conversations people have while playing. They are anti-gay, anti-black, anti-latino, anti-semitic, anti-arab etc. Whenever I hear stuff like that, I just mute my mic and ignore it. I don't feed the beast any more food. Those people are probably a bunch of poorly educated high school kids anyway mixed with guys that live with their mom.

Oh and...It's true you can't have your sexual orientation in your gamertag. There was a guy who's legal last name was Gay and Microsoft wouldn't allow him to use his full legal name as his gamertag.

Black Dagger

12th March 2009, 02:08

I'm not saying we should tolerate it

You're coming awfully close then? I mean you sure are sending some mixed messages?

I.E Rampant homophobia in online gaming is 'the world out there... The real world'

Well sure - we haven't been discussing a sci-fi novel in here, so what point are you trying to make? That surely we would be foolish not to accept 'reality' or 'the real world' as you call it? Coz after all, 'there are just all kinds of people we'll encounter online.' Well obviously the internet is not populated by clones (as far as i know anyway, i'm certainly not a clone >_> ) - so what exactly is the point of this statement?

'Remember guys! The internet is full of different people!'

Yes, we understand that. The point is that some of these people are bigoted jerks or naive gnats who think that there's nothing offensive about anything they say as long as they intended their offense to mean a certain thing I.E. 'OMFG! You're such a fag' = 'you're a bit of an annoying person!'... as distinct from any other obvious meaning a person may dervive from hearing the sentence, 'OMFG! You're such a fag!'.

Whenever I hear stuff like that, I just mute my mic and ignore it. I don't feed the beast any more food.

Do you do the social equivalent when you hear bigotry on the street? On the train? In your house? From your friends?

Those people are probably a bunch of poorly educated high school kids anyway mixed with guys that live with their mom.

Actually i think the average age for a 'gamer' these days is closer to 20 than 12. Sure some live at home, but many others are uni students, have families, jobs etc. So yeah, i think the suggestion that this culture stems from an overpopulation of snivelling dull-headed teens is a bit on the cliched side? Though by no means am i denying the existence of said teens or the propensity amongst some for crass mic talk; rather i think this sort of casual homophobia is a bit more widespread than that.