Who has had the most influence on Communism?

[Communist Theory]

I'm wondering. Also if you could give your reason why you think the individual had the most influence on Communism.

[el_chavista]

Marx.

[ZeroNowhere]

I have no idea.
Because knowing would be impossible.

[Black Sheep]

Firstly, the fact that labour is external to the worker – i.e., does not belong to his essential being; that he, therefore, does not confirm himself in his work, but denies himself, feels miserable and not happy, does not develop free mental and physical energy, but mortifies his flesh and ruins his mind.

Hence, the worker feels himself only when he is not working; when he is working, he does not feel himself. He is at home when he is not working, and not at home when he is working. His labour is, therefore, not voluntary but forced, it is forced labour.

It is, therefore, not the satisfaction of a need but a mere means to satisfy needs outside itself. Its alien character is clearly demonstrated by the fact that as soon as no physical or other compulsion exists, it is shunned like the plague.
I am assuming that this quote refers to labour in a capitalist / exploitative system.. Because otherwise it is jsut false (and if not, it needs some evidence to back it up)


External labour, labour in which man alienates himself, is a labour of self-sacrifice, of mortification.
Evidence?Elaborate?



Just as in religion the spontaneous activity of the human imagination, the human brain, and the human heart, detaches itself from the individual and reappears as the alien activity of a god or of a devil, so the activity of the worker is not his own spontaneous activity. It belongs to another, it is a loss of his self.
In capitalism i guess.Because generally in real life, it makes no damn sense.
Every action is a loss of some kind..The question is whether that loss generates an 'income', a gain for the individual.

[Blackscare]

Peter Kropotkin. :D Well, I'll wager that he'll have the most impact on the *future* of communism.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Lenin. He led the first successful Communist revolution. Not only that but, it was in an unindustrialized country. Too bad it transformed into a degenerated worker's state later. :(

[Decolonize The Left]

Marx. Next question. ;)

- August

[LOLseph Stalin]

Marx. Next question. http://www.revleft.com/vb/has-had-most-p1372640/revleft/smilies/wink.gif

Well Marx is the obvious. That's why I didn't mention him. I was assuming this was excluding Marx. ;)

[Die Neue Zeit]

Although mainly uncredited, I would actually venture out to say Karl Kautsky. :D

This true founder of "Marxism" popularized the organizational "merger of socialism and the worker movement": the party (http://www.revleft.com/vb/blog.php?b=60). He, not Lenin, outlined the Marxist theory of economic imperialism from 1902-1909 (not to be confused with the senility of "ultra-imperialism"). Above all, he outlined the revolutionary-centrist "road to power" taken by the Bolsheviks themselves (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1203523&postcount=32) as being against coalitionism of the reformists and the insurrectionary general strike "action" strategy of the ultra-left.

[Vahanian]

I would say Stalin. I say this because he made most Americans think of a communist state as an oppressive gulag riddled state.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I would say Stalin. I say this because he made most Americans think of a communist state as an oppressive gulag riddled state.


*speaks in a deep Russian accent* To the Gulags with you!

[benhur]

Pol Pot. Everyone today relates communism to Pol Pot, so he must've had the most influence.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Pol Pot. Everyone today relates communism to Pol Pot, so he must've had the most influence.

To the Gulags with you too!

[StalinFanboy]

I'd say that I have had a pretty big influence on communism.


Yep.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'd say that I have had a pretty big influence on communism.


Yep.

You're just that hardcore...ok...to the Gulags with you!

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

What about Bakunin and the split between Marxists and Anarchists?

[Rjevan]

Pol Pot. Everyone today relates communism to Pol Pot, so he must've had the most influence.
I don't know, I think most people relate communism with Che Guevara, Stalin or Mao. I'm pretty sure that most people don't know Pol Pot.

Anyway, Marx had the greatest influence but if he's excluded ... Lenin, maybe because he led the first communist revolution.

[Dr.Claw]

I'd say the working class had the biggest influence but who am I to say, im not even a communist

[robbo203]

Lenin. He led the first successful Communist revolution. Not only that but, it was in an unindustrialized country. Too bad it transformed into a degenerated worker's state later. :(

Hardly. How could it be a "successful communist revolution" if it ended up with state capitalism. Thats what he wanted and thats what he got!

[LOLseph Stalin]

Hardly. How could it be a "successful communist revolution" if it ended up with state capitalism. Thats what he wanted and thats what he got!

Well it seemed to be working until Lenin died.

[benhur]

Hardly. How could it be a "successful communist revolution" if it ended up with state capitalism. Thats what he wanted and thats what he got!

Nevertheless, it was one of the greatest experiments in history. No one quite expected something like that to explode in Russia. But it did, and the sheer magnitude of the revolution itself was startling. :thumbup:

[LOLseph Stalin]

Nevertheless, it was one of the greatest experiments in history. No one quite expected something like that to explode in Russia. But it did, and the sheer magnitude of the revolution itself was startling. http://www.revleft.com/vb/has-had-most-t102890/revleft/smilies2/thumbup.gif

Indeed. It was quite valuable. It shows what NOT to do in the future. I think the fact that Russia lacked industry at the time of the revolution was a major contributer to Communism's failure there.

[robbo203]

Indeed. It was quite valuable. It shows what NOT to do in the future. I think the fact that Russia lacked industry at the time of the revolution was a major contributer to Communism's failure there.


True. This was the traditional Marxist view - that Russia was simply too undeveloped to sustain a communist revolution, developing capitalism was the only option available. But it was not just that Russia lacked industry, it was the fact that overwhelmingly the poulation did not have a communist consciousness. Without this and even with a highly developed industrial infrastructure communism would be impossible. The problem is that Lenin with his anti-marxist theory of the vanguard party based on the notion that workers by themselves are incapable of reaching a communist consciousness, hindered rather than helped the spread of communist ideas. Yes , he was a lot better than Stalin but let us not try to whitewash the guy. Much of what he did in the name of communism or socialism did untold damage to the cause

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Me.

[LOLseph Stalin]

True. This was the traditional Marxist view - that Russia was simply too undeveloped to sustain a communist revolution, developing capitalism was the only option available. But it was not just that Russia lacked industry, it was the fact that overwhelmingly the poulation did not have a communist consciousness. Without this and even with a highly developed industrial infrastructure communism would be impossible. The problem is that Lenin with his anti-marxist theory of the vanguard party based on the notion that workers by themselves are incapable of reaching a communist consciousness, hindered rather than helped the spread of communist ideas. Yes , he was a lot better than Stalin but let us not try to whitewash the guy. Much of what he did in the name of communism or socialism did untold damage to the cause

I'm not saying everything Lenin did was perfect because nobody's perfect. However, I think you're just a little harsh towards him. He did a pretty damn good job with what he had. Russia just didn't have the material conditions required for a Communist Revolution. It could have just happened because it was seen as an alternative to Tsarist rule and getting Russia out of the war. Also, I don't think enough of the working class is going to develop a Communist conciousness so I do believe that the vanguard is neccessary to guide the workers down that path.

[Communist Theory]

Well Marx is the obvious. That's why I didn't mention him. I was assuming this was excluding Marx. ;)
Yeah, Marx is meant to be excluded.

[Communist Theory]

Hardly. How could it be a "successful communist revolution" if it ended up with state capitalism. Thats what he wanted and thats what he got!
Stalin is the one that did that not Lenin.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Yeah, Marx is meant to be excluded.

Ok, that's what I thought.

[Vahanian]

Stalin is the one that did that not Lenin.

It started happening during Lenin's rule because he started to introduce elements of capitalism into Russia. but during Stalin's rule it went into full gear.

[scarletghoul]

Obama.

[Communist Theory]

Obama.
Please explain.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Please explain.

Nobody is being serious in this thread. It's like saying Joseph Mcarthy had the most influence on Communism. :p

[Communist Theory]

Yeah, we need more serious answers

[LOLseph Stalin]

Yeah, we need more serious answers

Agreed.:blushing:

[Communist Theory]

Agreed.:blushing:
Fail! Fail! fail fail fail.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Ok, well who do you think had the most influence on Communism? Is that any better?

hehe.

[Communist Theory]

Lenin of course, first Communist Revolutionary.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Lenin of course, first Communist Revolutionary.

Agreed, although Stalin later crushed all possibilities for world revolution.

[Communist Theory]

I don't want to say it but there is no other word for it, AGREED!!!:unsure:

[LOLseph Stalin]

I don't want to say it but there is no other word for it, AGREED!!!http://www.revleft.com/vb/has-had-most-t102890/revleft/smilies2/001_unsure.gif


You just had to didn't you? :p

[Communist Theory]

Well it was the only word I could think of to say that I was in agreement with you.
Stalin ruins everything.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Well it was the only word I could think of to say that I was in agreement with you.
Stalin ruins everything.

Damn Stalin! Let's Icepick him! >=)

[Communist Theory]

No, let us machine gun him and miss. :lol:

[Vahanian]

you guys and girls were just complaining about non serious posts

ADD?

[Communist Theory]

Sorry, caught up in the moment

[StalinFanboy]

Me.
Poser.

[Coggeh]

The hydrogen molecule:hammersickle:

[Cumannach]

Stalin was the greatest communist so far. Lenin died too soon to oversee the construction of socialism. I doubt he could have done much better than Stalin. Well he might have been more ruthless in purging bourgeois subversives. Who knows.

[robbo203]

Stalin was the greatest communist so far. Lenin died too soon to oversee the construction of socialism. I doubt he could have done much better than Stalin. Well he might have been more ruthless in purging bourgeois subversives. Who knows.

Gulp. I almost spilt my coffee down my front when I read this. Stalin a communist? Not only that, the "greatest communist so far". You have gotta be kidding! If I can think of one individual who has done most to tarnish the good name of communism it has got to be this megalomanicial state capitalist tyrant

[Communist Theory]

Stalin was the greatest communist so far. Lenin died too soon to oversee the construction of socialism. I doubt he could have done much better than Stalin. Well he might have been more ruthless in purging bourgeois subversives. Who knows.
In b4 STJ to call you a POSER.

[Vahanian]

Gulp. I almost spilt my coffee down my front when I read this. Stalin a communist? Not only that, the "greatest communist so far". You have gotta be kidding! If I can think of one individual who has done most to tarnish the good name of communism it has got to be this megalomanicial state capitalist tyrant

yeah i agree with this Stalin destroyed any good rep that communism had.


In b4 STJ to call you a POSER.


STJ usually doesn't post outside shit-chat:closedeyes:

[commyrebel]

I'm wondering. Also if you could give your reason why you think the individual had the most influence on Communism. Marx thought it up the basic communism. but i thin Lenin and stalin were the most but there are others

[commyrebel]

[QUOTE=Karetnik;1376384]yeah i agree with this Stalin destroyed any good rep that communism had.[QUOTE] no he did d=o someband thing at the end but over all he did good

[Vahanian]

really? you consider destroying any chance of an actual communist state good? purging the army, forced collectivization which led to death of millions good? a not to mention the personality cult he established around himself and Lenin, and censorship of art and literature. yeah real brilliant stuff comrade Stalin did. the bad out weighs the good

[Post-Something]

Marx without a doubt. Nobody else comes close.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Gulp. I almost spilt my coffee down my front when I read this. Stalin a communist? Not only that, the "greatest communist so far". You have gotta be kidding! If I can think of one individual who has done most to tarnish the good name of communism it has got to be this megalomanicial state capitalist tyrant

I agree. Considering Stalin the "greatest Communist" is just plain sickening. He caused millions of deaths through his forced collectivisation, killed off everybody who was considered a "threat" to his absolute power, censored everything, and developed a huge personality cult. He depicted himself as important in the revolution when indeed Trotsky played a way larger role than Stalin ever did.

[proudhon10]

Che!!!! Viva la revolucion!! Che brought communism to white suburban hippy kids.
Other than him, Marx and Lenin.

[PRC-UTE]

Well Marx is the obvious. That's why I didn't mention him. I was assuming this was excluding Marx. ;)

if we're excluding Marx, than I'd have to go with his collaborator Engels certainly.

[robbo203]

Communism can only be brought about through the self emancipation of the working class. Not some vanguard elite. Not some brilliant exponent of marxian economics.
In a sense this is a less than helpful thread

[Communist Theory]

if we're excluding Marx, than I'd have to go with his collaborator Engels certainly.
It seems nobody ever remembers Engels.

[Pogue]

Well it seemed to be working until Lenin died.

Yes, War Communism and NEP was perfectly functioning communism.

[Communist Theory]

Yes, War Communism and NEP was perfectly functioning communism.
Come on you know that after Lenin Communism in Russia went all to shit

[ZeroNowhere]

Come on you know that after Lenin Communism in Russia went all to shit
I assume that you're referring to the 'communist' NEP? :D

[PRC-UTE]

It seems nobody ever remembers Engels.

yeah, I find it odd. for better or worse, he put a lot of his own views and ideas on Marx's work. He got a lot of Marx's works published after the man's passing and all that.

[Pirate Utopian]

STJ usually doesn't post outside shit-chat:closedeyes:
Hmmm.... :ninja:
I got some PM's to make.

[Sam_b]

Not an individual.

The working class.

[Vahanian]

Marx and Lenin.


marx isnt in this count yo.

(wow,u just wanted to prove me wrong didnt ya:lol:)

[mykittyhasaboner]

I'd say Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao are the household names when it comes to communism. Those are the guys who are appraised more than any others in the communist movement, and they are also the most viciously attacked and condemned.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'd say Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin, Mao are the household names when it comes to communism. Those are the guys who are appraised more than any others in the communist movement, and they are also the most viciously attacked and condemned.

They are also the most fanatic and evil(Stalin and Mao).

[mykittyhasaboner]

They are also the most fanatic and evil(Stalin and Mao).
I already mentioned the fact that they are the most widely condemned (with varying degrees of credibility). If you are going to condemn there actions, than try and do so with an actual argument, not your petty moralistic crap.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I already mentioned the fact that they are the most widely condemned (with varying degrees of credibility). If you are going to condemn there actions, than try and do so with an actual argument, not your petty moralistic crap.

Let's just stick to the fact that I disagree with their ideas.

[mykittyhasaboner]

Let's just stick to the fact that I disagree with their ideas.

Great, that's fine. What ideas do you disagree with?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Great, that's fine. What ideas do you disagree with?

First of all, I disagree with Stalin's "Socialism in one Country". Even Marx himself stated that Socialism must be international. I also very strongly disagree with his status as a totalitarian dictator. He killed off everybody who was seen as a "treat" to his assumption of absolute power. He needs to lose the personality cult too. For Mao, I don't fully support the guerilla warfare thing. Vanguardism is the way to go. Mao also killed people to stay as absolute leader, including revisionists. Some of my facts could be wrong though due to bourgeois propaganda.

[mykittyhasaboner]

You want to show me where Marx said purgeing good comrades is ok? Cuz i unlike most the noobs have read everything by Marx,.

This is a straw man, where did I suggest that Marx wrote that a workers state should purge anyone? You automatically assume that because I view Stalin or Mao in a favorable light that I agree with absolutely everything they said or did. Why?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Stalin and Mao where brutal dictators and no comrades of mine.

:thumbup:

[mykittyhasaboner]

First of all, I disagree with Stalin's "Socialism in one Country". Even Marx himself stated that Socialism must be international.
Your absolutely right, socialism is in international system. 'Socialism In One Country' is not an end all position, it is simply a pragmatic position adopted by the Soviet Union in light of their vast size and amount of resources, and as a result of isolation; instead of fatalistically depending on revolutions in other parts of the world immediately.

I think Cumannach made a good post dealing with this topic, i hope he doesnt mind me linking to it.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1380689&postcount=3


I also very strongly disagree with his status as a totalitarian dictator. He killed off everybody who was seen as a "treat" to his assumption of absolute power. He needs to lose the personality cult too.
"Totalitarian Dictator"? Come on, Stalin wasn't the only guy who had pull in the SU government! Do you honestly think he personally ordered the killings of everyone who's murder is attributed to him?



For Mao, I don't fully support the guerilla warfare thing. Vanguardism is the way to go. Mao also killed people to stay as absolute leader, including revisionists. Some of my facts could be wrong though due to bourgeois propaganda.
Guerrilla Warfare doens't exclude a vanguard. Guerrilla warfare was simply the most effective means of fighting a war against the Japenese imperialists as well as the KMT. Some of your facts are probably wrong because you sound like your pulling them out of your ass.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I guess our Stalinist has nothing to say.


Are you referring to me or the other guy? If you're referring to me, i'm not Stalinist as you have hopefully figured out by now.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Thanks for standing up for thruth comrade

Just sharing my opinion. :)

[mykittyhasaboner]

I guess our Stalinist has nothing to say.

What do you want me to say to your non-argument? You've stated your opinion, which doesn't really convey anything of value. So I don't really know what the fuck you want.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I'm not sure about many others, but I prefer genuine, democratic Marxism.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Its standing up that counts.

Yes, just like I intend to stand up for the working class. :)

[Sam_b]

Wow....what a load of bullshit.

Its simply not good enough to go all moralistic and say that Stalin and Mao were 'dictators' or 'evil' without having any argument in the slightest. A post of three lines attempting to sum up the political legacies of Stalin and Mao simply does not cut it, i'm afraid. Stop with the loaded terminologies and look at the real issues.

I'm not a supporter of Stalin or Mao, but it grinds my gears when they are simply labelled and not critiqued effectively.

[bellyscratch]

I'd say from my experience in the real world (excluding Marx) Lenin and Trotsky tend to have the most influence on the political parties here.

[Communist Theory]

Kim Sung Il

[RedScare]

Stalin set the precedent and the basis for the rest of communism's history in the 20th century, with his authoritarian models for politics and economics. Every communist movement after 1927 was influenced by his policies. I personally think that's why most of them have ultimately failed, but that's just me. How Stalin's legacy will affect the movement in the 21st century is still up in the air.

[Communist Theory]

Stalin set the precedent and the basis for the rest of communism's history in the 20th century, with his authoritarian models for politics and economics. Every communist movement after 1927 was influenced by his policies. I personally think that's why most of them have ultimately failed, but that's just me. How Stalin's legacy will affect the movement in the 21st century is still up in the air.
Look at Cuba they go for the Marxist-Leninist model and they are doing quite well.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Look at Cuba they go for the Marxist-Leninist model and they are doing quite well.

I don't think they're using the Stalinist Marxist-Leninist model though. I feel there's a difference between the two.

[RedScare]

Look at Cuba they go for the Marxist-Leninist model and they are doing quite well.
There are exceptions to every rule.

[Communist Theory]

The DPRK does quite well too.

[RedScare]

The DPRK does quite well too.
At building socialism? Or simply prolonging the life of the current regime?

[Communist Theory]

Well they do have the same type of economic system as Cuba so they are trying and they have free health care.

[LOLseph Stalin]

At building socialism? Or simply prolonging the life of the current regime?

I would have to say they're doing good at prolonging the current regime. For one, the party and it's leaders are pretty much a bureaucracy. Not to mention they of course probably have special privilages. I'm not sure about the common citizens, but I would still say they're better off than those in Capitalist countries. Also, I absolutely despise the personality cult that Juche requires.