How to grow

[Pogue]

I'm fretting lately because of frustration at how small and insubstantial we revolutionaries (or socialists in general of all stripes) in the face of the recession and the rise of fascist movements are.

Whats the missing piece? Why is it we don't grow? How comes we can't get people to listen?

Basically, I'm having alot of trouble thinking about how we'll grow as a movement, a movement of revolutionary socialists. Most people don't seem interested in what we have to say. I want an opposition to fascism, but as an anarcho-syndicalist I don't see how I could do this without comprimising key principles (i.e. we can't just tell people to vote for a non-BNP group because for many people that does not cut it, or they'll vote for Labour who have done fucked up shit, reformism doesn't solve anything etc). I want the workers movement to grow but the revolutionary unions and parties are so small its impossible to even get our voices heard.

Its frustrating and I don't see how we're gonna do it...

I know this is a bit of an emo-rant but I wanted to get it off of my chest because I'm really frustrated.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

An oak tree starts as a tiny seed.





I sound like a wanker.

[ls]

People are interested in what we have to say, in fact people can be interested in anything anyone has to say if it's presented right and panders to their own selfish shitpiss (i.e. it makes sense to them and even better, if it's able to make them feel important). :P

The point being is it takes careful and intelligent organising, while there are some that are doing that, obviously not enough is being done (or we'd be going further) however hopefully this 'summer of rage' can be utilised as a platform for inciting something more solid in the way of revolution (throughout the world not just here). While that may sound far-fetched, that's currently one of the best hopes we have.

There are so many that say "Socialism/Anarchism/Communism is a great idea on paper but it couldn't work" yet when you show them examples of it working they change their minds at least a bit, then when you show them how red said place's history is or anti-red it shifts them either into being defensive or saying yeah well you never know (in my own experience of course).

[Dóchas]

i think the only way to gain support is to point out how socialism etc. will benefit them and what they will get out of it (most people are self centred and just want to get something for themselves) its a pity but its the truth.

i think another reason is that the various groups around are just waiting for each other to make the first move. i guess they are just nervous about stepping out of their comfort zone. if they all start action as one they could definitly make a difference. i suppose they could Rise As One!! :lol:

[AvanteRedGarde]

Before we should start prescribing solutions, we should probably ask why a serious revolutionary workers' movement hasn't sprung up in the U.S. (or U.K.) over the last 75 years.

Solutions like , 'we really need to do X," is youthful wishful thinking. If it was a successful revolutionary approach, it would be demonstrable.

[ComradeLands]

United we are far stronger however it is inevitable that we will have political and practical differences.

We must act together with maximum unity on issues we agree on (i.e. anti-war, anti-fascist, pro-workers rights) but also with the maximum possible democracy and freedom to criticise.

This will not only allow all revolutionaries to work with each other but also with reformists without compromising our political lines, rather proving through practice who is correct and which way forward the working class should take.

[Dimentio]

Register on SL as beautiful women and have sex with people in turn for political propaganda? XD

[Anonymous]

The socialist change will come in a natural way and is the logical phase after hyperimperialism (which is getting closer everyday). We cannot force it, we can only try and help it. Masses only react to extremely negative examples (see communist dictatorship), if capitalism would stagnate my guess is things wouldn't change, but it won't, the monster will grow, and hopefully people will realise and take matters in their hands.

[zapatista]

I'm not entirely sure how to go about this, seeing as I'm not really that great at propaganda...but I think it would be very possible to use this current 'economic crisis' to turn people against the system that caused it.

[fanoflenin]

what is SL, and why can't we pose as men and go with their beautiful women?:D

[Bilan]

Register on SL as beautiful women and have sex with people in turn for political propaganda? XD




what is SL, and why can't we pose as men and go with their beautiful women?


This isn't Chit Chat. Do not continue with this sort of behaviour.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

United we are far stronger however it is inevitable that we will have political and practical differences.

We must act together with maximum unity on issues we agree on (i.e. anti-war, anti-fascist, pro-workers rights) but also with the maximum possible democracy and freedom to criticise.

This will not only allow all revolutionaries to work with each other but also with reformists without compromising our political lines, rather proving through practice who is correct and which way forward the working class should take.

No. (see the united front thread).

[Greenman]

Three words -
Solidarity
Unity
Organisation

Solidarity is a far better thing to be involved in than mere propaganda - propaganda can be seen as preaching (and therefore self interested, and people are paradoxically very sensitive to those that they see as acting in a selfish way under capitalism, even though that is the way the prevailing leading ideology supposes we should all act) Solidarity is "putting your money where your mouth is" in the English expression, and far more likely to mean that people will listen sympathetically to your views. Talk to someone and you are a propagandist - struggle alongside them and you are a comrade!

Unity in action and defence is essential in the current period. It is nonsensical to be sectarian and purist in the current political climate in much of the world, particularly in Britain. The most success had by the left in Britain in the last 100 years has been when they have been most united. Where ideology gets in the way of this and actually weakens the class it is demonstrably counter-productive. Unity is not about abandoning your ideals, but being mature enough to prioritise the key aims and tasks of the socialist movement as a whole rather than seeking comparative advantage based on a simplistic, purist and abstract interpretation of theory, to the detriment of the movement as a whole. Over-powerful individuals, self-important manipulative "vanguards" and ultra-left dilletantism are toxic to meaningful unity - examples of one or more of these are found in every case of significant avoidable defeats for the left in Britain in recent years. The width of the united front should be determined by where the class is and where the line in the sand lies between reaction and progress on the particular issues in question, not on preconceived ideas or sectarian dogma.

Organisation is one of the most important tasks. This means workplace organisation, community organisation and political organisation. But organisation is not for organisation's sake - it is to facilitate the two things above - Unity and Solidarity. There needs to be less preciousness from "guardians of the true path" and more concern given to the basic pressing tasks - organisation for defence, education and agitation in workplaces, communities and on the electoral front. We, as conscious revolutionaries and socialists (in the broadest and most inclusive, First International sense) of whatever stripe need to get alongside people and fight on basic concerns.

There needs to be less concern over sterile competition between current Parties (big P) and more over the prefiguration of the revolutionary party (pluralist, class-wide, small p). There needs to be an understanding that in meaningful social change of the type that most of us want the class will control their destiny and choose their vehicles, not us. Our role is to use our understanding and historical awareness to facilitate a smoother journey towards this objective.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Again, the proof is in the practice. Simply laying down a rhetorical three point program is of little utility. Can someone point to something that provides real world examples on 'how to grow?'

[Q]

Again, the proof is in the practice. Simply laying down a rhetorical three point program is of little utility. Can someone point to something that provides real world examples on 'how to grow?'

If only you can propagate an alternative, be clear about the alternatives, I think that would be a huge step in the right direction. Secondly, being actively involved in the class struggle, in all its variety, is the obvious thing to do.

Do these two simple things, discuss, make contacts and organise. Then we can grow on that basis.

[Greenman]

Again, the proof is in the practice. Simply laying down a rhetorical three point program is of little utility. Can someone point to something that provides real world examples on 'how to grow?'

Obviously, on a global discussion board like this one, the actual tactics employed will differ from country to country (and even regionally within countries in larger ones).
In Britain holding fast to those three points would be a start.
Practically this might mean the bringing together of local networks of socialists, left greens and anarchists to intervene and support ongoing struggles on a practical basis. The focus would be on what unites us rather than what divides. As Q says "being actively involved in the class struggle, in all its variety, is the obvious thing to do."
Those who stand aloof from the actual, current struggle in favour of theorising about an ideal future one are doomed to irrelevance, as are those who can only work in campaigns/struggles that they have complete ideological control of, or agreement with.

[nuisance]

A problem, it seems with the left and for party orientated activists, is the need to deliver the ideology they back before proposing the action they suggest should be taken. This bores people and plants seeds of suspicion that you're involved in the particular struggle to further your own cause- which I'd suggest is true for too many groups. Just like paper sales, at meetings called by people directly involved in the issue, seemingly hijacking events.
In revolutionary struggle it is not important that everyone has read certain texts, but it is however important that individuals have the knowledge and confidence to organise in ways that will benefit the cause of their liberation, which can be done to the greatest effect through actively participating in struggles themselves. For example tentants associations. Yes, these associations fit ideologically with what various groups say. So what? The point is that they are effective and it is that fact that people get invovled. It is important to note that I am not terming analysis as useless or that revolutionaries should avoid issues that they are not directly effected by. What is being argued for is the insemination of ideas into struggle. We should be confident in the strength of types of organisation we propose and not feel it necessary to alienate people by flooding groups.
Action like this doesn't just empower the people involved, but is also contagious if considered successful and can thus be adopted by numerous amounts of people in similar situtations and building their own links with groups fighting a common cause- organising confrontation with the foe.
What has to be remembered is that the 'movement' is not a revolutionary organisation or party, it is general dissent among the working population whom are militantly in confrontation with the capitalist class. This will grow in struggle through the promotion of ideas and practice. Organisations are their to aid the revolutionary class, not to coerce the class in the fight for liberation.