Can we support these countries?

[Comrade Anarchist]

There are a couple of so called communist and socialist countries out there but can we support any of them. China has horrific human rights record and i cant any form support them with a concious. North korea just needs to stop calling itself communist and call itself a facism. Cuba has had the same leader for the past 40 years and that just seems like state capitalist more than socialist if my definitions are correct. And venezuela and chavez makes me feel uneasy b/c it feels like he is stretching his hands a little too much. Can we ever get accepted if some of us think China is number 1 and put on blinders whenever they kill innocents. So we need to stop supporting these countries and need to unite and say no to these countries so they lose foreign support.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

There are a couple of so called communist and socialist countries out there but can we support any of them. China has horrific human rights record and i cant any form support them with a concious. North korea just needs to stop calling itself communist and call itself a facism. Cuba has had the same leader for the past 40 years and that just seems like state capitalist more than socialist if my definitions are correct. And venezuela and chavez makes me feel uneasy b/c it feels like he is stretching his hands a little too much. Can we ever get accepted if some of us think China is number 1 and put on blinders whenever they kill innocents. So we need to stop supporting these countries and need to unite and say no to these countries so they lose foreign support.

I don't think it's a good idea to support any of them. The only one that I think might actually be a proletarian democracy is Cuba, but with all of the propaganda, it's nearly impossible to make accurate conclusions, and if you decide to support it you'd be doing it pretty much on faith that your sources were right. I doubt anyone on here supports China.

[The Intransigent Faction]

There are a couple of so called communist and socialist countries out there but can we support any of them.

There "were" Socialist republics, but Socialism has collapsed in many parts of the world as a result of constant harassment by Capitalist nations.


China has horrific human rights record and i cant any form support them with a concious.

The United States'/rest of the West's human rights record is hardly better. While I don't support the modern Chinese system, I certainly have problems with constant attacks regarding human rights from a country where private health care dominates, and where wealth is distributed in a ridiculously uneven way. You may also agree that there's nothing counter-revolutionary about supporting a sign of revolutionary potential from the modern Chinese proletariat, to retake what they lost.


North korea just needs to stop calling itself communist and call itself a facism.

To be fair, North Korea never called itself Communist. It is a "Democratic People's Republic" that claims to intend to build Socialism, and although there are valid criticisms to be made, the problems result largely from the Capitalist domination of the global economy, and to some extent it's own issues, perhaps.


Cuba has had the same leader for the past 40 years and that just seems like state capitalist more than socialist if my definitions are correct.

They aren't. First off, the United States has, for decades, been harassing Cuba and trying to assassinate Castro. When the Nazis had reached the English channel, for example, there was no parliamentary squabbling amongst parties in Britain, because of the greater threat and the need to stop that threat. FDR ran for more than two terms, if I'm not mistaken.
With the trade embargo and over 700 assassination attempts, Castro stands as a symbol of resistance, although Cuban democracy in the sense of elections has been halted by constant outside pressure. In spite of this, Cuba has ensured its workers have access to health care, education, homes, and other things denied to many citizens in Capitalist countries.


And venezuela and chavez makes me feel uneasy b/c it feels like he is stretching his hands a little too much. Can we ever get accepted if some of us think China is number 1 and put on blinders whenever they kill innocents. So we need to stop supporting these countries and need to unite and say no to these countries so they lose foreign support.

Venezuela is more "progressive" than Socialist, as far as I know about it, but as for China, "they kill innocents" is an accusation that could be easily repeated against the countries generally making that accusation, only China has made much greater steps toward human rights in the past than the United States and various other countries. We do not "need to stop supporting these countries". I think that's a sincere oversight of yours. What we need to do is, in fact, support revolutionary proletariat wherever theyare in the modern world.

[cyu]

The reality is that no government, politician, or country can be perfect. If we're going to just voice our unquestioning support of anything, it will just make us look bad when they screw up. The smarter thing to do is to just say you support what they did here, but not what they did there. It leaves you less open to criticism that way.

It's kind of like evolution in a way. In any organism's DNA, there's good stuff and bad stuff. The idea is to propagate the good stuff and leave the bad stuff in the dustbin of history.

[Qayin]

Venezuela
Bolivia
Cuba

those are the only left leaning countries I support
and barely at that
castro fucked up

[LOLseph Stalin]

I have to admit that none of those countries you've mentioned have never even been close to Communist. North Korea is pretty much controlled by an oligarchy, while the common people are suffering. China is pretty much Capitalist, and the USSR was a degenerated worker's state. However, Cuba seems to be decent and Venezuela seems to be heading in the right direction. Despite what Bourgeois propaganda says, I see nothing wrong with supporting these places. Cuba does afterall, have one of the best health care and education systems in the world.

[proudhon10]

Venezuela and Chavez are worth supporting as well as castro in cuba, morales in bolivia, and...well...thats it, i pretty much agree with xAMKx

[Jack]

None of them. China abandoned socialism (now its economy is failing, go figuire), Castro has a dictatorship. Trade unionists have been killed by the Venezualen government, North Korea is just a military dictatorship.

[Glorious Union]

To me, no real communistic country exists at the current moment, and they ought not to claim themselves to be such. Communism has a very tainted name because of countries claiming to be communistic, even after they have strayed far from the original goals and intents of their cause.

[manic expression]

Anyone who doubts the working-class control of Cuba needs to read this link here:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html (http://members.allstream.net/%7Edchris/CubaFAQ.html)

Of special interest is the link of the left, "Democracy in Cuba". All the claims are supported with reputable sources. The only kind of dictatorship in Cuba is that of the workers.

[LOLseph Stalin]

To me, no real communistic country exists at the current moment, and they ought not to claim themselves to be such. Communism has a very tainted name because of countries claiming to be communistic, even after they have strayed far from the original goals and intents of their cause.

Very true. Whenever people think about Communism the first things to come to their mind are China and the USSR. China is State Capitalist and The USSR was a degenerated worker's state.


Anyone who doubts the working-class control of Cuba needs to read this link here:

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ.html (http://www.anonym.to/?http://members.allstream.net/%7Edchris/CubaFAQ.html)

Of special interest is the link of the left, "Democracy in Cuba". All the claims are supported with reputable sources. The only kind of dictatorship in Cuba is that of the workers.

And yes, I have hope for Cuba. I think they're the closest thing to Communism in the world today.

[Revulero]

I also have hope for Cuba, but I also have my doubts if Raul leads the way China is going. I do support the left leaning Latin American countries like Bolivia, Ecuador, and Venezuela despite hearing the negative stuff about Chavez, I think he well better the lives of the poor. As for Nicaragua I'am disillusioned by much of Ortegas actions. There is also El Salvador with the Fmln leading the polls, but I hear their candidate may be moderate, but thats something I'll have to look up.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Well just think. Those left leaning countries that aren't fully Socialist are still better than all those reactionary countries out there who oppress their workers.

[SEKT]

I think we should support the working class and every human being that wants to be free of capitalism not precisely States.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I think we should support the working class and every human being that wants to be free of capitalism not precisely States.

I pretty much agree, but it's the states pretending to be "Socialist/Communist" that aren't that we need to worry about. I don't really want that to be our image. I want people, especially the working class to look favoritably upon us rather than seeing us as blood-thirsty killers. If people see us as a positive force in society then we would have alot easier time organizing and revolution would likely come sooner. Of course we would still need the correct material conditions...

[JimmyJazz]

Socialism is a yardstick to measure every country by. Anyone who says "This country is socialist, that country is not" is simplifying. No country has ever implemented any ideology to the satisfaction of every adherent of that ideology.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Socialism is a yardstick to measure every country by. Anyone who says "This country is socialist, that country is not" is simplifying. No country has ever implemented any ideology to the satisfaction of every adherent of that ideology.


It all depends on ideology. Obviously an Anti-Revisionist is going to think differently about it than an Anarchist.

[Hessian Peel]

All progressive forces deserve our support in the fight against imperialism, even if particular aspects of their politics may be 'deformed' or regressive.

[mykittyhasaboner]

It all depends on ideology. Obviously an Anti-Revisionist is going to think differently about it than an Anarchist.
While that's true, I think what Jimmy was trying to get across as that there is no set standard for socialism. Each country has different conditions and requirements to be met before socialism can be developed. These conditions vary from military occupations, undeveloped economies/dependence on foreign investment, while others are more have a largely industrialized economy and have vasts amounts of natural resources (like Russia for example). Therefore it would be reductionist to simply say "country A is socialist, while Country B isnt' because it hasn't done X like country A has." So regardless of ideology, we should have a materialist outlook of different countries, and what needs to be done in order to get on the right path towards socialism in said country.



All progressive forces deserve our support in the fight against imperialism, even if particular aspects of their politics may be 'deformed' or regressive.While I agree that all forces who are fighting against imperialism deserve the support of communists, we should be wary of entering political alliances simply on that basis. We should be staunchly critical if an anti-imperialist movement promotes homophobic, misogynist etc social politics.

[Bitter Ashes]

I think Cuba is getting closer towards making itself a better place as each year passes, has done so ever since the revolution and continues to. It does seem a very long process though, where although it's always moving forwards, it seems to take its time in doing so. Obviously, compared to our own countries where things are degrading further away by each year on more things than that which is good, it's a great example. Is there a reason though that it's taking so long for Cuba to progress though?

[LOLseph Stalin]

Is there a reason though that it's taking so long for Cuba to progress though?

You do have to keep in mind that the Americans tried to destroy Fidel Castro's government several times. That could definitely slow things down.

[Vahanian]

also the USSR collapsing didn't help to much. also the us embargo on cuban goods

[mykittyhasaboner]

You do have to keep in mind that the Americans tried to destroy Fidel Castro's government several times. That could definitely slow things down.

That and the embargo that the US imposed on Cuba which causes their economy to lose millions annually. It could be argued that the embargo is an act of genocide.

[LOLseph Stalin]

also the USSR collapsing didn't help to much. also the us embargo on cuban goods

Yep, considering much of Cuba's support came from the USSR since obviously the American's weren't willing to trade with a "threat" to their "freedom".

[LOLseph Stalin]

It could be argued that the embargo is an act of genocide.

I could argue that and i'm pretty sure I have. ;)

[Bitter Ashes]

So, summing up, Cuba is still on the defensive and until it gets time to get a breather from the captialists, it will have trouble making any fast moves forward? Bleh, if only the capitalists would stop picking on Cuba, we could really see what it's capable of! :(
Mind you, that's probably exactly the thing the capitalists worry about :lol:

[LOLseph Stalin]

Bleh, if only the capitalists would stop picking on Cuba, we could really see what it's capable of! http://www.revleft.com/vb/can-we-support-p1385175/revleft/smilies/sad.gif


probably.


Mind you, that's probably exactly the thing the capitalists worry about http://www.revleft.com/vb/can-we-support-p1385175/revleft/smilies2/laugh.gif

And yes, of course they would worry. They don't want to see their perfect Capitalist system destroyed.

[JimmyJazz]

It all depends on ideology. Obviously an Anti-Revisionist is going to think differently about it than an Anarchist.

Well, no, because which came first? China's attempt at socialism, or the terms "anti-revisionism"/"Maoism"? The ideology they were trying to implement in China was socialism. The actual thing that came out the other end looked unique from what any other "socialist" country had tried, and from what people had in their head as a picture of socialism, so they came up with a new name for it--"Maoism"--for handy reference. But socialism was their original ideology.

With anarchism/Marxism you may have a point, because that split happened in the socialist camp before socialism had been tried in any country. So that was a genuine difference of ideology. But all the other big splits have been over a specific country and whether to consider it socialist.

[Incendiarism]

I would defend North Korea against US interests.

[LOLseph Stalin]

I would defend North Korea against US interests.

Argh...don't even get me started up about North Korea...

[Revy]

I think we should support the working class and every human being that wants to be free of capitalism not precisely States.

agreed.

[Wakizashi the Bolshevik]

I don't see the point of calling yourself "Communist" while denouncing all Communists that have avhieved anything...

[Pogue]

I don't see the point of calling yourself "Communist" while denouncing all Communists that have avhieved anything...

We wouldn't see the heads of these states as communists or say they've acheived of much worth.

[el_chavista]

I think Cuba is getting closer towards making itself a better place as each year passes, has done so ever since the revolution and continues to. It does seem a very long process though, where although it's always moving forwards, it seems to take its time in doing so. Obviously, compared to our own countries where things are degrading further away by each year on more things than that which is good, it's a great example. Is there a reason though that it's taking so long for Cuba to progress though?
Of course, Cuban revolution started in a backward peasant country, unindustrialized, poor in energetic and mineral resources (except nickel).
Can Cuba go fast from economical backwardness to socialism in such a condition?

[Adam KH]

Even Democrats can admit that Cuba has better health care and education than the US.

I'd say Cuba has exceeded expectations.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Of course, Cuban revolution started in a backward peasant country, unindustrialized, poor in energetic and mineral resources (except nickel).
Can Cuba go fast from economical backwardness to socialism in such a condition?

Same thing that happened in the USSR and it eventually fell.


Even Democrats can admit that Cuba has better health care and education then the US.

I'd say Cuba has exceeded expectations.

Cuba has some of the best health care and education in the world. Proof that Socialism fails, eh? ;)

[Adam KH]

The world's capitalist nations are deep in recession, while Venezuela and Belarus are in economic acceleration.

Capitalism is a good idea in theory, but it just doesn't work. :laugh:

[LOLseph Stalin]

The world's capitalist nations are deep in recession, while Venezuela and Belarus are in economic acceleration.

Capitalism is a good idea in theory, but it just doesn't work. http://www.revleft.com/vb/can-we-support-p1386634/revleft/smilies2/lol.gif

Yes, just like many people say Communism is good in theory, but doesn't work. :laugh:
It would sure be nice to make billions, but then I would be leaving too many people behind in poverty. :(

Also, that's part of Capitalism. It's a cycle. When the economy is good people buy alot of stuff. All this shopping then creates more demands, inflation, etc. The economy then goes down. Hopefully it stays down so Socialism can have a chance.

[ZeroNowhere]

With anarchism/Marxism you may have a point, because that split happened in the socialist camp before socialism had been tried in any country. So that was a genuine difference of ideology.
Not necessarily.
Also, if only the capitalist US would trade with Cuba and end the embargo, things would progress? Well, progress further towards private capitalism, presumably.


The world's capitalist nations are deep in recession, while Venezuela and Belarus are in economic acceleration.

Capitalism is a good idea in theory, but it just doesn't work.
Apparently, it's working pretty well for Venezuela and Belarus.

[Sam_b]

I don't think the question can ever be as clear-cut as 'support' or 'not support'. Thinking of it in the abstract raises the idea of revolutionary socialists, communists or anarchists ever truly being able to support what is basically forms of a nation state. But I don't think this is the point here persay.

It is not clear cut precisely because we cannot carte-blanche be supporting everything these current states stand for. For example, I recognise the gains made by the Cuban revolution, and the state's achievements in education and healthcare, but I do have big concerns about the true nature of worker's power in Cuba as I believe the country to be state-capitalist. However, this does not prevent me from supporting Cuba in its defence against imperialism.

[Adam KH]

Not necessarily.
Also, if only the capitalist US would trade with Cuba and end the embargo, things would progress? Well, progress further towards private capitalism, presumably.


Apparently, it's working pretty well for Venezuela and Belarus.

You could make a convincing argument that these countries are a long way from socialism. But I'm interested in why you think they're capitalist.

A few weeks ago, rice companies in Venezuela were witholding the rice supply to raise prices and maximize profits. Chavez jailed them, seized control of their facilities, and began equally distributing the rice to his people.

In my opinion, both the rice moguls and the people got what they deserved. Sounds like a good step towards socialism to me.

[Ptah_Khnemu]

Support the people, not the state.

[LOLseph Stalin]

Support the people, not the state.

Until we have a successful revolution it'll be impossible to remove all borders. Nation states are a Bourgeois creation.

[Shin Honyong]

I would defend the DPRK from attempts by the Republic of Korea and USA to destroy it, and support attempts within the country by true revolutionaries to overthrow that despotic hypernationalist monarchy.