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Dejavu
27th February 2009, 20:52
I have recently rethought my views on self-ownership and abandoned the classical definition of it as described by Hans Hoppe.

Self-ownership runs into the problem of a metaphysical duality which can be thrown away as mysticism IMO. If something is owned , it implies an owner. Yet, how can I own myself if I am myself? It would be rather absurd to say that a house owns itself.

Since I am a materialist, I don't think its necessary to invoke a 'self' that has no material grounding.

'Self-ownership,' however, does have practical applications. Such as a human should have the right to give away or sell his kidney or blood to another person. I don't think any decent person would claim that people do not have a right over their own blood. In this sense a person is exercising property rights over their own being.

However, as a philosophical grounding for property rights, I think it falls short. Perhaps its time that libertarians and market anarchists revisit the definition of self-ownership and throw away the mystical implications of it.

Here is an essay I pretty much agree with:


Self-ownership is a meaningless concept. (http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2008/09/16/self-ownership-is-a-meaningless-concept/)

Posted September 16 2008
Filed under: Left Libertarian.org feed (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/left-libertarianorg-feed/), The principles of freedom (http://en.wordpress.com/tag/the-principles-of-freedom/) |
The concept of rights is a controversial one, even amongst Anarchists, and I think that is mainly because people have a false notion of what a right is. People, I think, believe that a right is a positive obligation on yourself towards others, but that is a statist concept. As I have discussed before (http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2007/10/28/why-peoples-beliefs-about-rights-are-wrong-part-12/), from an Anarchist perspective, all that a right means is that we (as individuals, and by extension as social groups) are justified in using force to defend ourselves in certain circumstances. This is something that very few people would dispute, and thus the concept of rights should not be controversial. The Anarchist framework also eliminates the absurd idea (http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2008/01/18/market-anarchist-theory-on-criminals-rights/) of “taking away a person’s rights” when they commit a criminal action.
One thing that makes people reject the concept of rights is the concept of self-ownership. Most people who believe in rights would say that self-ownership is the foundation of individual rights. Yet this position is absurd, since there is no such thing as self-ownership.
For one thing, there is no such thing as the self, at least in the common conception of what the “self” might be. There is no entity somewhere in me called “Francois Tremblay.” What I might associate with my self- my memories, my personality, my capacity to reason, my recognition of other people, and many other things- are all part of an ever-fluctuating mass of neurons. A more sane concept of the self may be to define the self as a process of experience, not as fixed states.
But even if we take this view, how is the self bounded? Is it the mind, which is the construct through which we receive our experiences? But the mind is an activity of the brain, and therefore we cannot isolate the mind from the brain. So is the self bounded by the brain? But without the rest of the body, especially our sensory organs and nervous system, the brain is useless as a source of selfhood. The self, therefore, if it is to make sense at all, must be a property of the body, not merely of one or the other organ.
This leads us to the rather disappointing conclusion that “self-ownership” means “the body owns the body.” But this is an utterly trivial and useless proposition. When I say “I own this chair,” I mean nothing more than the fact that I legitimately control the chair. But there can be no relationship of control between an entity and itself. If there is no distinction between owner and owned, then no relationship of ownership actually does not, and cannot, exist. The body itself is a moral agent (a “self”), and therefore it cannot possibly be owned by anything or anyone.
If this is true, then how do we define slavery? After all, slavery is commonly defined as the ownership of another human being. But we can see this is quite impossible. A slaveowner does not own the free will of his slave: all he can do is issue orders and back them with threats, and the might of the State (when it is available). If it was possible to actually own another human being, then one would not need any orders or threats, but simply to will the other human being to act in this or that way, just as we do with “our own bodies” (this common turn of phrase, having been disproven, must now be put between quotes).
What the slaveowner owns (illegitimately, may I add) is not the human being himself, but rather the rights of that human being. The slave is seen as being unjustified in any act of force, and the right to use force in defense of the slave is now owned by the slaveowner. The slaveowner is justified in using force to defend the slave, because he wishes to defend his property. But the slaveowner is also justified in using force against the slave, and the slave (according to the doctrine of slavery) has no rights against him. In short, the slave is treated as any inanimate object, a chair, a desk or a plank of wood, which by definition have no rights.
When the State stakes its claim on what we can or cannot do with our bodies, this should also not be seen as claiming ownership over us (unless a statist declares this, in which case it is a contradiction). Rather, we should see it as an attempt by the State to gain more positive rights against us. Indeed, what the State is basically doing by, for instance, banning drug use or abortions is to treat our bodies as something that is contained within the State, that belongs to the State, and that can therefore be protected by force by the State from our own actions. If we accept the democratic premise that we are the government, that we, our bodies, are part of the State, then it is no wonder that we accept such unjust laws, isn’t it?
If self-ownership does not exist, and thus cannot be the foundation that helps us determine the rights that exist, how do we define the nature of rights? Kinsella’s estoppel argument gives us the answer: rights exist because acts of aggression exist. If there were no aggressors in society, we would have no need to defend ourselves, or to examine whether such defense is just or not, and thus we would not talk about rights. But how do we define what is to be protected, which is to say, how do we define aggression? Once again let me give you my favourite quote on the subject of rights:
When I describe a man as an invader, I cast no reflection upon him; I simply state a fact, Nor do I assert for a moment the moral inferiority of the invader’s desire. I only declare the impossibility of simultaneously gratifying the invader’s desire to invade and my desire to be let alone. That these desires are morally equal I cheerfully admit, but they cannot be equally realized. Since one must be subordinated to the other, I naturally prefer the subordination of the invader’s, and am ready to co-operate with non-invasive persons to achieve that result.
Benjamin Tucker
Unlike Tucker, I would not say that all desires are morally equal, but I would agree that we should treat one people’s values and decisions are being equal to everyone else’s. I would say self-destructive behaviour is not morally equal to constructive behaviour, but an individual who is acting self-destructively has as much right to act in that way as someone who acts constructively.
That small distinction being made, Tucker’s argument provides us another way of seeing the fundamental point that rights come from the need to respond to aggression. Tucker defined aggression as a “violation of equal liberty,” meaning that, all desires being morally equal, no individual should try to impose his desires over another person’s. In moral terms, I would interpret this as the position that an aggressor is someone whose actions interfere with someone else’s value-expression.
If we take that as a premise, then we can easily see how to derive the standards rights that we know. We have rights to life (and to suicide, which I would say is almost as important a right), liberty, self-determination (both for the individual and for the communities which individuals form), freedom of expression, to be treated equally and fairly by the law (which in Anarchist terms would translate into the universality principle (http://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2006/10/14/the-moral-razor-slashing-moral-nonsense-part-12/)), freedom of movement, property, and so on. All of these can be more simply seen as forms of value-expression, or ways of systemically preserving value-expression (e.g. opposition to State intervention).
This foundation of rights, like self-ownership, refutes the existence of “social, cultural and economic rights” (as opposed to the rights I have just talked about, which are commonly called “human rights”) such as a right to work or a right to education, since these imply aggressing on other people. You could say that I have the right to freedom of education, I have the right to acquire an education in any way I can if that’s what I so desire, just like I have a right to freedom as a whole, but I do not have the right to an education. If I have a right to an education, then other people must be coerced into giving me an education, in accordance with whatever rules are set for this right by the ruling class (for obviously we must define and specify what an education is, in order to give people a right to it). if the educators in a given society refused to dispense such education, or disagreed with the rules proposed, then they would have to be aggressed upon to do so, since they would be breaking my right.
One could argue, using the equality principle, that economic equality is necessary for freedom, and is therefore also a right. I agree with this statement, but only insofar as we are talking about the Anarchist concept of equality, which is not distinct from freedom and therefore follows the same logic. Equality is certainly not an “economic right.” Neither, for that matter, is the idea of collective possession of natural resources. Neither of these imply aggression by their mere existence, like all “economic” rights, and they can both be completely translated in terms of “human rights.”
So, while self-ownership is meaningless, rights can be derived from the justified protection of value-expression. Is it possible for someone to deny that it is justified to protect value-expression? Kinsella’s estoppel argument refutes such attempts, just as it always does. If we claim that protecting one’s value-expression is unjustified, then we are necessarily saying that attacking another person’s value-expression is justified. But if that is the case, then rights still exist: we have merely changed their content to “you can use force to suppress value-expression in others,” in short the only right left in existence is the right to suppress directed actions. But since such a suppression is a directed action itself, it is a contradiction, and thus the scenario collapses.
Thoughts and opinions?

RGacky3
27th February 2009, 21:17
There is no entity somewhere in me called “Francois Tremblay.” What I might associate with my self- my memories, my personality, my capacity to reason, my recognition of other people, and many other things- are all part of an ever-fluctuating mass of neurons

That is still a matter of debate, exactly what the self is. It goes into a metaphisical area which to this time is impossible to answer. Duality still has'nt been disproven or proven, and there are good points for both sides, and both have implications that many would'nt accept.

Also the term self-ownership of coarse is flawed, because you ARE yourself, thats a basic concept.

That being said the idea of self is a seperate philisophical idea to that of property.

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 21:25
That is still a matter of debate, exactly what the self is. It goes into a metaphisical area which to this time is impossible to answer. Duality still has'nt been disproven or proven, and there are good points for both sides, and both have implications that many would'nt accept.

Also the term self-ownership of coarse is flawed, because you ARE yourself, thats a basic concept.

That being said the idea of self is a seperate philisophical idea to that of property.

The idea of a metaphysical 'self' opens the door to a bunch of bunk theories ( in all probability) such as religious connotations of an external non-physical 'soul' or 'spirit.' I agree such a proposition cannot be empirically proved/disproved simply because we lack any evidence to test to which the probability curve shifts in favor of non-existence.

I agree, self-ownership does seem to run into a huge contradiction/paradox when referring to the self and thus should be redefined or abandoned.

If the self cannot be logically owned then you are correct, it has nothing to do with the concept of property.

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 21:30
I still think that no necessary contradictions are apparent when saying one owns the product of their labor ( i.e. human energy). Without their energy ( mental and/or physical) such a product would not even exist and it would not have any market value though the hypothetical product in the abstract still has value associated with it ( by the maker) or else it would not be made.

I.e. If I want to exhume energy on creating X , but X does not exist yet, X has value to me and yields some expected future gratification either for trade or my own personal use. Once X is created, it is an external manifestation of my labor embodied in a product and thus I think the maker can claim legitimate rights over the product up to and including legitimately trading the product with someone else.

However, basing this on a theory of 'self-ownership' in which the concept itself is ill-defined is nebulous at best and the concept of 'self owning self' becomes somewhat of a tautology and is meaningless.

Decolonize The Left
27th February 2009, 21:32
That is still a matter of debate, exactly what the self is. It goes into a metaphisical area which to this time is impossible to answer. Duality still has'nt been disproven or proven, and there are good points for both sides, and both have implications that many would'nt accept.

No, it isn't "a matter of debate." All arguments for dualism fall to rational critique.

The "self" is a fiction, a story human beings write about their lives.

Ex: A person approaches you and asks "who are you?" You reply, "my name is X, I'm from Y, I attended school Z, etc..." You tell a story. You are not those past events, you are an autonomous material body.

The fact that your brain has the capacity to reflect upon the conditions of existence do not bring into existence a new entity (a self)...

- August

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 21:43
No, it isn't "a matter of debate." All arguments for dualism fall to rational critique.

The "self" is a fiction, a story human beings write about their lives.

Ex: A person approaches you and asks "who are you?" You reply, "my name is X, I'm from Y, I attended school Z, etc..." You tell a story. You are not those past events, you are an autonomous material body.

The fact that your brain has the capacity to reflect upon the conditions of existence do not bring into existence a new entity (a self)...

- August

This is a tough nut to crack. I would agree with you that in all probability a metaphysical self does not exist. Again, we don't know everything and we can't say this with all certainty but we have no reason to shift probability on the existence of a metaphysical self yet.

However, in the material sense, humans are distinguished biologically and genetically lending to the uniqueness of individuality. Part of it is shaped by nature ( i.e. genetic commonality and variance) the other is by nurture ( i.e. experiences).

Even our experiences distinguish us from other material beings. Perhaps the overarching proposition of 'self' related to this is a misnomer or ill-defined at best.

I do believe 'self' can be defined to accurately describe material existence of a particular agent. However, this is a another realm of science and philosophy that would easily take up pages on the boards :laugh:

What is 'I?' What is legitimately 'I?' Perhaps the sum of experiences of a particular material agent and the physical material characteristics of that individual that makes him/her discreet from other material beings.

Don't you love philosophy? LOL.

Decolonize The Left
27th February 2009, 21:49
This is a tough nut to crack. I would agree with you that in all probability a metaphysical self does not exist. Again, we don't know everything and we can't say this with all certainty but we have no reason to shift probability on the existence of a metaphysical self yet.

We have plenty of reasons to believe that the self, as a metaphysical substance, does not exist - namely, history.

Just as with religion, history relates to us the countless concepts and ideas/ideologies which were posited as real and material, but which turned out to be total nonsense.



Even our experiences distinguish us from other material beings. Perhaps the overarching proposition of 'self' related to this is a misnomer or ill-defined at best.

I do believe 'self' can be defined to accurately describe material existence of a particular agent. However, this is a another realm of science and philosophy that would easily take up pages on the boards :laugh:

What is 'I?' What is legitimately 'I?' Perhaps the sum of experiences of a particular material agent and the physical material characteristics of that individual that makes him/her discreet from other material beings.

No, the self cannot be "the sum of experiences of a particular material agent and the physical material characteristics of that individual."

Ex: A person is a highly devout Christian. They encounter some resistance to their faith on a particular forum. They rationalize these arguments and understand that their faith is entirely unfounded and historically insane. They abandon their faith. You speak to them and say, "but you were religious." They reply, "that is no longer me."

The point of this example is to show how identification is the determinant of the "self." It is not the sum of anything, rather it is a story which one writes whereby one positions main characters with different characteristics in situations (one's personal history).

Given that identity itself is a fiction, it only follows that since identity is primary determinant of the self, that the self is a fiction as well.

The only definition of the self which I find philosophically acceptable is: a locus of sense-making ability.


Don't you love philosophy? LOL.

Yes, yes I do.

- August

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 22:11
We have plenty of reasons to believe that the self, as a metaphysical substance, does not exist - namely, history.

Just as with religion, history relates to us the countless concepts and ideas/ideologies which were posited as real and material, but which turned out to be total nonsense.

I would say we have no reason to believe the metaphysical self exists simply because we lack hard evidence of its existence. We can't say for sure ( a discipline like science does not claim certainty) but probability is against a metaphysical self just like its against a god.

Depends on what kind of history you're talking about. Natural history has nothing to do with human concepts insofar as shaping that history. Human concepts only help us interpret that history. If you are talking about written history from the human perspective then it is subjective and cannot really be relied upon as an objective measure.

History, from the human perspective , only reveals to us that people believed ( and still do believe) in supernatural things. Science tells us that is highly improbable that these supernatural posits actually exist.

We agree ( I think).



No, the self cannot be "the sum of experiences of a particular material agent and the physical material characteristics of that individual."

I give room for 'self' being possible misnomer.


Ex: A person is a highly devout Christian. They encounter some resistance to their faith on a particular forum. They rationalize these arguments and understand that their faith is entirely unfounded and historically insane. They abandon their faith. You speak to them and say, "but you were religious." They reply, "that is no longer me."

But its a true statement if they refer to that person in the past-tense, not in the present. At one time he was an Xtian but that is only defining of his past, not present. Perhaps 'self' can only be accurately descriptive in real-time. I see your point, it would not be the experience of him being an Xtian that defines 'himself.' Only 'himself' in the past.



The point of this example is to show how identification is the determinant of the "self." It is not the sum of anything, rather it is a story which one writes whereby one positions main characters with different characteristics in situations (one's personal history).

Given that identity itself is a fiction, it only follows that since identity is primary determinant of the self, that the self is a fiction as well.

However ,it still his 'his' history as possessive and pertaining to his past. It is distinguishing this particular story to an individual which identifies him ( at least in past experience or historical terms) distinct from someone else.

Identity is not necessarily false if it accurately describes reality. Virtually all things, including words , identify concepts and discreet objects in reality. It is essential to concept formation. A is A only because A has certain characteristics distinct from B and is extremely useful for concept formation. Law of Identity.


a locus of sense-making ability.

I'm not saying I disagree but can you elaborate?


Yes, yes I do.

'Me' too, brother.

Decolonize The Left
27th February 2009, 22:21
I would say we have no reason to believe the metaphysical self exists simply because we lack hard evidence of its existence. We can't say for sure ( a discipline like science does not claim certainty) but probability is against a metaphysical self just like its against a god.

Depends on what kind of history you're talking about. Natural history has nothing to do with human concepts insofar as shaping that history. Human concepts only help us interpret that history. If you are talking about written history from the human perspective then it is subjective and cannot really be relied upon as an objective measure.

History, from the human perspective , only reveals to us that people believed ( and still do believe) in supernatural things. Science tells us that is highly improbable that these supernatural posits actually exist.

We agree ( I think).

We do.


I give room for 'self' being possible misnomer.

Fair enough.


But its a true statement if they refer to that person in the past-tense, not in the present. At one time he was an Xtian but that is only defining of his past, not present. Perhaps 'self' can only be accurately descriptive in real-time. I see your point, it would not be the experience of him being an Xtian that defines 'himself.' Only 'himself' in the past.

But the metaphysical notion of the self is a constant through time...


Identity is not necessarily false if it accurately describes reality. Virtually all things, including words , identify concepts and discreet objects in reality. It is essential to concept formation. A is A only because A has certain characteristics distinct from B and is extremely useful for concept formation. Law of Identity.

I didn't say identity was false, only that it was a fiction - a necessary fiction. It's a long, long, article, but Daniel Dennett has some interesting things to say. You can find the entire book (I think) here (http://www.scribd.com/doc/2601725/The-Minds-I-by-Daniel-C-Dennett).


I'm not saying I disagree but can you elaborate?

The self is a locus of sense-making ability. That is to say that the self is a center (within the material world, and among many other centers) of sense-making ability (that is the ability to make sense of experience, to rationalize, to think, etc...).

- August

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 22:32
But the metaphysical notion of the self is a constant through time...Possibly for the sake of consistency relative to human descriptions of 'themselves' through time and in present time? Or to avoid confusion? I could say ( when speaking of my own history) 'This guy' that called himself 'Dejavu' used to think X but such third person descriptions of one's own role in his own narrative history is redundant and potentially confusing.


I didn't say identity was false, only that it was a fiction - a necessary fiction. It's a long, long, article, but Daniel Dennett has some interesting things to say. You can find the entire book (I think) here (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.scribd.com/doc/2601725/The-Minds-I-by-Daniel-C-Dennett).I am a fan of Dan Dennet. :D
Forgive me but I do not understand this dichotomy between false and fiction in this context.
Lets assume we are talking about something being objectively false, then that means it is not objectively true in terms of accurately describing reality. If something is fiction it is divorced from reality.

Are you saying a fictional concept can accurately describe reality? Fictional compared to what?


The self is a locus of sense-making ability. That is to say that the self is a center (within the material world, and among many other centers) of sense-making ability (that is the ability to make sense of experience, to rationalize, to think, etc...).I think I agree here if I am understanding this correctly. A sentient being has the capacity to conceptualize thus that being can conceive of a 'self' or at least a 'self' relative to external reality.

Decolonize The Left
27th February 2009, 22:39
Possibly for the sake of consistency relative to human descriptions of 'themselves' through time and in present time? Or to avoid confusion? I could say ( when speaking of my own history) 'This guy' that called himself 'Dejavu' used to think X but such third person descriptions of one's own role in his own narrative history is redundant and potentially confusing.

I often refer to myself in third person when referring to the past. The reason is simple: I am not who that person was, but I am directly related to that person.

Hence I say things like: "I (or, "my present self") is really pleased with my past self for having made that decision."

It puts things into a nice perspective.


I am a fan of Dan Dennet. :D

Yeah, he's sweet.


Forgive me but I do not understand this dichotomy between false and fiction in this context.
Lets assume we are talking about something being objectively false, then that means it is not objectively true in terms of accurately describing reality. If something is fiction it is divorced from reality.

Are you saying a fictional concept can accurately describe reality? Fictional compared to what?

A fiction is, by definition, an imaginative piece of writing which does not use real facts.

So yes, a fiction is a falsehood. My point was that 'false' is a harsh word, whereas fiction requires the reader to ponder what one means by using that term and pushes critical thinking.

- August

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 22:48
I often refer to myself in third person when referring to the past. The reason is simple: I am not who that person was, but I am directly related to that person.

Hence I say things like: "I (or, "my present self") is really pleased with my past self for having made that decision."

It puts things into a nice perspective.Perhaps to a fellow philosopher they might grasp what you are talking about or your meaning. To your average Joe this might sound nebulous.

What then objectifies your relationship to that person if you essentially , in the present, have nothing to do with that person? You may not be the only one with a memory of your past self , someone else can have a memory of your past self as well. Does anything objectify your perspective of your past self? Why can't someone else claim they were your past self based on memory and experience of your past self?

Also, how do you see personal responsibility for past actions factoring in to this? Can you be held accountable for a past action if you technically are not the same person that committed the action?


A fiction is, by definition, an imaginative piece of writing which does not use real facts.

So yes, a fiction is a falsehood. My point was that 'false' is a harsh word, whereas fiction requires the reader to ponder what one means by using that term and pushes critical thinking.Not just a writing but could be folk lore or a fictional story transmitted through various means. If we concur that fiction is a falsehood then we can warrant the usage of 'false' when describing something fictional can we not?

I find better defined meanings as more conductive and productive to knowledge and rational thinking. Science is descriptive and objectively interprets meanings unlike , say , religion or the state , where the Bible or legislation can be interpreted every which way and have 'multiple meanings.'

Dejavu
27th February 2009, 22:56
Btw, thanks to whoever for the rep point :)

RGacky3
28th February 2009, 02:05
No, it isn't "a matter of debate." All arguments for dualism fall to rational critique.

The "self" is a fiction, a story human beings write about their lives.

Ex: A person approaches you and asks "who are you?" You reply, "my name is X, I'm from Y, I attended school Z, etc..." You tell a story. You are not those past events, you are an autonomous material body.

The fact that your brain has the capacity to reflect upon the conditions of existence do not bring into existence a new entity (a self)...

- August

It still is a matter of debate, there are many philosophers and the such who believe in free-will, a "self" and the such. Without a self there is no free will. The fact that your "self" can only be described based on events and the such does'nt mean it does'nt exist, if you were to think to yourself about who you were, you could think about how you think, how you react to things and the such, hypotheticals, you may not be able to translate those without using metaphors, but that does'nt mean it does'nt exist.

Just being clear, I don't believe in an immortal soul, and I do believe that the 'mind' is tied into the brain, however I do believe there is a metapysical aspect to it.

Also trying to anwer philisophical questions through language analysis assumes that language is a direct interpritation of truth, which would be an EXTREMLY hard to argue.


The only definition of the self which I find philosophically acceptable is: a locus of sense-making ability.

I take it you a determanist, am I right?

Right now I don't have any solid evidence of free will, other than the clear sense of it that everyone has, and the natural way of acting as if it exists. The opposite being true would almost seam as unnatural or mystical as there being a "self".

Of coarse thats not a solid argument, but it does raise a little question.

Dimentio
28th February 2009, 02:45
When I take over my parents summerhouse, I will sell it to itself. ^^

коровьев
28th February 2009, 04:26
Ok i read like 70% of this article and and it makes pretty weird arguments.


This leads us to the rather disappointing conclusion that “self-ownership” means “the body owns the body.” But this is an utterly trivial and useless proposition.
The body itself is a moral agent (a “self”), and therefore it cannot possibly be owned by anything or anyone.So he basically admits the underlying principle behind self-ownership and then proceeds to completely ignore it? It does not matter what shape or form the self represents, the fact that people are moral agents means that no one is allowed to impose on their rights. From that principle people "get" all of their rights.



What the slaveowner owns (illegitimately, may I add) is not the human being himself, but rather the rights of that human being. T
he slaveowner is justified in using force to defend the slave, because he wishes to defend his property. But the slaveowner is also justified in using force against the slave, and the slave (according to the doctrine of slavery) has no rights against him. In short, the slave is treated as any inanimate object, a chair, a desk or a plank of wood, which by definition have no rights.How can a slave-owner own any rights? Where does he get his justification for using violence to have slavery in the first place?





If self-ownership does not exist, and thus cannot be the foundation that helps us determine the rights that exist, how do we define the nature of rights?It does not matter if it exists or not. What matter is that no one else has any claim of ownership on you also.

WhitemageofDOOM
28th February 2009, 07:30
I
Self-ownership runs into the problem of a metaphysical duality which can be thrown away as mysticism IMO. If something is owned , it implies an owner. Yet, how can I own myself if I am myself? It would be rather absurd to say that a house owns itself.

My dislike of self ownership is a bit more practical. If something can be owned it can be bought and sold, self ownership is too easy to argue towards legal slavery. At least in the selling yourself sense, and that will lead to the children of slaves being slaves. Ad nauseum.



What is 'I?' What is legitimately 'I?' Perhaps the sum of experiences of a particular material agent and the physical material characteristics of that individual that makes him/her discreet from other material beings.


I am the stream through which information flows, if i get amnesia i am still me. If you copy of personality and memories into another body or a computer that is not me. If i destroy my brain and replace it with nanomachines one neuron at a time that is still me.

RGacky3
2nd March 2009, 17:48
If something can be owned it can be bought and sold, self ownership is too easy to argue towards legal slavery. At least in the selling yourself sense, and that will lead to the children of slaves being slaves. Ad nauseum.

Thats not a philisophical issue thats a survival issue, people sell themselves to survive, whether or not they consider themselves to be owned.