Iraq II: COALITION DEATHS - a nice site

[Sensitive]

This site keeps track of the number of imperialist dead in the Iraq invasion, and in what period they died. It is a great site... (http://lunaville.org/warcasualties/Summary.aspx)

[suffianr]

There is nothing great about a site that automatically updates human deaths, mate. Yes, it's informative, but spare me the popcorn, please.

[Sensitive]

Quote: from suffianr on 8:22 pm on July 21, 2003
There is nothing great about a site that automatically updates human deaths, mate. Yes, it's informative, but spare me the popcorn, please.The US soldiers were not drafted and they are attempting to colonize Iraq. I do not feel sympathetic for them, besides that they have been lied too. Also the more that die in Iraq, the less popular war will be amongst the American people, which means that our ruling class will be less likely to go to war again soon. The ruling class wouldn't want to risk an uprising at home.

And I would much rather watch the US/British imperial armies get shot up in Iraq, than have to watch them invade Iran, Syria, Cuba, North Korea and Venezuela. The US troops should go AWOL.

Victory to the people of Iraq!

[suffianr]

Ever heard of "chain of command", Comrade?

Most of them don't have a choice, to disobey orders or to go AWOL would spell the worst for them, even if they don't feel like murdering little old women in burkhas...It's a Catch 22, really.

I feel no sympathy for occupational forces in foreign lands either, but to my understanding, most of the poor bastards don't want to be there, anyway...But you're right, more casualties means to less political mileage for Bush. The sooner they pull out, the better for everyone.

[Sensitive]

Quote: from suffianr on 11:13 am on July 24, 2003
Ever heard of "chain of command", Comrade?

Most of them don't have a choice, to disobey orders or to go AWOL would spell the worst for them, even if they don't feel like murdering little old women in burkhas...It's a Catch 22, really.
I figure the occupation would be over a lot quicker if the troops would start to shoot their officers and dissert. It has happened in most other major wars... And as a Marxist that is really the only advise that I can give to the troops of an imperialist occupation army.

[stonerboi]

I love seeing those nazi military dickheads get slaughtered like cattle by the brave Iraqi resistance. I can't wait until the number of UK/US troops dead goes into the thousands like Vietnam.

The US/UK troops WANT to be there by their own CHOICE!

There is no conscription and they voluntereed to go into imperialist wars of racist genocide.

Plus the pathetic excuse of 'I was only following orders' is not valid. Even the UN and International Criminal Court have said that they WILL prosecute people even if they say they were 'under orders'.

Remeber the low ranking Nazis said the 'I was following orders' shit to excuse themselves for their holocaust!

The troops do have a choice, disobey orders or leave the army!

As for being court-marshalled for disobedience, if these troops are human, then a courtmarshall is preferable to killing innocent Iraqis.

[suffianr]

Remeber the low ranking Nazis said the 'I was following orders' shit to excuse themselves for their holocaust!

Oh no, not another reference to the Holocaust!

Are we bound to compare every single act of genocide to the Holocaust, is it the 'definitive' yardstick for inhumanity, just because it to not feel that it was the most horrible act of murder in recent history would render a person insensitive, or worse, a Nazi sympathiser?

Would I be like Mersault in L'Etranger(by Albert Camus) if I didn't cry at my mother's funeral because I didn't feel particularly emotional at that moment? Would you think that I was being insensitive, or worse, uncapable of emotion?

Comrade, what I am trying to say is that you are speaking woefully out of context. You simply cannot equate the genocidal volunteerism of Nazi Germany with the false benevolence of American forces presently in Iraq.

Why are people still comparing present-day stuff with things that happened so many years ago?

That, Comrade, is my question.

Can't you accept the mockery of international laws in Iraq as a condition by itself? Do you need to harp on about scary old Nazis?

They're not Nazis, these boys are Marines. They're frigthened American boys from Wyoming, manning roadblocks, sleeping in foxholes. They believe in democracy. They believe in free markets. And they believe in their government. Isn't that scary enough for you?

[stonerboi]

The US troops do not believe in democracy, not for Iraqis anyway.

I wasn't comparing the specific actions of US troops to Nazis, I was making a reference to people who ask Nazis why they killed innocent people (jews etc...) and all the ex-SS officers and Nazis (who now live in comfortable retierment, the fuckers :angry: :angry: :angry: ) have to say is 'I was only following orders!

The point I am making is not whether the US is a new Nazi state or not, (all capitalist countries are anti-democratic anyway) but that the excuse of 'I was following orders' is NOT valid!!!

[suffianr]

Of course it isn't. But it's a more of a complex issue than simply pointing fingers at people who were in the wrong place at the wrong. It's easy for you to say something like


the excuse of 'I was following orders' is NOT valid!!!

when you're sitting in front of your computer, at home or at a cybercafe, far away from it all. I'm not justifying anything, I'm merely asking what if, given a choice between putting your bayonet into an Iraqi grandmother, and running off into the desert, only to face court-martial, a prison sentence, a dishonourable discharge and subsequent degradation by family and friends, well, what would YOU do?

You would bayonet her, wouldn't you, rather than going home to MaryLou or Becky or Amber or whatever, and having her ostracize you over it because you are now off the football scholarship, homeless and addicted to cough drops.

Not so easy, now, is it?

This is war, and there is no morality here, to put it rather bluntly. Everything goes out the window the minute you rush out of your APC and the bullets start whizzing past your head. Which is why war is indeed a terrible option. It drives people to doing things that do not naturally come to them, things that you wouldn't do if you had a choice, if you didn't have the Ole' Sarge sticking a Colt into the back of your head and asking you to say a few Hail Mary's for the Statue of Liberty.

So, explain how following orders is not valid if your only other option is (hypothetically) death? Let's have an existentialist chat, now, shall we, Comrade?

[stonerboi]

Actually I wouldn't be in the army in the first place, so the chioce for me is neither killing a grandma or court matrial.

Besides it is way better to actually not kill civilian and be isolated back home in the US. With the exception of pyschopathic racist killers (the majority of the US army here) who wants to go home and get a pat on the back by some KKK supporting southern hicks and rednecks who cannot stop banging on about the stars and fucking stripes and how great their shit country is.

Besides by killing innocent civilians the US troops have now justified ANY act ot 'terrorism' both against US troops AND civilians. Thats the way war is fought.

Looking at the savagery of the US, it is a real shame that the Iraqia didn't use their chemical weapons to do the world a favour by killing of some racist, sub-human, Bush supporting rednecks that you will find in such large numbers in the US army.

[suffianr]

Well, I'll gvie you credit for sticking to your guns (pardon the pun), but you are starting to sound very, very detached from the real world.

Those KKK supporting southern hicks and rednecks and racist, sub-human, Bush supporting rednecks are human beings you're talking about. They may not be as politically-inclined or enlightened about the worker's movements as you are, but what you are trying to say is that it's OK to gas people just because they elected the wrong guy. That, for want of a better expression, is a totally fucked up statement, it's zero tolerance for humanity, from the likes of people of your opinion, that generates such bad PR for the Left.

I would advise you to reconsider your views, Comrade, as they sound a tad immature. :ph34r:

[stonerboi]

It's a sad fact but SOME humans are beyond the pale. Look at neo-Nazis in America, (Im talking about timothy macveigh and those who carry out far-right terror attacks here) no matter how much you talk to them or try to convince them of the equality of races or the evils of capitalism, they will ingnore you.

Some people who subscribe to evil ideologies are beyond reform. They are a threat to all workers and ethnic minorities and if they cannot be reformed then they have to be destoyed. I don't believe in the 'liberal parliamentary system' as it is a capitalist fraud. So right-wingers should not be given the right to free expression!

I am all for re-education come the revolution for those who have their minds imprisoned in a capitalist mindset. But there will always be a few who refuse to go along and it's not nice to think it, but they have to be destroyed.

Cuba is a good example here, if Castro said that right-wingers are allowed freedom of expression, it would not be 'democracy' it would just be lots of wealthy Cubans coming in from Miami to plunder the country for Uncle Sam.

[stonerboi]

Believe me, just becuase the bulk of the US army is working class in social composition, there are many within it who are fanatically loyal to the current Republican Bush regime and American capitalism.

Not all working class people will support a revoltuion for the emancipation of the workers. The majority will, but there will be a small minority of workers (the labour aristocracy) who have some (not ALL) benefits of capitalism and will fight tooth and nail for them to keep that status, even if it means betraying their working class brothers and sisters.

True some US troops can be won over, but this is not Czarist Russia, where some Lenin like figure is going to appeal to young conscripts in the trenches to open rebellion. That did happen to some extent to the US army in Vietnam (fragging, disobedience etc..) but that was due to the draft, which thousands of working class (the rich kids got to patrol the US-Mexico border, like Bush cause their daddies didn't want then in Vietnam) kids, mostly black had to fight against their will.

Not only has the USA government put in measures to crush dissent within the army, since the abolition of the draft in 1973, the majority of those who want to join the US army today do so cause they are loyal to US imperialism, capitalism and the far-right republican ideology of US wotld domination. These troops are the CLASS ENEMY and have to be fought.

[suffianr]

Some people who subscribe to evil ideologies are beyond reform.

Despite the damning connotations of the statement above, I'd say that I do agree with you. Very few people are beyond redemption, but at the same time, very few people would actually agree to even contemplating such things...All the same, cancerous elements exist in all forms, right-wing soldiers notwithstanding.

But I'd rather attempt to appeal to those soldiers on a humanitarian level, against their contribution to the destruction in Iraq, rather than write them off as political deadwood to the international peace movements.