the NORTH KOREA thread [Archive]

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 18:33

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_9nTItnS3VNk/R-x75NGKNAI/AAAAAAAARwU/I0hr5PpKFV4/s400/North+Korea+map+flag.jpg

I have always been interested/fascinated by the nation of :star2: North Korea.

Realizing that it is the hardest place in the world to visit or enter ... I have some questions for the posters here to answer, if they so choose ...

1. Have any of you ever been to North Korea?

2. Do any of you know anyone who has lived in North Korea; if so share their story with us?

3. What is your general opinion on North Korea?

4. Do you believe the capitalist media when it comes to North Korea? Should their word be trusted?

5. People often call North Korea a “Stalinist” state, do you find this accurate? If so why?

6. Do you believe that the personality cult around Kim Jong Il is really as pervasive as the West says it is? How would rate him as a leader? What about his father?

7. Would you recommend a particular book that looks at North Korea since the Korean War? One that is not written from a demonizing Western perspective.

8. Do you believe that your average North Korean lives better than your average Haitian/Somalian/Congolese etc? Is it really the “worst place on earth” like the Western Capitalist media states?

9. Do they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons? How Strong do you believe their military actually is? Could they take over South Korea or Japan if they wanted to?

10. Should leftists support North Korea in their struggle against the U.$. and her South Korean & Japanese puppet states?

Answer any/all if you wish, thanks

http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2006/11/30/kimjongil_narrowweb__300x426,0.jpg

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 18:40

They know how to build monuments ...
that's for sure

http://images.asc.ohio-state.edu/is/image/eHistory/origins/images/2-3-img331.jpg

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/JAPOD/NK01003~Mansudae-Grand-Monument-Mansu-Hill-Pyongyang-North-Korea-Posters.jpg

http://static.guim.co.uk/Guardian/news/gallery/2007/sep/03/internationalnews/[email protected]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6WInVtbmNFQ/RjrRGDSTDiI/AAAAAAAAAUc/18Wnk84n62c/s400/NorthKoreaPyongyangMtPaekdu+563.jpg

http://images.asc.ohio-state.edu/is/image/eHistory/origins/images/2-3-cover.jpg

http://www.the-traveller.co.uk/uploads/news/id28/NORTH%20KOREA%20MAIN%20.jpg

http://www.enlight.ru/camera/dprk/dprk_1294.jpg

Niemand

24th February 2009, 18:45

Sasha

24th February 2009, 18:46

yeah, you would think that in the case of widespread famines they would have better thigs to spend huge amounts of money on than bizarre and grotesque monuments, human pixel parades celebrating the glorious leader and nuclear weapons.

i'm not even going to answer your questions....

No gods, no masters, no glorious leaders!!

Wanted Man

24th February 2009, 18:56

Can't help with all the questions...

2. Do any of you know anyone who has lived in North Korea; if so share their story with us?
I want to see the documentary "Crossing the Line" sometime. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_the_Line_(film) It's about an American defector in the DPRK.

4. Do you believe the capitalist media when it comes to North Korea? Should their word be trusted?
No, I generally don't think so. There seems to be the idea that reports in the media are so incredible, they must be true, because nobody would be able to make them up. It's as if Hitler's big lie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_lie) suddenly came true, except the part about evil Jewish conspirators. :rolleyes:

8. Do you believe that your average North Korean lives better than your average Haitian/Somalian/Congolese etc? Is it really the “worst place on earth” like the Western Capitalist media states?
First question: yes, I don't doubt that. But "better" is always subjective. I'm sure you can find people here who have other priorities. Second: no, as logically follows from the first answer.

9. Do they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons? How Strong do you believe their military actually is? Could they take over South Korea or Japan if they wanted to?
I don't support nuclear proliferation in general. But the threat of that kind of retaliation is also a major incitement for their enemies to deal with them on their terms. There would be no need for this nuclear program if they had not been consistently branded as a rogue nation in the "axis of evil", if you consider what happened to other countries that were branded as such.

It's inevitable that more third world countries will resort to these means as long as the US and allies continue to use their vast military superiority, including many more, more powerful WMDs, to maintain their global domination.

I don't think the DPRK could "take over" anything, especially not Japan, but that's not their intention. On the other hand, they certainly pose enough military strength to prevent any opposite attempts at a "takeover".

10. Should leftists support North Korea in their struggle against the U.$. and her South Korean & Japanese puppet states?
In short, yes. If push comes to shove, it would at least obviously be wrong to support the other side, no matter if it's by open support or by the politics of fence-sitting that always help the oppressor in practice.

Pirate Utopian

24th February 2009, 19:01

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6WInVtbmNFQ/RjrRGDSTDiI/AAAAAAAAAUc/18Wnk84n62c/s400/NorthKoreaPyongyangMtPaekdu+563.jpg
Wankers of the world unite! :lol:

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 19:03

North Korea is repulsive.
Are Capitalist nations not also "repulsive"?

Are the Capitalist slums in Calcutta, India worse than the living conditions in North Korea? Is a private person building a 1 billion $ dollar home over the slums of Mumbai more repulsive than big monuments? or just the same? Which nations in your view currently aren't "repulsive"?

people are starving to death on the street.
Well good thing that doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (eye roll).

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YVK9luYdliA/SSoX1rceCcI/AAAAAAAAEMw/FJ_9V-LRhN8/s400/vulture+and+child.bmp

i'm not even going to answer your questions
Well thanks for the input then ;)

Niemand

24th February 2009, 19:11

Are Capitalist nations not also "repulsive"?
Isn't the point of the revolution to change things? I guess after the revolution we'll all just be happy as we starve to death under the guise of our new "socialist" leaders, eh? :rolleyes:

Are the Capitalist slums in Calcutta, India worse than the living conditions in North Korea? Is a private person building a 1 billion $ dollar home over the slums of Mumbai more repulsive than big monuments? or just the same? Which nations in your view currently aren't "repulsive"?
Yeah, they kinda are. You know, since the fucking government isn't denying their people food. Their "great leader" isn't squandering the nation's resources on useless parades praising his glory and building statues of his daddy.

Oh and, I don't know, the Indian government doesn't call itself communist!

What nations aren't repulsive? Maybe the ones that don't starve their fucking people?! You need to get a fucking reality check and realise that their suffering is real and your bullshit theories aren't. It's all good and dandy to say you're a run of the mill "Marxist-Leninist" and "anti-revisionist" and all that dumb shit, but you're willingly turning aside while working people starve to death? Do you have any idea how painful starvation is? I'd far rather live in a capitalist country than that hypocritical and reactionary shit hole. I guess I just don't like that whole starvation thing.

Well good thing that doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (eye roll).
I fail to see how your "socialism" is any different from capitalism, other than the fact that the government controls absolutely every aspect of life.

24th February 2009, 19:13

Well good thing that doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (eye roll).
Aren't we being a smartass? The point Niemand was making was that building huge monuments while people are starving is clearly setting the wrong priorities. Or were you to actually defend that that is a genuine socialist policy?

Wanted Man

24th February 2009, 19:15

Are Capitalist nations not also "repulsive"?

Are the Capitalist slums in Calcutta, India worse than the living conditions in North Korea? Is a private person building a 1 billion $ dollar home over the slums of Mumbai more repulsive than big monuments? or just the same? Which nations in your view currently aren't "repulsive"?

Well good thing that doesn't happen anywhere else in the world (eye roll).
Well, to be fair, a major part of socialism is to abolish such things. But a lot of people don't realise that the DPRK can't possibly do all those on its own, simply because of the world we've lived in for the last 20 years. Cuba probably does "better", but are also in other circumstances, that are already hard enough, but still not as bad as those of the DPRK.

Unfortunately, NK doesn't have a big machine where you can throw money in one end, and food will come out on the other and will automatically spread itself across the country. It's never that easy. There is a limit to what you can do with the land you have, especially when it's as mountainous as NK. It has been using every possible square of land, having people growing food on their own rooftops and having soldiers help out with crops. If Kim had the ability to conjure up lots of varied food for everyone and he didn't, then it'd be another story.

It's much more despicable that other countries use food as a weapon to take someone else hostage: if you don't conform, then it's sanctions and cancelling of aid. Especially when the country's just been hit by severe storms and already in major trouble... For all of NK's faults, it's pathetic that many people on the left squarely lay the blame at NK itself. Scoffing and finger-pointing is always easier than opposing one's own bourgeoisie.

Prairie Fire

24th February 2009, 19:18

"Leninist-primitivist"? I guess that isn't the most anachronisitc lable I have ever heard on revleft, but it is a close second; one of those ideological trends is going to have to give comrade, because Leninism shares nothing with primitivism.

Anyways, as per your question:

1. No, but I know some who have (some who have been many times). I'd like to go, but it is not high on my priorities right now.

2. Lived there? Well I have met North Koreans... Not much to report about them. They are kind of distant and they smoke a lot.

3. A state with a more-or-less socialistic economy, but a revisionist party that needs rectification. I support them against all imperialist aggression and aspirations on the part of external imperialists, as does my organization.

4. For the most part, no. When North Korea was cooperating on the 6 party disarmement talks, they got some decent western press, Kim Jong Il was portrayed as a legitimate statesman for a while, and they even got to be called the "DPRK" for a while (instead of "North Korea", or "hermit kingdom", or any of that nonsense).

As soon as they stop playing into imperialist aspirations for the penninsula, they get "the stick", which includes a media blitz, ranging from Kim jong il as an insane character on MAD TV, to sensationalist CNN documentaries featuring loch-ness monster style grainy handicam footage of "executions and" whatnot.

In general, the bourgeois mouth pieces are bourgeois mouth pieces; regard them as such.

5. No, it is innacurate. By so called "Stalinist" (Marxist-Leninist) terms, the DPRK is a revisionist state, as they abandoned Marxism-Leninism for their own theories of Juche and Songun. These theories are rife with metaphysics, moralism, gender chauvenism, social conservatism and dogmatic worship of leader Kim Il sung (as well as Kim Jong il).

6. Kim jong Il is not made of the same stuff as his father. His father, Kim Il sung, was a genuine Marxist-Leninist for some time, and built an economy in the DPRK that was stronger than that of South Korea for a period of time. Both Kims share the ideological errors that I mentioned above, and they have a revisionist party in need of rectification.

Their revolution can be saved, but I doubt that the Kims will be the ones to do it.

7. For that, you would have to go to the DPRK press:

US imperialists started the Korean War
http://www.north-korea-books.com/servlet/the-299/THE-U.S.-IMPERIALISTS-STARTED/Detail

THE KOREAN WAR AN UNANSWERED QUESTION
http://www.north-korea-books.com/servlet/the-296/THE-KOREAN-WAR-/Detail

DISTORTION OF U.S. PROVOCATION OF THE KOREAN WAR
http://www.north-korea-books.com/servlet/the-283/DISTORTION-OF-U.S.-PROVOCATION/Detail

8. Without question. The Haitian famine and food crisis is relatively unknown, but the DPRK's is publicized to the point of falsification and exageration.

Congo, Somalia... these countries do not have a very large manufacturing base, as far as I know. Haiti does, but their factories are used as sweatshops for foriegn capitalists, like Gildan active wear, and such. North Korea, on the other hand, has industries to support their domestic needs, and some export.

The capitalists make a point that North Korea has little electricity, but the fact of the matter is that most of Africa and other parts of the world have NO electricty, often only gas-powered generators.

North Korea is an industrialized jewel compared to the lives of millions upon millions in the capitalist world, but you will never see that on CNN.

9. In an ideal world, there would be no nuclear arms. In this world, there are nuclear arms, and all of the most aggressive imperialist states possess them.

I think that the DPRK has the right to self determination, up to and including nuclear arms. Only the most naive people raise a fuss about the DPRK possesing these weapons, and they have no problem with the fact that the US has similar weapons, and the majority of the worlds supply.

When the only country in the world that has ever used nuclear arms against another country in a combat scenario (USA) tells a small state to disarm immediately, it is a case of the "pot and the kettle". When the USA gets rid of all of their nuclear, chemical and biological weapons, I will support disarmament for the the DPRK.

In the meantime, the DPRK has a right to self determination, and to defend their soveriegnty, as do all countries.

10. I think that we should critically support most national democratic forces that do battle with US imperialism and it's lackeys.

More importantly though, since the DPRK is undoubtedly not going to be the country to lead the revolution (no current state is stepping up to assume that mantle,), the best that we can do is defend their right to self determination and support a revitalization of the revolution in this country (http://www.marx2mao.com/Other/WCRC68.html)

On another note, you spell US as "U$". You are not an MIMite/third worldist are you? in which case, keep it on the D-L, because MIMites and third-worldists are not tolerated here.

Communist Theory

24th February 2009, 19:21

North Korea is repulsive. Sure, they can build monuments, but people are starving to death on the street. I saw a video from a North Korean refugee where a lady literally collapsed on the street and died of starvation while everyone else paid no attention. It's nothing more than Kim Jong-Il's personal fiefdom and we all, as socialists and humanists, should be strongly opposed to this disgusting monarchy.
Starvation happens all over the world, also don't you think that the video you watched was filmed by a western journalist, meant to demonize North Korea? I mean look at North Korea they seem to me like a very progressive nation.

24th February 2009, 19:25

Starvation happens all over the world, also don't you think that the video you watched was filmed by a western journalist, meant to demonize North Korea? I mean look at North Korea they seem to me like a very progressive nation.

On what are you basing that statement?

Don't get me wrong btw, I do think the planned and socialised economy is a progressive step over capitalism. N-Korea should be defended from imperialist attacks to safe that, however it should also be attacked, by the working class, to topple the bureaucratic clique that stiffles N-Korean society.

Wanted Man

24th February 2009, 19:46

Well, it's true that there are a lot of crap videos. NK had a famine in the mid-1990s. And videos taken during those days often have descriptions like: "This is daily life in North Korea right now", with some emotional music over it. Which is bullshit. After the famine, the food situation has been dangerous for some time. But there has been no mass starvation since 1997 or so, as far as I know.

Anyway, some good stuff:

North Korea agriculture (http://www.country-studies.com/north-korea/agriculture.html), from Country Studies.
Inside North Korea (http://www.counterpunch.org/elich09172008.html), from Counterpunch.
The Other North Korea (http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2003/12/21/the_other_north_korea/), from Boston Globe.
An antidote to disinformation (http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=1663), from Global Research.

Hmm, I wonder how many people are going to read these. Most will probably go back to barmy videos on Youtube with 1990s footage: "This is happening in North Korea right now!!!"

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 19:52

Not sure how fair this is ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_korea

Communist Theory

24th February 2009, 19:54

On what are you basing that statement?

Don't get me wrong btw, I do think the planned and socialised economy is a progressive step over capitalism. N-Korea should be defended from imperialist attacks to safe that, however it should also be attacked, by the working class, to topple the bureaucratic clique that stiffles N-Korean society.
Well look at those beautiful monuments they have. All we have in America is the St. Louis Arch thingy. btw screw D.C. those monuments don't count! Also the thing that we call "Lady Liberty" if she could, she would have left awhile ago. (Of course this isn't the real reason I think N-Korea is progressive I just wanted to rant on about America.)

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 19:59

The North Korea (DPRK) you won't see on Fox News ...

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/pyongyang_dusk.jpg

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/pyongyang_postcard.jpg

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/pyongyang_night.jpg

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/pyongyang_rooftop.jpg

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/mausoleum_square.jpg

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/riverside_dancing.jpg

http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/photos/soldiers_reflection.jpg

Full Photo Set
http://www.levingston.co.uk/dprk/

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 20:05

I guess North Korea has their own Arch de Triumph ... (not sure if it is to scale)

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/RHPOD/29-4288~Arch-of-Triumph-3M-Higher-Than-Arc-De-Triomphe-in-Paris-Pyongyang-North-Korea-Asia-Posters.jpg

Bright Banana Beard

24th February 2009, 20:15

I thought they were pursuing nuclear reaction but weapons? This is clearly to show that USA do not want North Korea to be more progressive before they had a chance to control it.

Rangi

24th February 2009, 20:15

The simple fact that it is very hard to visit or learn about North Korea points to the obvious fact that there are human rights problems within that country.

Here are some of my own questions...

Do the people have the right to protest?

Do the people have adequate access to resources?

How does a North Korean process go about registering disatisfaction with the status quo?

Communist Theory

24th February 2009, 20:15

scarletghoul

24th February 2009, 20:15

TheCagedLion

24th February 2009, 21:45

Sure, they can build some cool monuments, but they need to work on their architecture.

Also, this is a good thread full of good replies. Sorry I can't add anything useful to this discussion, but thanks, your posts and links are valuble to me

That's the Ryugyong Hotel, it was started in the late 80's but didn't get finished (I'm guessing 'cause of the famines), but has apparently begun construction again...

Killfacer

24th February 2009, 21:55

Killfacer

24th February 2009, 21:59

Yeah look at all those poor, poor oppressed people I mean look their clothes are threadbare and they look soooooo hungry. This is exactly what I mean by progressive they have a very disicplined and organized military, vibrant culture, and amazing sculptures and monuments.

Are you really that thick? You see some pictures of some people dancing and you take that as evidence that it's okay in North Korea?

If you consider "vibrant" to be going on huge parades carrying giant pictures of demogogues in nuremberg rally like marches then i guess it is "vibrant".

Most of the sculptures i have seen are devoid of any creativity.

Pogue

24th February 2009, 22:01

You are joking right? Some hack photos of wastefully expensive buildings and happy smiley people holding hands doesn't paper over the clearly visable cracks.

If you look at the picture of those colorful apartments, only one side - the outside of the apartments - is painted. In the documentary someone posted on here about DPRK recently, the reporter goes into the apartments and on the inside they are dirty old and falling apart.

The country is in an awful state. The government/state has nothing to offer the working class, and if you're up for defending it I think you're pretty wacko. Workers rights over there are non existant. That is reason alone to say fuck that authoritarian state.

John Lenin

24th February 2009, 22:16

They sure do have a lot of energy for supposedly never being fed ...

N9ZrP40wdlg

... These overly active kids need some McDonalds and Xbox (sarcasm)

communard resolution

24th February 2009, 22:40

The best and most entertaining article I've read on North Korea written by an outsider who got to visit the place is a chapter in this book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Trashfilm-Roadshows-Beaten-Subversive-Headpress/dp/1900486199/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1235513763&sr=1-6

The author is a German underground/trash film fanatic who toured Europe and the US screening the vilest, trashiest, most ridiculous, most exploitative and most obscure pieces of celluloid he could find. Through some very lucky friend-of-a-friend-of-a-friend type connection he (as a "representative of Western cinema culture") received an invitation to visit a 'film festival' in North Korea where he was to be shown the latest state propaganda fare. He depicts his brief stay in North Korea so vividly, you'll often find it hard to decide whether to laugh or to cry - because that country is somewhat of a tragicomedy, even more so than some other post-Stalinist crapholes.

As a disclaimer I should add that this writer

a) is not some evil mouthpiece of the bourgeoisie paid by Western media moguls to spread propaganda and lies. He's a person like me and you who got 'lucky' enough to visit that place, and his book is very much an uncensored account of his various tours and trips, and

b) freely admits he did not get to see a lot of North Korea. That's because he was only allowed to travel along designated routes with a 'tour guide' permanently by his side, i.e. even when popping out for cigarettes.

Even so, he was only allowed to take photographs of certain buildings (= the most impressive ones), which kind of explains why everything we ever get to see of the country looks like the propaganda images that John Lenin posted earlier on.

I wholeheartedly recommend this book not only for the very entertaining glimpse at North Korea but also for the other stories it contains. And before you ask - no, I don't know the author personally neither am I his PR person, although I do know one or two people who have dealt with him personally.

Sorry I'm posting an amazon link, it's the best I could find right now - if you don't wish to shop there, google it yourself.

Killfacer

24th February 2009, 22:45

They sure do have a lot of energy for supposedly never being fed ...

N9ZrP40wdlg

... These overly active kids need some McDonalds and Xbox (sarcasm)

So now some weird mass exercise (or Strength through joy as somebody once called it) qualifies as evidence that North Korea is fine and dandy?

Get a grip.

communard resolution

24th February 2009, 22:53

Sure, they can build some cool monuments, but they need to work on their architecture.
http://rickoshea.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/ryugyong-hotel-lg.jpg

Also, this is a good thread full of good replies. Sorry I can't add anything useful to this discussion, but thanks, your posts and links are valuble to me

Although I'm not a DPRK fan, I must admit I'm impressed by this deformed dog penis - it's so ugly it's great. I would quite fancy living in this building, preferably on the top floor, or maybe in the apartment on top of the right testicle.

SocialismOrBarbarism

24th February 2009, 22:57

4. Do you believe the capitalist media when it comes to North Korea? Should their word be trusted?
No. You shouldn't trust the capitalist media when it comes to any country, but especially not North Korea. It isn't as bad as they make it out to be.

6. Do you believe that the personality cult around Kim Jong Il is really as pervasive as the West says it is? How would rate him as a leader? What about his father? The personality cult is horrible, and he is a horrible leader. His father too.
http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/Kim Jong Il - 5/ON FIRMLY ESTABLISHING A REVOLUTIONARY OUTLOOK ON THE LEADER AMONG THE OFFICIALS.pdf (http://www.korea-dpr.com/lib/Kim%20Jong%20Il%20-%205/ON%20FIRMLY%20ESTABLISHING%20A%20REVOLUTIONARY%20O UTLOOK%20ON%20THE%20LEADER%20AMONG%20THE%20OFFICIA LS.pdf)

7. Would you recommend a particular book that looks at North Korea since the Korean War? One that is not written from a demonizing Western perspective. From what I've seen, Bruce Cuming's writings are pretty unbiased.

8. Do you believe that your average North Korean lives better than your average Haitian/Somalian/Congolese etc? Is it really the “worst place on earth” like the Western Capitalist media states?People in North Korea live better than people in most countries. It's far from the worst place on Earth.

9. Do they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons? How Strong do you believe their military actually is? Could they take over South Korea or Japan if they wanted to?
See below.

10. Should leftists support North Korea in their struggle against the U.$. and her South Korean & Japanese puppet states?We should support them against imperialism, but other than that, their government deserves no support.

yeah, you would think that in the case of widespread famines they would have better thigs to spend huge amounts of money on than bizarre and grotesque monuments, human pixel parades celebrating the glorious leader and nuclear weapons.

i'm not even going to answer your questions....

No gods, no masters, no glorious leaders!!

The monuments were built at a time when NK had a very high standard of living. Nuclear deterrent will allow them to cut spending for their military, which they spend a quarter of their GDP on, meaning more resources for food production. They aren't having widespread famines anyway, and they're only a few years from returning to self sufficiency in food production.

For all of NK's faults, it's pathetic that many people on the left squarely lay the blame at NK itself. Scoffing and finger-pointing is always easier than opposing one's own bourgeoisie.

:thumbup1:

Os Cangaceiros

24th February 2009, 23:22

Yeah look at all those poor, poor oppressed people I mean look their clothes are threadbare and they look soooooo hungry. This is exactly what I mean by progressive they have a very disicplined and organized military, vibrant culture, and amazing sculptures and monuments.

By those standards the United States is incredibly progressive. I mean, in the U.S. we have a highly advanced military, a varied culture patched together in one of the most diverse countries in the world, and innumerable examples of architectural prowess and huge monuments.

I guess that means that everything is peaches and cream here...:rolleyes:

Crux

24th February 2009, 23:35

3. Negative, it's a nation dependent on one of the largest capitalist states in the world the "people's republic" of China. That alone tells you something rather important.

4. Of course not, but the official sources available in North Korea are even more questionable. The Western media will of course try to pin the failing of DPRK on the lack of market liberalism which is of course bollocks. Here it is also worth remembering north kora had several market reforms during the ninties. I do not know just how established the private sector is, but I know that it very much is.

5. No, this is not correct, the north korean state abandonden stalinism in favour of korean nationalism and good old asian despotism sometime in th 1970's with renounciantion of marxism-leninism in favour of Juche. In the 90's this went even further renouncing the workingclass as the revolutionary subject in favour of the army, the so called Songun policy.

6. I have all reason to believe this, just as this sentiment is very much echoed by the official media themself.

7. I'll have to wait until we establish an underground organisation there, comrade. ;)

8. I couldn't say. But "not being the worst place on earth" is hardly my criteria for "good".

9. No, I do not.

10. I am doubtfull.

JimmyJazz

24th February 2009, 23:38

http://classicist.blogs.com/weblog/images/Lincoln_Memorial.jpg

http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/hurricane-katrina-victims-04.jpg

http://www.danhagerman.com/images/Bronx%20Ghetto.jpg

Pogue

24th February 2009, 23:39

http://classicist.blogs.com/weblog/images/Lincoln_Memorial.jpg

http://lefteyeonthemedia.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/hurricane-katrina-victims-04.jpg

Yes, both the US and DPRK are capitalist shitholes.

Os Cangaceiros

24th February 2009, 23:58

Well, I'm bored, so I guess I'll give this a shot:

1. Have any of you ever been to North Korea?

No, I have not. And that's important to note: my opinions are subjective and based on what I know of N. Korea from varying sources, just like the others on this thread.

2. Do any of you know anyone who has lived in North Korea; if so share their story with us?

I don't know any North Koreans.

3. What is your general opinion on North Korea?

An inefficient, corrupt and militaristic state that isn't and never was socialist. In fact, the very fact that there are actually leftists who buy into the notion of N. Korea as a "socialist state" just confirms my view that just about anyone can wrap themselves in the red flag and gain allies.

4. Do you believe the capitalist media when it comes to North Korea? Should their word be trusted?

Like most things, I feel that the truth lies somewhere between what the media reports and what the DPRK propaganda machine reports.

5. People often call North Korea a “Stalinist” state, do you find this accurate? If so why?

I don't really like "Stalinist" as a label, but if by "Stalinist" you mean an faux-socialist authoritarian state with a "cult of personality" power figure at the top, then yes.

6. Do you believe that the personality cult around Kim Jong Il is really as pervasive as the West says it is? How would rate him as a leader? What about his father?

I think that there is enough evidence out there that we can be fairly sure that there is a significant issue in N. Korea with the "cult of personality". I have more respect for worms than I do for Kim Jong Il.

7. Would you recommend a particular book that looks at North Korea since the Korean War? One that is not written from a demonizing Western perspective.

No, but it looks like others have already recommended some good ones.

8. Do you believe that your average North Korean lives better than your average Haitian/Somalian/Congolese etc? Is it really the “worst place on earth” like the Western Capitalist media states?

"Better" is highly subjective. They may very well live better than someone in Somalia, but ultimately that means very little, and doesn't mean that the life of the average N. Korean is good as a whole. I'm pretty disgusted with the moral relativism that seems to pervade certain segments of the Left.

9. Do they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons? How Strong do you believe their military actually is? Could they take over South Korea or Japan if they wanted to?

I think that nuclear proliferation can lead to nothing but trouble. However, I understand why they would want nuclear weapons, from a geopolitical/strategic standpoint.

10. Should leftists support North Korea in their struggle against the U.$. and her South Korean & Japanese puppet states?

I don't support any state.

Qayin

25th February 2009, 00:28

If you look at the government structure one could conclude its fascist.

The workers dont have rights and many NK people who escape to china have to go through hell

scarletghoul

25th February 2009, 00:48

Yes, Juche seems more similar to fascism than socialism. But really it's in a category of its own, I think.

Robespierre2.0

25th February 2009, 01:36

I have my own criticisms of the DPRK, but for the most part, I think it is a force for good in the world. The economy is still, for the most part, run along socialist lines, and it appears the people have a great standard of living considering the amount of pressure they're under, and the fact that all the good farmland was south of the 38th parallell.

If I heard you call the DPRK fascist in real life, I'd probably slap you for being so ignorant.

I'm sure North Koreans would love nothing more than to hear petit-bourgeois anarkiddies from the first world talk to them about how evil and oppressive their government is.

SocialRealist

25th February 2009, 02:48

1. Have any of you ever been to North Korea?
No I have not been to North Korea but I think I can make a very good and justifiable opinion on this state. It does not take one to go to a certain country to make a good perspective, what it takes is for one to analyze the information and make a clear position on their government.

2. Do any of you know anyone who has lived in North Korea; if so share their story with us?
Im sorry, I dont know anyone from North Korea but I have read many refugee stories about what the North Korean people face. This has to deal with things such as politcal executions, gulags and the typical police state actions.

3. What is your general opinion on North Korea?
My general opinion on North Korea is an extremely negative one in every point of view. What I see when I think of North Korea, is an opressive Stalinistic state focused on controlling and manipulating their people to every extent they can.

4. Do you believe the capitalist media when it comes to North Korea? Should their word be trusted?
In certain areas I will filter out the lies and claims to find a more truthful view of North Korea. If the word can be backed up yes it should be trusted, this basically means is there a good ammount of proof to this?

5. People often call North Korea a “Stalinist” state, do you find this accurate? If so why?
I find it extremely accurate. We call it this due to the fact it is a Stalinistic state, for example the mass ammounts of gulags, human rights abuse and the general Stalin type of rule.

6. Do you believe that the personality cult around Kim Jong Il is really as pervasive as the West says it is? How would rate him as a leader? What about his father?
Yes I do believe it is as bad as the west says it is due to the fact that there is proof to back this claim up and it goes beyond just Western sources. I would rate Kim Jong Il as a 1 in the scale of 1-10 with 1 being the lowest. I would rate his father Kim Il Sung as a 3 in the same scale, I would only put him as a 3 due to the fact he was the man behind the Stalinist curtain and was able to control Korea in a much better fashion than Kim Jong Il could ever do.

7. Would you recommend a particular book that looks at North Korea since the Korean War? One that is not written from a demonizing Western perspective.
I would recommend North of the DMZ: Essays on the Daily Life in North Korea by Andrei Lankov. It is a very good book on North Korea.

8. Do you believe that your average North Korean lives better than your average Haitian/Somalian/Congolese etc? Is it really the “worst place on earth” like the Western Capitalist media states?
I believe that the average North Korean lives worse than the average Haitan, Somalian and Congolese. It is likely to be one of the worst places on Earth and it is not the worse place on the Earth it is likely to be a state that has been modeled out of Orwells own words.

9. Do they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons? How Strong do you believe their military actually is? Could they take over South Korea or Japan if they wanted to?
North Korea does not a have a justifiable claim to develop or possess nuclear weapons. The military in my opinion is rather the strongest part of North Korea. Kim Jong Il has focused all of his countries recources to the military whilst leaving the common man and woman in the dust.

10. Should leftists support North Korea in their struggle against the US and her South Korean & Japanese puppet states?
It would depend on what style of politics they take. Should we be changing society from being about money over people to strict authoritarianism? In my own mind that change in the end will be no better than the one we had before us, it will likely be worse.

Communist Theory

25th February 2009, 02:55

So now some weird mass exercise (or Strength through joy as somebody once called it) qualifies as evidence that North Korea is fine and dandy?

Get a grip.
Ok North Korea is authoritarian but every one seems pretty happy. Just let them be happy.

Qayin

25th February 2009, 03:04

If I heard you call the DPRK fascist in real life, I'd probably slap you for being so ignorant.

I'm sure North Koreans would love nothing more than to hear petit-bourgeois anarkiddies from the first world talk to them about how evil and oppressive their government is.

You've got to be kidding me.:laugh:

Communist Theory

25th February 2009, 03:06

You've got to be kidding me.:laugh:
Ahhhh, Just let them be HAPPY!!!:cursing:

Robespierre2.0

25th February 2009, 03:11

You've got to be kidding me.:laugh:

Yeah I was kidding. North Koreans would probably be extremely offended at so-called 'leftists' pissing all over the achievements of their motherland, and you'd probably come across as no better than any right-wing American in their eyes.

Qayin

25th February 2009, 03:22

Yeah I was kidding. North Koreans would probably be extremely offended at so-called 'leftists' pissing all over the achievements of their motherland, and you'd probably come across as no better than any right-wing American in their eyes.

:laugh:
your cracking me up man keep it up

motherland? Since when do we care about nationalism?

scarletghoul

25th February 2009, 03:23

Fascism includes socialistic elements, just as juche does. For example the Nazis (nationalist socialists) had a welfare system that increased the standard of living for many germans. but to say the the nazis were socialist is silly, because it was about class colaboration rather than emancipation and stuff. The same is true in North Korea, though its not the same there are still social classes, and the workers are ruled by a great leader. The emphasis is more on class colaboration than elimination of classes. Part of this is down to the confucianist aspect of juche.

Anyway, I do still have a soft spot for the DPRK lol, and appreciate a lot of it, but yeah.

Niemand

25th February 2009, 05:54

Yeah I was kidding. North Koreans would probably be extremely offended at so-called 'leftists' pissing all over the achievements of their motherland, and you'd probably come across as no better than any right-wing American in their eyes.
North Koreans would also think America is in even worse shape than their own third world hell. :rolleyes:

Communist Theory, are you serious about letting them be happy? I would love to see you live in North Korea for a few years and decide to stay there.

Orange Juche

25th February 2009, 07:17

Wanted Man

25th February 2009, 07:58

No I have not been to North Korea but I think I can make a very good and justifiable opinion on this state. It does not take one to go to a certain country to make a good perspective, what it takes is for one to analyze the information and make a clear position on their government.

I would doubt that, considering that all the information we get on the DPRK is second-hand. We can all make educated guesses at best, but certainly can't claim to be well-informed.

Killfacer

25th February 2009, 09:53

Ok North Korea is authoritarian but every one seems pretty happy. Just let them be happy.

:rolleyes: How do you know that everyone is happy? You haven't even been there, it's such an isolationist country it's virtually impossible to know if they are happy.

Cumannach

25th February 2009, 10:22

Crux

25th February 2009, 11:56

I'm still waiting for the golden and bronze Obama statues.
As for DPRK being "leninist" or evn "stalinist" I think this is incorrect for reasons I have already mentioned. Marxisms is outlawed in DPRK just as any other oppositional ideology is. I know they technically have a multiparty system (there's a peasant party, a socdem party and a religious cult) strangely they all seem to vote with the Beloved leader.
I think support of DPRK is more petit-borguise than anything, and usually assosciated with a fetischizing of a certain aesthetic rather than any ideological insight.

John Lenin

25th February 2009, 13:24

Some hack photos
You're right ... I should have searched for a hack documentary on google instead. Or maybe I could've typed in "North Korea + eats children" into google.

wastefully expensive buildings
you're right ... who needs structurally sound buildings ...

http://www.fig.net/news/news_2007/nairobi_april_2007/kibera_6_600.jpg

Most of the sculptures i have seen are devoid of any creativity.
I guess they should have made the hammer and sickle statue into a Picasso themed ovarie shaped uterus, morphing into a placenta.

I'm sure North Koreans would love nothing more than to hear petit-bourgeois anarkiddies from the first world talk to them about how evil and oppressive their government is.
+ 1

Just because capitalism is shitty, and poor and starving nations under that nation are unacceptable, doesn't make any other alternative whatsoever better.
It does if you are the one eating in North Korea versus the one dying of starvation in Kenya.

all the information we get on the DPRK is second-hand.
Exactly, which is why I am searching out more accounts.

it's such an isolationist country it's virtually impossible to know if they are happy.
... or unhappy for that matter

who the hell cares about a personality cult! There are actually more important things than an irritating hero worship. You'd think socialism was the struggle against harmless personality cults!
The best is when some anti-personality-cult-Socialists are also Christians ... and favor their own personality cult of a fatherless carpenter zombie who watches you masturbate.

Killfacer

25th February 2009, 13:47

You're right ... I should have searched for a hack documentary on google instead. Or maybe I could've typed in "North Korea + eats children" into google.

you're right ... who needs structurally sound buildings ...

http://www.fig.net/news/news_2007/nairobi_april_2007/kibera_6_600.jpg

I guess they should have made the hammer and sickle statue into a Picasso themed ovarie shaped uterus, morphing into a placenta.

+ 1

It does if you are the one eating in North Korea versus the one dying of starvation in Kenya.

Exactly, which is why I am searching out more accounts.

... or unhappy for that matter

The best is when some anti-personality-cult-Socialists are also Christians ... and favor their own personality cult of a fatherless carpenter zombie who watches you masturbate.

You really are a fuckwitt. You actually take propaganda photos at face value? I wasn't aware people were that stupid.

Structurally sound buildings = yes, blowing millions of pounds to pretend to the rest of the world your country is fine whilst people starve or live in poverty = no.

You actually like these vile sub eastern block monoliths?

John Lenin

25th February 2009, 13:59

You actually take propaganda photos at face value?All photographs are propaganda ... welcome to the real world

people starve
Have you ever met a starving North Korean? or seen one in person? I would wager that you exposure consists of either a documentary or a "propaganda photo"

You actually like these vile sub eastern block monoliths?
If you're referring to their buildings, I think they're fine stylistically and preferable to the dirt floored carborated shacks that much of the 4th world lives in.

Communist Theory

25th February 2009, 14:23

:rolleyes: How do you know that everyone is happy? You haven't even been there, it's such an isolationist country it's virtually impossible to know if they are happy.
Look at how they express themselves in dance! They are obviously happy, I mean its practically High School Musical over there...(Sarcasm) But they don't mind dancing and holding parades for Kim Jong Il.

Killfacer

25th February 2009, 14:57

Look at how they express themselves in dance! They are obviously happy, I mean its practically High School Musical over there...(Sarcasm) But they don't mind dancing and holding parades for Kim Jong Il.

SO now the fact the walk around in giant circles holding giant banners mean that they're happy. Christ.

Communist Theory

25th February 2009, 15:02

SO now the fact the walk around in giant circles holding giant banners mean that they're happy. Christ.
Easy, it was sarcasm. If you want to cross the border into N-Korea be my guest go liberate those people.

Killfacer

25th February 2009, 15:20

All photographs are propaganda ... welcome to the real world

Have you ever met a starving North Korean? or seen one in person? I would wager that you exposure consists of either a documentary or a "propaganda photo"

If you're referring to their buildings, I think they're fine stylistically and preferable to the dirt floored carborated shacks that much of the 4th world lives in.

All photographs are propaganda? Fool. thats just planely not true.

Whats your exposure to north korea? Are you genuinly denying that they could have spent there money better?!

The buildings aren't great but i was referring to the monuments.

John Lenin

25th February 2009, 16:08

All photographs are propaganda?
Yes ... so is all art.

propaganda is not inherently bad nor good. It is everything.

Sometimes in fact it is absolutely essential.

Are you genuinly denying that they could have spent there money better?!
It depends. I see nothing wrong with building the monuments to their fallen soldiers, ideology, wars etc. Where I differ would be their choice of person for the large human statue (it should have been Marx if anyone).

Moreover, I appreciate the symbolic value of monuments, and the necessity for a state to have places to hold official and important events. I also believe that a people can take pride in constructing monuments, and that semiotically they can be very helpful to inspiring and raising the collective consciousness of a people. They are basically nationally produced art.

Crux

25th February 2009, 17:01

As, I said, most western supporters of NK seems to be more interested in the aesthitics, rather than actually posseising any political insight or udnerstanding of north korea. "John Lenin" here is case in point.

John Lenin

25th February 2009, 17:05

most western supporters of NK seems to be more interested in the aesthitics, rather than actually posseising any political insight or udnerstanding of north korea.

I AM interested in possessing "political insight", the problem is most people can't provide any ... other than what they heard, read, or watched in a google film.

I'd love to travel to North Korea and really study their system and the way it works. However, I doubt my Visa would be approved.

All we are left with right now is the Aesthetics ... and a hypothesis on the rest.

Orange Juche

25th February 2009, 20:34

:rolleyes: How do you know that everyone is happy? You haven't even been there, it's such an isolationist country it's virtually impossible to know if they are happy.

Swallows came down from the heavens with a message from Great Leader Kim-Il Sung, informing him of the glorious happiness the people of the DPRK are experiencing.

Orange Juche

25th February 2009, 20:45

It does if you are the one eating in North Korea versus the one dying of starvation in Kenya.

So what if you are the one eating in Kenya versus the one starving in North Korea?

You're arguments are so full of holes and side-stepping that I don't even know if this is worth typing, but I might as well try. People eat in NK, and starve in Kenya. The other way around is also true. Your statement is irrlevant, and tries to make the grand implication that everyone in DPRK has full bellies while everyone in Kenya is starving.

Its been documented, the horrible conditions people live under in North Korea (yes yes, Kenya as well). People cooking and eating clay just to have something in their stomachs. Cannibalism. Of course, I anticipate you throwing at me "the capitalist media lies!". Because when objectivity and fact doesn't work for people like you, you lay it on something else... you obviously can't just be... wrong. (P.S. The capitalist media does lie, sure, but this fact doesn't excuse the fact that the DPRK is a shithole).

I am horrified, mortified, and sickened by the conditions in Kenya and the system which creates them. My feeling is the same with North Korea. So don't respond to me referring to Kenya or anywhere else, in some kind of backwards implication that I think capitalism is better (which you keep doing to anyone who disagrees with you on Korea, because you have no real argument and have to find some ass-backwards way to make them wrong).

Josef Balin

25th February 2009, 20:45

I AM interested in possessing "political insight", the problem is most people can't provide any ... other than what they heard, read, or watched in a google film.

I'd love to travel to North Korea and really study their system and the way it works. However, I doubt my Visa would be approved.

All we are left with right now is the Aesthetics ... and a hypothesis on the rest.
It's possible to get a four day stay if you're over 18.

And yeah, Juche fucking sucks. It's a deformed worker's state with an ideology a lot worse than Cuba, but markedly better than Vietnam or Laos. It's economy is planned (to whoever said it's markets are "well developed" or whatever is extremely wrong, there are six cities in the country iirc where extremely limited capitalism is allowed).

Kernewek

25th February 2009, 21:12

1. no, but I want to

2. during my first year of uni I lived with one in my halls of residence, but as he never really spoke to anyone I have no stories

3. it's a brutal totalitarian dictatorship

4. although I don't trust the media their word seems to be far closer to the truth than that of the north Korean governments

5. yeah, you have an almighty dictator portrait as some kind of god and anyone who dares to speak out gets carted off to the camps

6. well they imprisoned an aid worker simply because he joked about Kim Jong Il being tubby, and all tourists have to lay flowers at the foot of his statue, so I’d guess the cult of personality is pretty prevalent
as a leader I rate him along side the likes of Stalin, Pol Pot and other such dictators

8. I don't know, but they have it pretty shit

10. the red star on their flag doesn't change the fact it's an oppressive dictatorship where the people are ground into the dirt in order to protect the ruling class, of course we shouldn't support them

I'd love to travel to North Korea and really study their system and the way it works. However, I doubt my Visa would be approved.

if you aren't american it's not hard to get in, I think they're starting to let americans in as well now

but don't expect to get any insight into what the country is really like. You can only leave your hotel with minders and you won't be allowed to meet any average working class people. Neither can you go into the residential areas or markets, wonder what they're trying to hide?

you will however get to see lots of cool statues

SocialismOrBarbarism

25th February 2009, 21:32

You know there are many middle positions between 'North Korea=Heaven on Earth' and 'North Korea=Hitler'.

It has negative and positive aspects. Relative to the global system of Capitalism, taken as a whole, the positive aspects win out easily. And who the hell cares about a personality cult! There are actually more important things than an irritating hero worship. You'd think socialism was the struggle against harmless personality cults!

What about the Obama personality cult, that sickening load of rubbish? Therefore, America is the worst place that ever existed.

There's a big difference between deciding to idolize someone and being told that if you don't, you're a counter-revolutionary.

Did anyone even look at the Kim Jong-il text I linked too?

To acquire a revolutionary outlook on the leader means to devote oneself to the leader, with a correct understanding that the leader is the centre of the socio-political organism, and hold him in high esteem with a pure heart.

The leader is the centre of the socio-political organism and the top-intellect. The masses can make up a socio-political organism capable of independent existence only when they are united solidly behind the leader, both organizationally and ideologically.

In order to be loyal to the revolution with the Juche outlook on the revolution, officials must also have an unshakable revolutionary view on the leader.

Unless you are loyal to the leader, you cannot be loyal to the party, to the people or to the revolution. This is the very reason why a revolutionary attitude towards the leader is the nucleus of the Juche outlook on the revolution and why loyalty towards the leader is the lifeblood of the communist revolutionaries of the Juche type.

etc

communard resolution

25th February 2009, 23:20

Whether you consider gigantic monuments and self-congratulatory parades a waste of money or not, whether you think the DPRK regime is to blame for its people's starvation or not, whether you think a ruling elite should have the right to dictate and control every aspect of peoples lives or not... regardless of all that, I think our discussion of North Korea should end with this one sentence:

In the 90's this went even further renouncing the workingclass as the revolutionary subject in favour of the army, the so called Songun policy.

Socialism without the working class - how about that?

I imagine it must have seriously turned some North Korean heads when the Kimist party declared one joyous day: "Actually, we don't want a dictatorship of the proletariat or workers state at all. All we want is a plain old military dictatorship".

Not that it realy needed to be spelled out at that point anymore, but the audacity to do so and still try to sell it as a communism-derived ideology is remarkable.

The Songun policy - I think this is really all we need to know. Based on this alone we can decide whether the DPRK regime is in any way worthy of our support, and I think the answer is simple.

Whether you wish to indulge in a somewhat nerdish, non-political fascination with the monuments, architecture and aesthetics of this giant prison camp in the privacy of your own home is another matter entirely.

EDIT: I can spontaneously think of at least one other person who wrote that the only 'true socialism' can be found in the military. But I won't mention his name to avoid being shouted at for taking a cheap shot. Write the answer on a piece of paper and put it in a hat.

Qayin

26th February 2009, 03:06

These pro DPRK people seem to like image over substance

OH LOOK SOME MONUMENTS AND DANCING PEOPLE ITS A GREAAAT PLACE

Cumannach

26th February 2009, 10:01

There's a big difference between deciding to idolize someone and being told that if you don't, you're a counter-revolutionary.

Did anyone even look at the Kim Jong-il text I linked too?

etc

Well I haven't seen anyone on here 'idolizing' North Korea, although I have seen plenty of reverse 'idolization' - North Korea is a real life 'orwellian' Hell on Earth, a perfect manifestation of evil, it's you anti-Koreans that are doing the 'idolization'.

Also, what determines whether or not North Korea could be called socialist and supported wholly or partly by us if we call ourselves socialists is not the nature of the omnipotent leader's rather dubious pronouncements, but the relations of production and the actions of the state power in relation to these.

The behaviour of the Western Bourgeoisie towards North Korea for the last 50 years should offer you some clue as to the nature of these.

Revy

26th February 2009, 11:06

1. Have any of you ever been to North Korea?
No.

2. Do any of you know anyone who has lived in North Korea; if so share their story with us?
No.

3. What is your general opinion on North Korea?
It is a dictatorship with little resemblance to actual socialism.

4. Do you believe the capitalist media when it comes to North Korea? Should their word be trusted?
When it comes to the idea that North Korea is "dangerous", we shouldn't trust their information.

5. People often call North Korea a “Stalinist” state, do you find this accurate? If so why?
Yes. It's Kim Jong-il ruling with a bureaucratic elite at his command.

6. Do you believe that the personality cult around Kim Jong Il is really as pervasive as the West says it is? How would rate him as a leader? What about his father?
0 out of 10. Yes his cult is pervasive. His father maybe was a little better but I doubt he was significantly different.

7. Would you recommend a particular book that looks at North Korea since the Korean War? One that is not written from a demonizing Western perspective.
I'm not sure, as I haven't read any.

8. Do you believe that your average North Korean lives better than your average Haitian/Somalian/Congolese etc? Is it really the “worst place on earth” like the Western Capitalist media states?
Of course. It is certainly better to live in North Korea than those places. It is not the worst place on Earth, it is just one of the most totalitarian.

9. Do they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons? How Strong do you believe their military actually is? Could they take over South Korea or Japan if they wanted to?
Yes, although I am against nuclear proliferation, in this age of double standards, I believe they have a justifiable claim to possess nuclear weapons to stop the threat of US invasion. I do not believe they would ever desire to take over South Korea or Japan.

10. Should leftists support North Korea in their struggle against the U.$. and her South Korean & Japanese puppet states?
We should support the people of North Korea when threatened by imperialism. However, we should not support the North Korean government.

Revy

26th February 2009, 11:35

Sure, they can build some cool monuments, but they need to work on their architecture.
http://rickoshea.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/ryugyong-hotel-lg.jpg

Also, this is a good thread full of good replies. Sorry I can't add anything useful to this discussion, but thanks, your posts and links are valuble to me
In Orwell's 1984, the Ministry of Truth is an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete rising 300 meters into the air, containing over 3000 rooms above ground.

The unfinished Rugyong Hotel in Pyongyang has planned 3000 rooms and is 330 meters high. Makes you think, doesn't it?

Revy

26th February 2009, 11:45

I'm sure North Koreans would love nothing more than to hear petit-bourgeois anarkiddies from the first world talk to them about how evil and oppressive their government is.

That's the thing. They can't see any of this, because they are not allowed to.
North Koreans do not any access at all to the Internet. Only Kim Jong-il does and maybe also the bureaucratic elite he controls.

Hiero

26th February 2009, 14:08

Whats your exposure to north korea? Are you genuinly denying that they could have spent there money better?!

That is incredible stupid, as is most of the liberal criticism of the DPRK. The problems of North Korea are not some budget problem, it is a problem of socialist isolation. It is a fact that it is extremely hard for North Korea to sustain itself and get ahead in food production. When there are a bad seasons such as floods or droughts people starve in North Korea, much like millions of other people around the world. What the north Koreans have done is manage to maintain a socialist economy in an imperialist dominanted world, they have done extremely well for such a small country. The major problems in north Korea, such as food production are a combination of local pyhscial environment against the larger geopolitical environment. And really starvation is a common problem for many 3rd world countries, the Korean's like most socialist are the only people with a long term plan and this has lead to their forced isolation heading by the imperialist and support by all various kinds from the right to the left.

In Orwell's 1984, the Ministry of Truth is an enormous pyramidal structure of glittering white concrete rising 300 meters into the air, containing over 3000 rooms above ground.

The unfinished Rugyong Hotel in Pyongyang has planned 3000 rooms and is 330 meters high. Makes you think, doesn't it?

No, but I don't base my political understand on an pseudo socialist fiction writer.

They can't see any of this, because they are not allowed to.

But if they are all starving then would that even be a concern?

This is perfect explain of liberal criticism of socialist economies, to uphold such liberties to the same standard as meeting the necessities of life.

SocialismOrBarbarism

26th February 2009, 20:40

Well I haven't seen anyone on here 'idolizing' North Korea, although I have seen plenty of reverse 'idolization' - North Korea is a real life 'orwellian' Hell on Earth, a perfect manifestation of evil, it's you anti-Koreans that are doing the 'idolization'.

I was referring to your Obama example. People are choosing to idolize him, they aren't doing it because if they don't they'll be considered a counter-revolutionary.

Also, what determines whether or not North Korea could be called socialist and supported wholly or partly by us if we call ourselves socialists is not the nature of the omnipotent leader's rather dubious pronouncements, but the relations of production and the actions of the state power in relation to these.

The behaviour of the Western Bourgeoisie towards North Korea for the last 50 years should offer you some clue as to the nature of these.

That doesn't even make sense. If North Korea has an "omnipotent leader" then it obviously isn't socialist.

Cumannach

26th February 2009, 21:37

I was referring to your Obama example. People are choosing to idolize him, they aren't doing it because if they don't they'll be considered a counter-revolutionary.

That doesn't even make sense. If North Korea has an "omnipotent leader" then it obviously isn't socialist.

I meant to put omnipotent in q marks 'omnipotent', mocking the silly notion of Kim as all powerful tyrant.

And about Obama, well, the american that doesn't idolize someone in the pantheon of approved politicians and actually rejects the whole disgusting charade is quite likely to come to be told they're 'un-american'.

lvl100

26th February 2009, 22:51

Its interesting to read the KFA forums, as they are an official supported by DPRK organization with the president Alejandro Cao De Benos being a mouthpiece for the regime.
So basically all their guidlines are coming directly from Pyonyang so forum`s very strict rules can create a image of what is and what is not endorsed by the regime.
However, i do not recommended posting there, considering that 99% of Revleft users would be banned from the first post there.

You can enjoy reading about worker`s power in the socialist DPRK

Some user : I've recently read that NK people can't sit or folding newspapers due to the picture of Dear Leader appearing on the cover

Alejandro Cao De Benos : You can fold the newspaper, but not cutting the image of the Leader
You do not sit on the image of the Leader, is a lack of respect.
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Or find what the real truth about homosexuals

What I'm trying to say is that the D.P.R.K is basically the only nationw ith absolute moral respect. People come to see that homosexuality is completely bourgeois

etc etc

communard resolution

26th February 2009, 22:54

That is incredible stupid, as is most of the liberal criticism of the DPRK.

You know that someone's got nothing substantial to say at all when words like 'liberal' come flying at you on revleft.

As for the isolation that you perceive North Korea as being a victim of: you do not think that the DPRK regime itself might be partly to blame for the country's isolation? Maybe just a little bit?

No, but I don't base my political understand on an pseudo socialist fiction writer.No way could he have just been a socialist to his best understanding and with all his heart. He was a "pseudo-socialist" - a pretender, a bleeding-heart liberal. He even went as far as risking (and almost losing) his life against fascism in Spain just to make everybody believe he was a socialist. What a pathetic poseur!

Aside from his novels he may have written a number of highly original political and sociological non-fiction texts, written from a Marxist perspective and at the same time full of independent thought, but to us he will always just remain a pseudo-socialist fiction writer. Especially when compared to the writings of true progressives, namely those of DPRK/military dictatorship apologists on revleft.

This is perfect explain of liberal criticism of socialist economies, to uphold such liberties to the same standard as meeting the necessities of life.No one in their right mind would claim that internet access is as important as basic needs such as food, and no one actually did claim that. You're distorting things as you please.

Not in contradiction to anything Hiero wrote, just out of general interest: I think this short wiki entry is intriguing, esp the paragraph "How long can North Korea ward off the Internet from its general public?"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_in_North_Korea

I'd be curious how the inevitable mobile phone propaganda war will evolve, how the access to non-official information will affect the North Korean people, and what the outcome will be. Not taking any sides here, just wondering about the possibilites.

Hiero

27th February 2009, 02:56

You know that someone's got nothing substantial to say at all when words like 'liberal' come flying at you on revleft.

It is a liberal analysis against the marxist analysis which looks at what class the state in the DPRK serves. He's is a liberal analysis because he looks at various superficial things in the abstract, like democracy, civil liberties or they wierd way of expressing state culture etc.

As for the isolation that you perceive North Korea as being a victim of: you do not think that the DPRK regime itself might be partly to blame for the country's isolation? Maybe just a little bit?

By not coming capitalist?

The DPRK has extended it's relations with various nations around the world, but the hegonomy of the US systems limits how much the DPRK can use it's relations with other nations.

No one in their right mind would claim that internet access is as important as basic needs such as food, and no one actually did claim that. You're distorting things as you please.

Not in contradiction to anything Hiero wrote, just out of general interest: I think this short wiki entry is intriguing, esp the paragraph "How long can North Korea ward off the Internet from its general public?"

Well one paragraph he is talking about people dying of starvation in the city streets, next he is talking about people being banned from the interenet as if they hold the same severity.

If people are really starving in the streets then they would not care about whether they have interenet access. All these allegations against DPRK end up runing into each other, we can assume that some a highly exagerated.

SocialismOrBarbarism

27th February 2009, 11:28

It is a liberal analysis against the marxist analysis which looks at what class the state in the DPRK serves. He's is a liberal analysis because he looks at various superficial things in the abstract, like democracy, civil liberties or they wierd way of expressing state culture etc.

Democracy is superficial? If the "Marxist analysis" is that North Korea has a "socialist economy" without the socialism, then I think I'll go with the "liberal" analysis.

I meant to put omnipotent in q marks 'omnipotent', mocking the silly notion of Kim as all powerful tyrant.

And about Obama, well, the american that doesn't idolize someone in the pantheon of approved politicians and actually rejects the whole disgusting charade is quite likely to come to be told they're 'un-american'.

I don't usually make conclusions about places like North Korea and whether they're democratic or not because it's pretty much impossible to make an accurate conclusion with all of the pro-DPRK and anti-DPRK propaganda, but when Kim Jong-Il is telling people they're counter-revolutionary if they won't give their life for the dear leader, that the leader is the smartest person in the country, that without the leader the country couldn't exist, and that being against the leader means being against the people, that is NOT the sign of a healthy democracy.

Then we still have the Songun policy that says that the military is the revolutionary class, not the workers, as pointed out by Nero and Mayakovsky.

Honestly, with all of that in mind, how the hell can anybody try to call North Korea socialist?!

Crux

27th February 2009, 16:22

I AM interested in possessing "political insight", the problem is most people can't provide any ... other than what they heard, read, or watched in a google film.

I'd love to travel to North Korea and really study their system and the way it works. However, I doubt my Visa would be approved.

All we are left with right now is the Aesthetics ... and a hypothesis on the rest.
The information I know, and given that I have an ideology to base my ideas on, makes me think I at least get the broad picture. You have already seen my actual criticism so it would be interesting if you, or indeed anyone, would respond to it.

Crux

27th February 2009, 16:29

It is a liberal analysis against the marxist analysis which looks at what class the state in the DPRK serves. He's is a liberal analysis because he looks at various superficial things in the abstract, like democracy, civil liberties or they wierd way of expressing state culture etc.Yes, wheras a liberal analysis, such as it is presented here would base themself on aesthetics and claims by the regime, the marxist analysis bases itself on the actual material conditions, in as far as we know them. The refutations from self-styled pro-DPRK marxists have thus far been pretty much limited to "The north koreans would not agree with you", something you cannot possibly have any knowledge about.

By not coming capitalist?
It's from what I can tell well on it's way. That's the problem with bearucratic dictatorship versus worker's controll, the former inevtibly leads back to capitalism, rathe rthan socialism.

The DPRK has extended it's relations with various nations around the world, but the hegonomy of the US systems limits how much the DPRK can use it's relations with other nations.

Thankfully it got such great "socialist" countries like Vietnam and China as their closests allies. In any case, internationalism in the socialist sense is not inter-national relations first and foremost but cooperation between the workingclass themself. Something DPRK quite obviously is both incapable of and unintrested in.

Well one paragraph he is talking about people dying of starvation in the city streets, next he is talking about people being banned from the interenet as if they hold the same severity.
Are you indicating that eitehr would not be severe?

If people are really starving in the streets then they would not care about whether they have interenet access. All these allegations against DPRK end up runing into each other, we can assume that some a highly exagerated.
Strawman.