Beauty Standards...are they discriminatory?

[benhur]

Are they? Do you feel these so-called standards are simply a roundabout way of showing one's race is superior. Please share your views, this is not something anyone has ever discussed here (I could be wrong, but who cares?).

[Bitter Ashes]

I'm not sure what you mean by race superiority when it comes to beauty.
I guess a lot of the measure of beauty is down to physical charactistics of an individual and at least some of that is geneticly determined I suppose. Stuff like having long legs, round boobs and a nicely shaped face. There's even forumulas that people use for the "ideal" measurements arent there?
The standard does get moved though. I think 20 years ago it was all about how outlandishly huge your chest was and 40 years before that it was about how flat your chest was.
This is without even starting on fashion and how that changes so quickly.

[Lynx]

Can you provide an example of racist beauty standards?

I vaguely remember a study that claimed aquiline features were considered more attractive to observers from different races. Or something like that.

[Iowa656]

I am a bit confused as to exactly what you are asking, but I'll give it a shot.

Answer this one question, if a slim petite lady with a pretty face and a "large" chest and also a large women with a bad fashion sense were to have an job interview, which one would get the job?


Do we discriminate on looks? Isn't that obvious? Why do the most successful people in society always seem the most attractive? Why are the film stars the pin up posters and not the cleaners?

A recent study found that when people were asked to estimate someone's intelligence based upon only looks, the most "attractive" people came out as the most intelligent.


As for the race issue, look at a western fashion magazine, a cat walk, or the similar and count the number of non-white faces you see. Is that representative of society? I'm willing to bet a lot it won't be.

Beauty is, almost certainly, a social and cultural construct. What makes a woman or a man beautiful? Is that universal world wide? Is western beauty considered beautiful in other societies? Certain tribal groups in like the Kayan in Burma, for example, see the most beautiful woman as the one with the longest neck (for I'm sure you've seen the pictures of the neck rings before). Is that something westerners would find attractive?

Saying your race is superior because it is the most "beautiful" is the most ethnocentric argument I've ever heard. Westerners may find western women the most beautiful, but does that mean anyone else does? Again, your idea of beauty is based on your cultural and social upbringing.

Even so within one culture, what is beautiful to me may not be beautiful to you.

[benhur]

Thanks for all your responses. Sorry I didn't make myself clear in the OP. While it's true that different cultures have different standards, those standards don't become universal. It's usually the dominant culture that sets standards for others to follow. This is the point of my post.

[manic expression]

Well, all beauty standards are essentially discriminatory by necessity.

In terms of racist tendencies, I think you'll find beauty standards aren't always so consistent. For instance, in China and India, lighter skinned women are deemed far more desirable than women with darker complexions. If you've ever seen a Bollywood movie you know exactly what I'm talking about. At the same time, women in the US fall over themselves to "get a tan" whenever possible, and Latin American and African/African-American models do find work and are seen as beautiful. At the same time, someone like Beyonce has been trying to portray herself as white as possible for years.

When you get down to it, it's just a matter of people putting each other down. Light-skinned African-Americans get made fun of at some points by their peers, and dark-skinned African-Americans get crap, too. Really fair white people (blonde, pale, blue-eyed) get made into jokes and the same goes for others. There's no real standard, it's just a bunch of assholes trying to make themselves feel better by pointing their fingers at whomever's different.

What I see as a big and subtle challenge is hair. African hair isn't naturally straight and it's a potential sore spot when there's a stigma attached to it. Being pressured into putting chemicals into your hair to make it the way it apparently wasn't made to be is pretty tough on self-esteem. To be honest, you still don't see many prominent figures with afros, cornrows, dreads, buzzes or other styles that utilize kinky hair instead of trying to hide it. It's important to provide those models instead of just having straight hair everywhere, it provides choice, which is what beauty is all about anyway.

By the way, this is all second-hand stuff, just my personal observations really.

[LOLseph Stalin]

This is difficult to answer as every culture has different ideas about what beauty is. Something that is considered "beautiful" to us may be considered "hidious" to somebody else. I think it's best to leave it at that.

[Pawn Power]

Of course beauty standards are racist.

The beauty industry upholds the dominant white beauty standards like straight hair and light skin. Girls and women with think curly hair are compelled to straiten it. Dark skin women are prompted to bleach their skin to comply with dominant beauty standards which portray their bodies as disagreeable.

Obviously it is much more complicated then this and their are many more forces at work but in general these dominant standards do demonstrate racist priority. Another complexity is seen with the fad of tanning, in which you have white women and men use rub on tans and frequent tanning booths in the dead of winter to roast their skin into a few shades darker. Generally, the new standard of the industry is to always portray beauty as something you have to obtain (that is to buy). So regardless of how you look, you have to alter that. One has to be something they are not and to do this you must consume a product/service.

[brigadista]

i see the discussion seems to centre on beauty standards for women...

[Kamerat]

i see the discussion seems to centre on beauty standards for women...
Of course, men cant be beautiful. :laugh:

Yes beauty standards are discriminatory. Not between race (that would be racism), but between good looking and not so good looking people.

[brigadista]

Of course, men cant be beautiful. :laugh:

Yes beauty standards are discriminatory. Not between race (that would be racism), but between good looking and not so good looking people.

yes but so far there are quite a few descriptions of women on here -can't this discussion be about both?

[Lynx]

Male models and actors represent the beauty standard for men.

[diome]

Yes, I think beauty standards are both discriminating and rascist. I can only speak in the context of the western world though. The western beauty standards are mostly based on aryan ideals of beauty. Which come from a background of eugenics - a very popular thing in the late 19th, early 20th century. There's a longer history to that though.

Like has been mentioned here already, beauty standards are a cultural construct (and western ideals are more and more "exported" into other cultures). I've been trying to set my mind so that I could live outside of the beautiful-ugly dichotomy of human appearance. It's very hard and perhaps impossible (well, I can never been totally outside of anything that has been there all my life, and in which terms I've grown up thinking). But I recommend trying out not thinking in terms of who is beautiful and who isn't. At least becoming aware of one's own prejudices and mental patterns is mind opening.

What always keeps amazing me are the people who claim being subcultural/anarchist/countercultural and at the same time support rather strict beauty ideals, which in most cases are basically the exact same ones that can be seen everywhere else. Perhaps some things are so deep "inside us", that it's very hard starting questioning them?

[benhur]

Yes, I think beauty standards are both discriminating and rascist. I can only speak in the context of the western world though. The western beauty standards are mostly based on aryan ideals of beauty. Which come from a background of eugenics - a very popular thing in the late 19th, early 20th century. There's a longer history to that though.


Thanks, this is what I was expecting to read. Others couldn't quite get to it (they just couldn't see the connection except Pawn Power), but you did. Good post.

[Reuben]

Interesting that we have zipped straight to the question of race here. Is the social experience of being 'ugly' made better if one's ugliness is not a consequence of racially constituted beauty standards?

[Sendo]

if beauty standards are racist then apparently I'm an Oriental, African, Latina supremacist and a self-loathing redheaded Irish mutt. If I wanted someone who looked like me I'd just marry my cousin.

But in all seriousness, there are a lot of ethnic-based beauty standards I find annoying. Like the anti-freckle or anti-curly hair business. It's best to just rock the way you are and find someone who likes it than look fake. Attitudes towards freckles are interesting and telling. If someone is blind (a serious flaw) than they are pitied and not ridiculed. If someone is color-blind (a minor flaw) or have poor eyesight they are fair-game.

Now reverse that, if someone is black, you can't openly say "you have icky kinks in your hair), but if someone is the same skin color more or less but marred by freckles they are fair game. It's like the major "flaws" are beyond speaking but the minor ones are fair game and I'd always wonder why freckles were so hated.

Personally, I can't stand freckles though. Well, in terms of sexual hotness. It's b/c I have freckles as does my mother and then....almost no one else that I know. If I see freckles (which is rare) I feel like I'm looking into a mirror or I'm looking at my mother. It'd be like a girl having curly red hair or having my mother or sister's first name. Hits too close to home. That's why I usually find other ethnic groups to be generally more appealing. I'd be like George Costanza on Seinfeld in that episode he broke up with a woman because she resembled his best friend too much (Jerry). I'm like that. But taller and not fat or bald, but employed and not as neurotic, and younger.

[al8]

There are so many standards out there in use that I find it confusing to conseptualize how it all works on the whole. I know for example that health in perticular, facial symetry, and other body characteristics are all common factors in determining beauty. I would like to see a statistical analysis on how these factor weigh in with people and to what extent beauty standards are spread by dominant media institutions (capitalist tv-networks, fashion magazines etc.). I want to know this because there are always exeptions to the rules. Having severe acne is not consider contributing to beauty, but yet again some few people object and say they have a quirk for it.

I for one, as opposed to Sendo, am very much for freckles and red hair. I find them to be attractive qualities.

[eyedrop]

There is also a certain class bias to beauty standards. In earlier times when food was scarce having some bulk was attractive. When most people worked outside women carried sun-umbrellas to avoid getting a tan. Nowadays most people work inside so now it's a attractive to be tan, as most people don't have much opportunities to sun bathe.

Male beauty-standards haven't really been that important earlier as men have gotten mates mostly based on their social status. Although that is changing.

Simplified beauty standards too a certain extent follows what is hard for most people too achieve.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Are they? Do you feel these so-called standards are simply a roundabout way of showing one's race is superior. Please share your views, this is not something anyone has ever discussed here (I could be wrong, but who cares?).Beauty standards aren't limited to a single chart of information. As an example, with men there is a market of admirers for the more feminine celebrities, yet "rugged" men like Hugh Jackman receive just as much attention.

I never understood the low key taboo around curly hair. A lot of men - myself included - think it's highly attractive (if taken care of). American culture does emphasize tanning for some strange reason, but it's not unheard of for men and women to see paleness as a benefit. And for all the sigma "gingers" receive, they too have admirers. Look at the fan base for Rupert Grint.

[diome]

When you look at the beauty standards of Miss (and Mr - not bodybuilding) competitions, or the modelling industry, I think that's where the point of this discussion lies.

The Miss competitions were a product of time when eugenics were very popular. This is apparent especially in the context of Finland. Finns were in the early 20th century thought to be of the mongoloid variation - ugly and lower quality humans. Then Miss Finland won the Miss Europe title. That changed attitudes! And ever since Miss Finland has been a real institution, a widely supported expression of the beauty of finnish women. Who are not ugly mongols, but can stand up to meet the aryan standards (very well, since many are also blue eyed and blond - the "traditional" Miss Finland is always just that, when a half black woman won, that was a big issue to many...).

And sure there nowadays are many socially acceptable beauty standards. The society as a whole is fragmented. Some things remain unacceptable, like has been pointed out here. Some men admire fat women, but fat women are generally considered ugly due to being fat, and admiring fat isn't socially acceptable (someone who admires fat is labeled a freak).

My point was also, why there need to be beauty standards at all? I just wrote to a topic about human nature. Are we by nature greedy and selfish? I guess that's a valid point also considering beauty standards. What are they all about? Are they necessary? Are humans capable of loving each other without conditions? Or is there always a condition, be it about looks or oher things? Usually I guess it's about looks.

[Trystan]

Oh God . . . no of course they're not fucking discrimanatory. Period.

[Pawn Power]

Oh God . . . no of course they're not fucking discrimanatory. Period.

You really need to qualify your statements. You are in no real position to put a verdict on the discussion. :lol:

Do you really think that the beauty industry which exists within a larger racist social structure does not discriminant? Particularly when it is largely controlled or at least manipulated by the bourgeois media, which has been shown to be discriminatory?

[Communist Theory]

I think this thread should be in Chit Chat, beauty doesn't really pertain to race. (Scratch that.)

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Do we discriminate on looks? Isn't that obvious? Why do the most successful people in society always seem the most attractive? Why are the film stars the pin up posters and not the cleaners?

Uh Chris Farley? Donald Trump? Both successful, neither attractive.

[Pawn Power]

I think this thread should be in Chit Chat, beauty doesn't really pertain to race.

We are talking not about beauty in a biological or philosophical sense but beauty standards and their relationship to the beauty industry as it exists in a racist society.

[F9]

I think this thread should be in Chit Chat, beauty doesn't really pertain to race.

discrimination isnt only about race!

Discrimination Forum to address issues of social discrimination; especially those related to gender, sexuality, race, and identity.

Fuserg9:star:

[kiki75]

Uh Chris Farley? Donald Trump? Both successful, neither attractive.
And, since they both have penises, society would say they don't have to be attractive.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

And, since they both have penises, society would say they don't have to be attractive.

Okay then, how about Rosanne?

I'm not in complete disagreement, I'm just pointing out that every generalization I know of has exceptions. I think in most cases it's quite true. I think it would be a better statement if "more often than not" or "in most cases" were put in there. I personally believe that a rational statement leaves some room for the exception(s) as to not come off as infantile.

I agree that there is a problem. I just leave room for the exception(s).

[Killfacer]

And, since they both have penises, society would say they don't have to be attractive.

The German chancellor ain't exactly a prize pig.

[Trystan]

You really need to qualify your statements. You are in no real position to put a verdict on the discussion. :lol:

Do you really think that the beauty industry which exists within a larger racist social structure does not discriminant? Particularly when it is largely controlled or at least manipulated by the bourgeois media, which has been shown to be discriminatory?

OK, firstly - beauty standards differ from person to person so pretty much everybody is being "descriminated" in in one way or another. Of course there are certain standards that are more popular than others but this is not the fault of the "bourgeois media"; it's just giving people what they want. And I don't think we live in a generally racist social structure, not anymore anyway.

Also, since these standards are all but inevitable in any society, so what do you plan to do about them? Pave the way for the Brave New World? :rolleyes:

[diome]

OK, firstly - beauty standards differ from person to person so pretty much everybody is being "descriminated" in in one way or another. Of course there are certain standards that are more popular than others but this is not the fault of the "bourgeois media"; it's just giving people what they want.

Giving people what they want. Isn't that just what the fascist and other kind of right wing parties are doing? If we were to ceize being critical about cultural phenomenon, shouldn't we stop discussing about class and such issues, and start a harmless knitting club?

Ideas create representations and representations create ideas. Yes, the public thinks a beautiful person looks a certain way. Thus we have models and such that look a certain way. And having those people look that way will create a beauty standard - an ideal.

However the thoughts people have about beauty didn't just pop up accidentally. They have a very long history. That's what has been one of my points. People don't just come up with such ideas "out of the blue". We are all living in this society, raised to it's values. None of us can escape history.

If you want to know if beauty standards are discriminatory, just take a look at some recent surveys! Beautiful people will get a job more easily, get paid more, are seen as more intelligent, etc. Especially short men and fat women are discriminated against, they for instance get lower salaries than long men and thin women. Fat people in general are also ridiculed in both the media and private life, in ways which are nowadays seen as politically incorrect if the target of ridicule is gay or black. Some even express an open hatred for fat people.

I'm sure many who are seen as seriously ugly experience perhaps even worse treatment. I've read of a case in which a woman's friends said they don't want her new boyfriend to attend any dinner parties or such, as the boyfriend is so ugly. He had a slightly deformed face due to genetical or birth conditions. Many people say they wouldn't even want to date a disabled person - I'm sure that's also true for those who are for some reason deformed.

What can be done about this then? It's a very hard thing to fight against, but I think it's mostly the same job that every single organization is doing. Raise awareness of the issue, try to influence people's opinions, offer alternative ways of thinking, try to influence legislation. Make a good example of yourself to start with!

I personally don't believe in violence, even for a good cause. I'm a pacifist, and respect those who are working on issues in peaceful ways. Even if it means getting inside of the system (an example might be "nude" calendards which promote alternative beauty, like old or fat people). So I'm a strong believer in small deeds, the effect of our everyday life choices on a circle of friends, who in turn perhaps share the idea with their circles of friends, etc.

[Revy]

At the same time, someone like Beyonce has been trying to portray herself as white as possible for years.

I don't really think that I have noticed this. Yes, she straightens her hair and dyes it blonde sometimes, is that what you meant? Because I'm not sure if that should be approached as trying to be white.

[Pawn Power]

Interesting that we have zipped straight to the question of race here. Is the social experience of being 'ugly' made better if one's ugliness is not a consequence of racially constituted beauty standards?

A valid point. Social determinations of who is 'ugly' can be seen as discriminatory in itself.

To be sure we 'zipped straight to the question of race' because that was the question first posed in this thread.

[Dominicana_1965]

I think that the relation between race and beauty is a deeply connected one that has been formed by our modern day social norms (this includes being white) and promoted by the privatized media and other vital means. I would encourage everybody, especially whites to critique and realize the privilege that such a social construct is given throughout the World. In India for instance, commercials are frequently promoting products that make an individual's skin lighter.

I even had a personal encounter with numerous females of dark or brown complexion that have said that they would like to be lighter, and this is blatantly something that comes from the images that are portrayed in the capitalist white dominated media. When I asked them why, they told me it was because light skin was seen positively in their communities (in which the majority were of brown complexion). In Latin America, it's easy to find channels filled with the most white looking people you can imagine, this includes nations where there are a big number of blacks, mestizos, natives and mulattos.

In the African-American community, the internal discrimination that this idealized racist "beauty" is creating can be seen through studies that showed that young African-American girls chose white dolls over black dolls every single time they were asked to pick. I highly doubt that this was just because they simply "liked" the white dolls, instead it seems to me that they considered white beauty as the social norm (that it is) through the youth media which widely promotes white actors as successful individuals.

To those that shrugged this issue off, I urge you to study it again because it's far more deeper than you think.

[Invincible Summer]

I think that the relation between race and beauty is a deeply connected one that has been formed by our modern day social norms (this includes being white) and promoted by the privatized media and other vital means. I would encourage everybody, especially whites to critique and realize the privilege that such a social construct is given throughout the World. In India for instance, commercials are frequently promoting products that make an individual's skin lighter.

I even had a personal encounter with numerous females of dark or brown complexion that have said that they would like to be lighter, and this is blatantly something that comes from the images that are portrayed in the capitalist white dominated media. When I asked them why, they told me it was because light skin was seen positively in their communities (in which the majority were of brown complexion). In Latin America, it's easy to find channels filled with the most white looking people you can imagine, this includes nations where there are a big number of blacks, mestizos, natives and mulattos.

In the African-American community, the internal discrimination that this idealized racist "beauty" is creating can be seen through studies that showed that young African-American girls chose white dolls over black dolls every single time they were asked to pick. I highly doubt that this was just because they simply "liked" the white dolls, instead it seems to me that they considered white beauty as the social norm (that it is) through the youth media which widely promotes white actors as successful individuals.

To those that shrugged this issue off, I urge you to study it again because it's far more deeper than you think.

Everything you said has merit, but I would like to add to this:

There have been sociological studies showing that lighter-skinned visible minorities (eg. lighter-skinned African-Americans or Hispanics) would be more likely to be favored in social situations or chosen for jobs over members of their ethnicity who are dark-skinned.

What's more, whenever the media/majority of people in Western society talk about "good looking" members of an ethnic group, those ethnic people usually have more "Anglocized" features. For example, Beyonce is seen as an attractive African-American woman, but her skin is quite fair and her features are relatively dissimilar to those of many other African-American women.

Beauty standards are set by the dominant forces of society; therefore, it is the media and advertising corporations that have a very powerful influence over what we (anyone with access to mass media) construe as "beautiful" or "attractive." It is no coincidence that many of the powerful members of these corporations are of Anglo descent; even if they aren't, the global connectedness of the bourgeoisie creates homogeny in every market.