is anyone hoping the US stockmarket fails?

[Auspicious one]

It seems to me, in my head( uneducated in economics),that if the stock market fails completely as in is no more/ completely bottoms out...that would cripple capitalism.

[IcarusAngel]

Of course I want capitalism, an evil system, to fail as many times as possible. I'm often glad about glim news. This shows what a failure of an economic system that it is. :)

But, we knew that already. :crying:

What does it matter if the system fails if people still will support it, only some variant of it (like Obama style state capitalism, versus other kinds of fascistic capitalism or free-market libertarianism)?

In order to build a better society, people need to understand the limitations of capitalism and our current system. And they don't yet, but who can blame them in a system with such a sophisticated propaganda system. My point is socialists, communists, anarchists and any other kind of leftist will still have their work cut out for them, even if capitalism did fail. So on the flip side of the equation, it might be BAD if capitalism fails, because people might tend to support fascism or some other rightist theory.

The war on the mind in capitalism is particularly harmful. Numerous people have written about this, from Noam Chomsky and Aldous Huxley, to Al Gore. Even the Guardian recently had an article asking the question of capitalism made people ill:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2008/jan/05/scienceandnature.society This mental sickness is as important as the economic sickness.

remember, communism teaches human nature is malleable, though.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

I am i the only one who is slightly worried about the the non-revolutionary effects of the economy going down the shitter?

I quite like having somewhere to live and food to eat.

[Auspicious one]

Of course I want capitalism, an evil system, to fail as many times as possible. I'm often glad about glim news. This shows what a failure of an economic system that it is. :)

But, we knew that already. :crying:

What does it matter if the system fails if people still will support it, only some variant of it (like Obama style state capitalism, versus other kinds of fascistic capitalism or free-market libertarianism)?

In order to build a better society, people need to understand the limitations of capitalism and our current system. And they don't yet, but who can blame them in a system with such a sophisticated propaganda system. My point is socialists, communists, anarchists and any other kind of leftist will still have their work cut out for them, even if capitalism did fail. So on the flip side of the equation, it might be BAD if capitalism fails, because people might tend to support fascism or some other rightist theory.

The war on the mind in capitalism is particularly harmful. Numerous people have written about this, from Noam Chomsky and Aldous Huxley, to Al Gore. Even the Guardian recently had an article asking the question of capitalism made people ill:
This mental sickness is as important as the economic sickness.

remember, communism teaches human nature is malleable, though.

Well I hope people start leaning towards obamas ways, because he is closer to the left than bush ever was, so i see that as a good thing.


I am i the only one who is slightly worried about the the non-revolutionary effects of the economy going down the shitter?

I quite like having somewhere to live and food to eat.

you will have somewhere to live, and you can grow food, and there is plenty of food stockpiled in america, but tis time for change , and the only way something will change is if everything goes to hell

[Vendetta]

I am i the only one who is slightly worried about the the non-revolutionary effects of the economy going down the shitter?

I quite like having somewhere to live and food to eat.

Yeah, I pretty much have the same opinion as Joe.

[IcarusAngel]

Auspicious you're kind of contradicting yourself. You say that capitalism has to fail to support a revolution but then support Obama, saying he's closer to leftist values. I agree, but we all know that its Bush/Reagan type policies that drive down a country, not social democracies, which seem to sustain capitalism, which Obama is closer to.

[Auspicious one]

Auspicious you're kind of contradicting yourself. You say that capitalism has to fail to support a revolution but then support Obama, saying he's closer to leftist values. I agree, but we all know that its Bush/Reagan type policies that drive down a country, not social democracies, which seem to sustain capitalism, which Obama is closer to.

im a newb, im probably going to contradict myself alot, i still am a anarchist socialist, but

i just thought that obama, on a political compass was closer to the ideas of socialism than bush, is closer to my ideals and a step in the right direction, i know he is no where close, but closer still than some... correct me if i am wrong

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Well I hope people start leaning towards obamas ways, because he is closer to the left than bush ever was, so i see that as a good thing.

He's a complete and utter **** and the moment he reveals himself to most people to be one i hope he gets shot.




you will have somewhere to live, and you can grow food, and there is plenty of food stockpiled in america, but tis time for change , and the only way something will change is if everything goes to hell

Your hippy shite does not make up for the fact life will be harder during one of capitlisms crisess. Theres no point debating if they are good or bad because they happen nethertheless. Im just saying if you cheer them on not only will you look like a complete toss pot and no one including myself will want anything to do with you.

[Auspicious one]

He's a complete and utter **** and the moment he reveals himself to most people to be one i hope he gets shot.




Your hippy shite does not make up for the fact life will be harder during one of capitlisms crisess. Theres no point debating if they are good or bad because they happen nethertheless. Im just saying if you cheer them on not only will you look like a complete toss pot and no one including myself will want anything to do with you.

:confused:

how am i a hippy

im not cheering anyone on...

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

"Grow your own foood doooood"

[Auspicious one]

"Grow your own foood doooood"
i thought that was an anarchist thing

being self sufficient

or a hunter gatherer

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

No its a middle class hippy thing to do. Growing Cabbages does not aid the class war.

[Auspicious one]

No its a middle class hippy thing to do. Growing Cabbages does not aid the class war.
where can i read more about this class war

still new to all this

and dont judge me because of my ignorance i am trying to learn

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

where can i read more about this class war


Well a class war is the struggle between the ruling class and the working class. A good down to earth pamplet on anarchism is class wars unfinished business

http://www.londonclasswar.org/unfinhome.php


still new to all this

and dont judge me because of my ignorance i am trying to learn

Yeah sorry for being a wanker. Feel free to ask any questions.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

No, I don't wish for the assets millions rely on for their retirement and college to suddenly vanish into a black hole. I wish those assets would be divvied out to those who need it and I wish all corporations would lose their charters and I wish the state would stop forcing us to recognize illegitimate property.

[Qayin]

im 50/50 on this

The cynical and apathetic would get a kick start again if it were to clash and maybe just maybe we could have a revolution

But what about those in hospitals? Retirement? A place to sleep and food to eat?Those factors stop me from saying ""Yeah crash you fucking beast system""

Fuck I hate capitalism.

[fuckemall]

The collapse of the stock market would be great for us leftist and the thought of it happening puts a smile on my face.
And before anyone slates me i know that it would cause a fair degree of suffering, but with great change comes sacrifice also.

[STI]

I'm of two minds. The stock market crashing means the immiseration of the proletariat.

... which, by extension, means the immiseration of myself, the people I care about, and most of the people I could ever potentially care about.

So that's bad news.

The good news, morbid as it is, is that when capitalism breaks (and people in hospitals die and kids get turbriculosis, and we're all living three families to a house and all of us are vegans because we can't afford meat), we've got an opportunity. Sort of a silver lining... or a "red lining".

So it's heaps and heaps and heaps of real-world bad news for most of us, with some theoretical/potential good news peppered in there.

[revolution inaction]

where can i read more about this class war

still new to all this

and dont judge me because of my ignorance i am trying to learn

http://libcom.org/news/

[Qwerty Dvorak]

Socialists should go into working class areas and tell the workers that they hope they are left without jobs.

[ZeroNowhere]

Socialists should go into working class areas and tell the workers that they hope they are left without jobs.
I know a guy who supported McCain because he would supposedly make everything worse and declare war on everybody and kill people and shit until we had a revolution. :lol:

[Glenn Beck]

The stock market will do what the stock market will do. But you don't have to be a genius to realize that the way things have been going is unsustainable. To wish to just turn back the clock and live it a little longer is to wish to defer the disaster to a later date in exchange for a few more moments of dumb innocent bliss. I don't see anything virtuous in this attitude especially considering that these "good old days" were ultimately not so good for many.

To make these observations isn't schadenfreude and doesn't make me a cheerleader for catastrophe. We didn't start this fire. Even though pretty much everybody suffers in a crisis not everyone suffers equally and the irreducable contention here is that regardless of capitalist success or capitalist failure workers are like slaves beholden to forces completely outside of their control. So this is why I reject any "we're all in this together" talk from the reformists.

[trivas7]

From an American libertarian POV here (http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse) is how dire things really are. Would that the left provided such in-depth analysis.

[MMIKEYJ]

Im glad when the stock market goes down, because it has to. We've had inflation running amuck for decades and devaluing of the currency going on just as long.

Deflation is what we need.

[Dejavu]

From an American libertarian POV here (http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse) is how dire things really are. Would that the left provided such in-depth analysis.


I love that crash course. :) I linked it a while back ago but I don't think many RLers read it. :(

[Schrödinger's Cat]

From an American libertarian POV here (http://www.chrismartenson.com/crashcourse) is how dire things really are. Would that the left provided such in-depth analysis.

Are you looking for a crown, or does trolling offset the doubt in your stomach?

[Ele'ill]

I hope it crashes without life support. :D

[#FF0000]

Yeah bro can't wait for the crash.

Can't wait for the banks to foreclose on my house and I can't wait to be laid off. Living in my car is gonna be great.

How many "socialists" in here cheering for this are still in high school? What a flat-out ignorant way to look at it. Do you really think it's that simple?

Hurr durr the stock market crashes then workers make socializms so crashes are gud rite lol.

Read a damn book, or, maybe, apply some fucking thinking to your views. Seeing so-called socialists come to such stupid, simple-minded conclusions is so endlessly irritating. It's just as bad as hearing anarchists talk positively about the death penalty. Jesus, are some of you just here for the Che shirts?

Observe. Think (this is the important part). Make Conclusion.

EDIT: don't worry I'm still very much a communist.

[Auspicious one]

Yeah bro can't wait for the crash.

Can't wait for the banks to foreclose on my house and I can't wait to be laid off. Living in my car is gonna be great.

How many "socialists" in here cheering for this are still in high school? What a flat-out ignorant way to look at it. Do you really think it's that simple?

Hurr durr the stock market crashes then workers make socializms so crashes are gud rite lol.

Read a damn book, or, maybe, apply some fucking thinking to your views. Seeing so-called socialists come to such stupid, simple-minded conclusions is so endlessly irritating. It's just as bad as hearing anarchists talk positively about the death penalty. Jesus, are some of you just here for the Che shirts?

Observe. Think (this is the important part). Make Conclusion.

EDIT: don't worry I'm still very much a communist.
i basically was asking " if the stockmarket crashes, will capitalism fail"

dude

chill out

why dont you go over this is your head

if the stockmarket fails, you actually think that EVERYONE in americas banks will forclose on them????!!!

and every1 will be laid off???

you make no sense

[#FF0000]

i basically was asking " if the stockmarket crashes, will capitalism fail"

It wasn't directed at you. And no, a stockmarket crash doesn't mean the end of capitalism. Crashes are an inevitable part of the economic cycle under capitalism. The market has crashed before, it'll crash again, and it'll crash again in another couple of decades. Might people eventually get sick of it and force a change in economic system from capitalism to something else? Yeah, maybe, but it is by no means an inevitability in anyrespect, and even so, it doesn't mean that economic crashes, which cause widespread problems (ESPECIALLY for the workers) are a good thing.



dude

chill out

why dont you go over this is your head

if the stockmarket fails, you actually think that EVERYONE in americas banks will forclose on them????!!!

and every1 will be laid off???

you make no sense

Well, statistically speaking, at LEAST one guy will make it out with a job and a place to sleep. Even so, to suggest that being a worker during a deep recession or depression is not that bad is astoundingly naive.

But, listen, I'm not trying to attack you. In your posts you've stated that you're still learning. That's fine. Asking this particular question doesn't bother me when I know the person is still trying work out their politics and world-view. It bothers me, however, when people who have called themselves socialists for a good while, long enough to know better, suggest that we have to put the working class through hell before they understand that socialism is a good thing. By that logic, Mussolini and Hitler have done more for the working class by oppressing them, than all the unions in the world have by fighting for better conditions. It's absurd.

[Communist Theory]

I am i the only one who is slightly worried about the the non-revolutionary effects of the economy going down the shitter?

I quite like having somewhere to live and food to eat.
Yeah, same here even though I could do without the capitalism.

[RGacky3]

I hope it does'nt crash more, because I want to have a job, and my savings. That comes first in my book before revolution.

That being said crashes are generally just Capitalism restructuring itself. Unfortunately with a lot of collateral damage.

The stock market crashing won't cause a revolution, not unless workers are already organized and class consious.

[KC]

I enjoy not starving.

[Ele'ill]

I already eat out of dumpsters and travel all around. A crash would be brilliant.

[#FF0000]

I already eat out of dumpsters and travel all around. A crash would be brilliant.

I'm sure workers with families, and, you know, shit to take care of, feel the same way.

[Auspicious one]

It wasn't directed at you. And no, a stockmarket crash doesn't mean the end of capitalism. Crashes are an inevitable part of the economic cycle under capitalism. The market has crashed before, it'll crash again, and it'll crash again in another couple of decades. Might people eventually get sick of it and force a change in economic system from capitalism to something else? Yeah, maybe, but it is by no means an inevitability in anyrespect, and even so, it doesn't mean that economic crashes, which cause widespread problems (ESPECIALLY for the workers) are a good thing.



Well, statistically speaking, at LEAST one guy will make it out with a job and a place to sleep. Even so, to suggest that being a worker during a deep recession or depression is not that bad is astoundingly naive.

But, listen, I'm not trying to attack you. In your posts you've stated that you're still learning. That's fine. Asking this particular question doesn't bother me when I know the person is still trying work out their politics and world-view. It bothers me, however, when people who have called themselves socialists for a good while, long enough to know better, suggest that we have to put the working class through hell before they understand that socialism is a good thing. By that logic, Mussolini and Hitler have done more for the working class by oppressing them, than all the unions in the world have by fighting for better conditions. It's absurd.
ok :cool:

[synthesis]

Another stupid thing to do would be to assume that people will swing to the left in the event of catastrophe. If history is any indicator, it can go either way, and the U.S. is not particularly promising in this regard.

[Dr.Claw]

im 50/50 on this

The cynical and apathetic would get a kick start again if it were to clash and maybe just maybe we could have a revolution

But what about those in hospitals? Retirement? A place to sleep and food to eat?Those factors stop me from saying ""Yeah crash you fucking beast system""

Fuck I hate capitalism.

Thats a big part of how bourgeoisie is able oppress us they make it so we cant live without their bull shit without the whole structure of our existence collapsing. But I guess what we can do is prepare our selves for when it does crash.

[Comrade Anarchist]

i want it to sometimes but it would hurt the workers more than the capitalists in the end i think that is why i have doubts about it collapsing.

[rosie]

I am i the only one who is slightly worried about the the non-revolutionary effects of the economy going down the shitter?

I quite like having somewhere to live and food to eat.
Comrade, as long as infrastructure stands and batteries are produced, you will have a place to live with electricity and heat. Generators are a wonderful invention. As long as there is dirt on the ground and seeds to plant you will have food to eat. There are many ways to live with out having a mortgage. Squatters have rights in many states in America (i'm not sure about other countries). Not all food out of the trash is bad. Most of it is still good. And there are many ways to kill and eat a squirrel. They are very yummy (although I'm a vegetarian and do not condone the mindless killing of ANY living creature, if you need to eat, you need to eat). Being "homeless" is kind of fun once you get good at taking care of yourself. It can be kind of lonely, but there are always people looking for a place to squat. You can get room mates and even split up responsibilities amongst the group. One person can have the responsibiliy of gathering food for everyone, another to get clean clothes, another can get new supplies (untensils, batteries, bolt cutters for locked dumpsters...that's where all the best goodies are kept!)...life isn't that hard. Capitalism makes it very difficult to live amongst society. Capitalism also has a way of making those who have been socialized beleive that once they no longer pay for a home all is hopeless. Just remember, homelessness is not really being without a home. It is living outside capitalism. And that is a good thing.:)

[XieJinyuan]

The recession will be over by winter 2010 at the very latest, lasting only briefly just like the numerous recessions before it; don't get your hopes up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_recessions

[JimmyJazz]

No, I don't wish for the assets millions rely on for their retirement and college to suddenly vanish into a black hole. I wish those assets would be divvied out to those who need it and I wish all corporations would lose their charters and I wish the state would stop forcing us to recognize illegitimate property.


I also wish they'd stop bailing out usurious corporate motherfuckers with my money.

As to the OP, it's kind of like wishing for a cloud just because it might have a silver lining (a temporarily slightly elevated public consciousness of the irrationality of capitalism, I guess?). Certainly there's no socialist party capable of seizing state power in the U.S., so every opportunity that arrives is simply going to be an opportunity missed.


Would that the left provided such in-depth analysis.

You just don't care to find it.

book (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_b?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=marxist+economic+theory&x=0&y=0)
book (http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Capitalism-Competition-Command-Change/dp/0195138651/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237077768&sr=1-1)
book (http://www.dollarsandsense.org/bookstore/infobanking.html)
book (http://www.amazon.com/Economics-Global-Turbulence-Robert-Brenner/dp/1859847307/ref=ed_oe_h)

website (http://www.vanityfair.com/magazine/2009/01/stiglitz200901)
website (http://www.cepr.net/)
website (http://www.dollarsandsense.org/financialcrisis.html)
website (http://www.globalpolicy.org/socecon/crisis/index.htm)

Anyway, half the stuff in that link you provided was not inherently "rightist". Most of the books and sites that I read, on topics from economics to the Russian Revolution, are written by center or right-of-center people, if not frothing-at-the-mouth anti-socialists like Richard Pipes or Alistair Horne. I read The Economist. One of the most recent books I read was The Judas Economy (http://www.amazon.com/Judas-Economy-Triumph-Capital-Betrayal/dp/0738202029/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237079041&sr=1-1), written by the former chief economist of Businessweek. I read all this stuff from all over the spectrum, and filter out the facts from the opinion. Somehow I doubt you were ever so intellectually honest as that, nor are you now.

The fact that you went from being a socialist to a right-libertarian troll without ever even pausing at, say, Keynsianism, seems to be evidence of the same.

[Jack]

Of course not.

I need to eat, and we're no where near as strong as we need to be (any leftist) to be prepared for the fall of Capitalism.

[NecroCommie]

Whether capitalism thrives or not, I am always a slave to it. Certainly I prefer my slavery to be easy rather than a hard one, but above all I wish to be free.