Shock BNP victory in Kent.

[Os Cangaceiros]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1151102/Shock-BNP-victory-far-right-candidate-takes-council-seat-Kent.html

Somebody posted this on another site.

I know almost nothing about British politics, so I don't know how significant this is (if it's significant at all). But I am interested in the economic situation in Britain and how that connects and relates to rightwing sentiments and rightwing parties like the BNP.

[rednordman]

Oh shit!
It is correct that Mr Cruddas predicted the BNP would get more support during the recession. Looks like i didnt take him seriously enough. This isnt groundbreakingly shocking, but its definitly not good. Frankly, I'm suprised voters opted for BNP over, say, the Tories.

[Bitter Ashes]

:scared:!
Could they have voted in a worse party?

[rednordman]

:scared:!
Could they have voted in a worse party?
No they actually could not. Is it me, or has there hardly been any coverage of this in the media? This is the first I have heard of it all day. You would think that it would attract attention on controversy alone.

[Bitter Ashes]

It's not the first time in the last few years that BNP councellors have been elected, but they all got voted out again straight away because they didnt actualy do anything other than rant about racial stuff. I thought the UK had learned its lesson by now :(

[revolution inaction]

The BNP won 408 votes to Labour's 332, while the Tories earned 247. The turnout was an above-average 31.3 per cent.

31% turn out :lol:

I don't think 400 people being stupid enough to vote for the bnp is significant, if they win a seat in parliament or a majority on a council i might care.
Seriously the daily mail is more dangerous then the bnp.

[Dr Mindbender]

belongs in anti fascism.

Can the local or global mods move this please?

Cheers.

[walterrich]

:scared:!
Could they have voted in a worse party?

I guess the British People's Party would have been worse.

But they weren't standing. So no.

[revolution inaction]

400 votes? Is Daily Mail the Fox News of the UK? :laugh:

Does fox news hate immigrants, Gipsies, gays, people who claim benefits, computer games etc? I haven't seen fox news but I get the impression they are quite similar. The daily mail used to support the fascist party until nearly the start of WW2, so its a little strange to see them opposes the bnp, I suppose anything to sell papers.

[Bitter Ashes]

400 votes? Is Daily Mail the Fox News of the UK? :laugh:
Very much so. The Daily Mail, The Sun and Fox News are all owned by Rupert Murdoch and have all the hateful reputation that goes with it. :(

[Pogue]

Daily Fail is populist/right wing bullshite, but they wouldn't go as far as to openly support the Barmy Nazi Paedophiles. They'd have a line somewhat like 'They're unbritish, we're tolerant etc' whilst also parroting anti-immigration, anti-traveller etc shite.

[Module]

Moved to Anti-Fascism

[Holden Caulfield]

Daily Fail is populist/right wing bullshite, but they wouldn't go as far as to openly support the Barmy Nazi Paedophiles
You mean they wouldnt go as far to openly support Nazis again.

Not after all that Hilter and Oswald Mosley loving shit blew up in their face...

[Pogue]

Yeh, thats what I meant. They just wouldn't do it in todays political climate.

[Greenman]

The current economic climate could see opportunities for both the left and the far right in Britain. Unfortunately the far right are now quite well placed to make electoral (and perhaps more alarmingly, social - they are starting to try and infiltrate community and environmental campaigns in the East Midlands) gains. The far left in Britain is in more or less total disarray - the level of organisation and numbers on the ground of the whole left, let alone individual groups is poorer than anytime in my memory, and I have been politically active on the left since the early 1980s.
The far right on the other hand has daily support/reinforcement from the mass circulation tabloids (though this is support for many of their policies and attitudes, rather than their candidates or parties, as mentioned above - the rightist media will disown the parties whilst echoing their xenophobia and scapegoating). The BNP in particular is poised to challenge to win European parliament seats ( a serious contender to win a seat in at least two regions) which will give it extra funds, profile and platform. The softer nationalists of UKIP have blazed the trail for the hard right in the Euro elections, but their adherence to free market Thatcherite economic ideas, splits and the rise of the BNP may damage them in the coming elections.
There is now an urgent need in Britain for the left to get its act together - green shoots offering hope were the recent Conventions of the Left working on tactical unity at the grassroots and the effective intervention of groups as diverse as the Socialist Party (CWI), Green Left and the rump Respect in some recent disputes and campaigns.
The far right can only be really undermined by the left if the solutions to real problems and concerns the left puts forward are seen as preferable to those of the right, if the left is seen as the most effective force locally where the right seeks to grow and if silly sectarian squabbling and destructive competition (Only working on "branded" projects of your own party/group as opposed to positive competition - where we all act together and all gain adherents from a united movement) are banished in favour of activities to benefit the class and the left as a whole.
What we need are not more local anti-fascist popular fronts, but local activist networks that can unite to take on all the local, national and international political and social issues, with a particular emphasis on the main concerns of ordinary working class people.

[Melbourne Lefty]

The softer nationalists of UKIP have blazed the trail for the hard right in the Euro elections, but their adherence to free market Thatcherite economic ideas, splits and the rise of the BNP may damage them in the coming elections.

If the BNP scores more overall votes than the UKIP then UKIP will collapse and a very large chunk of their voters and activists will SWARM into the BNP.

That would give the BNP the middle class well off base it has sought after for years now which would help them to push their ideology into the fringes of the middle class mainstream.

Anyone going to say Im wrong?

[nuisance]

31% turn out :lol:

I don't think 400 people being stupid enough to vote for the bnp is significant, if they win a seat in parliament or a majority on a council i might care.
Seriously the daily mail is more dangerous then the bnp.
This reaks of complaceny. When far right groups can make gains like this then it gives legitimacy to their ideas, that are staunchly opposed to the overall interests of our class, and has the potenial to produce grass root bases that can potenially be hard to break up, aswell as providing a phyiscal arm to the party.
400 people weren't 'being stupid enough to vote the bnp'. 400 people conciously decided that this bigoted party stuffed to the seams with nazi throwbacks, are honestly the best representative of their beliefs out of the groups fielded. If anything this should be a kick up the arse for the left and highlight the necessity of antifascism, espicially during times of capitalist crisis.

[Holden Caulfield]

Anyone going to say Im wrong?
Sounds pretty plausable, but I think it might take more to push the middle classes to support the BNP "openly". UKIP has the advantage of not being commonly seen as a 'nazi party'

[revolution inaction]

This reaks of complaceny. When far right groups can make gains like this then it gives legitimacy to their ideas, that are staunchly opposed to the overall interests of our class, and has the potenial to produce grass root bases that can potenially be hard to break up, aswell as providing a phyiscal arm to the party.
400 people weren't 'being stupid enough to vote the bnp'. 400 people conciously decided that this bigoted party stuffed to the seams with nazi throwbacks, are honestly the best representative of their beliefs out of the groups fielded. If anything this should be a kick up the arse for the left and highlight the necessity of antifascism, espicially during times of capitalist crisis.

I total agree that they should be opposed but I think that its easy to exaggerate the importance of the bnp. When is reported that the bnp has won a council seat it sounds worse than if you look at the number of people who voted for them.
Numbers from here (http://www.sevenoaks.gov.uk/council_democracy__local_services/elections_and_voting/3557.asp)
408 people voted for the BNP out of 987 people who voted in the election giving them 41.34% of the vote.
The turnout for the election was 31.33% which means that 12.95% of people who where registered to vote thought it was worth voting for them, and 68.67% of people recognized there was nothing worth voting for.
The biggest danger from the bnp wining this election is that it will encourage the mainstream parties to adopt the same kind of policies, which they are already doing.
I say that the Daily Mail is a bigger danger than the BNP because they promote ideas that encourage people to blame immigrants and minorities for their problems and it seams likely that many of the people who voted for the bnp did so because they believed these stories.
So I think the most effective action we can take against the bnp is to show how these ideas are false and that the real problems are mostly caused by capitalism, and we cant solve these problems by voting for different leaders but instead we should take action our selfs.

[Holden Caulfield]

^ Read this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1364358&postcount=34) and this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/some-questions-answered-t102216/index.html).

[nuisance]

I total agree that they should be opposed but I think that its easy to exaggerate the importance of the bnp.

No one is insinuating that the BNP are about to gain any significant power within the parliamentary system, that will take time and more capitalist support if it is to happen. However I do feel that many people who accuse antifascists of exaggerating the importance of confronting the extreme right do not understand the violent nature of fascism.
Fascism is a ideology that is based around the destruction of their opponents and the class conciousness we aim to promote. Antifascism is necessary in immediate terms, due to the thugs they have within their ranks whom attack and intimidate those they oppose. This is a more immediate effect of the rise in far wing support than any success they could potenially gain within Parliament. It is a problem now.
The BNP are a problem. They have more support than the radical left in our areas, and now also in middle class areas, or atleast that's how it appears.
The BNP are a great problem to us in our organising, as they sap support from the communities that we also try and get support from. Unfortunatly the left in the UK are failing in gaining popular support, despite many groups recently growing in membershipm, and the likes of the BNP gaining support from working people disillusioned with the current state of affairs is dangerous.



When is reported that the bnp has won a council seat it sounds worse than if you look at the number of people who voted for them.
408 people voted for the BNP out of 987 people who voted in the election giving them 41.34% of the vote.
The turnout for the election was 31.33% which means that 12.95% of people who where registered to vote thought it was worth voting for them, and 68.67% of people recognized there was nothing worth voting for.
To be fair, that is a massive amount of support for a relatively small fringe party. Again, I stress that these sort of the groups are opposed moreso on the effects they have within our communities opposed to any expectation of them becoming the one of the leading parties in the UK.


The biggest danger from the bnp wining this election is that it will encourage the mainstream parties to adopt the same kind of policies, which they are already doing.
Yes, that is a threat which antifascism also opposes by default.


I say that the Daily Mail is a bigger danger than the BNP because they promote ideas that encourage people to blame immigrants and minorities for their problems and it seams likely that many of the people who voted for the bnp did so because they believed these stories.
This is not an arguement against the BNPs growing support.


So I think the most effective action we can take against the bnp is to show how these ideas are false and that the real problems are mostly caused by capitalism, and we cant solve these problems by voting for different leaders but instead we should take action our selfs.

It is a fallacy that well reasoned arguements from the left can greatly deter the growing support of the far right. Fascism and our critiques of it have existed for awhile now, yet fascism always raises its head. As an ideology fascism is anti-rational and as a result objects to the intelluctual side of things, despite attempts to indulge themselves within debate.
Not confronting the right hinders our own ability to organise and puts people directly at risk as the groups get cocky with not facing any direct opposition. For example the massive displays by the National Front in the late 70s and 80s until AFA brought the fight to them.
However, I'm not saying that reasoned arguements are useless, they are not. But we have to understand how fascism works and why they gain support, then realise from looking at history that a tatic of solely reasoned arguement doesn't work. Fascism needs to break the labour movements on behalf of the capitalists, and with us not really having much of a labour movement in the UK at the moment, I don't think we should be so willing to underestimate the threat that we are confronted with and any gains made destoryed.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Fascism is a ideology that is based around the destruction of their opponents and the class conciousness we aim to promote.


This is the point.

The BNP Is NOT going to take power, even the BNP people know that though they talk up their slender as hell chances.

Not even if there is a massive depression, I dont believe that the BNP will ever gain enough support to take over the government.

But thats not the point...

The point is that every vote they gain is a likely convert away from class conciousness.

Once someone begins to see the world in terms of racial divisions not class divisions we have to convince them back, which takes time and resources and may not be possible.

And while anti-fascism is important, building class conciousness is the only way towards a better world.

The real danger of the fascists was that they could hurt innocent people via violence, the real danger of the NEW BNP style right-populists is that they can split communitiesmuch more effectively than the old NF, making it hard for the left to get our people on our side on our natural turf.

If people dont find this shocking and disturbing then I dont know what will disturb them.

[Anarchyandpeace]

This is the point.


The point is that every vote they gain is a likely convert away from class conciousness.

Once someone begins to see the world in terms of racial divisions not class divisions we have to convince them back, which takes time and resources and may not be possible.



I agree, but intimidation, violence and damage to property isn't going to do this. Antifa, despite what they say their aims are, are as bad as any other "extremist" group out there. Thuggery is thuggery no matter what ideology it hides behind.

I wish the left could just stop wetting its knickers about the BNP and its ilk.

[Holden Caulfield]

I agree, but intimidation, violence and damage to property isn't going to do this. Antifa, despite what they say their aims are, are as bad as any other "extremist" group out there. Thuggery is thuggery no matter what ideology it hides behind.

I wish the left could just stop wetting its knickers about the BNP and its ilk.

It is not thuggery, it is well planned physical force used only against extremeists who wish to hurt and divide the working class, we don't beat everybody who votes BNP, we don't smash up shops of people we don't agree with, we don't carry out unjustified attacks based on prejudice.

Thuggery is not the word to use by a long chalk.

Crass are shit and non-violence/pacifism is moralist shit used to pacify the workers movement by opressive forces (the Church, the government, the rich) and is the negative basis of slavery.

The left does not "wet its knickers about the BNP and its ilk" we fear their role in halting the progression of true equality, we worry about their effects on working class unity and we will not sit ideally by while prejudices are ingrained in our communities.

[revolution inaction]

I agree, but intimidation, violence and damage to property isn't going to do this. Antifa, despite what they say their aims are, are as bad as any other "extremist" group out there. Thuggery is thuggery no matter what ideology it hides behind.


No, fascist violence and antifascist violence is not the same, when we fight them it's self defense.

Holden Caulfield and Organize! i will try to reply later, but i think you are miss interpreting what i am saying.

[Anarchyandpeace]

It is not thuggery, it is well planned physical force used only against extremeists ( By extremists ) who wish to hurt and divide the working class, we don't beat everybody who votes BNP, we don't smash up shops of people we don't agree with, we don't carry out unjustified attacks based on prejudice.

Thuggery is not the word to use by a long chalk. ( You say potato, I say potaato )

Crass are shit ( your opinion, and unlike the left I believe you are entitled to it ) and non-violence/pacifism is moralist shit used to pacify the workers movement by opressive forces (the Church, the government, the rich) and is the negative basis of slavery.

The left does not "wet its knickers about the BNP and its ilk" we fear their role in halting the progression of true equality ( Why? non entities with minimal impact on anything. Never will. People generally have more sense than you give them credit for. ) , we worry about their effects on working class unity and we will not sit ideally by while prejudices are ingrained in our communities ( Then why not offer an alternative ).

And what makes Antifa experts on the working class? Mostly made up middle class suburban rebels and dissafected students.

[Anarchyandpeace]

No, fascist violence and antifascist violence is not the same, when we fight them it's self defense.

Holden Caulfield and Organize! i will try to reply later, but i think you are miss interpreting what i am saying.

If someone attacks you first then yes, it is self defence. Twatting someone just because you dont like their opinions, isnt.

[revolution inaction]

If someone attacks you first then yes, it is self defence. Twatting someone just because you dont like their opinions, isnt.

Fascists attempt to stop working class self organization and attack anarchists and communists, and this is inherent to fascism, we know that fascists will do this in the future if the become organized even if they don't do it now. So it would be stupid to let them become organized, this is not the same as attacking inderviduels who hold fascist views at random. Waiting until the attack us before we do anything would be stupid.

[Holden Caulfield]

And what makes Antifa experts on the working class? Mostly made up middle class suburban rebels and dissafected students.

Erm no. Wrong again mon amis, Antifa is of the working class and for the working class, what makes you think you know what anybody wants, who they are or what they stand for, or are you schooled in the time honoured right wing tradition of pulling bullshit statements out of your arse?

Antifa doesn't simply beat up those we disagree with, we feel the working classes are mislead by fascism and so we aim to propagandise the faults of the far right, which goes hand in hand with stopping the far right from organising. Physical pressure (or the threat of) on those who aim to spread hatred and divide the working classes is a method proved effective by history.



Fascists attempt to stop working class self organization and attack anarchists and communists, and this is inherent to fascism, we know that fascists will do this in the future if the become organized even if they don't do it now. So it would be stupid to let them become organized, this is not the same as attacking inderviduels who hold fascist views at random. Waiting until the attack us before we do anything would be stupid.

^exactly.



Holden Caulfield and Organize! i will try to reply later, but i think you are miss interpreting what i am saying.
I dont think either of us were trying to interpret you.

[Melbourne Lefty]

No, fascist violence and antifascist violence is not the same, when we fight them it's self defense.

.

How many SWP/respect meetings have been blockaded by the BNP?

The BNP is ignoring the left, not trying to attack it.

I still think organising to stop them organising is a good idea, but it cant be the only solution, and in reality should only be a very minor part of the solution.



I agree, but intimidation, violence and damage to property isn't going to do this. Antifa, despite what they say their aims are, are as bad as any other "extremist" group out there. Thuggery is thuggery no matter what ideology it hides behind


If the Antifa were going around beating up BNP voters and bricking the windows of low level supporters homes I would agree with you.

But they are not, and probably dont have the resources to do so anyway.



The left does not "wet its knickers about the BNP and its ilk" we fear their role in halting the progression of true equality, we worry about their effects on working class unity


Damn right.

The real danger of the BNP is that they could get into a position to define the terms of the debate in racial rather than class terms, if they have done this then they have done the capitalists dirty work, uniting the working class would be almost impossible.

The BNP are like a bull in a China shop, they THINK they know where they are going, but in reality all they are doing is running around causing damage to themselves and everyone else.

[Holden Caulfield]

How many SWP/respect meetings have been blockaded by the BNP?

speak for yourselves but in Cumbria in the last year

the front door of a local left-wing anti-fascist/anti-rascist was kicked in by a BNP member who then tried to force his way in and attack the inhabitants, he was only removed by the individual and his dad. No assault charges stuck as it was his word against theirs and all he had to do was pay for the door.

the cars of 2 local anti-fascist/anti-rascist organisers were smashed up, repaired and then smashed up again a few nights later.

On the same night a Pakistani owned shop was smashed up, but with nothing taken.

local anti-fascist/anti-rascist leafletters were intimidated and assaulted by rascist skinheads (who although didnt say they were BNP claimed to be part of "XXXXX tax payers against corruption" which in my town is a proven BNP front only obviously with a different name).

This has happened only to people I know in an admittatly small county. I swear every word of it is true.


I still think organising to stop them organising is a good idea, but it cant be the only solution, and in reality should only be a very minor part of the solution.

It is, I hope I never give any impression otherwise.



But they are not, and probably dont have the resources to do so anyway.

Antifa and the wider antifascist movement's very existance got the BNP's Liverpool march called off before it even started, so I would not underestimate the resources at hand.

[Melbourne Lefty]

the front door of a local left-wing anti-fascist/anti-rascist was kicked in by a BNP member who then tried to force his way in and attack the inhabitants, he was only removed by the individual and his dad. No assault charges stuck as it was his word against theirs and all he had to do was pay for the door.

the cars of 2 local anti-fascist/anti-rascist organisers were smashed up, repaired and then smashed up again a few nights later.

On the same night a Pakistani owned shop was smashed up, but with nothing taken.

local anti-fascist/anti-rascist leafletters were intimidated and assaulted by rascist skinheads (who although didnt say they were BNP claimed to be part of "XXXXX tax payers against corruption" which in my town is a proven BNP front only obviously with a different name).

This has happened only to people I know in an admittatly small county. I swear every word of it is true.


wow!

Its amazing this sort of thing doesnt make the papers! When crap like this happens someone needs to kick up a fuss.



Antifa and the wider antifascist movement's very existance got the BNP's Liverpool march called off before it even started, so I would not underestimate the resources at hand.


The Everton v Stoke one?

That wasnt ever going to be a BNP march they were just going to get a few people out leafleting like they do in Blackburn.

You could split hairs and say that a leaflet run in the centre of Liverpool is KINDA like a march, but when you have the old NF marches to compare it to, it isnt really.

Good work by anti-fascists there though, if there had been no threat of counter protest this event would have gone ahead. And now the fans of Stoke have reason to be pissed off at the BNP.

VERY good considering the BNP votes in Stoke recently.

Shame about the Labour cocksucker jumping on the bandwagon though...