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Black Dagger
19th February 2009, 10:29
The following is some of a guest lecture i gave last year at the University of New South Wales (the topic was 'men and feminism'). There's large parts of the lecture missing - that were apart of the theme - including 'can men be feminists?' and critiques of the 'male left' - but i'm posting this specifically for the content on 'male liberation'. There was a thread on 'masculinism' earlier today which i moved to the OI forum from here in discrimination.

This was help explain my reasoning:


"...

There are four main 'male responses' to feminism:

Anti-feminist
Apathetic
Pro-Feminist
Male Liberationist

The anti-feminist response is quite simple, and usually takes the form of sexism or an otherwise patriarchal attitude – however some anti-feminist men move beyond this kind of crass sexism into more elaborate but nevertheless anti-feminist discourse, such as ‘male rights’ or ‘male liberation’ – which I will come back to in a bit.

The apathetic men are those who response to feminism is quite muted – neither seeing feminism as an attack on men, and so leaping to their defence – such as with anti-feminist – nor embracing the feminist critique. Pro-feminists, or sometimes ‘male feminists’ – are men who embrace a feminist critique and support and often participate in the struggle for women’s liberation. The last and probably most fuzzy category is ‘male liberationist’. I say fuzzy because although some men who position themselves as ‘male liberationists’ do so as a backlash against feminism – ‘why should only women be liberated?’ etc. other ‘male liberationists’ at least in writing seem sympathetic or even positive to a feminist outlook. In practice I will argue, male-lib is always antagonistic to feminism.

Before we get into male lib itself, I’d like to an analyse the idea that underlies it – that men are an oppressed sex.


What does that mean?

Men as an oppressed sex is the idea that men too are oppressed by sexism – now a quibble here – what does it mean to be ‘oppressed’? In terms of male oppression, the argument is generally that...as a result of the gender binary and the gendered roles that stem from this – restrictive conceptions of ‘masculinity’ etc. men are like the lion with a splinter in its paw. 'We’re not as bad as we seem, we’re just in pain'. There was another analogy I was gonna use here, involving an overseer – like a slave driver, who hurt his back from all that whipping – but I dunno – that seemed a bit dramatic. But you get my point? This sort of paraodoxical notion that men are oppressed by their own role as oppressors is evident in Bourdieu – although he is certainly not a male liberationist:

1st sentence p. 49:
'If women,, subjected to a labour of socialization which tends to diminish and deny them, learn the negative virtues of self-denial, resignation and silence, men are also prisoners, and insidiously victims, of the dominant representation. Like the dispositions toward submission, those which underlie the pursuit and exercise of domination are not inscribed in nature, and they have to be learned through a long labour of socialization,....'

p. 50 'Male privilege is also a trap, and it has its negative side in the permanent tension and contention, sometimes verging on the absurd, imposed on every man by the duty to assert his manliness in all circumstances....Manliness, [p. 51] understood as sexual or social reproductive capacity, but also as the capacity to fight and to exercise violence (especially in acts of revenge), is first and foremost a duty.

I agree with Bordieu in the sense that – yes- masculinity and the way it is socially and culturally constituted is restrictive – men are socialized into asserting violence and manliness but is that oppression? Who is the oppressor? Other men? Certainly in the case of queer men conceptions of masculinity and the corresponding inferiority of perceived femininity does lead to very real oppression – homophobia and sexism are arguably two sides of the same coin – thus ‘manliness’ as it is constructed is in many ways explicitly homophobic. So homophobia or the ‘fear of the feminie’ that borideu talks about is used in male socialization as a whip to keep men behaving like men. But does this make particularly, hetero guys – oppressed as men? Well a male liberationist, would say yes of course and argue:

“Just as women, men are expected to fill different roles in society. Men are the ones that are expected to provide for the family, are expected to protect the family, be the head of the family... etc”

Okay, but in a patriarchal society the role of women is to be subordinate to men, so are the ‘roles’ or expectations put on men really a good basis for a ‘liberation’ movement? What is its goal? I think feminists are right to be suspicious of ‘male liberation’ it does seem awfully like an ‘oppressor support group’ rather than a liberation movement.

Basically, using (hijacking?) feminist analysis of gender and masculinity these men are making the point that ‘hey, you guys have shown how sexism can be a double-edged sword for men, and you’ve got the liberation of women covered –so we’ll take on the mantle for the guys.’


The problem as I see it is that ‘male liberation’ is not really about liberating anyone. Yes men are fucked up by sexism, and by masculinity but male liberation seems more orientated towards ‘fixing’ or perfecting male privilege than liberating anyone – hardly suprising in a movement almost exclusively white hetero middle class men – the issues of race, sexuality or class that effect most men are completely ignored.
It really seems more of a revolutionary reconceptualisation of the patriarch – the enlightened or sensisitve patriarch. To make the position of certain men more comfortable, to iron out the wrinkles in male privilege, the unpleasant blowback. This is a point that I thought was made excellently in your course work for this week – about the focus of male liberation. Or lack of focus.

To parapharase carol elhrich, ‘male liberationists rarely look beyond the scope of an individual mans navel’.

And from what I can glean from reading about the male lib movement this seems quite apt – where as feminism is really for everybody male lib uses some of the language of feminism to justify rehabitaling instead of abolishing gender – after all hetero men are not oppressed by gender roles as much as they are restricted by them. In that sense I think male lib is antagonistic to feminism, especially feminisms which deconstruct gender. After all, feminism (esp. revolutionary feminism) advocates the total liberation of everyone. Feminism is not suggesting that women are better than men, or that women should be treated better and men worse - but that women should not be discriminated, oppressed, mistreated on the basis of their sex. That the gender binary and gender roles are restrictive – that masculinity and feminity are not natural states of being but socially constructed. In other words, feminism is all men need to be free, at least as far as sexism is concerned.

'Male oppression' (like 'reverse racism') is a rarity because the structures of society, our social values and 'culture', religions etc. are largely geared to serves the interests of men vis-à-vis patriarchy contributing to the oppression of women. Men experience no such structural discrimination or oppression as men. Anti-male attitudes are not common place in government or with the people in positions of authority, power or control – all of whom are predominantly men, nor in the media, religion, social cultures etc . There is no structural oppression of men as men. In light of this, to plea 'male oppression' in a society where women are so violently oppressed at best borders on the absurd, and at its worst is a misguided and anti-feminist diversion from the stuff that the real oppression of patriarchy.

...


Thoughts?

Plagueround
19th February 2009, 11:41
Great post. I've been trying to articulate my feelings on the matter lately, because I definitely feel trapped by the expectation to follow "MACHO MANLY MAN " roles and behaviors, but I've had trouble figuring out how to express this, because I feel the "well, men are oppressed too!" mentality is troublesome for the reasons you listed.

I think this especially is great:


In that sense I think male lib is antagonistic to feminism, especially feminisms which deconstruct gender. After all, feminism (esp. revolutionary feminism) advocates the total liberation of everyone. Feminism is not suggesting that women are better than men, or that women should be treated better and men worse - but that women should not be discriminated, oppressed, mistreated on the basis of their sex. That the gender binary and gender roles are restrictive – that masculinity and feminity are not natural states of being but socially constructed. In other words, feminism is all men need to be free, at least as far as sexism is concerned.

Killfacer
19th February 2009, 12:34
Excellent post, very interesting.

Elect Marx
19th February 2009, 13:19
'Male oppression' (like 'reverse racism') is a rarity because the structures of society, our social values and 'culture', religions etc. are largely geared to serves the interests of men vis-à-vis patriarchy contributing to the oppression of women. Men experience no such structural discrimination or oppression as men. Anti-male attitudes are not common place in government or with the people in positions of authority, power or control – all of whom are predominantly men, nor in the media, religion, social cultures etc . There is no structural oppression of men as men. In light of this, to plea 'male oppression' in a society where women are so violently oppressed at best borders on the absurd, and at its worst is a misguided and anti-feminist diversion from the stuff that the real oppression of patriarchy.

...


Thoughts?

Fantastic work. I may have some semantic disagreement with you, but I appreciate all the points you make. Personally, I don't know anyone that identifies as a Male Liberationist, but I understand your sentiments. You seem to be describing the movement at large as gender role reformism. I certainly don't feel oppressed "as a man," though as I see it, unjustifiable gender expectations exist for everyone. I would like to challenge you with some questions:

Where does oppression end and imposition of gender roles begin?

Were does structural discrimination end and personal distaste begin?

What are "the interests" of men?

Also; how do you see Male Liberationists, as being opposed to gender deconstruction? Could you give and example?

An obvious reactionary response would be (sorry if I'm stealing anyone's thunder here) "you are putting women's sexual liberation above men." Depending on your audience, you might want to wack this mole before he pops up. I would say including the point of this not being a pissing contest would help.

Lynx
19th February 2009, 14:51
There was another analogy I was gonna use here, involving an overseer – like a slave driver, who hurt his back from all that whipping – but I dunno – that seemed a bit dramatic. But you get my point?
Yes, your point is that analogies can be used to create straw men, or rather, whipping boys.

I agree with Bordieu in the sense that – yes- masculinity and the way it is socially and culturally constituted is restrictive – men are socialized into asserting violence and manliness but is that oppression? Who is the oppressor? Other men?
Yes, other men, as commonly found in society. One is conditioned and restricted by the society one lives in. For males, a primary source for that conditioning is the male gender role or role model.

Okay, but in a patriarchal society the role of women is to be subordinate to men, so are the ‘roles’ or expectations put on men really a good basis for a ‘liberation’ movement?
It is necessarily a basis, for that is a coat men must shed.

What is its goal? I think feminists are right to be suspicious of ‘male liberation’ it does seem awfully like an ‘oppressor support group’ rather than a liberation movement
To learn the goals of a movement you only need listen to them. Much of the men's movement consists of defensiveness or the blaming of their problems on women or feminists. Quite sad, really, but not unexpected.
Naturally, if you listen to what male supremacists are saying you will receive a reactionary message. The same might be true if you listen to female supremacists. Would you dismiss feminism because it happens to include extremist points of view?
Sadly, some men have dismissed the feminist movement because of the rhetoric produced by a minority of its proponents. Other men have not dismissed feminism, but still feel defensive, and may be seeking an alternative venue for discussion. For these men I see hope.

Basically, using (hijacking?) feminist analysis of gender and masculinity these men are making the point that ‘hey, you guys have shown how sexism can be a double-edged sword for men, and you’ve got the liberation of women covered –so we’ll take on the mantle for the guys.’
Inspired by the feminist movement, some men have realized they need to examine their role in society. It is something men must arrive at for themselves, whether as part of a group, or individually. This process, if genuine, would have little to do with women. From a practical standpoint, changing one's self usually comes before taking up the goal of changing society.

After all, feminism (esp. revolutionary feminism) advocates the total liberation of everyone. Feminism is not suggesting that women are better than men, or that women should be treated better and men worse - but that women should not be discriminated, oppressed, mistreated on the basis of their sex. That the gender binary and gender roles are restrictive – that masculinity and feminity are not natural states of being but socially constructed. In other words, feminism is all men need to be free, at least as far as sexism is concerned.
I agree. I also don't consider myself a feminist. Reading and discussing these issues may help me liberate myself from the roles I feel I'm expected to play. I don't deny that I'm doing this for myself.
I don't feel the need to identify with a group. What would it change within me, other than add another label?

'Male oppression' (like 'reverse racism') is a rarity because the structures of society, our social values and 'culture', religions etc. are largely geared to serves the interests of men vis-à-vis patriarchy contributing to the oppression of women. Men experience no such structural discrimination or oppression as men. Anti-male attitudes are not common place in government or with the people in positions of authority, power or control – all of whom are predominantly men, nor in the media, religion, social cultures etc . There is no structural oppression of men as men. In light of this, to plea 'male oppression' in a society where women are so violently oppressed at best borders on the absurd, and at its worst is a misguided and anti-feminist diversion from the stuff that the real oppression of patriarchy.
Man shows up at a police station, says he was raped. Rare, yes. Is society structured to handle his needs as a victim? If not, why not?
Dismissal and belittling of men's concerns does not bode well for discussion. If, as a feminist, you believe men deserve a metaphorical whack on the side of the head with a 2 x 4 for thinking this way, don't expect them to ever want to join the feminist movement. They will, most likely, join another group or work on their questions and fears alone.

Louise Michel
23rd February 2009, 01:49
Very complex issue and I'm not familiar with the Men's Lib Movement. Under capitalism everybodys sexuality is distorted - just think of those aristocrats swinging from a rope by the neck in order to get a thrill. Marx and others have made the point that until our work, our labor, becomes a source of fulfillment rather than oppression and necessity we will never become fully developed human beings. I believe our socially constructed gender roles cannot be destroyed until we reconstruct society in a form that gives everyone respect and dignity - ie a collectivised society in which we all contribute and receive according to our unique abilities and needs.

One of the problems with feminism historically has been its refusal to acknowledge the role that men have in liberating women - ie joining together, both sexes, to remove the society that oppresses both. The real division in society is class - a working class woman has far more in common with a working class man than with a rich woman. Just ask any millionaire woman how close she feels to her (almost always female) cleaner.

Although I suppose not many of us know any millionaires :D

JohnnyC
23rd February 2009, 04:10
I don't consider male liberation to be a "male response" to feminism I consider it a human response to injustice, same as female liberation.I think BD mix does who are against injustice in general, and those who are just hidden sexists.



Okay, but in a patriarchal society the role of women is to be subordinate to men, so are the ‘roles’ or expectations put on men really a good basis for a ‘liberation’ movement? What is its goal?

For me, male liberation is not something separated from female one but something that goes together with it because it has the same goal.That is destroying gender roles and discrimination based on it.



The problem as I see it is that ‘male liberation’ is not really about liberating anyone. Yes men are fucked up by sexism, and by masculinity

If you consider that males are affected by sexism and are against it (as I presume) than by my definition you are also a male liberationist.



but male liberation seems more orientated towards ‘fixing’ or perfecting male privilege than liberating anyone

This is where I think you are confusing male liberation with hidden sexism.Male and Female liberation should have the same goal, to abolish gender roles.If you are male liberationist than you also must be feminist.



Feminism is not suggesting that women are better than men, or that women should be treated better and men worse - but that women should not be discriminated, oppressed, mistreated on the basis of their sex. That the gender binary and gender roles are restrictive – that masculinity and feminity are not natural states of being but socially constructed. In other words, feminism is all men need to be free, at least as far as sexism is concerned.


This is exactly what I'm fighting for and therefore why I'm both feminist and a male liberationist.

Here is what wiki say about male lib.

"Men's liberation is a stream of the modern men's movement. It holds that men are hurt by the male gender role and patriarchy and that men's lives are , alienating unhealthy and impoverished."

Let me just ask you, if you are fighting against patriarchy don't that also make you a feminist?

To conclude, I completely agree with everything Black Dagger said, only thing that bothers me is that he uses the word male liberationist where he should use the word sexist, that's all.

Module
23rd February 2009, 04:43
Man shows up at a police station, says he was raped. Rare, yes. Is society structured to handle his needs as a victim? If not, why not?Because the social structure places men in a superior position, where their aggression is supported by social culture geared in their favour.

Dismissal and belittling of men's concerns does not bode well for discussion. If, as a feminist, you believe men deserve a metaphorical whack on the side of the head with a 2 x 4 for thinking this way, don't expect them to ever want to join the feminist movement. They will, most likely, join another group or work on their questions and fears alone.So should we, then, listen to white people who perhaps bring up the fact if they were beaten up by a black person for being white that they wouldn't get taken as seriously? There's an obvious reason why white people's experiences of perhaps racially motivated assaults, and men's experiences of rape would not be taken as an issue to focus on by feminist or anti-racist groups. Would you disagree?
The vast majority of rapes are suffered by women, and the vast majority of rapes aren't even reported to the police. When they are reported most of them don't result in a conviction.. I could go on and on about how dwarfed men's experiences, as men, with rape are in comparison to women. If men do think that they are actually disadvantaged by society's attitudes to rape then I would dismiss them, in the same way I would dismiss a white person claiming to be disadvantaged by racism. I actually think any feminist who knows what they're talking about would. It is to be expected that chauvinistic attitudes don't mesh well with feminism. Why should anybody alter their message of equality to make a few pricks feel better?

Elect Marx
23rd February 2009, 05:59
I could go on and on about how dwarfed men's experiences, as men, with rape are in comparison to women. If men do think that they are actually disadvantaged by society's attitudes to rape then I would dismiss them, in the same way I would dismiss a white person claiming to be disadvantaged by racism. I actually think any feminist who knows what they're talking about would. It is to be expected that chauvinistic attitudes don't mesh well with feminism. Why should anybody alter their message of equality to make a few pricks feel better?

You make a good point here, however, I would say that men face slightly different prejudices when sexually assaulted. Perhaps it is simply your phrasing that I disagree with, but men ARE disadvantaged by "society's attitudes" toward rape. Just because women may face worse odds (I don't know the stats), that doesn't mean male victims don't have their own problems. The victimization men may face is often a facet of patriarchy and so, men can be victims as well. In a society with strong gender roles, men suffer in such instances.

Look at your measure here. Racism is socially disadvantageous for all people involved. Certainly white people have more privilege, but the racism coursing through our societies cheats us all out of valuable relationships and opportunities. I am not just talking about socioeconomics here, because I would say we do a disservice by limiting the discussion to those terms.

I don't know what people see in me as when they look at me, but regardless of it being a commonality or difference between us, we all lose out in prejudices. Some of us may have a better standard of living, especially if we embrace the status quo in our lives. Solidarity to me, as an ally, is recognizing the social poverty that these divides between us create. I cannot appreciate the richness of a person if our relationship is constrained. Even if I excel and another fails due to discrimination, we have both been cheated out of the opportunity to know one-another. When someone approaches me and wishes to bond over being white, being male or being heterosexual, we have mutually wasted the chance to make a meaningful connection.

I'm sorry that this post seems to be a bit scattered, as I am staying up too late. To bring this back around, my point is that addressing how men are injured in this system has value. The only way to create understanding and support here, is to recognize this as a human issue. Women are victimized more, and that must be understood in context. There is an important reason why that is the case and is in fact why we call this a feminist movement.

Lynx
23rd February 2009, 07:27
Because the social structure places men in a superior position, where their aggression is supported by social culture geared in their favour.
Meaning what? That patriarchal society is somehow unable to recognize males as being victims of violence?

So should we, then, listen to white people who perhaps bring up the fact if they were beaten up by a black person for being white that they wouldn't get taken as seriously?
Hate crime is supposed to be taken seriously, even if the victim is white.

There's an obvious reason why white people's experiences of perhaps racially motivated assaults, and men's experiences of rape would not be taken as an issue to focus on by feminist or anti-racist groups. Would you disagree?
If you are referring to the setting of priorities as the reason, then no. I would not disagree.

The vast majority of rapes are suffered by women, and the vast majority of rapes aren't even reported to the police. When they are reported most of them don't result in a conviction.. I could go on and on about how dwarfed men's experiences, as men, with rape are in comparison to women. If men do think that they are actually disadvantaged by society's attitudes to rape then I would dismiss them, in the same way I would dismiss a white person claiming to be disadvantaged by racism.
The law doesn't dismiss male rape victims or white hate crime victims - they are entitled to the same protection. When practice falls short of theory, victims rights have to be publicized and politicized before they are taken seriously. Once laws are passed, a struggle for recognition and funding begins.

I actually think any feminist who knows what they're talking about would. It is to be expected that chauvinistic attitudes don't mesh well with feminism. Why should anybody alter their message of equality to make a few pricks feel better?
What's wrong with this message:


Feminism is not suggesting that women are better than men, or that women should be treated better and men worse - but that women should not be discriminated, oppressed, mistreated on the basis of their sex. That the gender binary and gender roles are restrictive – that masculinity and feminity are not natural states of being but socially constructed. In other words, feminism is all men need to be free, at least as far as sexism is concerned.
Feminism can either address men's concerns or advocacy groups can go elsewhere. For example, malesurvivor.org is a group formed by mental health providers and professionals (and victims~survivors).

diome
23rd February 2009, 14:34
I've been following the ongoing discussion on feminism and men's rights in Finland. There are a lot of anti-feminist men I'm really fed up with - together with many others. Though of course there are a lot of differently thinking feminists. Some have indeed said that women are better than men, etc.

I think too, that the ideal model of masculinity is very limiting and causes discrimination in form of several kinds of abuse. So is also the case with the ideal model of femininity, but women have a wider variety of acceptable behavior. At least within an agrarian & working class culture.

A sensitive, nice boy is teased at school. Parents tell him to stand up and fight back, but he doesn't want to fight. He's seen so much violence at home, growing up with a wife-beating father. That's a real life example of how men become the victims of patriarchy/normative masculinity (whichever people like to call it).

That some women think the kitchen is their area, into which men have no business, or that some women consider themselves to be the ultimate best caretakers of children, has nothing to do with feminism. Instead, it has everything to do with normative gender roles and conservatist values. To me it seems modern feminism is fighting these issues, and doing so helping a lot of men too.

Louise Michel
24th February 2009, 02:24
And from what I can glean from reading about the male lib movement this seems quite apt – where as feminism is really for everybody male lib uses some of the language of feminism to justify rehabitaling instead of abolishing gender – after all hetero men are not oppressed by gender roles as much as they are restricted by them. In that sense I think male lib is antagonistic to feminism, especially feminisms which deconstruct gender. After all, feminism (esp. revolutionary feminism) advocates the total liberation of everyone. Feminism is not suggesting that women are better than men, or that women should be treated better and men worse - but that women should not be discriminated, oppressed, mistreated on the basis of their sex. That the gender binary and gender roles are restrictive – that masculinity and feminity are not natural states of being but socially constructed. In other words, feminism is all men need to be free, at least as far as sexism is concerned.



Well, I'm not so sure that men can become free of sexism by embracing the ideas of feminism. Way back in 1871 women fought on the barricades of the Paris Commune alongside men. These were women who previously had probably never been involved in political/social struggle. It seems to me that a common fight (male and female) against the class enemy (male and female) is the only cure for the view that women are inferior. Louise Michel (not me!), Rosa Luxembourg, Clara Zetkin, Emma Goldmann and many others - these women's contributions to the history of the fight for human freedom are the the most powerful testimony against sexism.