Disturbing Hamas childrens TV show.

[SocialRealist]

I thought I would post this for you all. I was browsing around Youtube a bit and stumbled across some very disturbing Hamas TV shows targeted to children. From what I have noticed it seems that these are to brainwash and lead these children to become future martyrs in the name of Islam. To be honest with you Revleft, I have never felt sick to my stomach like I have now after seeing this.

It is sad how you can take an innocent child and indoctrinate him into a certain set of beliefs whilst using the child as a political pawn.

Well here we go...

Children in this are shown to submit poems and little peices of music with violent imagery in it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4

The main character in this video clip is shown to fling around cats by their tails and throw stones at lions in the Gaza Zoo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ExZVimjST8

We see in this one that the rabbit wants to eat the jews, it is directly quoted from him.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm8w7_P8wZ0

What can I say about these video clips in all honesty? I can say deep down inside that I feel horrible for these children that are being exploited as political pawns by the Hamas.

Revleft, how do you feel about this?

[Robespierre2.0]

I'm sure it comes off as weird to American eyes, but I don't think you're paying enough attention to the context. The Palestinians live under siege, at war with an enemy which threatens to wipe them out. They are used to the sight of death, as everyone, regardless of their age, is subject to the violence.

As for the 'jew' thing- Yeah, Hamas and Hizbollah buy into crazy conspiracy theories about jewish bankers, but what would you think if you were in their position? If there's a powerful ethnocentic state which is bullying you, and the rest of the world, who claim to be democratic, turn a blind eye, wouldn't the first thing that you assume would be that the 'race' that is oppressing you is controlling everyone else as puppets? Most Palestinians don't have the privilege of reading Marx and finding out what really is going on.

[SocialRealist]

I'm sure it comes off as weird to American eyes, but I don't think you're paying enough attention to the context. The Palestinians live under siege, at war with an enemy which threatens to wipe them out. They are used to the sight of death, as everyone, regardless of their age, is subject to the violence.

As for the 'jew' thing- Yeah, Hamas and Hizbollah buy into crazy conspiracy theories about jewish bankers, but what would you think if you were in their position? If there's a powerful ethnocentic state which is bullying you, and the rest of the world, who claim to be democratic, turn a blind eye, wouldn't the first thing that you assume would be that the 'race' that is oppressing you is controlling everyone else as puppets? Most Palestinians don't have the privilege of reading Marx and finding out what really is going on.
The main problem I have here is how these children are being used a political pawns. I don't think it is fine that these children are being exploited in this way at all.

The other thing I have to say is that does this not draw similarities between white nationalist propaganda? This is what I immediately thought of when I saw this.

Onto that, the worse thing in this would have to be the animal abuse, it was cruel. Let me ask you a question though...

Why is it that we strike down the Christian right each time they make a move but when an international theocratic movement begins to make a move we do literally nothing due to the fact of the places location?

[L.J.Solidarity]

According to Wikipedia, the bunny was "martyred" by bombs dropped on Gaza in a rare new episode in January, not before revealing that a tiger will be next in the row of crazy, fundamentalist, reactionary wannabe-martyr anthropomorphic animals.
I personally find the programme rather funny, as I don't think it is necessary or possible for Hamas (or any other party in the conflict) to incite more hatred than there already is, so the TV show's existence doesn't really matter.
By the way, does anybody now North Korean Children's TV, or something from Turkmenbashi-era Turkmenistan? (preferably with subtitles, also I guess the images without the words might be hilarious enough)

[Raúl Duke]

I heard, not sure if it's true, but that the sub-titling for this stuff was done by Israel and that it skewed what was said to make it sound...well crazy.

[Qayin]

Fucking hamas

i hate both sides honestly
I side with hamas more over the IDF though.

[Bitter Ashes]

Good grief! :O
That was horrendous! :(

[Cumannach]

Not half as disturbing as Israeli or American TV teaching their kids genocide is a neccesary tool of self defense against dirty arabs and actually following through with it. How many kids like this were slaughtered just a few weeks ago their flesh burnt through with phosphorous.

[NecroCommie]

Support the resistance!

[#FF0000]

Support the resistance!

Cool story bro.

In any case, it isn't all that surprising. Whether it's "wrong" or not is one thing, but really I'm not shocked or surprised at all given the context.

[John Lenin]

Not any different than GI Joe who "massacres" the 3rd world enemies.

Put "Planet of the Arabs" into Youtube ... for the flip side.

[welshboy]

IIt's hardly surprising, Hamas are fascists, if there had been mass media like TV in the 30's the NSDP would have had something similar.
The crazy conspiracy that Hamas peddle is the exact same one that is peddled by other anti-semitic fascist parties, that of the elders of zion.
Hamas are fucking scum.

[UndergroundConnexion]

and then I wonder also , if any of y'all bothered to figure out the translations. Often it happens that the subtitles are (for a purpose) wrongly translated...

[Lynx]

Propaganda and indoctrination should not come as a surprise - its the norm around the world!

[Killfacer]

I heard, not sure if it's true, but that the sub-titling for this stuff was done by Israel and that it skewed what was said to make it sound...well crazy.

What bullshit.

[Killfacer]

Not half as disturbing as Israeli or American TV teaching their kids genocide is a neccesary tool of self defense against dirty arabs and actually following through with it. How many kids like this were slaughtered just a few weeks ago their flesh burnt through with phosphorous.

How is that relevant? Whenever someone criticizes hamas all it's supporters say is "well it's not as bad as". It's still pretty shit.

[Raúl Duke]

What bullshit.

I only said that I heard it...not sure if it's true or not
Just mentioned it just in case...
The best way for us to know is to have someone on revleft who knows arabic tell us if the subtitles are correct. Although, not sure if that would actually get us towards an accurate picture either since some here seem quite adamant to protect any/every anti-imperialist group from all criticism even that which they deserve.

[welshboy]

The thing about Israeli agencies altering the sub-titles could easily be true. Occams razor though suggests that they would have no need to as hamas are bat shit mental fascists.

[BobKKKindle$]

What bullshit. The fact that you automatically and rudely disregard the possibility that the Israeli government might have twisted the television program and made up anti-semitic subtitles in order to further its own geopolitical agenda and undermine the legitimacy of an anti-imperialist movements says a lot about your political sympathies, and in particular your attitude towards peoples fighting against colonial oppression. The truth is that Israel has a proven record of lying - during the most recent conflict in Gaza, Israel repeatedly asserted that they had chose to bombard a school because it was being used as a base to launch rocket attacks by Hamas militants, but subsequently, following demands for evidence issued by the UN, an IDF spokesperson admitted that Israel had been lying all along, and the school had never been used as a base - link (http://www.un.org/unrwa/news/statements/gaza_crisis/chris_gaza_crisis.html). The BBC did not cover this admission, and this is but one example of Israel making false assertions to hide the truth. In this context, there is every reason to believe that the headlines were fabricated, especially given that the videos have been put together by a Zionist organization (Palestinian Media Watch) existing solely to portray Palestinian media broadcasts as being extremist. This is not to say that Hamas is incapable of being anti-semitic, but there is certainly no reason to accept the propaganda of a colonial power, and even if the allegations could be proven, it would be no reason to drop our support for the Palestinian struggle for liberation. The apologists for Zionism in this thread display all the classical signs of someone who inhabits an imperialist state and accepts all of the values of orientalism in the way they view the struggles of colonized peoples - describing Hamas as "fascist" shows a complete lack of class analysis or awareness of the situation on the ground. If Hamas is a "fascist" organization, we can only assume that anarchists would support an Israeli incursion designed to wipe out Hamas and replace it with a more moderate (i.e. pro-Zionist) regime, given that anarchists also gave enthusiastic support to the Allies during WW2.


Occams razor though suggests that they would have no need to as hamas are bat shit mental fascists. Only a total lack of logic, combined with incredible ignorance, could lead to this conclusion. If someone with a proven track record of lying makes an assertion - for example, a Holocaust denier arguing that Jewish people use the blood of Christian children as ointment, as was once widely believed - then the first reaction of any sensible and progressive person would be to disregard the assertion until sound proof has been given. It seems that this logic cannot apply to Israel, because Hamas are, according to a bunch of first-world anarchists, "fascists".

[Devrim]

Of course Israel tells lies. Of course there are sections of the Arab media which are anti-Semitic. Neither of these things should surprise us.

Devrim

[Devrim]

If Hamas is a "fascist" organization, we can only assume that anarchists would support an Israeli incursion designed to wipe out Hamas and replace it with a more moderate (i.e. pro-Zionist) regime, given that anarchists also gave enthusiastic support to the Allies during WW2.

Not all anarchists did though you are right that some did along with the Trotskyists and their so-called 'proletarian military policy'.

Devrim

[KC]

Not all anarchists did though you are right that some did along with the Trotskyists and their so-called 'proletarian military policy'.

NOTE: with some Trotskyists.

[Wanted Man]

Not any different than GI Joe who "massacres" the 3rd world enemies.

Put "Planet of the Arabs" into Youtube ... for the flip side.
Now now comrade, let's not interrupt the two minutes of hate against those weird ay-rabs.

[Devrim]

NOTE: with some Trotskyists.

Really, I have never heard about this. Which were the Trotskyist groups (not including those around Stirnas or Munis or others which broke with Trotskyism over it)?

Devrim

[BobKKKindle$]

Admittedly, Tony Cliff adopted a defencist position during the war, because he had not yet adopted the state-capitalist analysis of the USSR, and still viewed it as a workers state, albeit bureaucratically degenerated. However, a section of the Trotskyist movement in China abandoned their support for the liberation struggle against the Japanese invasion (but still identified as Trotskyists) once Japan and the United States went to war, as this event was seen to transform the war into a conflict between rival imperialist powers, partly conducted by proxy, instead of being a national liberation struggle. This is mentioned briefly in Duncan Hallas' article entitled 'Wars within Wars' and covered in greater depth in 'China's Urban Revolutionaries' by Gregor Benton.

[Leo]

However, a section of the Trotskyist movement in China abandoned their support for the liberation struggle against the Japanese invasion

Yes, Zheng Chaolin's group, the one that ended up saying Lenin was wrong on the question of national liberation and Luxemburg was right. They would be in the same category with Munis, Stinas and others.


once Japan and the United States went to war, as this event was seen to transform the war into a conflict between rival imperialist powers, partly conducted by proxy.

This is untrue. Zheng Chaolin's group was the only one that opposed the war and they opposed it from the beginning.

[Devrim]

However, a section of the Trotskyist movement in China abandoned their support for the liberation struggle against the Japanese invasion (but still identified as Trotskyists) once Japan and the United States went to war, as this event was seen to transform the war into a conflict between rival imperialist powers, partly conducted by proxy, instead of being a national liberation struggle. This is mentioned briefly in Duncan Hallas' article entitled 'Wars within Wars' and covered in greater depth in 'China's Urban Revolutionaries' by Gregor Benton.

Whilst if this is true, it is to their credit as opposed to the rest of the Trotskyist movement which lined up with the imperialists.

I would like to check this with Leo though. He is our expert on these sort of things, and knows a reasonable amount about communist groups in China that opposed the war.

Devrim

Edit: There he is in before me.

[punisa]

This is not strange for a war zone. If you ever had a chance to live in an occupied territory you probabbly witnessed that all propaganda is directed against the "enemy". Children's shows also.
When I was a kid in Yugoslavia, during the war radio and the tv was full of very violent imagery.
I remember audio cassettes without label that were mass produced and contained nationalist-fascist-battle songs, some even included such "poetry" as: "take the enemy's guts out and kill his family".

So yeah.. war and peace comrades - two different worlds indeed.

[UndergroundConnexion]

It is not neceserraily 'Israeli Agencies ' purposely inserting wrong subtitles, it can just as well be some zionist group abroad (like that memri thing). It the past this has hapenned quite some often. For example Norman Finkelstein videos have been presented in such a way to make him look like a holocaust denier.

[JimmyJazz]

_ExZVimjST8

:laugh:


Revleft, how do you feel about this?

:lol::lol:

[JimmyJazz]

If someone with a proven track record of lying makes an assertion - for example, a Holocaust denier arguing that Jewish people use the blood of Christian children as ointment, as was one widely believed - then the first reaction of any sensible and progressive person would be to disregard the assertion until sound proof has been given. It seems that this logic cannot apply to Israel, because Hamas are, according to a bunch of first-world anarchists, "fascists".

So if an Israeli official denies that there is a worldwide conspiracy of Jewish bankers, sensible progressives should assume he's lying? :confused:

Sorry Bob, but he's right about Occam's Razor.

And you're both wrong in trying to "logic" this out. It's simply stupid to sit around vehemently arguing one way or the other about the subtitles being altered when it is an empirical question.

Sensible options would be to: do some internet background research on Palestinian Media Watch, post these in an Arab-speaking chatroom and ask for translations, or remain agnostic about the truthfulness of the subtitles. Agnosticism is a profoundly underrated mental stance.

[BobKKKindle$]

So if an Israeli official denies that there is a worldwide conspiracy of Jewish bankers, sensible progressives should assume he's lyingThat is clearly different from the current issue at hand. In the case currently under discussion, we have been presented with a set of cartoons which contain antisemitic subtitles, and we know that these cartoons have been published with the subtitles added by an organization that seeks to expose the media broadcasts of the Palestinian movement as being extremist and violent in order to enhance the legitimacy of the Israeli state, and support the oppression of the Palestinian people - contrary to what you suggest, the background of PMW is readily obtainable and speaks for itself. The claim is that these cartoons demonstrate the antisemitism of the liberation movement, and Hamas in particular. We know, in connection with this, that the Israeli state, and the organizations which support and associate themselves with it, lie on a regular basis, and generally cannot be trusted. Faced with this situation, and given that we have absolutely no way to determine whether the subtitles are an accurate representation of what is actually being said and conveyed, until they have been checked by people who can speak Arabic, our first instinct should be skepticism towards the claims. This is not the same as saying that the subtitles are definitely inaccurate (the majority of people in this thread have actually assumed that they are accurate) but maintaining a rigidly neutral position (or being "agnostic" as you call it) would be dishonest. In the imaginary scenario that you've presented, the relevant information is much less limited, as we have plenty of evidence to show that no such conspiracy exists, and so we have no reason to rely solely on the track record of Israel when deciding how we should respond - as we have been forced to do in this instance.

On the subject of Occam's razor, the central idea behind this concept is that, all other things being equal, a simpler theory is preferable to a more complex theory. In these circumstances, this condition - all other things being equal - is problematic, because there is no evidence behind the "theory" (i.e. there is no evidence to show that the subtitles are genuine) and so it is not scientific in any sense of the world, and the source of the "theory" is suspect. These points have been made above, but it's important to emphasize that you can't use an idea like Occam's razor in this instance, and in general, when questions of reliability and political agenda have a role to play.

Incidentally, so as to avoid confusion, the organization termed Palestinian Media Watch (link (http://www.pmw.org.il/)) is pro-Zionist, whereas the organization termed Palestine Media Watch (link (http://www.pmwatch.org/pmw/mediocrity/editcalls.asp)) seeks to expose pro-Israel bias in the mainstream media.

[JimmyJazz]

That is clearly different from the current issue at hand.

For sure. I'm just addressing the principle, because you can assume someone is telling the truth if they always have before, but you can't assume something is untrue just because a less than reliable source said it. All liars tell the truth sometimes.

As far as the specific case at hand, I more or less expect that the translations are sensationalized, although I would be very surprised if they are outright false translations. I would just take the position that Mantis and others have, that these things are kind of inevitable under a brutal occupation.


Incidentally, so as to avoid confusion, the organization termed Palestinian Media Watch (link (http://www.pmw.org.il/)) is pro-Zionist

Yeah, they are terrible, I looked 'em up too. I spent a while trying to find an Arabic/English chat room, DB or irc channel where I could ask about the subtitling of the videos, but with no success.

[Devrim]

and we know that these cartoons have been published with the subtitles added by an organization that seeks to expose the media broadcasts of the Palestinian movement as being extremist and violent in order to enhance the legitimacy of the Israeli state,

Well actually, we don't know. What the poster commenting on it said was:


I heard, not sure if it's true, but that the sub-titling for this stuff was done by Israel and that it skewed what was said to make it sound...well crazy.


until they have been checked by people who can speak Arabic,

I am an Arabic speaker. I can't check them at the moment as I have a problem with YouTube*.


our first instinct should be skepticism towards the claims.

My instinct is to believe they are anti-Semitic. As I said I haven't seen these clips, but know from experience of watching Arabic TV that you wouldn't have to look far to find crazy anti-Semitic stuff. It is not exactly difficult to find. Why would somebody bother to 'mistranslate' it?


and so we have no reason to rely solely on the track record of Israel when deciding how we should respond - as we have been forced to do in this instance.

And the track record of the Arabic media on anti-Semitism.

Devrim

*YouTube is banned in Turkey, so those extracts come up with a court statement on them through my browser. This is something that can be got around. At the moment I am having a problem with the new flash player though.

[welshboy]

On the subject of Occam's razor, the central idea behind this concept is that, all other things being equal, a simpler theory is preferable to a more complex theory. In these circumstances, this condition - all other things being equal - is problematic, because there is no evidence behind the "theory" (i.e. there is no evidence to show that the subtitles are genuine) and so it is not scientific in any sense of the world, and the source of the "theory" is suspect.

Bob, there is no evidence that the subtitles are false. Therefore the more likely explanation is that they are real. Also given the propensity for anti-semitic bile from Hamas again makes them being true the more likely.
Not ruling out that some zionist group did make them up, I just don't think they would have to is all.

[punisa]

The main character in this video clip is shown to fling around cats by their tails and throw stones at lions in the Gaza Zoo.
_ExZVimjST8

Revleft, how do you feel about this?

:laugh: This clip was funny as hell. Didn't have a clue that Gaza actually had a real Zoo :lol:

All in all it was educational, in a way that is not based on our culture, the junky bee was actually condemned at the end and the point was that you should NOT treat animals that way.

[Dimentio]

Of course Israel tells lies. Of course there are sections of the Arab media which are anti-Semitic. Neither of these things should surprise us.

Devrim

Good spoken. Why become upset?

[Devrim]

Good spoken. Why become upset?

I am not upset.:confused:

Devrim

[Ismail]

"Criticize Israel; Criticize Hamas" is not acceptable vis-à-vis anti-Israel struggle. Unless the IMT set up shop in Gaza or something you're upholding the Revolutionary Association of People-Who-Have-No-Following-In-Gaza and the People's Armed Forces of Basementlandia.

Considering that actual Communist forces do exist in Palestine, such as the DFLP or PFLP, and they aren't in conflict with Hamas over the issue of Israel, then it's safe to say that Hamas represents a strategically progressive position at this point.

[BobKKKindle$]

There is another issue to keep in mind, especially if it turns out that the subtitles of the video are actually genuine - thus far all of the people who have posted in this discussion (including myself) have assumed that Hamas can be held accountable for the message conveyed by these cartoons as they are directly produced by Hamas, and Hamas controls the content, and on this basis, an antisemitic message might lead us to conclude that Hamas is antisemitic as an organization, which, given that these messages are broadcast to the Palestinian people, and Hamas retains significant popular support, would also mean that large numbers of Palestinians are antisemitic, or at least do not look favorably upon Jewish people. The argument seems plausible. However, there is also evidence suggesting that there is not a direct link between Hamas and these cartoons. In this (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/may/12/hamascondemnstheholocaust) article, published by the Guardian, a spokesperson for Hamas argues that Al-Aqsa TV is independent and therefore not subject to Hamas control, and in the same article the spokesperson disputes the notion that the conflict should be understood in religious or ethnic terms, as a historic conflict between Jews and Muslims, choosing instead to emphasize the role of political oppression and modern imperialism. Most importantly, the articles states that Hamas acknowledges and condemns the Holocaust. If Hamas were a genuinely antisemitic organization, it is unlikely that they would publicly deny all of these charges.

In relation to the above, a bit of research has uncovered some interesting articles that cast doubt on the accuracy of the translations, from Arabic speakers, and also shows that MEMRI deliberately twisted the broadcast to convey an aggressive message:

Arabic under Fire, Guardian, May 2007 (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/may/15/arabicunderfire)
MEMRI and its Mickey Mouse Translation, Facts on the Ground, May 2007 (http://www.factsontheground.co.uk/2007/05/14/memri-and-its-mickey-mouse-translation/)

The second link is actually a blog entry, but it links to the CNN discussions surrounding the issue, showing that the Arabic department disputed the translation and eventually advised against it being broadcast, and also includes a translation by Abu Khalil, better known as the angry Arab. Here's an interesting extract:



سنابل: بطخّونا اليهود.

Sanabel: Betokhoona el yahood.
Sanabel: The Jews will shoot us.
MEMRI:We will annihilate the Jews.


But, then again, why should actual analysis from informed sources matter when so many people here feel capable of using their vast knowledge of Palestine (with a good dose of orientalism thrown in) to assert that Hamas are "batshit insane" and "fascists"?

[Devrim]

Looking at the scripts on the blog, there do seem to be some distortions, though some of them I think look legitimate. Certainly if the Arabic text is correct*, then there are distortions in it. It is quite a disturbing thing for children's TV in any case.

As I said earlier 'of course Israel tells lies'. We shouldn't be surprised when they do.


But, then again, why should actual analysis from informed sources matter when so many people here feel capable of using their vast knowledge of Palestine (with a good dose of orientalism thrown in) to assert that Hamas are "batshit insane" and "fascists"?

HAMAS are obviously not 'batshit insane'. They are smart political operators. Neither does the word 'fascist' have any real meaning in this sense.

As for the question of whether HAMAS is anti-Semitic, I don't think that the link to the Guardian really proves anything. They are smart enough political operators to not to go saying things like this to the Guardian:


The Islamic Resistance Movement calls on Arab and Islamic nations to take up the line of serious and persevering action to prevent the success of this horrendous plan, to warn the people of the danger eminating from leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism. Today it is Palestine, tomorrow it will be one country or another. The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.

Of course they present themselves differently to different people. You would have to be very foolish or naive to believe that then never use anti-Semitism in their propoganda.

Devrim

*Which I assume it is. I can't see the original though.

[Yehuda Stern]

My Arabic is pretty good and although I haven't watched this video, I've watched countless other episodes of the same show. First, I've yet to see any message on that show that was outright anti-Semitic. The only Jews I've seen portrayed on the show were Shabak agents, and no one would expect anyone left of Ehud Barak to portray them as particularly nice guys. Then again, I'm certain Hamas has complete control over the show, as well as that Hamas is very much anti-Semitic. There's no point in denying that. I don't see why any of this should shock anyone. The fact that revolutionaries should support Palestinians in all conflicts with Israel doesn't change the fact that their leadership is currently one hundred percent reactionary.

[Communist Theory]

The Hamas - Civilian death toll ratio in this conflict is just FUCKED in one town 83 people were killed with only 5 Hama soldiers and 4 Islamic Jihadists. Now who the hell trains these soldiers. Ugh I can't stand religion.

[Random Precision]

The Hamas - Civilian death toll ratio in this conflict is just FUCKED in one town 83 people were killed with only 5 Hama soldiers and 4 Islamic Jihadists. Now who the hell trains these soldiers. Ugh I can't stand religion.

Yeah, it makes sense to blame religion for this conflict. :rolleyes:

[bretty]

Something else to note, the character throwing cats and stones at the lions was a sketch shown to teach kids NOT to do those things... if OP watched it til the end they make it clear.

[JimmyJazz]

For what it's worth, I posted the first and third video on a discussion board and got two replies from people who speak arabic:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=4499.0

Both claimed it was perfectly accurate, although if you read it you'll see that one later turned out to be extremely pro-Israel, so I don't think he'd be motivated to really nitpick the translation.

[welshboy]

an antisemitic message might lead us to conclude that Hamas is antisemitic as an organization,

Hamas are anti-semitic. This is clear as day to anyone who has read their charter.
They are blood and soil nationalists.
They believe in the protocols of the elders of zion.
They are fascists and anti-semites.


which, given that these messages are broadcast to the Palestinian people, and Hamas retains significant popular support, would also mean that large numbers of Palestinians are antisemitic, or at least do not look favorably upon Jewish people. The argument seems plausible.

The BBC promoted the invasion of Iraq, the Labour party has a great deal of control over the BBC, the Labour party enjoys popular support. This could lead us to believe that the majority of British people supported the war.

Look, Bob, everyone can make mistakes. It's OK you know. You can always realise you're wrong and stop supporting the Fascists and start supporting the people of Palestine.;)

[BobKKKindle$]

They are fascists and anti-semites.You keep repeating that Hamas are fascists (which is not the same as being antisemitic, as, although both should be condemned, someone who holds antisemitic views is not always or necessarily a fascist - there are not mutually inclusive) and yet you have never explained how this is the case - this suggests that you do not understand what fascism is, in terms of its class roots, and when it becomes a potent political force, or you do not understand the situation in Palestine. Of course, it could also be both - which seems the most likely explanation.

And, as asked in my previous post, if Hamas is a fascist regime, then, given that Israel is a bourgeois democracy, surely anarchists should support Israeli attacks against Hamas, given that anarchists also supported the war against Germany?


Hamas are anti-semitic. This is clear as day to anyone who has read their charter.It is probably the case that many members of Hamas, including the leadership, are antisemitic. However, this is not something you can derive from the covenant, not only because the covenant is actually ambiguous when it comes to the relationship between different religions, and the right of Jewish people to live in historic Palestine, as expressed in Article 31, but also and more importantly because scholars generally do not see the covenant as a reliable indication of the movement's contemporary beliefs and objectives. The covenant was created in 1988 when Hamas had just emerged from the Ikhwan and it was certainly a legitimate representation of the movement's ideology at this point in time, given that the Ikhwan held similar views to those expressed in the covenant, but, as Azzam Tamimi stresses in 'Hamas: Unwritten Chapters', both Hamas and the broader Islamist movement have shifted since then, such that it can no longer be taken as reliable, and the document has even received criticism from inside Hamas on the grounds that it does not present an accurate picture of what Hamas is striving towards for people who are new to the movement and not familiar with its politics. This reality is reflected in the fact that, in public speeches and statements, Hamas leaders have almost never referred to the covenant since it was published. In particular, critics have pointed to the religious language used and the promotion of popular myths relating to Jewish people, including the notion that there is a link between the treatment of the Palestinians at the hands of the Israeli state and a conspiracy involving Jews throughout the world, and are also calling for Hamas to place the conflict in its modern historical context, and identify it as a political struggle, instead of a struggle between rival religions. In fact, Khalid Mish'al did exactly this in an interview with a Canadian TV Journalist conducted in Beirut, in 2004, and, according to Tamimi, other Hamas leaders have also been publicly arguing that Jews and Muslims are capable of living together in harmony, once the legitimate rights of the Palestinians are recognized and restored, as members of both ethnic groups did for many centuries prior to the creation of Israel and the inwards migration of Zionist settlers. Tamimi also points out that the conspiracy theory expressed in the covenant was widely held in the Muslim intellectual community until the early 1990s, but has since diminished in significance, both within Hamas, and in the wider Arab world, although it retains some degree of credibility. In connection with all of this, Tamimi makes the point that documents published by Hamas and other Islamist movements may often sound antisemitic because Palestinians generally describe the Israelis with the same word that translates as Jews in English (al-yahud) even when those concerned are actually referring to the Israelis, or a specific group of Israelis, and not the international Jewish community.

As usual, the reality is more complex than it may at first appear.


The BBC promoted the invasion of Iraq, the Labour party has a great deal of control over the BBC, the Labour party enjoys popular support. This could lead us to believe that the majority of British people supported the war.As has been argued many times before, Hamas is qualitatively different from the Labour Party. Whereas the latter is a political party which stands in elections and generally limits its activity to the formally delineated framework of the political system, the influence and role of Hamas also extends to civil society and inter-state relations, in its capacity as a key provider of social services, a political movement rooted in focal points of social activity such as mosques, and, of course, as a resistance movement fighting against Israel. The fact that you insist on trying to understand Hamas by applying a British (and, more broadly, western, or liberal-democratic) framework shows that you are unwilling to acknowledge the different political culture and environment that exists in Palestine, and engage with Palestinian politics on the terms of those who are involved in it. Put simply, the British political system is not how politics works in other parts of the world, and so you can't make simplistic comparisons.

[Devrim]

In connection with all of this, Tamimi makes the point that documents published by Hamas and other Islamist movements may often sound antisemitic because Palestinians generally describe the Israelis with the same word that translates as Jews in English (al-yahud) even when those concerned are actually referring to the Israelis, or a specific group of Israelis, and not the international Jewish community.

Really what sort of nonsense is this? It translates as 'the Jews' into English because it means 'the (masculine) Jews'. It is quite possible in Arabic to refer to people as 'Israelis'. The fact is that generally people in Palestine refer to them as 'the Jews', not 'the Israelis'. This has nothing to do with translation.

In general I find it possible to intellectually respect Yahuda's position even whilst vehemently disagreeing with it. He supports them on principle even though he acknowledges that 'their leadership is currently one hundred percent reactionary'. Bob on the other hand claims to have a similar position, but then spends his time trying to convince people that actually they are not that reactionary. At least Yahuda's argument is honest.

Devrim

[welshboy]

You keep repeating that Hamas are fascists (which is not the same as being antisemitic, as, although both should be condemned, someone who holds antisemitic views is not always or necessarily a fascist - there are not mutually inclusive)

I said they are Fascist AND anti-semitic. I am not saying they are mutually exclusive though i the case of Hamas they go hand in hand.
Hamas push blood and soil nationallism alongside social projects.
They murder trade unionists and opponents.
They are anti-semitic.


The Zionist plan is limitless. After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying.(Article 32)


The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews.


Israel, Judaism and Jews challenge Islam and the Moslem people. "May the cowards never sleep."


They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world


They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it.

Sounds like anti-semitism, looks like anti-semitism. Hey guess what. It iS anti-semitism!!
So why is it you support this lot again Bob? Why do you hate the Jews so? :(
source (http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp)

PS the bit about you hating Jews was a joke :p
PPS Don't tell me, the source being Yale is flawed as teh jooz control the amerinazi's

[BobKKKindle$]

Bob on the other hand claims to have a similar position, but then spends his time trying to convince people that actually they are not that reactionaryBy your own admission, Hamas are not a fascist group, and yet exactly this has been asserted multiple times, and so why let this falsehood stand? I've never tried to deny that Hamas are reactionary - in fact, I've always made a distinction between agreeing with Hamas on an ideological level, and offering military support to Hamas in their capacity as the leading and most militant section of the resistance, with me adopting the latter position - but, given that the ideological character of an anti-imperialist movement does tend to affect the way people approach cases of national oppression, if I see a blatant lie, such as someone claiming that falsified videos are accurate, or that Hamas wants to repeat the Holocaust, I will correct it, in the interests of factual accuracy. It's that simple, and it's not about me defending Hamas ideologically. Your posts are always factually detailed, so why would you be opposed to an informed discussion?


The fact is that generally people in Palestine refer to them as 'the Jews', not 'the Israelis'.It is an issue of meaning - referring to 'the Jews' often does not carry a distinct meaning from 'the Israelis' even though the former can tend to sound antisemitic because it does not clearly identify the political actor, and could lead someone to assume that Palestinians hate Jews as an ethnic group, instead of being opposed to the Israeli state.

*****

Welshboy, I've already made a post on the covenant. You're obviously incapable of having a sensible discussion. I don't actually think this is a funny issue, but I've made my points, and people can judge for themselves who has the better position.

[Yehuda Stern]

In general I find it possible to intellectually respect Yahuda's position even whilst vehemently disagreeing with it. He supports them on principle even though he acknowledges that 'their leadership is currently one hundred percent reactionary'.

As usual, this is twisting my words. I don't support 'them,' i.e. Hamas, but the Palestinian struggle against Israel. I do not support reactionaries.

And Bob, kindly untangle yourself from the embarrassing attempt to disprove Hamas' anti-Semitism. It is in their charter, it is in many of their proclamations, and it is in their practice as well. Why does our support for Palestinian national liberation have to depend on its leadership not being anti-Semitic? It does not.

[Post-Something]

I can speak Arabic, and the videos translation is pretty sound, despite having a couple of flaws.

[elux]

dude oh my god!

[Dean]

What can I say about these video clips in all honesty? I can say deep down inside that I feel horrible for these children that are being exploited as political pawns by the Hamas.

Revleft, how do you feel about this?

You kidding, right? The prevalence of a death culture is totally the doing of the Israeli state. When a reporter told a child to stop playing with white phosphorous that was still burning after their neighborhood was carpetted with it by the IAF, the child said "what does it matter? we are dead already."

Get your head out of your ass and start watching real news.

[Dean]

I heard, not sure if it's true, but that the sub-titling for this stuff was done by Israel and that it skewed what was said to make it sound...well crazy.

Indeed. Look at the link at the bottom - for starters, its PMW, a right wing org. And it is based in Israel (.il). So, yeah, this is clearly some Israeli propaganda.

[Devrim]

By your own admission, Hamas are not a fascist group, and yet exactly this has been asserted multiple times, and so why let this falsehood stand?

Because I think it is a meaningless empty description, which hasn't been thought through and is just a label to throw at somebody you don't like. To be honest I think I gave the argument the attention it deserved:


HAMAS are obviously not 'batshit insane'. They are smart political operators. Neither does the word 'fascist' have any real meaning in this sense.


I've always made a distinction between agreeing with Hamas on an ideological level, and offering military support to Hamas in their capacity as the leading and most militant section of the resistance, with me adopting the latter position

Please, we don't need to go through this one again. You don't give them military support. You give political support to their military actions.


if I see a blatant lie, such as someone claiming that falsified videos are accurate, or that Hamas wants to repeat the Holocaust, I will correct it, in the interests of factual accuracy.

As would I, in my opinion though you go beyond this to the point of providing a political defence of Islamicist currents.


It's that simple, and it's not about me defending Hamas ideologically. Your posts are always factually detailed, so why would you be opposed to an informed discussion?

I am not at all opposed to an informed discussion, and in many ways you have added to it bringing in new and relevant information. I am merely commenting on what I see as the point of the argument.


It is an issue of meaning - referring to 'the Jews' often does not carry a distinct meaning from 'the Israelis' even though the former can tend to sound antisemitic because it does not clearly identify the political actor, and could lead someone to assume that Palestinians hate Jews as an ethnic group, instead of being opposed to the Israeli state.

Many Palestinians do hate Jews though. That is a fact.

Devrim

[Devrim]

As usual, this is twisting my words. I don't support 'them,' i.e. Hamas, but the Palestinian struggle against Israel. I do not support reactionaries.

It is not a deliberate twisting of your words at all. It is how I understood what you were saying. It can really be difficult to understand the way Trotskyists use the term support sometimes.

And If I as someone who isused to the language and terminology of Trotskyism have problems with it imagine what problems people who don't have that experience have.

Devrim