Real Men Do Not Let Men Rape ?

[CommieCat]

http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rapeflyer1.jpg

http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rapeflyer2.jpg

?

[Dr Mindbender]

all im saying is whoever altered that poster is a fucking asshole.

[Rjevan]

http://www.feministe.us/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rapeflyer2.jpg

Ha-ha-ha, how very funny. :mad:
I hope this ass was hit by the next bus.

[Pogue]

What sort of fuck does that...

[Reuben]

Ok someone, somewhere vandalised a poster in a way that promoted rape. Is this really worth a thread?

[Coggeh]

Tbh, i think the guy walked past drunk and thought it'd be funny , I doubt hes actually trying to promote rape ...

[Killfacer]

Maybe you are all taking it a bit seriously. It's not like everyone will see this and be like "If i don't rape someone, i won't be a real man". Lighten up. I don't think it really promotes rape, someone just did it for a laugh.

[jake williams]

There's an interesting way to interpret this actually. Because in reality, "actually existing" men are letting men rape, in a whole myriad of ways. "Real men" in the literal sense do rape, a horrific number of them.

[Killfacer]

There's an interesting way to interpret this actually. Because in reality, "actually existing" men are letting men rape, in a whole myriad of ways. "Real men" in the literal sense do rape, a horrific number of them.

Obviously they don't mean "real men" in that way though, so it's irrelevant.

[black magick hustla]

its just a really bad taste joke people. people do rape jokes all the time because it offends people. whether its good or bad is another question but whether it "promotes" rape, i seriously doubt it

[Decolonize The Left]

The altered sign aside, I have issues with the first message: "Real men don't let men rape."

What's a "real man?"
When does a man cease to be a man and become a real man?
Is this solely when he stops another man from raping someone?

No one should be raping anyone else. Rape has nothing to do with differences in one's "manhood," and everything to do with respect for another person's autonomy.

- August

[jake williams]

The altered sign aside, I have issues with the first message: "Real men don't let men rape."

What's a "real man?"
When does a man cease to be a man and become a real man?
Is this solely when he stops another man from raping someone?

No one should be raping anyone else. Rape has nothing to do with differences in one's "manhood," and everything to do with respect for another person's autonomy.

- August
Aside from that, "manhood" as it is defined within a patriarchal society involves actually encouraging rape.

[black magick hustla]

thats not true, ideally manhood is described as being subservient to all the woman's wishes because the latter is frail and beautiful. you know, bein chivalrous and all that worthless garbage

[Wanted Man]

Real men do not let men rape? Why, if I'm out with my friends and they want to rape someone, more power to them! :rolleyes: Because that's how it happens so often...

It's a dumb poster, and a dumb reaction to it.

[Module]

Edit: Nevermind

[CommieCat]

Ok someone, somewhere vandalised a poster in a way that promoted rape. Is this really worth a thread?

Except I'm interested in the message contained in both the original and the vandalized poster. So yeah, I DO think discussing what constitutes a 'real man', whether it is one man's fault that another man rapes & concepts of masculinity ARE relevant & worth a thread.


Originally posted by Jammoe
Because in reality, "actually existing" men are letting men rape, in a whole myriad of ways.

In what myriad of ways?


Originally posted by Marmot
its just a really bad taste joke people. people do rape jokes all the time because it offends people. whether its good or bad is another question but whether it "promotes" rape, i seriously doubt it

Well firstly, I think that it is probably just a very, very poor 'joke.'

However, the vandalized version, although I don't think it is in this case, could be making a legitimate beef with the original 'anti-rape' poster. I mean, who defines what a 'real man' is? Is that a man whom is going to go out of his way to protect those poor innocent women, and if he doesn't then he's just as complicit in the rape as any other man is?! Couldn't this be an attack on how warped some understandings of masculinity are, that some DO perceive misogynistic/chauvinistic actions as defining 'manhood?' Like Jammoe said, real men DO rape.

Like I said, I don't think that it is in this case (just because I don't think the person who did it had enough brains to put forth such a view). But I still find the original poster questionable.



Originally posted by The Charming Man
Real men do not let men rape? Why, if I'm out with my friends and they want to rape someone, more power to them! Because that's how it happens so often...

It's a dumb poster, and a dumb reaction to it.

I'm glad SOMEONE questioned how bizarre the idea that there is some sort of concoction amongst men which allow for rapes to happen, or that it IS within men's collective powers to prevent rapes from happening. Now sure, there are rapes which are allowed/encouraged by other men, like gang-rapes. But in the scope of things the only one accountable for a rape is the rapist who committed it.

I mean, some anti-rape posters, in my view, are just trying to mold 'correct' versions of masculinity which are out-right condescending to woman AND men.

For example, the 'Men Can Stop Rape' campaign has some interesting posters:

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D2.jpg

and

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D3.jpg

So, if a woman is intoxicated you better say no, since she is obviously unable to give consent! And if you are drunk, you also better back off, because you can't give consent (or you can't understand her consent or lack thereof)?!

And some others:

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D4.jpg

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D1.jpg

I think Men Can Stop Rape puts out some agreeable ideas, but having intoxicated sex isn't something out of the ordinary. Why should a legitimate social practice be reversed...? Why should we be afraid that intoxicated sex may constitute rape? Is there something deeper at play here?

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Vandals tend to be immature pricks whether they're trying to defame a perfectly legitimate campaign like this or writing "fuk u" in bathroom stalls. That includes all the losers here who think it's cool to destroy private property.

[jake williams]

In what myriad of ways?
I think generally there are cultural tendencies towards rape. There's encouragement of male sexual aggression, or at very least assertiveness. There's a denial of female sexual agency. There's the general idea that women don't want sex and aren't going to want sex, and the job of men is to try to coax them into it. This sort of cultural trend has a number of concrete manifestations.

[Miscreant]

It's a dumb poster, and a dumb reaction to it.

Truth.

[al8]

What on earth are you talking about, Genecosta?

[Wanted Man]

I'm glad SOMEONE questioned how bizarre the idea that there is some sort of concoction amongst men which allow for rapes to happen, or that it IS within men's collective powers to prevent rapes from happening. Now sure, there are rapes which are allowed/encouraged by other men, like gang-rapes. But in the scope of things the only one accountable for a rape is the rapist who committed it.

I mean, some anti-rape posters, in my view, are just trying to mold 'correct' versions of masculinity which are out-right condescending to woman AND men.

For example, the 'Men Can Stop Rape' campaign has some interesting posters:

So, if a woman is intoxicated you better say no, since she is obviously unable to give consent! And if you are drunk, you also better back off, because you can't give consent (or you can't understand her consent or lack thereof)?!

And some others:

I think Men Can Stop Rape puts out some agreeable ideas, but having intoxicated sex isn't something out of the ordinary. Why should a legitimate social practice be reversed...? Why should we be afraid that intoxicated sex may constitute rape? Is there something deeper at play here?
Those are definitely remarkable. The "strength" part suggests that men are by definition "the stronger sex", making us uniquely capable of committing or preventing rape. It may be subjective, but most of the posters show relatively strong and/or good-looking men who appear dominant over the women next to them. It implies that they, as the stronger sex, should do their manly duty and protect the weaker-willed women by not having drunk sex with them. Which is also a sexist message.

[rednordman]

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D2.jpg

and

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D3.jpg

So, if a woman is intoxicated you better say no, since she is obviously unable to give consent! And if you are drunk, you also better back off, because you can't give consent (or you can't understand her consent or lack thereof)?!

And some others:

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D4.jpg

http://www.mencanstoprape.org/usr_img/D1.jpg

I think Men Can Stop Rape puts out some agreeable ideas, but having intoxicated sex isn't something out of the ordinary. Why should a legitimate social practice be reversed...? Why should we be afraid that intoxicated sex may constitute rape? Is there something deeper at play here? WTF? the strength campaign.com? I totally agree with your post in the sense that the original un-vandalised version is rather controversial in its own way. In fact, though i do not tolerate what the vandal has done to it, it sort of was asking for such a response, especially if it has been put up near a pub or somewhere that serves alchohol.
The thing that strikes me about these posters, is that they are put across in a way that makes rape seem common place in society..up until the point where every man is a suspect. As you have mentioned, sex does indeed happen after adding alchohol into a conversation with a man and woman in a social senario. Its just a fact of life and doesnt always constitute rape.
Also as mentioned before, they are very 'cliche' and stereotypical, in the appearance of strong, dominant and masculine men, holding/protecting petit, weak and innocent looking women.

Its funny that people feel the need to put up these kinds of posters as it is a common sentiment that people have strongly agreed with for decades anyway. I mean no one tolerates rape in any situation do they? -

[Dr Mindbender]

The original poster is also mysoginistic in that it implies that women are incapable of defending themselves.

[jake williams]

The original poster is also mysoginistic in that it implies that women are incapable of defending themselves.
You might get a lot of shit from this if you're read wrong, but it's actually a general point about the whole anti-rape thing, I think. I think the intent of "Real men..." is to try to say that men have a responsibility to prevent rape, that they're not off the hook for the problem, and I get that. But I also agree that it can sort of imply that women can't get it done for themselves.

[Sean]

Edit: Nevermind
I agreed with your previous decision. I feel its a pointless thread and all its doing is exciting a little bit out outrage. If anyone believed this they wouldnt have any place here, now you can debate the brass tacks and if it is humourous or whatever but in reality, nothing learned or gained from this.

[TC]

Given that the person who "vandalized" the poster and the person who photographed it were obviously the same person and obviously female (given the before/after nature of the photos and the photographers hand) I'm guessing that the original poster either took it out of context, or some 'feminist' blogger actually manufactured fake-sexist hate speech for the sake of having something to blog about.

Either way, very lame.

[Killfacer]

The original poster is also mysoginistic in that it implies that women are incapable of defending themselves.

Can you expand on this? It looks like you are saying that a poster which says men should try and stop rape is sexist...

[TC]

Tbh, i think the guy walked past drunk and thought it'd be funny , I doubt hes actually trying to promote rape ...

Doubt its a guy: does that look like a guy's hand?

[CommieCat]

Given that the person who "vandalized" the poster and the person who photographed it were obviously the same person and obviously female (given the before/after nature of the photos and the photographers hand) I'm guessing that the original poster either took it out of context, or some 'feminist' blogger actually manufactured fake-sexist hate speech for the sake of having something to blog about.

Uh sorry, but it isn't obvious that the person who vandalized it was the same person as the person who took the photo, that's just a ridiculous claim without any evidence.

I'll let the person who took the pictures talk for themselves:

"Hi everyone,

I took the first three photos (and the other scene was discovered and posted by Stephanie K., who posted the photo).

Here’s some background -

The first two photos were taken in a bus shelter at one of the two main bus stops at the campus. The “treat women with respect” flyer was torn down within a few days after I noticed it.

Regarding the second photo (with the remnants of the original flyer) -
I think that the caution tape happens fits with the conflict here, but it’s only coincidental that the tape was there.

The “do not let men rape” message was in a less visible location near the bus shelter. I missed it at first. By the time I did notice that “do not let men rape” message, it seemed as though the flyer had already been partially ripped away and then taped back down. In the second photo above the tape along the right side is different. I think that side might have been taped back down after it was pulled away from the surface.

(On a day not long after I posted that “do not let men rape” photo I noticed that the sheet was still there, but it was only taped down at the top and the bottom; and the tape along the right seemed to be completely gone.)

If the dates on Flickr are correct, the “real men do rape” photo was taken six days after the “do not let men rape photo.” Stephanie tore the sheet down after she photographed it.

I found her photo very upsetting; I took the modified sheet as a pro-rape message, and I was shocked to see that someone would present such a message.

Now I wonder if the “real men do rape” statement was meant to be a way of criticizing men –all men."

---

And no, this wasn't the only poster that was vandalized.

http://contexts.org/socimages/2009/02/06/defending-privilege/

[CommieCat]

Doubt its a guy: does that look like a guy's hand?

Because obviously the person who took the photo MUST have vandalized it!!!

[jake williams]

Now I wonder if the “real men do rape” statement was meant to be a way of criticizing men –all men."
This is what I was referring to earlier on in this thread.

[Lynx]

Notions of masculinity should be challenged, not pandered to. Shit like this deserves to be defaced, then trashed.

[Lynx]

Now I wonder if the “real men do rape” statement was meant to be a way of criticizing men –all men."
It could be interpreted this way. After all, what kind of men are we to conclude do rape: unreal men, phony men, rapists?

[Killfacer]

Notions of masculinity should be challenged, not pandered to. Shit like this deserves to be defaced, then trashed.

So no attempt should ever be made to reach a different audience? You're being stupidly idealistic. If the best way to reach groups of "lads" is by telling them they are "real men" if they stop rape then so be it. Personally i don't have a problem with someone defacing the poster, in fact i would find it funny if i had done it. However, i think it's just a pretty shitty poster, it's poorly designed, it looks like crap and it's asking for defacement.

[Lynx]

So no attempt should ever be made to reach a different audience? You're being stupidly idealistic. If the best way to reach groups of "lads" is by telling them they are "real men" if they stop rape then so be it. Personally i don't have a problem with someone defacing the poster, in fact i would find it funny if i had done it. However, i think it's just a pretty shitty poster, it's poorly designed, it looks like crap and it's asking for defacement.
I hope you're not suggesting that the best way to reach groups of lads is to reduce the reality of rape to a slogan that appeals to their vanity. There must be a better way.

What if the message were further modified:
Real men do rape. Are you a real man?

Please tell me what a hypothetical group of 'lads' would make of this message.

[Invincible Summer]

Although I understand that a great percentage of men rape more than women, but these posters suggest that people shouldn't worry about women raping men, or homosexuals being raped by their partner.

It "normalizes" heterosexual rape as an issue and frames heterosexual men as antagonists, whereas in homosexual couples there is just as much of an issue.

[bcbm]

I hope you're not suggesting that the best way to reach groups of lads is to reduce the reality of rape to a slogan that appeals to their vanity. There must be a better way.

Unfortunately we live in a society where people are obsessed with vanity in that way and view concepts like "real man" as important. While I don't find the poster particularly compelling, I think normalizing the idea of rape as something that is fucked up, however it is done, is not a problematic thing. Certainly masculinity needs to be challenged, but that's a far bigger project than challenging rape mentality. I've known people who worked in rape education on campuses and the stories they have told me are horrifying. If a poster or slogan or whatever like this can save one woman from rape, then it is certainly worth it, even if it doesn't challenge the larger problems.


What if the message were further modified:
Real men do rape. Are you a real man?

Please tell me what a hypothetical group of 'lads' would make of this message.

A lot of "real men" have no idea what rape means. Many think that fucking somebody who is drunk and passed out is fine, as long as they walked them to the room/walked in to the room or less than that. We need more education about rape and what it is, not just catchy slogans or whatever. And if slogans are developed that can reach people who might not be ready to accept a complete challenge to patriarchy, good.


Although I understand that a great percentage of men rape more than women, but these posters suggest that people shouldn't worry about women raping men, or homosexuals being raped by their partner.

It "normalizes" heterosexual rape as an issue and frames heterosexual men as antagonists, whereas in homosexual couples there is just as much of an issue.

So then more or different posters need to be made, not less of these posters. Most of the population is heterosexual and most rapes will be man on woman heterosexual rapes.

[CommieCat]

For the record, Men Can Stop Rape does have posters of homosexual couples. And to the people who thinks this poster should be defaced, that would be a stupid & counter-productive act. Sure, you could have legitimate arguments against the poster, but I still think the feminists have the right purpose/aims/intentions; arguing against violence against women. You're not going to win anyone to your viewpoint by vandalizing & trashing their poster, it would serve absolutely no purpose but to boost your own ego. Sheesh, a bit of mutual respect with people who would definitely be sympathetic to the left...

[Killfacer]

Although I understand that a great percentage of men rape more than women, but these posters suggest that people shouldn't worry about women raping men, or homosexuals being raped by their partner.

It "normalizes" heterosexual rape as an issue and frames heterosexual men as antagonists, whereas in homosexual couples there is just as much of an issue.

Females raping males isn't a problem on the same level as male rape of women.

[Killfacer]

I hope you're not suggesting that the best way to reach groups of lads is to reduce the reality of rape to a slogan that appeals to their vanity. There must be a better way.

What if the message were further modified:
Real men do rape. Are you a real man?

Please tell me what a hypothetical group of 'lads' would make of this message.

No, i am saying that it is important to reach out to people and try to stop rape, even if it means make crappy posters which appeal to peoples vanity. The idea that this poster is bad because it doesn't deal with all the problems is laughable.

[Lynx]

I agree that these posters serve a purpose if they spark discussion.

Also, if a poster is provocative, it is likely to get defaced. That may be because the message was thought-provoking (success!) or because it was intolerably crappy and deserved to go.

IMO the defacement of the OP photo was an improvement.


A lot of "real men" have no idea what rape means. Many think that fucking somebody who is drunk and passed out is fine, as long as they walked them to the room/walked in to the room or less than that. We need more education about rape and what it is, not just catchy slogans or whatever.
The first opportunity for education and discussion of rape would be high school. There's also wikipedia, or your local police department, if you have any question as to what kind of behavior constitutes a crime. Do 'real men' live in a vacuum?


Although I understand that a great percentage of men rape more than women, but these posters suggest that people shouldn't worry about women raping men, or homosexuals being raped by their partner.

It "normalizes" heterosexual rape as an issue and frames heterosexual men as antagonists, whereas in homosexual couples there is just as much of an issue.
As usual the reader is left to draw inferences. To avoid this, consider a poster carrying a more direct message:

Females raping males isn't a problem on the same level as male rape of women.
In other words, if this is the message to be conveyed, then go ahead and state it in no uncertain terms. (The above reply is not directed to Killfacer specifically)

[Dr Mindbender]

Can you expand on this? It looks like you are saying that a poster which says men should try and stop rape is sexist...

Because it perpetuates the idea that women are all feeble, weak damsels in distress that need a knight in shining armour to defend them from the rapist dragon.

The whole attitude strikes me as the complete antithesis to this old feminist icon-

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/cmag/976-005~We-Can-Do-It-Posters.jpg

[CommieCat]

What, that woman should do their patriotic duty and have a (slightly) more prominent role in the work force, accepting low wages, only when it suits their nation's imperialist ambitions? Fuck that & fuck Rosie the Riveter.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7fJe_pARWos/SMj-U_1GeZI/AAAAAAAABso/5SoFR1Qec9s/s1600/palin.jpg

[Lynx]

It shouldn't matter who made the poster, the message is what counts. That being said, I don't see how Rosie the Riveter can be recycled. The artistic style is dated and is associated with pop culture from that era.

[Dr Mindbender]

What, that woman should do their patriotic duty and have a (slightly) more prominent role in the work force, accepting low wages, only when it suits their nation's imperialist ambitions? Fuck that & fuck Rosie the Riveter.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_7fJe_pARWos/SMj-U_1GeZI/AAAAAAAABso/5SoFR1Qec9s/s1600/palin.jpg

Oh, i was ignorant of the history behind the image. I always found the picture appealing politically because to me it symbolised feminist strength.

[Killfacer]

Because it perpetuates the idea that women are all feeble, weak damsels in distress that need a knight in shining armour to defend them from the rapist dragon.

The whole attitude strikes me as the complete antithesis to this old feminist icon-



So you think that as many rapes would happen if the said women had been occampanied. Whether it is a male is secondary, but you rarely hear about a 2 people getting raped. I assume the whole man thing was try to pressure men into being thoughful enough to occampany a woman home.

You're position seems a bit confused. So we admit rape is a problem yes? I assume therefor that we can admit that most victims of rape are women on their own. Therfor, with male (or female) company, these rapes would be less likely.

[jake williams]

So you think that as many rapes would happen if the said women had been occampanied.
100% of rapes involve victims who were with another person at the time of the crime.

[Killfacer]

100% of rapes involve victims who were with another person at the time of the crime.

Thats me shot down in flames. Source?

[Dr Mindbender]

So you think that as many rapes would happen if the said women had been occampanied. Whether it is a male is secondary, but you rarely hear about a 2 people getting raped. I assume the whole man thing was try to pressure men into being thoughful enough to occampany a woman home.

You're position seems a bit confused. So we admit rape is a problem yes? I assume therefor that we can admit that most victims of rape are women on their own. Therfor, with male (or female) company, these rapes would be less likely.

i agree that anyone within reason should try to help prevent rape if it is in their power to do so (not all rape victims are female for that matter).

I'm just angered by the message implied that on the basis of gender, one should step in to prevent it regardless of the circumstances. Do you think fatima whitbread or jet out of gladiators would require any assistance iif pete docherty tried to rape them? i somehow doubt it.

[jake williams]

Thats me shot down in flames. Source?
I know it's not good academic practice, but I'm just going to state it and ask you to provide a counterexample if you want to disagree.

[Killfacer]

i agree that anyone within reason should try to help prevent rape if it is in their power to do so (not all rape victims are female for that matter).

I'm just angered by the message implied that on the basis of gender, one should step in to prevent it regardless of the circumstances. Do you think fatima whitbread or jet out of gladiators would require any assistance iif pete docherty tried to rape them? i somehow doubt it.

Most women i have seen do not look like Fatima Whitbread or Jet out of Gladatiors. In fact most women tend to be smaller than men.

[Killfacer]

I know it's not good academic practice, but I'm just going to state it and ask you to provide a counterexample if you want to disagree.

You can't do that! You maniac.

[Dr Mindbender]

Most women i have seen do not look like Fatima Whitbread or Jet out of Gladatiors. In fact most women tend to be smaller than men.


Thats still beside the fact that not all women would require the assistance of a man in a rape situation.

Besides which, don't judge a book by its cover. A lot women i've met are bloody strong despite their diminutive stature.

[Killfacer]

Thats still beside the fact that not all women would require the assistance of a man in a rape situation.

Besides which, don't judge a book by its cover. A lot women i've met are bloody strong despite their diminutive stature.

I think most people could do with assistance of any kind in a rape situation...

[jake williams]

You can't do that! You maniac.
I'm a rogue.

Seriously though, my point was that I really think there is a connection between what I think is a patriarchal attitude that men have to protect otherwise helpless women, and the actual incidence of rape. This idea is behind the dependency many women have on their partners (I'm not blaming the women themselves, it's a systemic problem), which is closely tied to abuse, and in fact especially traumatic abuse. Of course we all know that most rapes involve someone known to the victim, and very many (probably way more than get reported, I wouldn't bet on a majority but it's a possibility depending on how broadly you define "rape") involve the victim and their sexual partner.

[Killfacer]

I'm a rogue.

Seriously though, my point was that I really think there is a connection between what I think is a patriarchal attitude that men have to protect otherwise helpless women, and the actual incidence of rape. This idea is behind the dependency many women have on their partners (I'm not blaming the women themselves, it's a systemic problem), which is closely tied to abuse, and in fact especially traumatic abuse. Of course we all know that most rapes involve someone known to the victim, and very many (probably way more than get reported, I wouldn't bet on a majority but it's a possibility depending on how broadly you define "rape") involve the victim and their sexual partner.

Okay, can you actually source it now...

[jake williams]

I'm not sure which part you want sourced. I can't find a very thorough analysis of victim-rapist relationship just in the first few hits on Google, but this one is decent:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=iV398oA5DdsC&pg=PA6&lpg=PA6&
dq=rape+relationship+to+victim&source=bl&ots=P1Yv4jVxcC&sig=JPW6tEMCKkX9i5W99HdoFUodag4&hl=en&ei=NBSfSeLSKpjeM-CswOIL&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA6,M1

Scroll down to relationship.

As to rapes between intimates being underreported, I don't know of any studies off the top of my head, but in the literature when it's mentioned a lot of researchers kind of take it for granted, because it's a logical assumption. People feel less likely to be believed, people don't want their partner to get in trouble, prosecutions are trickier, etc., and in fact in these specifics there are studies.

[Killfacer]

I can't seem to veiw it, but your sources seem a bit sparce... where did you get the 100% of rapes thing? Seems like nobody knows the true figures...

[apathy maybe]

100% of rapes involve victims who were with another person at the time of the crime.


I can't seem to veiw it, but your sources seem a bit sparce... where did you get the 100% of rapes thing? Seems like nobody knows the true figures...

Victim + rapist = victim + another person.

That's how I read it.

That is to say, to have a rape, you require a victim and a rapist, and it is the responsibility of the rapist not to rape. Or something.

[Killfacer]

Victim + rapist = victim + another person.

That's how I read it.

That is to say, to have a rape, you require a victim and a rapist, and it is the responsibility of the rapist not to rape. Or something.

Insightful.... :confused:

[jake williams]

I can't seem to veiw it, but your sources seem a bit sparce... where did you get the 100% of rapes thing? Seems like nobody knows the true figures...
Aye, it was a piss link. Just Google "victim rape relationship" or something like that, and stuff should come up.

apathy's basically got it. I was being sort of sarcastic.

[Killfacer]

Aye, it was a piss link. Just Google "victim rape relationship" or something like that, and stuff should come up.

apathy's basically got it. I was being sort of sarcastic.

You google it, you made the assertion and attempted to use it to disagree with something i said.

[jake williams]

You google it, you made the assertion and attempted to use it to disagree with something i said.
Frankly I can't be bothered. It's really obvious stuff, and it's easy enough to research. Have you even read any of the literature on the topic? It's just common knowledge. And you haven't pointed out something specific you disagree with.

[Janine Melnitz]

Unfortunately we live in a society where people are obsessed with vanity in that way and view concepts like "entrepreneur" as important. While I don't find the poster particularly compelling, I think normalizing the idea of sweatshops as something that is fucked up, however it is done, is not a problematic thing. Certainly capitalism needs to be challenged, but that's a far bigger project than challenging sweatshop mentality. I've known people who worked in sweatshop education on campuses and the stories they have told me are horrifying. If a poster or slogan or whatever like this can save one worker from the favelas, then it is certainly worth it, even if it doesn't challenge the larger problems.



A lot of "entrepreneurs" have no idea what a sweatshop means. Many think that having somebody ejected from their farmland is fine, as long as they are paid local minimum wage at the factory/paid what could be gotten away with or less than that. We need more education about sweatshops and what they are, not just catchy slogans or whatever. And if slogans are developed that can reach people who might not be ready to accept a complete challenge to capitalism, good.



So then more or different posters need to be made, not less of these posters. Most of the population is liberal and most exploitation will be capitalist on worker exploitation.
Yeah

[Killfacer]

Frankly I can't be bothered. It's really obvious stuff, and it's easy enough to research. Have you even read any of the literature on the topic? It's just common knowledge. And you haven't pointed out something specific you disagree with.

You can't make an assertion which has no factual basis because it's common knowledge. Loads of things that are "common knowledge" are incorrect.

[jake williams]

You can't make an assertion which has no factual basis because it's common knowledge. Loads of things that are "common knowledge" are incorrect.
What "assertions" have I made that you disagree with?

[Killfacer]

What "assertions" have I made that you disagree with?

You said that x amount of rapes are done by people who know the victim (or something like that).

[Pogue]

You said that x amount of rapes are done by people who know the victim (or something like that).

That is actually true though.

[Killfacer]

That is actually true though.

And i can't really comment on it because i don't have a clue. I just want to seea source.

[jake williams]

And i can't really comment on it because i don't have a clue. I just want to seea source.
What kind of sources do you want? There's academic papers and there's news articles. Not a lot of people care to point it out in academic papers though because it's so bloody obvious.

[Killfacer]

I couldn't give a flying fuck what the source is. However, this thread has been derailed somewhat so i'm gonna keep schtum.

[Invincible Summer]

So then more or different posters need to be made, not less of these posters. Most of the population is heterosexual and most rapes will be man on woman heterosexual rapes.
I never said that fewer posters need to be made.



Females raping males isn't a problem on the same level as male rape of women.

Yes, I know, but that wasn't my point. My point was that it's not taking into account that other types of rape do happen.

[Killfacer]

I never said that fewer posters need to be made.




Yes, I know, but that wasn't my point. My point was that it's not taking into account that other types of rape do happen.

Yes but why does that matter?