Teachers should be better qualified .

[Coggeh]

This might seem like an odd topic , but I'm sick of the stuff some teachers can get away with . They treat some students like sh*t .Theirs a list of examples I could give but just yesterday for one , a guy walks into class late and the teacher starts spewing up that he must have been brought up in a muck savage home and his parents must be out doing drugs and drinking all the time etc etc (not to mention he's from a poor side of the city and both his parents are past away and he's in foster care).

My point and solution is that just because one is qualified in Maths and English for example doesn't make them capable of being a teacher . They should have given classes on how to work with kids and teens . How to be paitent etc

Now in primary teaching this is done to a degree, but not when teachers are trying to work with teens in secondary .

Teachers have one of the highest rates of suicide because their unprepared for the presures and the emotional aspects of the job . The courses in teaching must be changed .

It would better students and teachers alike .

Thoughts?

[butterfly]

Teachers should be trained in adolescent psychology imo.

[mykittyhasaboner]

For the most part I agree, I can think of a lot of teachers Ive had that certainly weren't qualified for their job. Most end up just becoming dictators of the classroom and put forth little effort to help their students truly understand and comprehend the material; instead they just give them work to keep them busy in order to put something in the grade book. As far as the behavior of some teachers, its sometimes really inappropriate. They tend to pick on students and never cut them any slack. Their behavior ultimately affects how the class operates, as well as the mentalities of the students. Nobody wants to put up with an asshole teacher constantly giving you shit; this is why a lot of students fail classes, because the teachers don't fucking help them at all!

In my opinion, having one person as the head of a whole class is flawed in itself. This method ultimately puts too much pressure one person, because they have to come up with lesson plans, tests, activities by themselves. Students should have the opportunity to discuss/debate and even teach certain topics or concepts themselves. I once had a world history teacher who would spend an entire class letting students get into a circle and just talk about a given topic. It proved to be a lot of fun for both her and the students, and it lets students be their own teachers in a way.

[scarletghoul]

Teachers are lame. Often they go into teaching because of some inferiority complex so they like to push kids around.

Yeah, there should be some other qualification necessary. But also there is too much emphasis in the system on qualifications and stuff like that is all that matters.... hmm.

Whatever, they should all be shot.

[mikelepore]

that just because one is qualified in Maths and English for example doesn't make them capable of being a teacher . They should have given classes on how to work with kids and teens . How to be paitent etc

They get some, for what it's worth. In New York a person with a state teaching certification has taken ten college courses in education. These courses are named: adolescent development, educational psychology, social and philosophical foundations of education, teaching methods, assessment and evaluation methods, and five others which I can't remember just now -- plus sixteen weeks of supervision as a student teacher. But this isn't to imply that what they are taught to do is really what is workable. I think some of the training is junk.

I've gone through that process. For a short time I taught high school physics, and 7th and 8th grade math and science. To tell you the truth, I found the atmosphere of disrespect to be pointed in the other direction. I tried to be so nice to the kids, and they immediately took that as the signal for them to go wild, and they all refused to sit in their seats, or to face the front of the room, or take out their notebooks and pencils. I found that I had to act like a dictator to get them to remain sitting and be quiet.

[Vendetta]

Teachers are lame. Often they go into teaching because of some inferiority complex so they like to push kids around.

...? What? C'mon.

[Schrödinger's Cat]

Teachers are lame. Often they go into teaching because of some inferiority complex so they like to push kids around.

Yeah, there should be some other qualification necessary. But also there is too much emphasis in the system on qualifications and stuff like that is all that matters.... hmm.

Whatever, they should all be shot.

As an aspiring teacher, I think I'm entitled to say: stop posting such nonsense. I want to teach for a whole grocery list of reasons that do not pertain to pushing kids around:

1.) To know that I have indeed had an impact on others' lives, and dramatically so.
2.) To bestow interest in subjects I love (still deciding between teaching Mandarin Chinese or Social Sciences)
3.) To learn from the students.
4.) I like younger people better than adults. When we're young we acknowledge our immaturity; when we're old we scold others for being like ourselves.

[SocialismOrBarbarism]

For the most part I agree, I can think of a lot of teachers Ive had that certainly weren't qualified for their job. Most end up just becoming dictators of the classroom and put forth little effort to help their students truly understand and comprehend the material; instead they just give them work to keep them busy in order to put something in the grade book.

A large portion of the teachers I had didn't understand or comprehend the material themselves. They need to be given some sort of annual review. A few of the things that I learned include that North Korea is 30 miles away from Hawaii, that they discovered 4 new suns in the solar system, and the Earth is the center of the galaxy. That was in high school. :(

[Schrödinger's Cat]

It's a complicated process to become a teacher. The largest barrier, I think, is having to keep your idealism in check, and then realizing that it's financially difficult. Student teaching, in most states, takes a year out of your life, and with few exceptions you are not paid for what is essentially a full time job. This means that a lot of students would have to think about taking a fifth year in college - to get into a career that would otherwise pay less than what your major should allow. Private schools don't make it too much easier.

[punisa]

Good topic. Pardon me for saying, but I'll go so far as to state that quality of teachers greatly shape our chances for overthrow of capitalist system:)

Well its true if you think about it, good educators not only make students hard-learn stuff, but also encourage them to use their heads ! If the majority of the teaching army were aproaching their mission in a way comrade GeneCosta stated, we'd probably see the red flags around 2015 :thumbup1:

Unfortunatly in reality its not so, there are many, and I mean MANY bad teachers out there. I for once know a great deal of people who suffered greatly because of unqualified dictator-ish teachers.
This can be hell, especially if you don't know how to defend yourself.
Yes - DEFEND ! I've seen teachers that behave like hungry beasts, once they smell blood they'll eat you alive. In other words, they can bully a student how they please.

Teachers have too much power they regularly abuse. Holding a person's future at the strike of the pen - that's a lot of power.

Urgh, I could talk all night about examples I've witnessed (and felt) during my school years.
Failing you just because they don't like you etc.

Growing up in a less urban environment usually means even more psycho maniacs that pose as teachers.
I remember an episode (in elementary school) when a teacher told a guy to leave a classroom, which this one refused, teacher approached and fuking kicked him in the head - yeah a freaking full circle K1 ultimate fight kick in the head ! :laugh:
And the kid was only 10 !

In the end you have hordes of molested kids that have been abused and put down during their most important part of lives. Can you make them a hard working lefty humanist? Well some you can, but some are just gone :(

Don't want to sound all negative, there were indeed some briliant men and women, mostly at my college, who I trully respect even today. They were not marxists, but trust me, they played a huge role in me being aware of myself and my political affinities.
With these great people I learned ti investigate, reserach and seek answers to my burning questions.
I doubt I'd ever explore all the way to marxism to finally find all of my answers if it wasn't for them, especially in a very anti-communist country like mine.

We need good teachers, we need devoted and passionate individuals and above all we desperately need good people and humanists for the job ! :star2:

[Reuben]

Sorry but this is absolute rubbish. It wasnt that long ago that I was in a fairly bog standarad comprehensive and I must say the bulk of the teachers were wonderful. The overwhelming problem was a substantial minority of students whose parents had basically failed at parenting. There are many teachers who would be able to do an excellent job at educating the majori decent students were their work not disrupted by what is basicaly a degenerate minority. Now you could take the line that teachers should be supermen who can somehow 'get through to' and 'inspire' any every student however badl behaved. Or you could reflect on the fact that it is not the job of teachers to be constantly making up for the failure of shitty arents to instill a bit of basic socialisation.

[punisa]

Sorry but this is absolute rubbish. It wasnt that long ago that I was in a fairly bog standarad comprehensive and I must say the bulk of the teachers were wonderful. The overwhelming problem was a substantial minority of students whose parents had basically failed at parenting. There are many teachers who would be able to do an excellent job at educating the majori decent students were their work not disrupted by what is basicaly a degenerate minority. Now you could take the line that teachers should be supermen who can somehow 'get through to' and 'inspire' any every student however badl behaved. Or you could reflect on the fact that it is not the job of teachers to be constantly making up for the failure of shitty arents to instill a bit of basic socialisation.

There is no doubt that parents have a big part in this equation. In many cases you'll have a kid that's been screwed on all fronts - home n school.
Just like in any profession you have good n bad, I guess the topic was put about the teachers as they do a very sensitive job, usually underestimated.

I have no bleeding idea what kind of teachers you guys have/had worldwide, but I'll say a few words for my turf:
- Some of them were real maniacs (elementary n high school)
- Some of them were emotional wreck (starts crying in a full, but quiet classroom)
- Some were openly fascist and spoke a great deal on national supremacy
- Many (as to more then 80%) were corrupt and were easily bribed, sons n daughters of important politicians/businessmen/lawyers were always getting good grades despite the fact that some of those kids were retarded. Yep, I even knew a full blown mentally retarded dude who finished normal highschool - courtesy of rich papa.
-Many were young n poorly educated themselves and knew barely nothing about their subject

Bottom line: extra education must be forced upon teachers n parents. (crap, I sound fascist ! :lol:)

[black magick hustla]

Teachers are lame. Often they go into teaching because of some inferiority complex so they like to push kids around



lol you are dumb as hell. i bet you are one of those stupid dicks that are mean to their professors. you dont know what are they dealing with you knucklehead. its one of the hardest jobs in existence, and very necessary.

[southernmissfan]

I've had a mixed bag when it comes to teachers. I know last semester (I'm a sophomore in college), my General Psych teacher began spewing all kinds of Sean Hannity type shit around election day. But overall I would say most teachers in my experience have been decent people who mean well. Unfortunately not all of them know their subject as well as they should.

And just to follow up somebody else, I'm majoring in Social Sciences with a Teacher Licensure Track (basically I'll be able to teach not just history but also government and other classes) and adoloscent psychology is a required class, at least in my state.

[black magick hustla]

honestly all you anti-school people are boring as hell. ya folks think you are so irreverent and original but you sound like a bunch of children. the other day some dumb kid in this forums was whining about having to take algebra ii and how this is opressive. i am sorry if i wont cry for you about basic computations i learned to do when i was 15 years old. :rolleyes: i agree school shouldnt be obligatory, but for the love of god, is not as bad as you people make it seem.

[black magick hustla]

when i hated a class i just sat in the back, was quiet, and just started writing poems or reading a book. honestly, its not that hard.

[Circle E Society]

The real problem is the curriculum. It teaches kids to be good little Americans(sorry gotta speak from an American point of view not knowing anything else) and leaves little room for much critical thought no matter how much your english teacher will try to persuade you differently. All in all just wait till college its a lot better because well personally I rarely get bad professors, Ive had at least 4 outright leftist professors as well. Just hang on young comrades high school as an institution is bullshit for both students and teachers, but college will be fun if you let it unless you dont go which is perfectly okay too.

[ZeroNowhere]

As an aspiring teacher, I think I'm entitled to say: stop posting such nonsense. I want to teach for a whole grocery list of reasons that do not pertain to pushing kids around:

1.) To know that I have indeed had an impact on others' lives, and dramatically so.
2.) To bestow interest in subjects I love (still deciding between teaching Mandarin Chinese or Social Sciences)
3.) To learn from the students.
4.) I like younger people better than adults. When we're young we acknowledge our immaturity; when we're old we scold others for being like ourselves.
Well, of course, there are awesome teachers. Still, a job like being a teacher is something that is naturally, in the current schooling system, an attraction for people who feel like being authoritarian bastards.


honestly all you anti-school people are boring as hell. ya folks think you are so irreverent and original but you sound like a bunch of children. the other day some dumb kid in this forums was whining about having to take algebra ii and how this is opressive. i am sorry if i wont cry for you about basic computations i learned to do when i was 15 years old. i agree school shouldnt be obligatory, but for the love of god, is not as bad as you people make it seem.
I haven't actually seen you put up an argument yet on the subject. Well, nothing relevant. Also, cut the judgmental crap (and ageism), you moron.


Now you could take the line that teachers should be supermen who can somehow 'get through to' and 'inspire' any every student however badl behaved. Or you could reflect on the fact that it is not the job of teachers to be constantly making up for the failure of shitty arents to instill a bit of basic socialisation.
Or you could take the line that people shouldn't be forced into classes in the first place.
Otherwise, yeah, teachers should be supermen who can somehow 'get through to' and 'inspire' each and every student however 'badly behaved'.


Well its true if you think about it, good educators not only make students hard-learn stuff, but also encourage them to use their heads ! If the majority of the teaching army were aproaching their mission in a way comrade GeneCosta stated, we'd probably see the red flags around 2015
IIRC, Ferrer's school had helped get more black flags up.


A large portion of the teachers I had didn't understand or comprehend the material themselves. They need to be given some sort of annual review. A few of the things that I learned include that North Korea is 30 miles away from Hawaii, that they discovered 4 new suns in the solar system, and the Earth is the center of the galaxy. That was in high school.
Hell, you didn't learn about 'communism'? You're lucky.


I've gone through that process. For a short time I taught high school physics, and 7th and 8th grade math and science. To tell you the truth, I found the atmosphere of disrespect to be pointed in the other direction. I tried to be so nice to the kids, and they immediately took that as the signal for them to go wild, and they all refused to sit in their seats, or to face the front of the room, or take out their notebooks and pencils. I found that I had to act like a dictator to get them to remain sitting and be quiet.
Heh, reminds me of a time in Grade 9 when a few guys randomly got up and started tapdancing during a science lesson. It was awesome. :lol:

[black magick hustla]

Well, of course, there are awesome teachers. Still, a job like being a teacher is something that is naturally, in the current schooling system, an attraction for people who feel like being authoritarian bastards.


lol, teaching is a pretty shitty job. why would "authoritarian" people want it? a lot of teachers either like teaching or they studied something really worthless like physics (like me) and want to stay afloat somehow.




I haven't actually seen you put up an argument yet on the subject. Well, nothing relevant. Also, cut the judgmental crap (and ageism), you moron.

how can i argue against exquisite arguments like this:


Well, of course, there are awesome teachers. Still, a job like being a teacher is something that is naturally, in the current schooling system, an attraction for people who feel like being authoritarian bastards.




Heh, reminds me of a time in Grade 9 when a few guys randomly got up and started tapdancing during a science lesson. It was awesome. :lol:

so.........revolutionary son. *stops doing homework and plays videogames*

[black magick hustla]

and i will keep judging you because i hate dicks who are mean to teachers just because the poor lad has to do some kindergarden problem sets. :(

[punisa]

and i will keep judging you because i hate dicks who are mean to teachers just because the poor lad has to do some kindergarden problem sets. :(

You are not seriously thinking that we can develop the debate with such comments? :(
Comrade such attitude is not very teacher-like :lol:

You did make your point against idea of totally bashing the teachers as being all bad, which is obviously a dumb thing to say, but here you are somehow extending your commentary to the other extreme :blink:
Comrade we can not agree that all teachers are actually bullied by their students, that idea does not fly.

I can conclude that obviously you come from a country where the educational system is quite well developed, and thus luckily you don't even see the majority of anti-teachers elements we describe.

Education, style of teaching, years in school, the material that needs to be learned, overall qualification of teachers.. these and many other parameters greatly vary from country to country, so lets try to learn ourselves and get the broader picture on the topic.

[#FF0000]

Whatever, they should all be shot.

I'm sort of irritated that no one called you out on this shit yet. Allow me.

What the fuck is wrong with you?

[ZeroNowhere]

I'm sort of irritated that no one called you out on this shit yet. Allow me.

What the fuck is wrong with you?
Really? I thought that somebody already had. :blink:
Or at least called the post nonsense, seeing as I would expect that that statement wasn't meant seriously. I'm being too optimistic, I need to go and predict that we'll all die in three years due to overpopulation to make up for it. Heil Malthus!

[Invader Zim]

Looking back on my school days I have found myself respecting my teachers far more than I did while in school. Like most of the other kids i resented being there and the occassional minor injustice thrown upon me. However, I suspect that the majority of people on this board who moan about teachers are still in school. When you leave and get a job I guarantee than you will resent school, and your teachers, a lot less. School is can be a painful experience, but working is a soul destroying hell. I would advice, with all my heart, that you guys stick it out and try to get into university or college. Dropping out with weak, if not zero, qualifications is a one way trip to gross exploitation in the workplace. The chanses are you will do back breaking work, with meagre pay, for the next 40-50 years. Putting up with a few shitty years ins chool, and then going to college for a few more, which allows you to escape that future is well worth it. I went to a school reunion (50th anniversary of the school) the other day and all the 'bad ass kids' who hated school, with a few exceptions, are now subjected to god awful jobs which they, doubtless, won't escape from. That is capitalism for you, and it is unforgiving and it is exploitative.

As for teachers qualifications, the vast majority of teachers have at least one degree as well as a teaching qualification. That means that they have not only completed the same schjool courses you complain about, but they have been through at least four years of university. As such they will have been in education for the better part of 18 years. How much more training do you want them to have?

Personally I could never be a teacher in a school. I have a huge amount of respect for those who do. Teachers are perhaps among the most under-appriciated members of society. The job is hard, stressful and I suspect for the most part unrewarding. They have to deal with miserable little bastards who don't want to learn, and simply make their lives, and already challenging job, more difficult. So why don't you pause from moaning about your percieved hardships at the expense of domineering teachers and look at life from their perspective.

But to return to the topic at hand, teachers are indeed a mixed bunch. Some are excellent, others however were simply poor. The latter generally tended to be the type who were incapable of asserting their personality over the cass, and as a result they lacked any respect and the class simply ignored them. The result was, we didn't learn a great deal in those classes. I rarely ever came across a teacher who was vindictive. Though I am sure that some do exist.

[ZeroNowhere]

Dropping out with weak, if not zero, qualifications is a one way trip to gross exploitation in the workplace.
Back it up.


I would advice, with all my heart, that you guys stick it out and try to get into university or college.
Which one can do regardless of whether you're schooled or not.


Personally I could never be a teacher in a school. I have a huge amount of respect for those who do. Teachers are perhaps among the most under-appriciated members of society. The job is hard, stressful and I suspect for the most part unrewarding.
Of course. This is something that should be fixed.


They have to deal with miserable little bastards who don't want to learn, and simply make their lives, and already challenging job, more difficult.
Eh, it's not like the 'miserable little bastards' had a choice in the matter. I'm assuming that it's not genetic either.


So why don't you pause from moaning about your percieved hardships at the expense of domineering teachers and look at life from their perspective.
Well, yes, blaming the bad teachers is somewhat pointless. It's the same with police-bashing. On the other hand, one happens to also be oneself.

[CommieCat]

Invader Zim made some agreeable points.

Generally, I like school. I get to see my friends every day, and I enjoy learning. It took me being expelled from a couple of schools to see that, though. And I certainly don't think the education system is suited for all. Some of the most influential people in my life have been teachers, who ultimately went out of their way to see me as an individual and show genuine interest in my life.

But I think there are bad apples in every bunch. One of my best friends told me how her father was sexually abusive to her. In school they had creative writing sessions where she would write poems that were clearly showing that her father was abusing her. The response of her teachers? Don't write about personal stuff. It took one, fairly brave, teacher to eventually call the children's services & police which resulted in her being removed from her family, even against her wishes. But there's that duty that teachers have to their students which goes beyond the classroom to their student's wellbeing.

[Module]

Reuben and Invader Zim have said all that's worth saying, in this thread.
Teaching, especially in high schools, is a highly demanding and stressful job with proportionately shitty pay.
The idea that teachers have an 'inferiority complex' is just absurd. I know quite a few people who would like to become teachers, and the main reason they want to is because they want to help kids out, believe it or not! None of them have any sort of desire to 'boss people around', and I'm sure most students in any school (above the age of 13) would agree that bossing people around is definitely not a big part of the majority of teachers' jobs.
Since I started going to my new college last year I have had the pleasure of being taught by some really wonderful, intelligent and concerned human beings who work extremely hard, and who I have a great respect for. The complaints in this thread are some of the most absurd, immature and ignorant posts that I've read on this forum in a while. Please, grow up! :cursing:

[ZeroNowhere]

and I'm sure most students in any school (above the age of 13) would agree that bossing people around is definitely not a big part of the majority of teachers' jobs.
Homework. Though, to be fair, they don't really have a choice in the matter.

[Invader Zim]

Back it up.

I didn't expect to have to back up something that is so obvious, but nevermind: -

http://www.bls.gov/emp/edupay.jpg

In short, they pay you less to do harder work. You don't want me to prove that low payed work often tends to by physically demanding do you? I'm sure that if you get a minimum wage job you will discover that for your self as they rest of us have done.


Which one can do regardless of whether you're schooled or not.

Well good luck with that. But speaking as a person who is in his fifth year of university, I can count the people I know without A-Levels, or an equivalent level of qualification, on one hand.


Eh, it's not like the 'miserable little bastards' had a choice in the matter.

So they were born unpleasant and with a disruptive attitude?

And sure they don't want to be there, but that is because, seemingly like you, they obviously know no better.


Well, yes, blaming the bad teachers is somewhat pointless. It's the same with police-bashing. On the other hand, one happens to also be oneself.

You're comparing teachers to the police? Well done, you have made the most idiotic post of this thread thus far; quite a challenge considering some of the competition.

[BobKKKindle$]

Heh, reminds me of a time in Grade 9 when a few guys randomly got up and started tapdancing during a science lesson. It was awesomeWhy? When I was at school, I wanted to learn, and get good qualifications, I didn't want my classes to be disrupted by a bunch of fools. If someone tried to do that at university right now, I would be very annoyed. I can't think of anything more arrogant and selfish than deliberately trying to disrupt the learning of other students - if you don't want to learn than you can leave school and go get a job, or pursue your fantasy of getting into university without having any qualifications, but in my experience, most of the people at school want to learn, even if they don't always agree with the way schools are organized, and so there's no point in staying at school if your only aim is to annoy everyone else as much as possible. As Marmot said, if you don't like a class, just suffer in silence and find a way to pass the time - read a book, do some homework, whatever. I agree with Des and IZ that the comments in this thread are horrendously immature - I respect all of my teachers, especially when I think back to some of the things my classmates did or said, and I can honestly say that there are a few in particular who had an important role in shaping my politics and my intentions for the future, and, now that I'm no longer at school, I feel privileged to have been taught by them. When I go back home during the holidays I always make a point of visiting my teachers because, whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of teachers do care about their students.

What makes these comments especially shocking is that in many parts of the world, children would do anything to sit at a desk and learn all day, even if it means having to deal with a teacher, but they can't, because the infrastructure isn't in place, or their families need to send children out to work in order to avoid starving to death. A bunch of childish first-world leftists apparently thinks that getting an education is "oppressive"...

There are very few threads on Revleft that have actually made me angry, but this is one of them.

[Pogue]

Why? When I was at school, I wanted to learn, and get good qualifications, I didn't want my classes to be disrupted by a bunch of fools. If someone tried to do that at university right now, I would be very annoyed. I can't think of anything more arrogant and selfish than deliberately trying to disrupt the learning of other students - if you don't want to learn than you can leave school and go get a job, or pursue your fantasy of getting into university without having any qualifications, but in my experience, most of the people at school want to learn, even if they don't always agree with the way schools are organized, and so there's no point in staying at school if your only aim is to annoy everyone else as much as possible. As Marmot said, if you don't like a class, just suffer in silence and find a way to pass the time - read a book, do some homework, whatever. I agree with Des and IZ that the comments in this thread are horrendously immature - I respect all of my teachers, especially when I think back to some of the things my classmates did or said, and I can honestly say that there are a few in particular who had an important role in shaping my politics and my intentions for the future, and, now that I'm no longer at school, I feel privileged to have been taught by them. When I go back home during the holidays I always make a point of visiting my teachers because, whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of teachers do care about their students.

What makes these comments especially shocking is that in many parts of the world, children would do anything to sit at a desk and learn all day, even if it means having to deal with a teacher, but they can't, because the infrastructure isn't in place, or their families need to send children out to work in order to avoid starving to death. A bunch of childish first-world leftists apparently thinks that getting an education is "oppressive"...

There are very few threads on Revleft that have actually made me angry, but this is one of them.

Some teachers are still arseholes. A bit of joviality is welcome relief alot of the time, otherwise school become unbearable.

[benhur]

What Scarlet said is true in a sense, that teachers are those who want to boss little people around. And the teaching profession gives them a very good chance, because the whole 'dictatorship' thing now becomes legal.;) And they can also justify it by saying they're doing this for the good of the students, how convenient!

[ZeroNowhere]

I didn't expect to have to back up something that is so obvious, but nevermind: -

http://www.bls.gov/emp/edupay.jpg

In short, they pay you less to do harder work. You don't want me to prove that low payed work often tends to by physically demanding do you? I'm sure that if you get a minimum wage job you will discover that for your self as they rest of us have done.
Irrelevant. Most of those are poor kids who went to crappy schools, which tend to have huge drop-out rates. If a household is running on minimum wage salaries, a 16 year old son or daughter who can get a job at minimum wage, adds significantly to total spendable income. The fact that the majority of drop-outs come from similar situations has no impact on somebody dropping out of school for an education.
Actually, wait a minute. I had a feeling there was something fishy going on there. The highest unemployment is among those who have 'Less than a high school diploma'. Just because one drops out of high school, it has no effect on their ability to attain something higher, a doctoral degree, say, a bachelor's degree, or, hell, 'some college, no degree'. The graph's form is somewhat misleading, since it implies that the things go up in a linear manner, that is, that one needs to be a high school graduate to college, etc. There is no basis for this.


Why? When I was at school, I wanted to learn, and get good qualifications, I didn't want my classes to be disrupted by a bunch of fools.
Then don't force 'em to be there. And anyways, we weren't learning at the time, and didn't learn much from the course over the year anyways.
Interestingly, the teacher joined in. He was a cool guy, the fact that science lessons were shit and he had to be strict about homework, which he opposed, weren't his fault. However, I have no idea where he learnt tap-dancing. Though it was pretty cool.


What Scarlet said is true in a sense, that teachers are those who want to boss little people around.
That would be a false generalization.

[Invader Zim]

What Scarlet said is true in a sense, that teachers are those who want to boss little people around. And the teaching profession gives them a very good chance, because the whole 'dictatorship' thing now becomes legal.;) And they can also justify it by saying they're doing this for the good of the students, how convenient!

You will find when you take work where you are placed on a temporary contract, for lets say a weeks contract at a time. This allows the employer to effectively fire you at any time and they don't even need to give you a reason. All they have to say is, "Don't bother coming back next week, there is no work for you." As a result if they don't think you are working hard enough, simply don't like you, or just want to flex their dictatorial muscles you can be left without a job or employment.

As a result people are forced to do the most boring and often painful work for very little pay, put up with the humilating experience of dealing with a bullying dictator for a boss, and without any recourse.

Seriously, school and teachers aren't as bad as you think. They are specifically designed and regulated so they can't be.

[ZeroNowhere]

Seriously, school and teachers aren't as bad as you think. They are specifically designed and regulated so they can't be.
And some companies are less exploitative than others, such as those based upon sweatshop labour. Who gives a shit?
Also, who are these benevolent people who care about us enough to design and regulate school so that it's not crap?

[Killfacer]

This is a stupid thread, written by people who got bullied by their PE teachers for being fat.#


More seriously; most teachers are actually okay. The idea that they are authoritarian is frankly laughable.

[Killfacer]

Why? When I was at school, I wanted to learn, and get good qualifications, I didn't want my classes to be disrupted by a bunch of fools. If someone tried to do that at university right now, I would be very annoyed. I can't think of anything more arrogant and selfish than deliberately trying to disrupt the learning of other students - if you don't want to learn than you can leave school and go get a job, or pursue your fantasy of getting into university without having any qualifications, but in my experience, most of the people at school want to learn, even if they don't always agree with the way schools are organized, and so there's no point in staying at school if your only aim is to annoy everyone else as much as possible. As Marmot said, if you don't like a class, just suffer in silence and find a way to pass the time - read a book, do some homework, whatever. I agree with Des and IZ that the comments in this thread are horrendously immature - I respect all of my teachers, especially when I think back to some of the things my classmates did or said, and I can honestly say that there are a few in particular who had an important role in shaping my politics and my intentions for the future, and, now that I'm no longer at school, I feel privileged to have been taught by them. When I go back home during the holidays I always make a point of visiting my teachers because, whether you believe it or not, the vast majority of teachers do care about their students.

What makes these comments especially shocking is that in many parts of the world, children would do anything to sit at a desk and learn all day, even if it means having to deal with a teacher, but they can't, because the infrastructure isn't in place, or their families need to send children out to work in order to avoid starving to death. A bunch of childish first-world leftists apparently thinks that getting an education is "oppressive"...

There are very few threads on Revleft that have actually made me angry, but this is one of them.

Christ you must of been a barrel of laughs at school. The best thing about school was pissing about and doing no work. It was great fun and has had no effect on my qualifications (mainly because i fucked about whilst doing GCSEs which are unimportant, then cut most of the crap for A-Levels). I ended up with a level G in GCSE Drama :lol: Spent most of the time ripping up carpets, calling the teacher fat and charging about the room.

[Charles Xavier]

Teachers do a good job, there are some incompetent ones but there are incompetent people everywhere in society.

I support the teachers! They work hard and get little respect and you can study to be a teacher but there isn't always a good likelihood you will be hired full time you could be put on supply work for several years before landing a full time teaching position. Not to mention having to pay off student debt and trying to start a family.

Its not easy teaching, I support the teacher's right to strike and fight to better conditions.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Meh teachers are a mixed bag. We have some fantastic teachers and we have some propper shitty ones.

For instance are current maths teacher is brill in the way he teaches and swears at students and grosses people out by saying he takes Viagra.

But in the past we have had some fucking shite teachers who at the time would like to have seen deceased these include the teachers who made fun of the disabled girl (was in a car crash and now acts around aged 8) by telling the class she was a spastic and enc rouging people to bully her.

Hopefully he's in a grave now.

But most teachers fantastic , underpaid and treated like shit by the state and students.

[Jazzratt]

Teaching is one of the hardest professions, one of the most underpaid and undervalued (not quite as much as nurses but getting there). Teacher training is stressful, the work is difficult and unrelenting (you thought it was "oppressive" to do a few homework tasks? Imagine if you had to mark every piece of homework and classwork - in your own sodding time); it's made all the worse by a lot of students being utter shitheads (I will hold my hands up now and admit that I was an utter, utter **** at school). No wonder teachers have high instance of mental health problems.

The anti-education morons here are, frankly, laughable and it's a shame that (in the case of the british ones anyway) they won't learn why until they are standing in front of one of these:
http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/corporate/enewsviewer/news/issues/articles/thumbnail.asp?id=1664

[ZeroNowhere]

For instance are current maths teacher is brill in the way he teaches and swears at students and grosses people out by saying he takes Viagra.
Heh, we had a similar one for Maths. Mainly because he spent most of his time supposedly obstructing our learning. Of course, seeing as the Maths textbook has the answers at the back, I did manage to minimize time spent on homework. We also had an English teacher who set us homework to write a speech to teachers explaining why homework should be abolished, probably the only time that homework could be properly described as awesome. :D


The anti-education morons here are, frankly, laughable and it's a shame that (in the case of the british ones anyway) they won't learn why until they are standing in front of one of these:
Anti-education? Nobody here's anti-education.

[Demogorgon]

It really irritates me to see some people here being negative about education, to be sure most education systems have their flaws, and I will come to those in a moment, but those are not the fault of teachers.

I admit that when I was in school I could be an idiot at times, we all were I suppose. I wasn't that bad all things considered and when I liked a class or teacher, I was fine, but sometimes when I particularly didn't want to be there I could misbehave. I was at my worst in Religious Education classes, and that is one of the reasons I get so pissed off with anti-theists now, I see many of the worst aspects of myself in them. All in all I regret some of my behaviour at school now and respect teachers a hell of a lot more now that I have a more grown up outlook and a few years hindsight. Indeed, with the greatest of ironies, I am going to be starting a teaching job soon, though initially I will be teaching adults.

Of course the education system does have problems, teachers are put under too much pressure. The most obvious solution is of course to hire more teachers so that the burden can be spread a bit better, but with it being such a stressful job, it can be hard to attract people to the profession. I also take extreme issue with the obsession with constant formal testing. If I had my way, nobody would have to sit an exam until the ages of fifteen to sixteen. A skilled teacher can judge the progress of students perfectly well without formal testing and at any rate, the less time you waste on testing, the more you have for teaching.

However none of that justifies disrespect for teachers. To be sure, there are individuals who should not be in the job, some just plainly can't do it, and of course it has to be remembered that knowledge of a subject is not the same as the ability to teach it. These people, however, are the exception, not the rule. Teachers are doing a hard and stressful job for inadequate pay in order to try and benefit the next generation and that is worthy of great respect and admiration.

[bellyscratch]

I've recently decided that I'm going to apply to do a PGCE next year and am just finishing my application for it. Although I'm wanting to teach in colleges, possibly in universities too in the future, which is very different to teaching in schools i think.
I've had some brilliant teachers throughout my educational life, the best have been since I got to uni though, but even like in high school i had some good ones. However, there have been some terrible teachers along the way too, some were just basically dictators that just made learning horrible. Teaching is such a hard job though, so you cant just lay the blame on teachers, like metioned before the curriculum makes the teachers job harder than it should be. The whole education system needs changing really.

[BobKKKindle$]

Anti-education? Nobody here's anti-education. In order to get a detailed education in a particular field you need to go to university, and how do you expect someone to go to university if they drop out of the education system when they're still at school and don't have a decent set of qualifications? Don't pretend that you can get into university without qualifications because they'll recognize that you have some innate talent which places you above everyone else and gives you an automatic right to higher education - this may happen in a very small number of cases, but in general, universities look for A levels, or the equivalent, and if you don't have them, you won't be able to go university. It may not be fair - although that's a matter of debate - but that's the way it is at the moment.

If you really don't want other students to go through this apparently terrible ordeal of exploitation and oppression then you know what you should do? Become a teacher and do things your way! Oh wait, you're not going to that, because this whole "anti-school" thing is just a silly fad that shows how dislocated you are from real life and the concerns of other students.


Christ you must of been a barrel of laughs at schoolI could easily respond to this in an incredibly arrogant and elitist way, but I'm not going to. Let's just say that, given my current situation, and the fact that jobs are going to be very hard to get for a long time, I'm happy that I worked hard at school (and outside of school for that matter) instead of mucking about like you.

[ZeroNowhere]

Of course the education system does have problems, teachers are put under too much pressure. The most obvious solution is of course to hire more teachers so that the burden can be spread a bit better, but with it being such a stressful job, it can be hard to attract people to the profession. I also take extreme issue with the obsession with constant formal testing. If I had my way, nobody would have to sit an exam until the ages of fifteen to sixteen. A skilled teacher can judge the progress of students perfectly well without formal testing and at any rate, the less time you waste on testing, the more you have for teaching.
Well, yes, but it is rather effective, along with grading systems, in getting students competing with each other, and 'learning their place', one could say, which has proven so far to be a very effective method of dividing the working class. There's also, of course, the whole 'meritocracy' notion implicit in it. Hell, getting rid of those two things (perhaps some voluntary practice exams could be held in order to prepare students for universities. Perhaps competency tests for jobs, and apprenticeships and the like, and exams could still be used by universities if you wish) would probably enhance the educational value of schools, though still not over that of free skools, unschooling and the like. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem especially likely, especially during neoliberalism.


In order to get a detailed education in a particular field you need to go to university, and how do you expect someone to go to university if they drop out of the education system when they're still at school and don't have a decent set of qualifications? Don't pretend that you can get into university without qualifications because they'll recognize that you have some innate talent which places you above everyone else and gives you an automatic right to higher education - this may happen in a very small number of cases, but in general, universities look for A levels, or the equivalent, and if you don't have them, you won't be able to go university
Bullcrap. Unschoolers getting into universities such as Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Yale, hundreds of universities in the US, etc, aren't even exceptional occurrences now, nor even worth mentioning in unschooling/homeschooling magazines. I mean, come on, for US colleges, you can just use SATs, SAT IPs, and community college coursework if necessary. Universities generally make their criterion clear to you, and by making sure to document work to demonstrate knowledge, you should be able to get in. Not necessarily into your first choice, but hell, it's not like that doesn't apply to most high schoolers either. For that matter, it can mean more time for extra-curricular activities and the like, which get you brownie points, and a more unique application (note that 'homeschooler' is highly preferable to 'unschooler' or 'dropout' on these applications, but that's not a problem, just use the term). A Senior Admissions Officer at an ivy league college replied to Grace Llewyn's query (several admissions officers pointed out to her that their "non-traditional" students almost always do very well) about unschoolers joining the college thusly, "Candidates who have, as you describe, "taken care to meet your (our) admissions requirements other than attending school" and who are presenting compelling admissions cases, in their own right do very well in our admissions process and throughout their undergraduate careers at [our college].
. . For the majority of admitted students there must be something else [beyond academics] that sets the student apart from the rest. It certainly can and often does fall
within the nonacademic realm—a musician, an actor, an athlete, an artist, a community worker, an employee (to name only a few) who puts forth distinguishing credentials within
the context of our applicant pool. None of these activities must be school sponsored at all; thus, I do not see the candidate who is not trained within the school setting to be placed at
a disadvantage in our process."
Associate Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Washington University: "My first response to reading your letter was: "Where is this student? Does he or she exist? How can we get him or her to apply to Washington University?" I am being somewhat facetious; however, the short answer to your question is that we would most definitely be interested in hearing from a student such as you describe in your letter. We have never stood on standard, traditional preparation as the sole criterion for admission. As a matter of fact, a number of [such] students, many from home-schooled situations, have been evaluated and admitted.

There are many factors that indicate success in college for prospective students, and academic achievement in a traditional setting is but one. Leadership skills, ability to cope with new and different situations, the ability to synthesize information in creative ways, and a person's intense interest in a specific field all add to the likelihood of their success in college. I often encourage students with whom I speak during my recruiting activities to consider taking a year off between high school graduation and beginning college to enhance just those skills."
I don't really see any reason why getting out of school should make getting into a university any harder. If you were on the path to Ivy League in school, you can stay on that path outside it. If you were planning to go to a state university or community college, those doors remain open also. Then, of course, there are dual-enrollment programs, and the like. Hell, a homeschooler (unschooler in this case) Alexandra Swann, who completed her bachelors' degree from Brigham Young University at age fourteen (...) in 1985 through independent study. She had started at age twelve and worked for about three hours each day. After graduating, she began work on her masters' degree. So yes, certainly, taking 'Bachelor's Degrees' to mean 'people who have gone to high school and then university' is somewhat incorrect.


If you really don't want other students to go through this apparently terrible ordeal of exploitation and oppression then you know what you should do? Become a teacher and do things your way! Oh wait, you're not going to that, because this whole "anti-school" thing is just a silly fad that shows how dislocated you are from real life and the concerns of other students
"If you put a chain around the neck of a slave, the other end fastens itself around your own."
Perhaps for a free skool, though. If you really don't want workers to go through this apparently terrible ordeal of exploitation and oppression then you know what you should do? Start a business and do things your way! Oh wait, you're not going to do that, because this whole "communism" thing is just a silly fad that shows how dislocated you are from real life and the concerns of other workers.

Edit:

In order to get a detailed education in a particular field you need to go to university
...What. Weren't we arguing that university helped getting jobs or something defensible like that a second ago?

[BobKKKindle$]

There's also, of course, the whole 'meritocracy' notion implicit in itAre you suggesting that access to higher education should not be based on merit? Given that universities only have a limited number of spaces, and given that the amount of resources society can allocate to higher education is always going to be limited, it makes sense that those who are willing to work harder and show that they're capable of doing a degree should be allowed to go to university. Meritocracy does not exist under capitalism because students from higher-income backgrounds are always going to possess a series of advantages that increase their changes of going to university even if they are not as intelligent or dedicated as other students - most obviously, these students can attend private schools instead of learning in the state sector this allows them to obtain a better quality of education at the secondary level. Socialism would involve the abolition of private schools and the diversion of resources into education so every student has access to the opportunities and support they need to reach their full potential, allowing the best and brightest to reveal themselves - but the basic principle of meritocracy should still be used to decide who goes to university.

[Invader Zim]

Irrelevant.

On the contrary, it is perfectly relevant. You asked me to provide evidence that those without qualifications work in lower paying jobs, I provided it. If you didn't think taht was relevent then why ask me to provide evidence of it?


Most of those are poor kids who went to crappy schools, which tend to have huge drop-out rates. ... et al.

Now this is irrelevent.


Just because one drops out of high school, it has no effect on their ability to attain something higher, a doctoral degree, say, a bachelor's degree, or, hell, 'some college, no degree'. The graph's form is somewhat misleading, since it implies that the things go up in a linear manner, that is, that one needs to be a high school graduate to college, etc. There is no basis for this.

Of course there is a basis for it, because contrary to what you believe, you do require a degree, or similar, to do a Masters/professional degree. To do a degree you do need the relevent qualifications. To do A-Levels you neesd GCSEs, etc. While there are rare exceptions to this rule and they are just that rare.

Think of it this way, why should a university take a risk on you, who hasn't even finished school, when they can offer the same place to somebody with a proven record of ability? The real world under capitalism is a competition, and you vastly improve your odds in the competition if you stick in school an extra couple of years.


And some companies are less exploitative than others, such as those based upon sweatshop labour. Who gives a shit?


You will when you leave school with no qualifications and no prospects.

[ZeroNowhere]

Now this is irrelevent.
It's perfectly relevant to your figures.


Are you suggesting that access to higher education should not be based on merit? Given that universities only have a limited number of spaces, and given that the amount of resources society can allocate to higher education is always going to be limited, it makes sense that those who are willing to work harder and show that they're capable of doing a degree should be allowed to go to university. Meritocracy does not exist under capitalism because students from higher-income backgrounds are always going to possess a series of advantages that increase their changes of going to university even if they are not as intelligent or dedicated as other students - most obviously, these students can attend private schools instead of learning in the state sector this allows them to obtain a better quality of education at the secondary level. Socialism would involve the abolition of private schools and the diversion of resources into education so every student has access to the opportunities and support they need to reach their full potential, allowing the best and brightest to reveal themselves - but the basic principle of meritocracy should still be used to decide who goes to university.
No, that's not what I was suggesting.

[Invader Zim]

It's perfectly relevant to your figures.

On the contrary, elaborating on social trends explaining the causes of disparity in educational achievement in no way bares relevence on the pertinent fact of the matter; that employers are willing to pay more for, and give better jobs to, people with qualifications.

But whatever. If you think that school is a miserable irrelevence, which offers you no advantages, and only humiliation at the hands of wicked teachers, then I haven't the patience to correct you. You will find out soon enough for yourself.

[Demogorgon]

In addition to what i said earlier and my complete agreement with
Invader Zim, I should add that the current schooling system simply doesn't work for some people. While education should certainly be universal and compulsory it needs to be a bit more diverse, offering different kinds of educational experience depending on an individual child's needs.

Again though, the fact that it doesn't do this properly at present is hardly the fault of teachers.

[ZeroNowhere]

On the contrary, elaborating on social trends explaining the causes of disparity in educational achievement in no way bares relevence on the pertinent fact of the matter; that employers are willing to pay more for, and give better jobs to, people with qualifications.
Are you sure it couldn't have to do with poverty being self-perpetuating? Since these people would have often dropped out to support their families, they're certainly not going to be getting much opportunity to reach higher-paying jobs. Thus stating that 'dropping out of school with no qualifications' (that is, leaving school without a high school diploma) leads to a person getting bad jobs is false, it depends completely on the person and their socioeconomic status. Sad to say, yes, capitalism does confine this to a (decreasing) minority of families (though not only the capitalist class), which is a problem with capitalism, and with the free skooling movement not having much access to campuses (as well as 'free-er schools', which are basically just reformed schools), etc, though the Sudburies ('the unschooling schools') are doing rather well so far. And, in case you're wondering 80% of students there go on to colleges.


But whatever. If you think that school is a miserable irrelevence, which offers you no advantages, and only humiliation at the hands of wicked teachers, then I haven't the patience to correct you. You will find out soon enough for yourself.
I actually haven't said anything about 'wicked teachers', but fair enough.

[Guerrilla22]

Teaching at the secondary level is pretty much a thankless job. Teachers are necessary for so many reasons and they aren't exactly paid that well. If you live in a suburban or rural area the teachers you get are often the cream of the crop. They may be pricks sometimes, but that hardly makes them unqualified.

I went to a public school in a suburban town and I'm extremely thankful I had the elementry and high school teachers that I had. My uncle grew up in inner city Detroit where they have extreme shortages as far as public school teachers go and often rely on volunteers to teach.

[butterfly]

I completed years 11 and 12(equivalent of A-levels) in an adult learning environment. The basic concept there was equality, the students were on the same level as the teachers.
You could bum a smoke off them on break or go off to the pub afterwards, you weren't contained to the school grounds, you didn't have to wear a uniform. No detention, no yelling, no unnecessary authority.
You could actually have a laugh with these people.
I remember my phone went off in class once with the ring tone 'another brick in the wall'. You know the one that goes 'we don't need no education' and the teacher told me it was the best one he'd heard from a student so far :lol:
That environment spurred a passion for learning that had previously burnt out in public education, and can honestly say I learnt more in those two years then my entire secondary education.