The Plan.

[casper]

What is to be done?
Rough Rough draft.


I was in math and economy class and started writing the below.

it is A young attempt to decide what is to be done by a 18yr old me. It will need a lot more work.
I would appreciate criticisms.


Transition(anarchy)


1.Create a state of Increasing GDP and high wealth.
As described by Adam Smith in his “wealth of nations” a state of increasing national wealth creates higher competition for labor(not of labor). This results in higher wages for workers.


2. keep inflation down.
Price increases will need to be kept to a minimum, this is to ensure a high purchasing power.


Those two points will improve the material existence of people. It will also allow for the possibility of decentralizing capital and spreading the means of production to more people.


3.Education and propaganda.
If it is true that a high quality of material existence(HQME) is inversely proportional to feelings of desperation, fear ext. and that a revolutionary feeling is directly proportional to those feelings. Then how can the resulting inverse of HQME to revolutionary Feelings be combated?


Education Can show the system and the possible ways that wealth can be improved. Also once material existence is secured people will start to search for ways to satisfy needs higher up on Maslow's hierarchy. People are Egotists so we should appeal to their desires not to their sense of “humanity”.
The self-actualization need, is individual and self-directed, being able to self-direct requires a society of freedom. We can replace the revolutionary fever with intellectual understanding. The reason is but a slave of desire. It is time for the Meme war, the “war on Air”. It is only necessary to show how further decentralization of power is beneficial and to keep power from consolidating.


4 Increase in technology and Destructive innovation:
Technology lowers the cost of production and makes the means of production more accessible.
Technology improves the means of production.
Destructive innovation will help with #1 by creating new jobs, new methods and by challenging current power structures.
E-”governance” to reduce bureaucracy, help erode hierarchy by making the obstacles to direct democracy less impressive, and improve efficiency.


We will need better infrastructure. Some possible ideas include convincing the current government to create a program like N.A.S.A. But instead of landing a man on the moon in a decade. How about creating and implementing efficient low maintenance renewable energy. It may be possible to lower the cost of electrical power to very little. Combine this with a free Internet access and some of the obstacles to # 3 and E-governance will disappear.


6. Support cultural Socialism
Organizations of mutual aid such as habitat for humanity,food drives and other programs need our support. I think socialism must be mainly cultural to be successful, it can not be mostly imposed by government(although government can stand in the way alot) .

[Dust Bunnies]

I'm a novice on Marxism and such but it seems like 1 and 2 would not be post-revolution things to do. Wage slavery would be abolished right?

[casper]

its not post-revolution, its during revolution. yes wage slavery would be abolished eventually.(revolution doesn't happen over night) But we have to get there somehow. I'm wondering what the technical actions will be, the actual functions of society that will be invoked to get us there. The over all decentralized(but connected) actions/functions in/of society, bottom-up and not top-down per say, that has the potential to change the system, and how we can invoke those functions. Its a rough rough rough draft of very general ideas that came to me today. I'm not sure if their any good, but i i wanted constructive criticisms to see if others thought they were.

[danyboy27]

what really matter to me would be: is revolution would include dragging people out of their house beccause they are wealthy or well off and shot them in the forehead?

[casper]

i was thinking long term, propaganda warfare.
less blood and guts and more hearts and minds.
violence can be usefull, but only in certain situations, usually its a bad idea.
after all, can you picture gandi against stalin, or martin Luther jr. against hitler? Luther would of been put in the back of the oven, ok.

[#FF0000]

Revolutions don't happen according to plans. I'd say that any attempt to outline a strategy for a hypothetical revolution will prove to be completely useless nearly 100% of the time. Why? Because it isn't possible to account for all the conditions in a short generalized list. The conditions and factors involved with social upheaval in China will be different going to be different than the conditions and factors involved with social upheaval in Kenya, which will itself be different from social upheaval in Canada or Germany or South Africa or New Zealand.

It's sort of something people try to do but it's really really really useless.

[#FF0000]

what really matter to me would be: is revolution would include dragging people out of their house beccause they are wealthy or well off and shot them in the forehead?

No.

EDIT: Though, from a realistic standpoint, I'm sure it'll happen at least once during a Revolution. I don't think many people here would agree that a full-blown Red Terror is necessary though.

EDIT EDIT: well maybe the Marxist-Leninists would? I don't really know.

[casper]

Revolutions don't happen according to plans. I'd say that any attempt to outline a strategy for a hypothetical revolution will prove to be completely useless nearly 100% of the time. Why? Because it isn't possible to account for all the conditions in a short generalized list. The conditions and factors involved with social upheaval in China will be different going to be different than the conditions and factors involved with social upheaval in Kenya, which will itself be different from social upheaval in Canada or Germany or South Africa or New Zealand.

It's sort of something people try to do but it's really really really useless.
yea they will be different, but is there any universal string to pull? capitalism is basically a global system now, what effects it in one area should effect it similarly in another area right?(things like supply and demand, factors of production etc.)I don't want to account for all the conditions,(thats a really large number of conditions) I want to know the forces behind these conditions, and how we can shape those forces into desirable change.
psychology, economics, science, engineering, philosophy, etc. describe the underlying fabric of reality and provide an abstraction/model to understand sensation. I want to put that knowledge to good use, i want to do something with it, and i want to know what i'm doing. I want to plan out a flexible General set of goals that doesn't plan on accounting for all Conditions. I guess i want the technical, physical things to do, not only the more abstract understandings of the system.However, i must know how the actions are affecting the system over all, for it is ultimately that i want to change. So a general understanding of the system is necessary.

To scale it down and use metaphor: I want to be an "Economy-hacker" and start spreading the "open source software" that we have already developed(and should continue to) and do away with "microsoft".To do that i need to know what to do with in the "market", how to build image, spin, Performance ,support, manage, and deliver the "Product" for my "company". I do need to know about the functions of the market in general, but thats not all i need to know, i need to be able to sell in the market.

One thing i'm currently working on is my communication and social skills. The only reason i'm taking speech class now is because oratory and being articulate are the most powerful weapons any man can possess.

Basicly, i want to know what Immediate goals i should have, and what actions to accomplish those goals i should take, in order to help get to the long term goal of classless stateless society. The Plan right now is figuring out the specific plan.

[danyboy27]

No.

EDIT: Though, from a realistic standpoint, I'm sure it'll happen at least once during a Revolution. I don't think many people here would agree that a full-blown Red Terror is necessary though.

EDIT EDIT: well maybe the Marxist-Leninists would? I don't really know.

well then, i would fight any marxist leninist that will try to so such things.

i heard a lot of verry troubling stuff from some member of this board recently, stuff that i really didnt liked, people rationialazing mass execution of civilian, and a lot of dogmatic thinking concerning marx reading, apology for soviet union and chinese mass crimes etc etc.

[StalinFanboy]

what really matter to me would be: is revolution would include dragging people out of their house beccause they are wealthy or well off and shot them in the forehead?
Hella

[trivas7]

It [revolution] is sort of something people try to do but it's really really really useless.
And yet you expect that social conditions will improve as a result...

[Decolonize The Left]

yea they will be different, but is there any universal string to pull? capitalism is basically a global system now, what effects it in one area should effect it similarly in another area right?(things like supply and demand, factors of production etc.)I don't want to account for all the conditions,(thats a really large number of conditions) I want to know the forces behind these conditions, and how we can shape those forces into desirable change.
psychology, economics, science, engineering, philosophy, etc. describe the underlying fabric of reality and provide an abstraction/model to understand sensation. I want to put that knowledge to good use, i want to do something with it, and i want to know what i'm doing. I want to plan out a flexible General set of goals that doesn't plan on accounting for all Conditions. I guess i want the technical, physical things to do, not only the more abstract understandings of the system.However, i must know how the actions are affecting the system over all, for it is ultimately that i want to change. So a general understanding of the system is necessary.

To scale it down and use metaphor: I want to be an "Economy-hacker" and start spreading the "open source software" that we have already developed(and should continue to) and do away with "microsoft".To do that i need to know what to do with in the "market", how to build image, spin, Performance ,support, manage, and deliver the "Product" for my "company". I do need to know about the functions of the market in general, but thats not all i need to know, i need to be able to sell in the market.

One thing i'm currently working on is my communication and social skills. The only reason i'm taking speech class now is because oratory and being articulate are the most powerful weapons any man can possess.

Basicly, i want to know what Immediate goals i should have, and what actions to accomplish those goals i should take, in order to help get to the long term goal of classless stateless society. The Plan right now is figuring out the specific plan.

Well, if that's what you really want to know then you might start by discarding your entire plan.

There is only one functional plan for movement towards any sort of leftist revolution: the development of class consciousness.

The working class will launch, engage in, and fight, any leftist revolution.
This can only happen if the working class is highly class conscious and engaged in massive solidarity.
This is of the up-most importance for any revolutionary.

- August

[danyboy27]

Well, if that's what you really want to know then you might start by discarding your entire plan.

There is only one functional plan for movement towards any sort of leftist revolution: the development of class consciousness.

The working class will launch, engage in, and fight, any leftist revolution.
This can only happen if the working class is highly class conscious and engaged in massive solidarity.
This is of the up-most importance for any revolutionary.

- August

i really dont want to be mean or anything like that but isnt many of the religions trying to do similar things for hundred of years? i dont want to sound bad but that class awareness thingy sound a lot like what many religions are trying to do, you know, knocking on your door, explaining you why you must be saved, giving you a magazine about that etc etc.

in what class awareness is different from what the major religious currents that have been doing for thousand, hundred of year, beside the fact that marxism is more logical.

then again, i am just wondering, and i want in no way challenge or flame, just have some nice explanations.

[Decolonize The Left]

i really dont want to be mean or anything like that but isnt many of the religions trying to do similar things for hundred of years? i dont want to sound bad but that class awareness thingy sound a lot like what many religions are trying to do, you know, knocking on your door, explaining you why you must be saved, giving you a magazine about that etc etc.

in what class awareness is different from what the major religious currents that have been doing for thousand, hundred of year, beside the fact that marxism is more logical.

then again, i am just wondering, and i want in no way challenge or flame, just have some nice explanations.

This has no comparison to religion for the following reason:
Religion is preaching about something which
a) cannot be observed
b) cannot be proven
c) is highly irrational
d) has been proven false repeatedly throughout history.

Class consciousness is simple: it is the awareness of class as the primary material dividing factor among individuals across nations.

That is all.

- August

[danyboy27]

This has no comparison to religion for the following reason:
Religion is preaching about something which
a) cannot be observed
b) cannot be proven
c) is highly irrational
d) has been proven false repeatedly throughout history.

Class consciousness is simple: it is the awareness of class as the primary material dividing factor among individuals across nations.

That is all.

- August
tanks for answering to my question

[JimmyJazz]

No.

EDIT: Though, from a realistic standpoint, I'm sure it'll happen at least once during a Revolution. I don't think many people here would agree that a full-blown Red Terror is necessary though.

EDIT EDIT: well maybe the Marxist-Leninists would? I don't really know.

This is something I've been wondering about lately.

If people affix that "-Leninism" to their Marxism to indicate that they agree with his analysis of imperialism, and that they think this fundamentally changes revolutionary strategy, I can understand that (whether or not I agree with it). But if they add it to mean they agree with most of the stuff he did, including the terror, I can't hang with that. I wonder which is the case for most people who choose to take on the title of Marxist-Leninist.

[Rousedruminations]

Simple for a revolution to occur there needs to be violence, and terror if required.... and that of course depends on the environment in which they are in, for example tough opposition would require mass terror and insurrection. A Marxist-Leninist woudl aspire to just that - a class struggle involving terror, violence and destruction... (and if that meant shooting the wealthy and affluent in the head, after bringing them outside their house, so be it !)

[danyboy27]

Simple for a revolution to occur there needs to be violence, and terror if required.... and that of course depends on the environment in which they are in, for example tough opposition would require mass terror and insurrection. A Marxist-Leninist woudl aspire to just that - a class struggle involving terror, violence and destruction... (and if that meant shooting the wealthy and affluent in the head, after bringing them outside their house, so be it !)

so humm, why dont you take a rifle or any weapon and start assaulting rich people, like right now?

unless your a coward...

[casper]

ok, how about we explore the details.
how do we increase awareness?
and what does awareness lead to, after all being aware of something doesn't necessarily change much,for example alot of people are aware that hard drugs are dangerous, yet they still do them.
and also What will the people actually do during the revolution, if awareness and understanding eventually leads to it?(i think it will)
not necessarily the details of a hypothetical revolution, but what are the general paths that they will take, i know some of what they may try to do, but how will they go about it?

[danyboy27]

ok, how about we explore the details.
how do we increase awareness?
and what does awareness lead to, after all being aware of something doesn't necessarily change much,for example alot of people are aware that hard drugs are dangerous, yet they still do them.
and also What will the people actually do during the revolution, if awareness and understanding eventually leads to it?(i think it will)
not necessarily the details of a hypothetical revolution, but what are the general paths that they will take, i know some of what they may try to do, but how will they go about it?

tomk and me got a verry graphical way to see that.

-capitalist poressive rule
-?????????????????????
-revolution
-?????????????????????
-communism

now dont get me wrong, i dont say that to flame or anything, but that my global perception of it, and no matter how much question i asked to people the blank in that series always remained.

[#FF0000]

And yet you expect that social conditions will improve as a result...

The "It" I was referring to was "trying to plan or predict how a revolution will start and progress".

[Rousedruminations]

Social conditions will not improve immediately, no. there needs to be an extreme shift of assertiveness, strength and radicalism in the name of socialism and communism, nothing moderate .. that notion coupled with a revolutionary outcome is needed... our dominance in the world is weak now and a resurgence is only needed but for that to happened a radical approach should be taken !

[trivas7]

Social conditions will not improve immediately, no. there needs to be an extreme shift of assertiveness, strength and radicalism in the name of socialism and communism, nothing moderate .. that notion coupled with a revolutionary outcome is needed... our dominance in the world is weak now and a resurgence is only needed but for that to happened a radical approach should be taken !
This is pointless drivel, IMHO. Look to history if you wish to see the outcome of political revolutions.

[danyboy27]

Social conditions will not improve immediately, no. there needs to be an extreme shift of assertiveness, strength and radicalism in the name of socialism and communism, nothing moderate .. that notion coupled with a revolutionary outcome is needed... our dominance in the world is weak now and a resurgence is only needed but for that to happened a radical approach should be taken !

so you are planning to...nothing i guess?

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

This is something I've been wondering about lately.

If people affix that "-Leninism" to their Marxism to indicate that they agree with his analysis of imperialism, and that they think this fundamentally changes revolutionary strategy, I can understand that (whether or not I agree with it). But if they add it to mean they agree with most of the stuff he did, including the terror, I can't hang with that. I wonder which is the case for most people who choose to take on the title of Marxist-Leninist.

I think he had some interesting ideas. He certainly was a revolutionary, but outside of the civil war which naturally opened ethnic tension and all that I believe the USSR would have been radically different had he lived a few more years. But whatever history is full of those.

[casper]

do you guys think that if capitalism is regulated to prohibit monopolies then the resulting competition forces companies to be more people oriented(in relation to their consumers) in order to fulfill their bottom line?

[danyboy27]

do you guys think that if capitalism is regulated to prohibit monopolies then the resulting competition forces companies to be more people oriented(in relation to their consumers) in order to fulfill their bottom line?

well, i for myself believe that at the end, corporations are a really bad thing both for socialism and capitalism. hell, even tomk would agree that big fat corporations are bad for capitalism. the state should properly reward good buisness and punish bad one, corporation changed the natural order of fair competition, forcing buisnesss to become monstruous to survive in a world filled with jugernaut like boeing and lockeed.

banning corporation would not be a leftist move, but it would sure would be better for everyones.

[casper]

ok.
so we should rage a meme war primarily.
G: goal of meme war should be to
G1:improve material conditions
G2: Destroy(erode) hierarchy
G3: Increase autonomy(Freedom!)

1. raise class consciousness.
How:
1A.this forum is good i believe, internet "campaigning" or "marketing" could be a cheap way to spread propaganda.
1B. Perhaps being more open with our views in our everyday encounters if it won't cause too many problems. (this will require us to have good answers to common criticisms)
1C.Bill boards?
2. Work to change policy in the systems we are in
What policys?
2pA. Any that are authoritarian
2pB. Any that are exploitative
How:
2hA. Create a desire for change in our fellow man, perhaps by spreading leftist thoughts.
2hB. Maintain/create a sense of security and trust in us. People won't follow or listen to you if they don't trust you. instilling A sense of friendliness,and strength may do this.
2hC. Support and spread culture compatible with the left. Support art, literature, films, organizations,(to some degree, just for the sake of transition) government actions/politicians that are more leftist.


criticisms?
anything to add?

[casper]

"socialism"
"anarchy"
"communist"
those words have become full of meanings, but the most common meanings expressed with those words are not the same as the meanings one expresses with them who calls himself a communist or anarchist. It seems like not only the ruling ideas of a society are the ideas of the ruling class, but also the words of a society are the words as defined by the ruling class. The left has been encoding their ideas into words which are decoded into something completely different. The common usage of our words by others are different then how we use them.

should we develop new terms?
should we not try to rework an entire system of thought that has been deeply ingrained into the common culture. We can try to bring a more proper meaning to those majestic words. however, should that not be secondary to spreading what they stand for?

we need a new and better form of delivery.Its almost like we're speaking a different language. has any one else felt this way?

to use metaphor: A German teacher couldn't hope to communicate with a Japanese student, unless they could use the same language. imagine how difficult it might be to get the student to receive high marks or even attend classes if first he had to learn the language of the lecture.I think instead of trying to teach German to the student, or of using a common secondary language that the teacher should learn and use Japanese. are any of you aware of articles or words that contain the same ideas we would want to spread to raise class consciousness but is written in "Japanese".

i think we should start a new way of communicating with the world. people see the circle A and they think rebellious kids. They see the hammer and sickle and think of totalitarianism. They hear "socialism" and think big government that every one gets paid the same. and They hear "communism" and think of no-diversity and no freedom. They hear "anarchy" and think of riots and panic. wouldn't it be easier to use old words commonly used in a positive sense(and maby start a few new ones)then to use ones that have negative feelings associated with them and are so misrepresented?

[RGacky3]

the state should properly reward good buisness and punish bad one, corporation changed the natural order of fair competition, forcing buisnesss to become monstruous to survive in a world filled with jugernaut like boeing and lockeed.

Thats rediculous, in a global market the government can't afford to "punish" bad Corporations, they can punish executives, they can enforce certain laws (obviously ones that the Capitalist class as a whole accepts). The state does'nt force Corporations to become monstrous, thats the nature of Capitalism, you try and stop it while holding on to Capitalism its gonna bite you in the ass.

[danyboy27]

Thats rediculous, in a global market the government can't afford to "punish" bad Corporations, they can punish executives, they can enforce certain laws (obviously ones that the Capitalist class as a whole accepts). The state does'nt force Corporations to become monstrous, thats the nature of Capitalism, you try and stop it while holding on to Capitalism its gonna bite you in the ass.

i understand that the nature of capitalism, but still, you agree that corporation became just insane over the years.

[RGacky3]

i understand that the nature of capitalism, but still, you agree that corporation became just insane over the years.

Yeah, but the State is'nt going to fix that.

[danyboy27]

Yeah, but the State is'nt going to fix that.

still, nationalisation is a process that tend to destroy the corporation.

okay, its not like everyone where nationalising stuff everyday, but that a measure that governements take from time to time and its hurting corporatism.

[RGacky3]

still, nationalisation is a process that tend to destroy the corporation.

Its not gonna happen, unless the Capitalists want it to happen. If something is profitable the Capitalists are going to get their hands in it. If its not maybe they will let the State nationalize it, especially when its in their intrest. Whats happening in Venezuela and bolivia is something different, look at the Capitalist and wests reaction, it might as well have been a revolution.

Nationalizationg is'nt the answer, not only is it not the answer, the State has always been on the side of the Capitalists, because the Capitalists have the money, what makes you think they'll change?

[danyboy27]

Its not gonna happen, unless the Capitalists want it to happen. If something is profitable the Capitalists are going to get their hands in it. If its not maybe they will let the State nationalize it, especially when its in their intrest. Whats happening in Venezuela and bolivia is something different, look at the Capitalist and wests reaction, it might as well have been a revolution.

Nationalizationg is'nt the answer, not only is it not the answer, the State has always been on the side of the Capitalists, because the Capitalists have the money, what makes you think they'll change?

what about chavez and morales nationalisation?

[RGacky3]

what about chavez and morales nationalisation?

Thats what I was refering too. Chavez has had 2 military coups against him, his country has suffered a lot of political violence because of what he's doing. Bolivia as well. The Capitalists in those countries are panicing, don't think its going to be a clean transition to SOcialism.

[danyboy27]

Thats what I was refering too. Chavez has had 2 military coups against him, his country has suffered a lot of political violence because of what he's doing. Bolivia as well. The Capitalists in those countries are panicing, don't think its going to be a clean transition to SOcialism.

but he he done nationalisation, what potentially avoid this to happen in countries like us and canada?

[RGacky3]

but he he done nationalisation, what potentially avoid this to happen in countries like us and canada?

The Capitalists in the US and Canada are exponentially more powerfull globally than the Venezuelan Capitalists. Also the US is a Imperialistic country, meaning a lot of the Capitalists profit comes from other smaller countries. The US has almost a perfect dictatorship. European Capitalists are also extreamly powerful.

Also Nationalization has'nt solved the problems, the government can because just as monstrous as the Capitalists, just look at China.

[casper]

so, i got sent down to the office for like two seconds today. he basically told me what i was trying to tell the teacher(the entire west virgina state board of education vrs. Barnette thing) :) then i got sent on my merry way. flag insubordination.
so i've been writing some latly and talking to some friends,( trying to find ways to spread a desire for autonomy and the ability to see where its lacking when it should be present, so some early attempts at putting some things into words):
(is it wrong to attempt to appeal to one form of the idea your trying to change?)
anti-flag, pro-america
one of the central tenets of what makes America great is freedom of expression. A common ceremony to show appreciation and respect for "America" is to stand while reciting the pledge of allegiance. However, if the the pledge becomes expected, or worse, enforced by the majority of the population, what would be left there to stand for? The only proper way to stand for the flag in such situations is to refuse "protocol". "Protocol" shouldn't exist. Pledges are personal individual things and can only come from an individuals heart, all coerce socially enforced pledges are null. The common rank and file obsession with a rectangular piece of cloth is a clear sign that most Americans are not very appreciative of what makes America great. If you feel personally offended when some body doesn't follow protocol, then it is you who assaults the flag. if you are successful in your coercion, you win in your assault, for you destroy a little bit of America. America is more then a country, and the flag stands for more then a land. Those who do not understand that are not Americans, they are the enemies of America. Those people are the Greatest threats to America that it could ever have. They will silently replace America, but keep the title. They will destroy America from the inside out, A cancer full of zealous nationalism, and disgusting "patriotism". American is more then a nation, and the flag stands for more then the executive branch. Most importantly remember this of all else when it comes to such matters; American is more then a flag!

Insubordination!
who dares to name insubordination a crime?
insubordination is the life blood of liberty in times of oppression. Calculated planing, fiery revolts and cold blooded coup de tas are liberty's hands, feet and mouth in times of oppression. insubordination only exist in times of oppression for insubordination only is possible under hierarchy and hierarchy is oppression. so what is the true crime? oppression or the fight against it?

simple stuff, what you think?