We are in a revolutionary situation

[Charles Xavier]

it is indisputable that a revolution is impossible without a revolutionary situation; furthermore, it is not every revolutionary situation that leads to revolution. What, generally speaking, are the symptoms of a revolutionary situation? We shall certainly not be mistaken if we indicate the following three major symptoms:
(1) when it is impossible for the ruling classes to maintain their rule without any change; when there is a crisis, in one form or another, among the “upper classes”, a crisis in the policy of the ruling class, leading to a fissure through which the discontent and indignation of the oppressed classes burst forth. For a revolution to take place, it is usually insufficient for “the lower classes not to want” to live in the old way; it is also necessary that “the upper classes should be unable” to live in the old way;
(2) when the suffering and want of the oppressed classes have grown more acute than usual;
(3) when, as a consequence of the above causes, there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses, who uncomplainingly allow themselves to be robbed in “peace time”, but, in turbulent times, are drawn both by all the circumstances of the crisis and by the “upper classes” themselves into independent historical action.
Without these objective changes, which are independent of the will, not only of individual groups and parties but even of individual classes, a revolution, as a general rule, is impossible. The totality of all these objective changes is called a revolutionary situation. Such a situation existed in 1905 in Russia, and in all revolutionary periods in the West; it also existed in Germany in the sixties of the last century, and in Russia in 1859-61 and 1879-80, although no revolution occurred in these instances. Why was that? It was because it is not every revolutionary situation that gives rise to a revolution; revolution arises only out of a situation in which the above-mentioned objective changes are accompanied by a subjective change, namely, the ability of the revolutionary class to take revolutionary mass action strong enough to break (or dislocate) the old government, which never, not even in a period of crisis, “falls”, if it is not toppled over…

-Lenin

Are we currently leading towards a revolutionary situation?

[Incendiarism]

cool story bro

[RedSonRising]

Interesting, and definitely plausible. What opportunities do you guys see in this crisis which could provide small outlets for the advance of worker struggles?

[Devrim]

We are not in a revolutionary situation, and even if you take Lenin's explanation, part 3 hasn't been realised. There hasn't been a 'there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses'. There has been a slow return to commutativity after the dreadful years that were the nineties.

Devrim

[Charles Xavier]

Well maybe not here in Canada, but in various parts of Europe maybe? Iceland, France and Greece?

[Robespierre2.0]

Don't you think the exacerbation of the Palestinian and Afghan crises will eventually cause chaos in the imperialist countries? Though the American public is far from progressive, isn't at least a large section of the public sick of the violence caused in the Middle East by the U.S. and it's proxy, Israel? On the other hand, we have the far right, which is weakened in the United States, but gaining strength in Israel, whom the United States will assist if the Palestine crisis escalates. Either way, I think you'd have to be crazy not to think that the shit is eventually going to hit the fan.
:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:

[Psy]

We are not in a revolutionary situation, and even if you take Lenin's explanation, part 3 hasn't been realised. There hasn't been a 'there is a considerable increase in the activity of the masses'. There has been a slow return to commutativity after the dreadful years that were the nineties.

Devrim

We have turmoil in the class order on a massive scale. The capitalist class has been hugely fractured as they fight over which capitalists will be allowed to fail and who's profits would be subsidized by the state. Workers on average are looking in disbelief as they watch the bourgeois states throw trillions of dollars at capitalists while lay-offs continue to grow as the goverment talks of cutting back on social programs. The capitalist facade is falling down and workers are starting to at the real capitalist system and we can help them understand what they are looking at.

[Tzonteyotl]

We have turmoil in the class order on a massive scale. The capitalist class has been hugely fractured as they fight over which capitalists will be allowed to fail and who's profits would be subsidized by the state. Workers on average are looking in disbelief as they watch the bourgeois states throw trillions of dollars at capitalists while lay-offs continue to grow as the goverment talks of cutting back on social programs. The capitalist facade is falling down and workers are starting to at the real capitalist system and we can help them understand what they are looking at.

While the capitalists may be fighting amongst themselves to determine who survives and who fails, the capitalists as a class are still firmly in control. And while many workers may be in a state of disbelief in regards to the situation, only revolutionary action on their part will make this a revolutionary situation. And judging from the support for Obama (speaking just on the US) and his "savior" persona, we've still got our work cut out for us. While the support he's received from working people can be taken to show that they want change, the overthrow of capitalism was not part of Obama's program or a reason people voted for him. In other places of course, the situation is different, but I'd have to say-from where I'm at, at least-this is not a revolutionary situation. It has the potential to become one, but that's not the same as saying it is one.

[Devrim]

Well maybe not here in Canada, but in various parts of Europe maybe? Iceland, France and Greece?

No, not at all. Things are improving but this doesn't make a revolutionary situation. The events of Greece last year are not the events of Paris 68, Tehran 79, or Poland 81. Neither were these events revolutions. I do think there was a possible revolutionary situation there though. It does not exist today.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Don't you think the exacerbation of the Palestinian and Afghan crises will eventually cause chaos in the imperialist countries? Though the American public is far from progressive, isn't at least a large section of the public sick of the violence caused in the Middle East by the U.S. and it's proxy, Israel? On the other hand, we have the far right, which is weakened in the United States, but gaining strength in Israel, whom the United States will assist if the Palestine crisis escalates. Either way, I think you'd have to be crazy not to think that the shit is eventually going to hit the fan.
:thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1::thumbup1:


We are in a revolutionary situation

Look at the words that I have put in bold and think about the tenses. That is not to say that I agree with your analysis but we are talking about different things.

Devrim

[INDK]

It'd certainly be nice, but realistically we can't confuse every time economies fail or countries conflict from squirmish to war with a revolutionary situation. The capitalists have reform strategies too, I'd agree if workers were rising against an utterly hopeless, confused, and disorganized capitalist administration with no concept of how to recover. But unfortunately or not this isn't exactly reality at the moment. Every decline in capitalist society has potential to become a revolutionary situation, and I would also agree if the thread title was along the lines of 'We may potentially escalate to a revolutionary situation'.

[Psy]

While the capitalists may be fighting amongst themselves to determine who survives and who fails, the capitalists as a class are still firmly in control.

They are not firmly in control, the economy is no longer responding to the actions of the capitalists as class. The capitalists still can't stop the global market from crashing or slow the rate of capital destruction.



And while many workers may be in a state of disbelief in regards to the situation, only revolutionary action on their part will make this a revolutionary situation. And judging from the support for Obama (speaking just on the US) and his "savior" persona, we've still got our work cut out for us. While the support he's received from working people can be taken to show that they want change, the overthrow of capitalism was not part of Obama's program or a reason people voted for him. In other places of course, the situation is different, but I'd have to say-from where I'm at, at least-this is not a revolutionary situation. It has the potential to become one, but that's not the same as saying it is one.
The elections were back when the economy was far more stable, even bourgeois economists are starting ask if this is the end of capitalism which shows how vulnerable the bourgeoisie feel now.

[Tzonteyotl]

They are not firmly in control, the economy is no longer responding to the actions of the capitalists as class. The capitalists still can't stop the global market from crashing or slow the rate of capital destruction.

The capitalists still run things. And even if the global market keeps crashing, it won't just go away. It needs to abolished by action-revolutionary action-by the proletariat. So as long as the proletariat doesn't take revolutionary action, the capitalists will remain in control with a chance to regroup. To me that's a pretty firm grip.


The elections were back when the economy was far more stable, even bourgeois economists are starting ask if this is the end of capitalism which shows how vulnerable the bourgeoisie feel now.Far more stable? Banks collapsing, auto makers on the verge of bankruptcy and 10 straight months of job losses doesn't sound all that more stable than now. And while Obama's approval has taken a hit since he's taken office, he still has a pretty high rating according to polls. Either way, unless the working class does something revolutionary, this won't be a revolutionary situation.

[Psy]

The capitalists still run things. And even if the global market keeps crashing, it won't just go away. It needs to abolished by action-revolutionary action-by the proletariat. So as long as the proletariat doesn't take revolutionary action, the capitalists will remain in control with a chance to regroup. To me that's a pretty firm grip.

Right now we are looking at capitalism with a negitive rate of profit, if the rate of capital destruction keeps accelerating eventually the capitalists would overthrow capitalism for another class based mode of production.



Far more stable? Banks collapsing, auto makers on the verge of bankruptcy and 10 straight months of job losses doesn't sound all that more stable than now.

The crisis has greatly accelerated since then.



And while Obama's approval has taken a hit since he's taken office, he still has a pretty high rating according to polls. Either way, unless the working class does something revolutionary, this won't be a revolutionary situation.
World wide the working class has.

[Devrim]

Either way, unless the working class does something revolutionary, this won't be a revolutionary situation.
World wide the working class has.

What?

Devrim

[Psy]

What?

Devrim

World wide (that means globally) the working class has (meaning that the working class has reacted in some revolutionary manner).

[Devrim]

World wide (that means globally) the working class has (meaning that the working class has reacted in some revolutionary manner).

I understood what you were saying.
I meant what has the working class done which is revoultionary?

Devrim

[Psy]

I understood what you were saying.
I meant what has the working class done which is revoultionary?

Devrim

There has been strikes in Europe over in protest to cuts to working conditions along with student protests. These would eventually spread to the USA, and grow as the crisis deepens.

[Devrim]

There has been strikes in Europe over in protest to cuts to working conditions along with student protests. These would eventually spread to the USA, and grow as the crisis deepens.

But if we talk about the level of strikes and class commutativity in generally, it is still much lower than it was in the 1980s for example. Yes, there has been a reassertion within the working class of the willingness to struggle. The trend is certainly positive. However, that does not mean we are in a revolutionary situation. Certainly as I said earlier in the thread, we have seen nothing to compare with the Iranian mass strike of 1979 and the Polish one of 1981.

Devrim

[Psy]

But if we talk about the level of strikes and class commutativity in generally, it is still much lower than it was in the 1980s for example. Yes, there has been a reassertion within the working class of the willingness to struggle. The trend is certainly positive. However, that does not mean we are in a revolutionary situation. Certainly as I said earlier in the thread, we have seen nothing to compare with the Iranian mass strike of 1979 and the Polish one of 1981.

Devrim
The difference is the ruling class has yet to even slow down the acceleration of the crash. This crash is already the largest crisis capitalism has ever faced and it has yet to peak. Since we are looking at destabilization world wide we are entering a revolutionary situation.

[Saorsa]

This crash is already the largest crisis capitalism has ever faced and it has yet to peak

That is ridiculous hyperbole.

[Psy]

That is ridiculous hyperbole.
It is true there is no precedent for the scale of the current crisis, even the Great Depression had a higher rate of profit.

[Devrim]

But still, if we look back to Lenin's statement, we have yet to see 'a considerable increase in the activity of the masses'.

What we have seen is a small increase compared to the nineties. The beginning of a recover would be an apt phrase.

Devrim