The fight against fascism, is it dead?

[Blackscare]

What I'm saying is, is there realistically a modern threat from fascism? Apart from some marginal racist wingnuts, is it really something that could take root again?

I know historically it is our enemy, and ideologically it always will be, but as a coherent movement it seems to me to be mostly an early to mid twentieth century phenomenon.

What do you guys think?

Any ideas of where it could take root again, or pose a serious problem?

[Bilan]

Moved to Anti-fascism.

[Blackscare]

Ok, sorry, I didn't know such a forum existed (I mostly just do a new post search, so I don't know the layout of things)

[redSHARP]

its always there...its like a zombie outbreak, you might kill the first outbreak, but one needs to keep an eye out for new ones.

[StalinFanboy]

I think it's become a fetish, especially within the anarchist movement. I think fascism as an international threat to the working class is something we don't really need to worry about in today's world. Or at least right now.

However, at a local level, it is still very much a threat in some communities.

[Blackscare]

I think it's become a fetish, especially within the anarchist movement.

However, at a local level, it is still very much a threat in some communities.

I agree with both of those points. One of the ailments I see in the Anarchist movement (I am an anarchist myself) is the preoccupation with largely irrelevant shit.

[StalinFanboy]

Yeah. I mean don't get me wrong, I'm anti-fascist as fuck. But to spend all of our time focusing on anti-fascism takes away from other things we can be doing with our time.

We need to be focusing on our communities, and if fascists present a direct threat, then hell yes, mobilize everyone against them.

[Glorious Union]

All it takes is one economic disaster to topple the current political regime with a commonly hated scapegoat and its World War two all over again. And with the current American Recesion there is a slight possibility that may happen. Although, I wouldnt bet on it.

[Omi]

Go live in eastern germany and tell me again there is no fascist threat. Maybe not on a political level, and maybe our movement is more influential, but physically... A few well aimed punches from a large bonehead and youre back in the antifa buisness, I bet you this! And that happens almost every day, around the world.

[Dimentio]

Russia will probably go fascist/national socialist in a couple of years.

[Holden Caulfield]

Russia will probably go fascist/national socialist in a couple of years.

I doubt it, Putin and his right wing government are too strong. I suppose one could say that they are fascists :lol:

Fascism usually arises after the Left (moderate or not) have gotten into a position of relative power.

for the time being the Nazi thugs will remain that, they will be the safeguard of the capitalists system but will not be used unless the left threatens, which i doubt it will anytime soon.

now I've said this there will probably be a fascist coup tonight:(

[Holden Caulfield]

What I'm saying is, is there realistically a modern threat from fascism? Apart from some marginal racist wingnuts, is it really something that could take root again?

I know historically it is our enemy, and ideologically it always will be, but as a coherent movement it seems to me to be mostly an early to mid twentieth century phenomenon.

What do you guys think?

Any ideas of where it could take root again, or pose a serious problem?


And btw fighting fascism, the far right, nazis, right-wing populists (whatever you want to call them, i dont care its all semantics eh) is very important. Perhaps more so in Europe than the states, perhaps not I don't know what the situation is over there fully.

In Europe we keep getting reminders of the fascist threat waiting in the wings, the BNP in england have built quite a following, the NPD in German are perhaps not at that level but still a worry with fringe extremeists, in Italy the fascists sit in parliment as well as roaming the streets, in France Le Pen took the the Front National worryingly far in past elections etc etc

Now there may not be an imminent danger of fascist coups in these nations and the establishment of neo-nazi governments, it is important to remember the historical role of fascism. As the attack dog of the capitalists. When the left threaten it is the fascists who are utilised by the bourgeois to crush dissent, divide and control the working class and avert revolution.

So it is prudent to combat the seeds of any future fascist movements now, as an integral part of the class struggle. We must combat the aforementioned parties for this reason, and we must combat the finge nutzis like the British BPP and Blood & Honour in order to protect our communities, and stop people being sucked into these movements.

As for the 20th Centuary ideology comment, you could say the same thing about Marxism, sadly.

[Sasha]

I think it's become a fetish, especially within the anarchist movement. I think fascism as an international threat to the working class is something we don't really need to worry about in today's world. Or at least right now.


yet again all my presumptions about how americans view america as the only exsisting reality in the world are confirmd.
you never had real fascism over there and you dont have it now, but at the same time in eastern europe syndicalist activists, immigrants, jews, gays and other "untermenschen" are getting murderd on a regular basis by roaming bands of nazi thugs,
al over europe, east and west, (bordeline) fascist party are making huge gains (here in holland the extreme right might become the 3th biggest party at the next election).
i almost cant set foot alone and unarmed outside my nazi-free ghetto (i.e. amsterdam) because i'm in serious danger to end up in hospital or worse.

you know what, come this weekend to dresden with me and see the marching army of 8.000 + nazi's having their 3th reich memorial and tell me then again that anti-fascism is obsolete and a fetish.

fuck you....

[alhop10]

Nick Griffin is running to represent the northwest in the european elections in june and has a chance of winning. I know its not exactly and 'international' threat but is worrying nonetheless. Although I agree that there is some fetishisation of the fight against fascism, i think it is better to overestimate the threat than to underestimate it.

[Holden Caulfield]

Nick Griffin is running to represent the northwest in the european elections in june and has a chance of winning. I know its not exactly and 'international' threat but is worrying nonetheless. Although I agree that there is some fetishisation of the fight against fascism, i think it is better to overestimate the threat than to underestimate it.

Nicky will most likely win as well the ****.

Anyhoo, sensible anti-fascists don't fetishise anti-fascism, I can't speak on behalf of every anti-fascist but i see fascism as a obstacle to working class unity and an obstacle to the class struggle.

We only bang on about anti-fascism here as this is the forum for that activity, anti-fascism is 10% of a communists activity, the other 90% should be organising yourself.

I think my previous posts explain away any possible criticism of antifascism

[Pogue]

If you lived in one of the areas when the BNP come third or second in the polls you'd not be saying the same thing.

If you lived in Russia, where over one hundred people were killed by neo-nazis in a year, you would not be saying the same thing.

Not only is fascism the last resort of a desperate bourgeoisie, as organised groups of nazis/racists they pose a threat to our movement and people by means of going around in violent gangs and murdering ethnic minorities, homosexuals, leftists, etc.

Of course we need to fight them. Antifa is a resistance to fascism, hence the 'anti' prefix. Its an organisation of defence, defence of the community against nazi thugs. It wouldn't exist if there was no need for it to exist.

No pasaran!

[Dr Mindbender]

What I'm saying is, is there realistically a modern threat from fascism? Apart from some marginal racist wingnuts, is it really something that could take root again?

I know historically it is our enemy, and ideologically it always will be, but as a coherent movement it seems to me to be mostly an early to mid twentieth century phenomenon.


well good, lets keep it that way, eh?

[StalinFanboy]

yet again all my presumptions about how americans view america as the only exsisting reality in the world are confirmd.
you never had real fascism over there and you dont have it now, but at the same time in eastern europe syndicalist activists, immigrants, jews, gays and other "untermenschen" are getting murderd on a regular basis by roaming bands of nazi thugs,
al over europe, east and west, (bordeline) fascist party are making huge gains (here in holland the extreme right might become the 3th biggest party at the next election).
i almost cant set foot alone and unarmed outside my nazi-free ghetto (i.e. amsterdam) because i'm in serious danger to end up in hospital or worse.

you know what, come this weekend to dresden with me and see the marching army of 8.000 + nazi's having their 3th reich memorial and tell me then again that anti-fascism is obsolete and a fetish.

fuck you....

I realize that it's cool to ignore other posts in order to make your argument hold more ground, but I already stated that I think we should organize against fascism if they present a threat in your community. They present a threat in mine and we act accordingly. And expect others to do the same.

All I was saying is that it seems to me that a lot of people, especially within the anarchist movement, turn anti-fascism into something trendy. I've seen far too many kids focus too much on just fighting boneheads, and not any time on cultivating resistance in their communities.

[StalinFanboy]

If you lived in one of the areas when the BNP come third or second in the polls you'd not be saying the same thing.

If you lived in Russia, where over one hundred people were killed by neo-nazis in a year, you would not be saying the same thing.

Not only is fascism the last resort of a desperate bourgeoisie, as organised groups of nazis/racists they pose a threat to our movement and people by means of going around in violent gangs and murdering ethnic minorities, homosexuals, leftists, etc.

Of course we need to fight them. Antifa is a resistance to fascism, hence the 'anti' prefix. Its an organisation of defence, defence of the community against nazi thugs. It wouldn't exist if there was no need for it to exist.

No pasaran!
I live in an area with a strong KKK presence. I can't go downtown on my own anymore because of the chance of running into a group of boneheads and getting my head kicked in. For a while they were carrying guns. Racism, sexism, homophobia are all a strong part of the culture here, and I have to fight against it in the streets, and in my own head.

[Holden Caulfield]

All I was saying is that it seems to me that a lot of people, especially within the anarchist movement, turn anti-fascism into something trendy. I've seen far too many kids focus too much on just fighting boneheads, and not any time on cultivating resistance in their communities.

This is true to a degree, you often do come across people who substitute antifascistic lifestyle for the class struggle but this isnt the common practice in my experience.

This is also why we try to bring our arguments back to the place of anti-fascism as part of a wider class struggle

[StalinFanboy]

That is exactly what I was trying to say.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Nicky will most likely win as well the ****.


Damn... How sure are you?



I live in an area with a strong KKK presence


Yeah most people outside the states think the Klan is dead.

I cant believe they are that much of a threat though.



All I was saying is that it seems to me that a lot of people, especially within the anarchist movement, turn anti-fascism into something trendy. I've seen far too many kids focus too much on just fighting boneheads, and not any time on cultivating resistance in their communities.


The main threat from right-populist/neo-fascist parties is not that they will take power, but that they will gain enough followers amongst the desperate whites most hurt by capitalism that it becomes very hard for a revolutionary workers group to convince them that class is more important than race.

This could seriously hurt the prospects of a workers party trying to build its base levels of support.

And the solution to this is not to "Do a Respect" and try and use the tensions between communities to get the "Non white:rolleyes:" communities to supply the people and the votes.

We need to be the voice of reason uniting communities along class lines, it may be harder but its the only way to change the world.

[Holden Caulfield]

Damn... How sure are you?
Im not into makng predictions that could come bite me on the ass, but last time he came close and that was without the Cumbrian vote, now they have a large base of voters in Cumbria (a county with hardly any immigrants suprisingly) and they are blitizing the place with leaflets, paper sales, the 'truth truck' and even getting ol' one eye up himself



Yeah most people outside the states think the Klan is dead.

I cant believe they are that much of a threat though.

The acctual 'Klan' is dead, there are often groups of local nutter and bigots who use the name though, although they are not a cohesive organisation.



This could seriously hurt the prospects of a workers party trying to build its base levels of support.

And the solution to this is not to "Do a Respect" and try and use the tensions between communities to get the "Non whitehttp://www.revleft.com/vb/fight-against-fascism-t101231/revleft/smilies/001_rolleyes.gif" communities to supply the people and the votes.

We need to be the voice of reason uniting communities along class lines, it may be harder but its the only way to change the world.

exactly, this disproportinately pro-Islamic approach of RESPECT (and the SWP to a lesser degree) is something I dislike intensly.

[Relnicht]

reacting to your concern,
fascism excists in many forms, some may be more 'extreme' then the others. but the answer if we should take extreme rightwing people serious is very simple. i don't know if you studied up on history, but did you ever notice that slavery is only 100 years away?
humanity is FAR from civilisation, even though we have gathered the knowlegde. the problem is that people are sheep; nobody cares. you could come with conclusive evidence that 9/11 was set up by the government(which it was, take a look at Zeitgeist), and there would still be morons saying 'but i just can't believe the government would do something to their own people!' this is the only case in which you have to eliminate logic, because you might think it's not normal to kill people for money or oil, but they really, REALLY don't care if it's their own people or not. nothing will stand in their way.

"there is a war going on for your mind. if you are thinking, you are winning.
resistance is victory, defeat is impossible. you're weapons are already in hand. reach within you, and find the means by which to gain your freedom." (quote/Flobots)


What I'm saying is, is there realistically a modern threat from fascism? Apart from some marginal racist wingnuts, is it really something that could take root again?

I know historically it is our enemy, and ideologically it always will be, but as a coherent movement it seems to me to be mostly an early to mid twentieth century phenomenon.

What do you guys think?

Any ideas of where it could take root again, or pose a serious problem?

[griffjam]

i don't think there is a threat of fascists taking power anytime soon, however they are assaulting and killing immigrants and need to be stopped. and their marches and shows of force (while politically obsolete in the 21st century) intimidate the people of the neighborhoods in which they demonstrate

[Pia Fidelis]

I really do not see the same looming "fascist threat" that pretty much the entire community here does. I think that Fascism and National Socialism are really the least of our concerns. In no major western nation are they gaining any sort of foothold (yes, I am saying that while being fully aware of the representatives in parliament for the NPD and BNP), and really the small fragmented movement is opposed by all major western governments. Any public sympathies toward these ideals are really just reactions to the failing capitalist system. Capitalism is the opposing force we need to contend with. If there is a mudslide heading towards your town, the cockroach infestation takes a backseat.

As for the "fascist threat" that is widely proclaimed by members here, it is mostly based on second-hand information and propaganda from both sides.

[Melbourne Lefty]

and really the small fragmented movement is opposed by all major western governments.


This needs to be taken into account, the capitalist state dislikes these people as much as we do.

[Devrim]

In no major western nation are they gaining any sort of foothold (yes, I am saying that while being fully aware of the representatives in parliament for the NPD and BNP),

Neither of those parties have representatives in parliament either.


i almost cant set foot alone and unarmed outside my nazi-free ghetto (i.e. amsterdam) because i'm in serious danger to end up in hospital or worse.

I am sorry, but I just don't believe this.

Devrim

[bcbm]

I think as the global economic situation worsens we'll see a growth in both the far-right and the far-left, so it is important to be building our class and pushing them towards socialist solutions and staying one step ahead of the fash in organizing.

[eisidisirock]

The only facist's that is dangerous is in Russia. And Russia has awesome firepower.

[bcbm]

The only facist's that is dangerous is in Russia. And Russia has awesome firepower.

I think this is a vast simplification of what is going on globally right now.

[Jack]

With the economy failing fascists will take the opportunity to blame migrants for job losses and gain membership.

[Jack]

Neither of those parties have representatives in parliament either.


Devrim

The BNP holds one low level seat, taken from a Lib Dem I think. It's not in pairlament (sp?) however.

[Holden Caulfield]

Does militant anti-fascist activity over-exaggerate the threat posed by fascist groups in comparison to the level of institutionalised racism within the state such as the draconian deportation of refugees?

Following the latest local elections in England the BNP now have 55 councillors, even in the days of Oswald Moseley’s British Union of Fascists or the heyday of the National Front in the 1970s such a result would’ve be seen as unachievable. In Stoke on Trent it is thought that the BNP could be running the council in a matter of years. It is naïve to think that the BNP remains a fringe party; they are now well established in a number of areas in Britain.

That said it is true that the current Labour government have done more harm to communities than the BNP could even hope to do at the moment. It’s the Labour government that has eroded civil liberties through the Terrorism Act, it’s the Labour Party that has overseen the creeping privatisation of the NHS, it’s the Labour Party that has undertaken the latest assaults on working conditions and lower earners and it’s the Labour government that continues to deport refugees back to countries where they are likely to be persecuted.

However the strength and popularity of the BNP can also lead to the political agenda being pushed further right. The NF in Britain was all but destroyed not simply by grass roots opposition but also because the Thatcher government appropriated much of their support. Fascism is directly linked to the social and economic conditions of society and the Labour government have created the conditions where the likes of the BNP can flourish. By undermining the welfare state and job security while simultaneously pitting domestic workers against migrant workers the Labour government have created a situation whereby the BNP are seen as a radical opposition to the government. While in essence being a staunch supporter of the status quo and the state the BNP has been made to look like a progressive party in the context of Labours continued attacks on the working class..

For anti-fascism to be effective it must be part of the wider class struggle. It’s no good telling people to vote for anybody but the BNP in order to keep them out because invariably that means either voting for the government or voting for another party who would implement the same sort of policies that Labour has done. If anti-fascism is to be successful it can’t be divorced from the social and economic conditions that give rise to fascism, it must be part of the general struggle against capitalism.

Whilst anti-fascist groups should always point out that racism and fascism originate with capitalism and the state (or capitalist and statist ideas), it should not prevent us from using this as a get-out clause for fighting fascists. This is something many far left and anarchist groups do, and it is mistaken at best, naive and cowardly at worst. The threat of fascist organisations is a threat to me and you first; the organised working class are their first target. This has not changed in the least, from the origins of fascism as a distinct ideology in the 1930’s, to its present ‘euro nationalist’ form. In the past it was more of a direct threat, with fascists attacking left wing groups and venues, and being used to break strikes. Because antifascists literally beat them off the streets by the mid 90’s in the UK, this is no longer a focus for their activity -though they often can’t help themselves when they come across trade unionists or socialists – just look at the arrest records for even today’s “hands off” BNP. The threat the pose to us now is slightly more subtle but just as dangerous. By breaking communities and workplaces along racial and cultural lines, they destroy our class unity and make it twice as hard for class struggle activists to put our message across – often nicking left wing ideas directly, and putting a nationalist or racist spin on them.


Militant antifascism has always been about:
a) Defending the left and

b) creating a ground for the left to organise safely.

This hasn’t changed, regardless of whether the left is up to the job; we still need to make sure we lose as little ground to the radical right as possible, as it will be people like us first against the wall. All that said, we totally support people who focus on state racism and immigrant rights, and we have provided security for groups like No Borders. We are nonetheless separate groups for a very important reason: we are antifascists. Fascism uses racism: but racism can come from any source. We oppose fascism because it is fascism, not just because nine times out of ten it is racist. Combating every single occurrence of racism is not our goal, and antifascist groups which pretended they did have always ended up looking utterly ridiculous, like the ANL(Anti-Nazi League) picketing the movie Romper Stomper on the grounds it might give people ideas! Antifascism is a cause in and of itself, and should not tag onto other campaigns or left fronts.

[RASHskins]

As long as capitalism is around the fight against fascism will never end.

[Melbourne Lefty]

The NF in Britain was all but destroyed not simply by grass roots opposition but also because the Thatcher government appropriated much of their support. Fascism is directly linked to the social and economic conditions of society and the Labour government have created the conditions where the likes of the BNP can flourish.


I get the distinct feeling that its going to take a hell of a lot more than a Tory win to crush them this time.

Is this the impression of others here as well?

[Marxist]

I don´t think that antifascism is a pointless fetish , especially here in east Europe , try goin to Slovakia , i gotta feeling that ultra-right are quite outnumbering the left (atleast amongst the young).

[Holden Caulfield]

I get the distinct feeling that its going to take a hell of a lot more than a Tory win to crush them this time.

Is this the impression of others here as well?
Yes, due to the lack of (apparent) ideological difference between the 2 parties these days.


I don´t think that antifascism is a pointless fetish , especially here in east Europe , try goin to Slovakia , i gotta feeling that ultra-right are quite outnumbering the left (atleast amongst the young).
Indeed, the situation all across Eastern Europe is really really bad, and this shows why the seeds of fascism need to be crushed before they can grow into an unmanagable problem

[Fietsketting]

I am sorry, but I just don't believe this.

Devrim

Well, in his case its absolutely true.

[Holden Caulfield]

Well, in his case its absolutely true.

is that just coz he is a tosser or something?:lol:

[jaffe]

yeah :(

[Devrim]

Well, in his case its absolutely true.

I haven't been in Holland for about twenty five years. However, my wife was there last year, and she and her friends went all around Holland (speaking Turkish and looking Middle Eastern) and experienced no trouble at all, not even people making racist comments.

It makes me think that comments like this sound unbelievable:


i almost cant set foot alone and unarmed outside my nazi-free ghetto (i.e. amsterdam) because i'm in serious danger to end up in hospital or worse.

If members of ethnic minorities don't even notice the fascists, I doubt you are in as serious danger as you claim.

Devrim

[Sasha]

I haven't been in Holland for about twenty five years. However, my wife was there last year, and she and her friends went all around Holland (speaking Turkish and looking Middle Eastern) and experienced no trouble at all, not even people making racist comments.

It makes me think that comments like this sound unbelievable:



If members of ethnic minorities don't even notice the fascists, I doubt you are in as serious danger as you claim.

Devrim

well, since every nazi in the netherlands thanx to redwatch-like sites knows me as an jew, bi-sexual and one of the most active anti-fascists i, in contrast to most "minority's", am in more danger.
the fact that if i go out of town it is mostly activism related or to concerts with also a big fascist turnout (ska, hardcore punk, oi, hardcore techno) doesnt help.
but i guess i just have myself to thank, if i would only leave those poor nazi's allone they would not want to kill me and pick on immigrants or "fags" instead. :glare:
it must be so comfy in the left communist ivory tower

[Devrim]

well, since every nazi in the netherlands thanx to redwatch-like sites knows me as an jew, bi-sexual and one of the most active anti-fascists i, in contrast to most "minority's", am in more danger.
the fact that if i go out of town it is mostly activism related or to concerts with also a big fascist turnout (ska, hardcore punk, oi, hardcore techno) doesnt help.
but i guess i just have myself to thank, if i would only leave those poor nazi's allone they would not want to kill me and pick on immigrants or "fags" instead. :glare:
Oh, I forgot, it isn't about politics at all. It is about youth cult gang wars. At least that is how it seems.


it must be so comfy in the left communist ivory tower

As you know virtually nothing about my life, I will just take that as a cheap insult.

Devrim

[Pogue]

Guys don't fight your both two of the best posters on this forum.

Devrim sounds like one of the best leftists in terms of how active he is and his theory is in my opinion largely good (although I disagree with him on anti-fascism).

And in defense of psycho, militant anti-fascism isn't youth cult gang wars, its about fighting fascism and dealing with the natural reprecussions of this (being targetted). If you're as inovlved as he seems to be, yes, you're going to be a target. Everyones heard the stories, and knows things about things like gigs where you have to stay in a group to avoid getting started on.

Keep it civil guys.

[Sasha]

yeah, sorry.. i know devrim puts himself in danger as well, its just that i'm realy not intrested in moral highgrounds, i always fought in the trenches and always will.
although i can agree on a lot of the ideas of left communism its at the same time the diametrical opposite from my own pollitical ideas.
for me political theory is a means, for left communists (it seems) an end.

leaving cheap shots (hopefully both) aside, to get back on the discussion.

i became a target long before i got involved in anti-fascist activities, i can remember vividly coming home when i was a small kid and see swastika's and anti-semite abuse dabded all over our front door , just because of the last name of my mome next to the doorbell.
and when i wasn't much older i saw in the anne frank museum a book with all the names of jews taken away from holland and murderd during the war, and there was more than a whole page of names in very small print of people related to me.
and then i grew up and there where people carying the same symbols, slogand and ideolegy hunting for me, beating me up, stabbing my freinds, not because i was a jew (because they didn't know that back than) but just for being a punk, a leftist or making out with a boy.
the whole idea of there being an option of not being an active anti fascist is impossible for me to concieve.

so yeah, i try to follow the whole abstract debates here on revleft on things like united fronts, no platformism etc tec, and i might agree (partly) with a left communist analyses of that, but for me anti-fascism is first and for most self-defence and protecting those dear to me. and thats fucking real and sure as hell no
youth cult gang war.

becoming active (and against my choice somewhat prominent) in the anti-fascist movement hasn't made my life any easier (let alone safer) but just looking the other way would have not only be impossible for me, but also a huge insult to those (in my family) who gave their life in the strugle against fascism and nazism.

nie wieder, never again, nooit meer.

[RASHskins]

It is about youth cult gang wars.
Devrim
Maybe you should say that to all that dead Antifa comrades around the world. That it was just a youth cult gang war.

[John Lenin]

http://c3.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/49/l_f2a0e4b13ee1497df3ae0a279c988592.gif

[Blackscare]

Get out of my thread :mad:

[Blackscare]

:P..... no really

[Devrim]

Maybe you should say that to all that dead Antifa comrades around the world. That it was just a youth cult gang war.

Well obviously I can't as they are dead. This argument though is just an appeal to moralism. It is actually an argument that is usually used by patriots and nationalists about all the people who died for 'our country'. It says nothing at all about whether the anti-fascist movement does have a tendency towards what I would call apolitical gang warfare or not.

Devrim

[Devrim]

so yeah, i try to follow the whole abstract debates here on revleft on things like united fronts, no platformism etc tec, and i might agree (partly) with a left communist analyses of that, but for me anti-fascism is first and for most self-defence and protecting those dear to me. and thats fucking real and sure as hell no ' youth cult gang war'.

Except the debate is not abstract. Theory and practice do actually have a very real relationship.

The case of Turkey in the period approaching the 1980 coup for example is a very telling one. At this time the left and the right fought a virtual war. At its high point there were an average of thirty political murders a day in Istanbul alone. However, these events took place largely without the massive participation of the working class. Rather than being involved, the working class tended to look on as two factions fought it out. In that sense it can begin to resemble a gang war.

I think that today Anti-Fascism in Europe has some of the same features. I spent some time working in central Europe a few years ago, and unlike the impression that could be gained from some people on RevLeft, I didn't come across any fascists at all, not while attending political meetings, not while leafleting outside factories, not while walking the streets speaking foreign...

That said is doesn't mean that fascists do not exist in these places. I met one guy, whose brother had been imprisoned for killing a fascist in self defence*. It is important to have a real perspective of the threat that fascist groups hold, and how much danger they really are to workers and workers' organisations. I don't thing that your arguments in any way contribute to that.

Devrim

*Incidentally one of the few groups to support him was the left communist KPK who reject anti-fascism.

[Sasha]

well written post,
hmmh, its only speculating but maybe the reason that your actvities dont atract much attention is because of the nature of your pollitical work. maybe slow organising at the basis of workers is (justly or unjustly) not perciefed by the fascist as an thread or maybe, as its an toppic they are not realy involved in, its just completly of their radar.

as an autonomist i realy dont care that mutch about "the workers!!", i'm more bussy in community/neighborhood organising on a leftist basis, witch the fascist do see as an direct thread because it hinders their strive for "national befreite zones" and "freiraum" etc.
and maybe we, thanx to more spectacular way/appealing stlyle of our actvism, are more percived by the public as the leftists (i.e. the enenemy for fascists).
with about 2.000 active squatters/autonomists in NL we are probilly not even half of the non-parlemantarian radical left, yet we (together with sometimes the IS) get al the media coverage and political atention.

[Ravachol]

It seems this thread misses a lot of nuance imho.

First of all 'Fascism' has many dimensions and it can't be seen as a homogenous movement solemnly restricted to some boneheads waving swastika flags or obscure martial neofolk bands.

Fascism in it's broadest sense can be considered the ideological position merging (amongst others of course):

1) The Warrior-Cult, glorification of violence, war and expansionism
2) Ultra-conservatism and anti-modernism. Rejection of the enlightenment and the stressing of tradition, family and church/religion over rationalism and mutual-consent based social relations.
3) Cultural and often racial homogenity and social hierarchies mirroring the degree of purity in this 'homogenity'.
4) Elitism, anti-egalitarianism and autoritarianism. The rejection of democracy, workers' rights,etc.

Although movements merging all these elements together remain rather small (except for eastern germany and russia, where they can be considered a serious player in the political arena) they do seem to be growing, especially 'inside' the ideological 'space' offered by traditional (neo)conservatism.

Neo-conservatism, a large player in almost all political arenas shares many fundamental traits related to fascism, from the 'family, faith, fatherland' doctrine to the latent anti-modernism and rejection of egalitarianism.

In my eyes, these are latent fascist traits which are in need of hardline antifascism to combat them.

The biggest danger, imo, of what is seen as 'marginal fascism' by some here is that they claim to represent an 'alternative to capitalism', a 'third position'. So they could, especially in countries and areas where capitalism is showing it's roughest face, possibly become a major player when capitalism is reaching a crisis.

Not only is this a danger because of the obvious reasons (racism, exclusion of social minorty, totalitarianism,etc) but it also severly damages the workers (and the unemployed, students,etc the full 'multitude' so to say).
Fascism's economic policies are most aptly echoed by corporatism or what the growing belgian fascist movement calls 'solidarism'.
Not only does this economic system choke the labour movement, it caters only to the interests of the bourgoise and defends those interests with an iron hand to preserve the 'integrety of the national "corpus" or body or volksgemeinschaft' as they call it.

Hence, 'marginal fascism' might not be a major player right now (although there are countries where that is the case) but they surely can act as an avant-garde for fascist ethics for the established political players, as seen in neo-conservatism's ideals. That and their potential to pervert a crisis of capitalism into the establishment of a fascist state instead of a socialist/anarchist/marxist/etc society does make antifascism a necessity.

In short, kill the monster when it's small.

[JohannGE]

At a local level, (North West UK) It's not just the fascists that concern me.

It's the number of guilable recruits that they atract. I am sure the majority of people who support the bnp are more ignorant than fascist. Some of their views would be described as fascist by most of us but I believe they are often due to plain old fasioned bigotry and ignorance rather than any genuine political conviction. I accept that some might say there is in effect no difference.

At the moment they are mostly seen as a lunatic fringe but my concern is that if ever they gain a "foot in the door" of respectability, their influence might be difficult to predict. Griffin gaining credibility in the European elections for example would enable them to claim some mainstream coverage. There are a lot of very pissed off people full of years of anti-left propoganda from the tabloids, who might be atracted to someone claiming that he will make Britain a great place for Britons again.

If they are not kept in their current position, I dread a sudden flip occuring in their influence. I think these are unpredictable times and wouldn't want to take any chances with the bnp and the dumbed down UK electorate.

[Devrim]

well written post,
hmmh, its only speculating but maybe the reason that your actvities dont atract much attention is because of the nature of your pollitical work. maybe slow organising at the basis of workers is (justly or unjustly) not perciefed by the fascist as an thread or maybe, as its an toppic they are not realy involved in, its just completly of their radar.

as an autonomist i realy dont care that mutch about "the workers!!", i'm more bussy in community/neighborhood organising on a leftist basis, witch the fascist do see as an direct thread because it hinders their strive for "national befreite zones" and "freiraum" etc.
and maybe we, thanx to more spectacular way/appealing stlyle of our actvism, are more percived by the public as the leftists (i.e. the enenemy for fascists).
with about 2.000 active squatters/autonomists in NL we are probilly not even half of the non-parlemantarian radical left, yet we (together with sometimes the IS) get al the media coverage and political atention.

I suppose it all depends really as who you see leading and carrying out a communist revolution, the working class, or leftist activists/squatters.

Devrim

[Melbourne Lefty]

If they are not kept in their current position, I dread a sudden flip occuring in their influence. I think these are unpredictable times and wouldn't want to take any chances with the bnp and the dumbed down UK electorate.


And thats the point really, Influence.

If the BNP suddenly start gaining votes along the lines that the FN used to in France in a period of capitalist crisis then how long will it take for the Tories or labour to start stealing their policies in a big way?

Groups like the BNP dont have to win elections, and they know it.

And I dont know why no-one else here has mentioned that the highly racist PVV party led by the white haired gimp Geert Wilders was recently leading in the opinion polls?:confused:

Slightly serious even if he is only a racist and not a fascist isnt it?:rolleyes:

[Sasha]

wilders is a fascist i.m.o. a modern populist one but still a fascist

[Wanted Man]

What's "interesting" is that he differs from traditional fascists in some ways. For example, he doesn't have any "blackshirts" or other kinds of foot soldiers who impose his politics on the country and try to gain mass support. For protection, he relies on the state security, not gangs of boneheads. In fact, it's not even possible to be a member of his party. You can only give money, be a volunteer or sit in parliament for them.

Of course, anyone with a cursory understanding of fascism who takes a look at his programme can see that it's quite fascist. But it's in a much more right-populist and national conservative mold. And, at least in public, it's only interested in getting voted in and participating in government.

I doubt it will really become the biggest party in the next elections, but it has enough support that it will be important to ask how to deal with it. Wilders may not have foot soldiers, but things are getting worse for a lot of people. I keep being reminded of an Iraqi immigrant who lives in the heartland of Wilders' supporters. It's not much fun.

[Ravachol]

What's "interesting" is that he differs from traditional fascists in some ways. For example, he doesn't have any "blackshirts" or other kinds of foot soldiers who impose his politics on the country and try to gain mass support. For protection, he relies on the state security, not gangs of boneheads. In fact, it's not even possible to be a member of his party. You can only give money, be a volunteer or sit in parliament for them.

Of course, anyone with a cursory understanding of fascism who takes a look at his programme can see that it's quite fascist. But it's in a much more right-populist and national conservative mold. And, at least in public, it's only interested in getting voted in and participating in government.

I doubt it will really become the biggest party in the next elections, but it has enough support that it will be important to ask how to deal with it. Wilders may not have foot soldiers, but things are getting worse for a lot of people. I keep being reminded of an Iraqi immigrant who lives in the heartland of Wilders' supporters. It's not much fun.

Well i don't think classifying Wilders as a fascist is really correct. Don't get me wrong, he is a racist and totalitarian by all means (just take a look at his law-enforcement stances, zero tolerance towards opposition and how he intrinsically links Islam with immigrants) but on a theoretical level he isn't really a fascist.

He lacks the whole warrior-cult, old-order traditionalism and corporatist economics. I think he can be more adequately compared to a highly racist, ultra-populist crossover between Reagan and Tatcher.

His politics directly stem from Neocon thinkers like Bart Jan Spruyt and Andreas Kinneging who are in turn inspired by a combination between American neoconservatism akin to Pat Buchanan and European reactionary ultratraditionalism like Ernst Junger (who is actually a 'true' fascist).

However his economics are simply ultra neoliberal bordering on the 'libertarian' which is opposed to the corporatist ownership concentration in the hands of a small group of bourgoise (although the result will be largely the same). That and he claims to defend the 'western modern world' as opposed to 'old school' fascists like Vlaams Blok, Voorpost, MSI, etc who are anti-modernist in the tradition of Julius Evola's 'Revolt against the modern world'.

So in order to make a long story short, Wilders is indeed a racist and totalitarian undemocratic politician with fascist tendencies as becomes clear from his leitkultur and elitist stances but he can't be put in the same 'box' as Voorpost or Vlaams Blok.

In practice this is not nearly as important as it seems though since he does in fact pose a threat to not only a racism-free society but also to the rights and condition of the workers, students and jobless i.e. the full Multitude.

In combatting him we need a different strategy however, especially given his current high support among the 'silent masses' and the absence of foot-soldiers and any other form of non-parlementary, non-media activism.

[Comrade_Red]

Unlike many leftists, i don't look for fascism where i won't find it, nor do i base angst around it when most of society is against it as it is. i certainly get what you mean by it being a 'pointless fetish.'

[bcbm]

It's the number of guilable recruits that they atract. I am sure the majority of people who support the bnp are more ignorant than fascist.They're not ignorant. They're working people looking out to protect their interests and the arguments the BNP makes appeal to them. Our role as working class militants is to show them the flaws in the BNP's policies and build their class consciousness and our strength as a force against the bourgeoisie. Calling people ignorant, gullible, brainwashed, etc does neither.

[allix]

The far right in Austria seem to be gaining more support, the did well in the recent elections :cursing:

[Melbourne Lefty]

They're not ignorant. They're working people looking out to protect their interests and the arguments the BNP makes appeal to them.


They are indeed out to protect their interests.

The BNP convinces them that their "Race" interests are either more important or are linked to their Class interests.

We believe that class interests are the only real interests, they believe that race interests are the only real interests.

And as far as I can tell the general working class population believes that both matter to different degrees for different people in different areas.

The trick is to convince the most people to our interpretation, whoever does this with the most people wins. The major parties dont have ideology any more [or might as well not] and as such can be led to whcihever position gives them the most votes.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Indeed, the situation all across Eastern Europe is really really bad, and this shows why the seeds of fascism need to be crushed before they can grow into an unmanagable problem


does anyone have a run down on just how bad it is in eastern europe?:confused: