The CCCP.

[Brother No. 1]

Well Comrades what do you think of the CCCP and all of the polices it had from Atheism to working.

[danyboy27]

Well Comrades what do you think of the CCCP and all of the polices it had from Atheism to working.

Personally, i dont know the soviet union into deep, but i do know about the soviet Union military. From my understanding, the soviet union allowed freedom of speech too late, it should have been done during the krutchev times.

central planned economy could have been great if it would have been handeled properly, but the structure was so big it was a monster to control, lack of many products in shops and waiting line where one of the effect of the poor management of the central planned economy. Too much money where dirrected at the military too, from stalin to gorbatchev, billion of dollars where invested into the military for a war that never happened.

For america, it was not a big deal beccause of the free market economy, the governement didnt had the task to take care of every citizen, of every plant.
But for russia, an excedent of money pumped into the military had a great deal for its civilian population.

[Brother No. 1]

Yeah. Very good points on it. America I dont think cares for even for any citizen or just the rich ones.
The CCCP will be missed. But hopefuly it will come again and this time it will shine.

[NecroCommie]

I think that the soviet union with all its faults were alot better than any capitalist country. Thouhg I would have preferred a Leninist rule, instead of stalins reforms.

Der angriff gegen die sovjet-union ist ein stass im hertz der revolution. Therefore all argumenting against soviet union in the presence of capitalists, are strikes against the working class. (not a translation, but a continuation)

[Brother No. 1]

Yeah we all would have liked a Leninist rule but the CCCP made it point in the world and became the strongest country.

[NecroCommie]

Yeah I do acknowledge the good impact the SU had on international working class movement, I'm just saying even it wasn't perfect. (I guess no communist form is perfect though, complicated thing this is luke... Follow the force)

[Bud Struggle]

I was there--during Gorabachev term, so it might not be the classic CCCP, but it was a poor country compared to the US. Supermarkets--and they were supermarkets, huge stores like ours, in Moscow, had a huge empty space in the middle. The food was all in display cases around the edges. And just the basic staples, and then not always that.

My wife and I went into one evening and there was literally nothing to eat.

Also, the KGB was a REAL presence. The day to day fear was palpable, I was on a bus that went past the KGB headquarters (it was pretty much out in the open) one day and--this is pretty odd--everyone on the bus turned their head to look away from it. The KGB was never discussed--unlike the way we can discuss the CIA or FBI.

Also, coming from NYC at the time we noticed there weren't any stores--at least not in the buildings lining the street. They were just tall stone edifices. There was GUM, but that was most of it.

The funniest thing though was that it all (this was '79 or '80) had the feel of 1957. The heavy chrome on the subway cars, the really nice subway stations (NYC's subways were a shithole in comparison.) There were no good restaurants except in the hotels that catered to Westerners. The people were lovely but wary.

It really was another world in a lot of ways.

[Brother No. 1]

Well is humanity perfect. no then its Creations arent perfect also.

[Bud Struggle]

Well is humanity perfect. no then its Creations arent perfect also.

I'm not criticizing--I'm just reporting what I saw.

[Brother No. 1]

at the era you were in it was in its worst hour.

[Bud Struggle]

at the era you were in it was in its worst hour.

Yea. It wasn't like years before when the people were all holding together. In a way the atmosphere was every man for himself--a very Capitalist way of living. The velvet revolution just legitmatized what was already there.

The same is going on in China. Communism is gone there, even though they have the flags and the speeches, the big hats and the mottos. It's gone Capitalist.

[Brother No. 1]

Communism needs to be in those places for they need it. Communism was thir way of living and now some leaders have made mistakes and Capitalism as entered and ruined the societies.

[Brother No. 1]

The CCCPs Atheism is good the an extent. I am still thinking about the banning of chruchs of it seems during th Stalin era there was Religouis Freedom but after him those freedoms were torn down. Still Atheism in the CCCP was not that big most Soviets belived in this so called "God" as they were orthodox Christains but I am sure Atheism can work in all the former states if giving effort and time.

[danyboy27]

The CCCPs Atheism is good the an extent. I am still thinking about the banning of chruchs of it seems during th Stalin era there was Religouis Freedom but after him those freedoms were torn down. Still Atheism in the CCCP was not that big most Soviets belived in this so called "God" as they were orthodox Christains but I am sure Atheism can work in all the former states if giving effort and time.

they believed in god, but they didnt had any right to go to a church to practice their religious customs, and they where prohibited to posses any religious icon of some sort.

banning the church is not good, you cant expect from the general population to be completly atheist, spirituality is verry important for the most part of the population, you take it away from them, you make them terribly unhappy, you remove their hope.

you know, i am a moderate here, and most peiople who replied you on the subject where moderate so far, but expect more harsh criticism from hardcore commie and anarchist in the fallowing day.

[Brother No. 1]

Yes I know and I expect I will get into fights with them as well. The People can belive want they want but the Goverment thought what they were doing is right. The Church should have just been seperated from the Goverment and the People could belive in god while they support the Goverment. Really I wonder of the other comments from Restricted members will be.

[danyboy27]

Yes I know and I expect I will get into fights with them as well. The People can belive want they want but the Goverment thought what they were doing is right. The Church should have just been seperated from the Goverment and the People could belive in god while they support the Goverment. Really I wonder of the other comments from Restricted members will be.

you wont get much trouble from restricted member, maybe 1 or 2 but not much.

on the other side, people will tell you that the soviet union was not communism but state capitalism, that it was a degenerated worker state, that you are an evil stalinist etc.

[Brother No. 1]

Ha. Me a Stalinist. I am a Marxist-Leninist-Maoist. I favor the CCCP and if I am a evil Stalinist for that then they are idoits. I am a master on Soviet histroy so they are going to have a long agruement with me about what ever they talk about.

[Dust Bunnies]

I am a master on Soviet histroy so they are going to have a long agruement with me about what ever they talk about.

...

So what books have you read on the issue of the CCCP's history and living conditions, tell me about agricultural and industrial output through out the years.

[Brother No. 1]

you hit the spot that I really cant agrue with. The living conditions were bad and good. The Agricultrural has been sliding for the years after stalin. the Idustry had irs boom in the Stalin era and the Cold War but at the final years of the Cold War it was failing. Final we see here the Russian Federation idustry is not very good and productive.

[Rangi]

If you really think that the CCCP would have been a nice place to live then I suggest you move to a country that emulates the CCCP today. I would suggest China, North Korea or perhaps Burma. Go to one of these countries and start making press releases on some of the faults that the people in charge may have.

I would suggest that you attach a GPS nodule to your body so we can retrieve your corpse and find out things went.

[Brother No. 1]

Arent you the happy day scout. The DPRK has no or barely any socialist values left. the People Republic of china has gone Capitalist. Burma Dont know about Burma though. Now i am just saying the CCCP even though with its faults was a good place.

[Rangi]

I am saying that within the CCCP there was no free speech. The USA may be an evil capitalist empire but you can still write and say bad things against the government without risking being sent to a gulag or shot.

I'm really not sure if you are joking when you say that the CCCP was a good place. You are Polish? Didn't the CCCP occupy Poland for forty years?

[Brother No. 1]

Like I said Stalin has done good and bad things for the CCCP but not only him but the leaders after him. Yes I am polish and yes they did occupy Poland but better them then the Facist Germans. Dont comepare the CCCP to this american hell hole. Theres very much differences.

[Rangi]

I'd continue this debate but I'm afraid it's going nowhere. If you think the CCCP was a good place then move to the DPRK and you will be happy.

Please name 5 great things that the CCCP did for its people.

[Dust Bunnies]

Yes there are differences to the Capitalist Hell and the Deformed Workers State hell.

In America sure you are suppressed, but in America atleast looking the wrong way won't get you sent to the gulags, but the economic conditions are a roll of a die, sometimes you are well off sometimes you are not.

In the CCCP, even a slight error can screw you, sure you are secure, but you do not have the opportunity to speak freely. The CCCP and her satellites states were not very fun to live in. I've talked to immigrants from Poland, they did not think very highly of Soviet Poland.*

My goal is to make a real Socialist state, free from the deformations of Stalin and others like him.

Rangi, some Communists have the term "Deformed Workers States" for the 1930s example of the Soviet Union, or China before their Capitalist reforms. At the moment there are no Socialist places.

*They didn't think highly of Poland in the EU, but as one of them put it "Soviet Poland was good for the poor, now Poland has more rights."
Also another one said how everything was worse there, the soap was a sandpaper like brown soap.

I'm sure the poor would prefer Soviet Poland, but Soviet Poland nor any other Soviet place was Communist or Socialist.

[Brother No. 1]

I would never move to the DPRK. Very well comrade I will name 5 things. It gave jobs to all of the people. It allowed the education system to be better for the kids. Gave exllent healthcare to the People. Gave good sercuity to the People. it encouraged Antheism but did not force it on them.

[Dust Bunnies]

I'm pretty sure the CCCP forced atheism, I believe that many churches were burned down during Stalin and religious people could be arrested. I believe it was also a bit of a crime to be religious.

[Brother No. 1]

in Stalin era anything could happen but I do have info that Stalin allowed Freedom of Religion before the Great Patriotic War. seemed the people needed it at that time. the CCCP encouraged Atheism for most of existance.

[Dr Mindbender]

I am saying that within the CCCP there was no free speech.

So were you ever in the soviet union or are you just pulling assumptions out of your ass?



I believe it was also a bit of a crime to be religious.
Well not that i'm pro-soviet but I think the russian orthodox church did okay for themselves.

[Dust Bunnies]

So destroying churches is freedom? I have read that Stalin demolished quite a few famous churches during the 1930s.

[NecroCommie]

Those who think ex-easternbloc countries were some "hellholes" with terrible living standards and no rights, should cast off their imperialist thoughts, for such things are utter lies. They were countries like any countries, with different kinds of values, more often better than capitalist values. Ostalgia alone proves the cccp was more often than not a better place to live than its capitalist counterparts. A communist completely bashing soviet union is a class traitor, and a capitalist sympathiser.

All uncountered unexamined arguments against soviet union are victories for the capitalists, and therefore all comrades are reminded to keep their tongues in check while in the presence of class-enemies.

[Brother No. 1]

This is what the Soviet Conistutions Promised.

Soviet constitutions declared certain political rights, such as freedom of speech (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech), freedom of assembly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_assembly), and freedom of religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion). They also identified a series of economic and social rights, as well as a set of duties of all citizens. Nevertheless, Soviet constitutions did not contain provisions guaranteeing the inalienable rights of the citizenry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights), and they lacked laws to protect these rights. Thus, the population enjoyed political rights only to the extent that these rights did not conflict with the goal of building communism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism). The Communist Party of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communist_Party_of_the_Soviet_Union) alone reserved the authority to determine what lay in the interests of Communism. Finally, Soviet constitutions specified the form and content of state symbols, such as the arms, the flag (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_the_Soviet_Union), and the state anthem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Anthems_of_the_USSR_and_Union_Republics).

[Dust Bunnies]

The Soviet Constitution also had another part to it, that the "collective" takes priority. So speaking against the Communist Party or doing anything the Party didn't like was illegal. If I told you that you could talk about anything you want then slap you when you talk about a topic I don't like is that really freedom of speech?

[Post-Something]

I am saying that within the CCCP there was no free speech. The USA may be an evil capitalist empire but you can still write and say bad things against the government without risking being sent to a gulag or shot.

Hahaha!

Try saying "La ilaha ila Allah" in an airport an see how well you fair...

[NecroCommie]

Capitalist society is also enforcing wide censorship upon its citizens. Where ever communist parties gain large support, they are banned. In most countries racist and fascist parties are banned. This is nothing but ordinary class-warfare in which no side is better than the other. It is an ugly fact.

[Dust Bunnies]

I never said that Capitalism was good, I am a Communist, but is the CCCP good? No, the CCCP was horrible.

[Dr Mindbender]

Hahaha!

Try saying "La ilaha ila Allah" in an airport an see how well you fair...


lol ''dont tase me bro!'' :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bVa6jn4rpE

[danyboy27]

So were you ever in the soviet union or are you just pulling assumptions out of your ass?


so basicly if we havnt lived in the soviet union we cannot say anything about it?

right:rolleyes:

[Brother No. 1]

We cant make acusations about the CCCP unless we have been there.

[danyboy27]

We cant make acusations about the CCCP unless we have been there.

then we cant make accusation against the american in vietnam unless we been there
dont forget nazi germany!

i mean, we havnt been there right?

anyway, here is a study of the red terror.

http://www.massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?artpage=1-7

knock yourself out
:D

[Dust Bunnies]

We cant make acusations about the CCCP unless we have been there.

Other people have and I hear their stories.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

Hahaha!

Try saying "La ilaha ila Allah" in an airport an see how well you fair...

So you're equating being held by security for an hour or two with being sent to the gulag?

[Rangi]

Kolyma was a Stalinist forced labour camp that has been estimated to have had somewhere between 500,000 - 3,000,000 people die while working there.

They mined gold, silver, platinum and uranium for the Soviet Union.

Matthew Whites article Death Tolls for the Man-made Megadeaths of the 20th Century (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/battles.htm):



Kolyma, USSR (Soviet GULAG: 1930-mid 1950s): 500 000

Adam Hochschild, The Unquiet Ghost: asked four researchers. "One estimated [the death toll] at 250,000, one at 300,000, one at 800,000, one at more than 1,000,000."


Robert Conquest estimated it at 3,000,000 but this has been refuted as too high by most scholars and historians.

Conquest, Robert (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Conquest): The Great Terror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_Terror): Stalin's Purge of the Thirties. 1968.

Does it still sound like a great country comrade?

Saying that this did not happen is on par with the likes of David Irving and his holocaust revisionism. It is this sort of blinkered ideological horseshit that almost makes me ashamed to call myself a leftist.

[Revolutionary Youth]

Does it still sound like a great country comrade?

Well, you forgot to put in the historical facts that Stalin policies indeed helped a lot in the turning point of WWII. USSR survived the operation Barbarossa of the Germans and went on to play the key role in the defeat of Hitler. Even Winston Churchill had to say this "It was the Red Army which tore the heart out of the German army".
The Eastern Front was the critical battleground of WWII, the Soviet of Stalin organised a massive war effort which blunted and then reversed the tide of Germany victory, Soviet Union was the graveyard for German war effort.

It is this sort of blinkered ideological horseshit that almost makes me ashamed to call myself a leftist.No comrade, shame on you. You justify your leftist pride based on the reputation of a country? The left has nothing to do with Stalin or the USSR, Stalin twisted its ideology to create his own cult. Even if Stalin became a tyrant and committed genocide, the ideology of the left is still there on its own.

[NecroCommie]

Does it still sound like a great country comrade?

So what are you saying? People died in SU :blink:? Impossible I will not believe such propaganda!

Seriously speaking, Purges and massexecutions have always been playing a vital role in countries whose governments were trying to establish a stable situation. I am not saying that we should accept these killings, but there is nothing communist in purges. They are a normal part of any country, that has had recent dramatic changes in some levels of society. It is a human thing, not a communist thing.

As for soviet union being a good place to live? As mentioned previously (or was it another thread) numerous people from the stalin era actually praised Stalins rule. Most people had nothing to fear since most people were too unimportant, even if they had conflicting oppinions with the government. Stalin did bring upon vast industrialization, and a dramatic rise in living standards.

[danyboy27]

1918; August 31-September 4: ‘In response’ to the double attack that took place on August 30, 1918 against Moisei Uritsky, head of the Petrograd Cheka, and against Vladimir Lenin in Moscow, approximately 1,300 ‘bourgeois hostages’ held in Petrograd and Kronstadt prisons were massacred by Chekists

1919; March 12-14: Summary executions and drowning of striking workers and mutineers of the 45th Infantry Regiment in Astrakhan. At the beginning of March 1919, strikes broke out in Astrakhan for economic reasons (very low standards of rationing) as well as political reasons (arrests of non-Bolshevik Socialists), only to spread and degenerate into riots when the 45th I.R. refused to shoot at workers demonstrating in the town center. Mutineers joined strikers in raiding the Bolshevik party headquarters, killing several party officials. Serge Kirov, president of the Revolutionary Military Committee of the Astrakhan region, ordered "the merciless extermination of White Guard vermin by all means necessary." Cheka units crushed both the strike and the mutiny. Between March 12 and March 14, 2,000 to 4,000 strikers and mutineers were executed or drowned, thrown from barges in the middle of the Volga with stones attached to their necks. From March 15 on, repression struck the "bourgeois" who were accused of having "inspired the White Guard plot" of which the workers and soldiers had merely been the rank and file. Several hundred "bourgeois" were killed (Melgunov, 1927: 58-60; Silin in Chernov, 1922, p. 248-255).

1919; August: Mass executions of "bourgeois hostages" in Kiev. Estimated victim figure: approximately 1,800 "bourgeois" were killed in the two weeks before the White Army took control over the city (August 28). During the Bolshevik occupation of the city (February-August 1919) a total of 3,000 people were killed (Brovkin, 1994: 119-126).

those are only small glimpse of a bigger archive that have been set up by genocide and mass murdering researcher.
http://www.massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?artpage=1-7

the list of attrocities is countless, from mass rape to deportation, looting, forced labor, hostages executuions and others.

now dont get me wrong, i could reconize that a certain degree of violence was necessary, but in that case its verry clear that all that was done in order to solidiy the power around stalin and lenin, and to scare shitless any potential opponents.

[Glenn Beck]

Please name 5 great things that the CCCP did for its people.

1. Eliminating Tsarism
2. Implementing separation of church and state
3. Implementing a reasonable baseline standard of well being including: employment, education and medical care for all of its citizens.
4. Ending World War 1 (or rather the sacrifice of Russia's people in it)
5. Improvements in the status of women for example universal suffrage

Exactly five good things. All within the realm of fact. None of them particularly divisive given there are capitalist nations that have achieved most of these. Do I get a gold star now?

[Revolutionary Youth]

4. Ending World War 1 (or rather the sacrifice of Russia's people in it)

You missed out World War II.:)

[danyboy27]

You missed out World War II.:)

but with a lot of allied help.

Stalin was a poor military tactician with little regard for the life of his men.

[LeninBalls]

Stalin did modernize the army though. What do you think would've won against Nazi Germany, Trotsky's illiterate peasant riflemen or Stalin's T-34 backed mass producing army?

[Revolutionary Youth]

but with a lot of allied help.
Read my previous post, if there was a lot of allied help, then Churchill wouldn't say that.
However, that the Allies did support food, raw materials and industrial equipment for Soviet, since they knew that if USSR failed to achieve victory, then they would, in turn, be defeated. But the fact that mass production of those things does not actually win a war. Battlefields determine the result of a war , and the proof that Russian tacticians were extraodinary skillful can be seen here in the battles of Stalingrad and Kursk, a great example would be general Zhukov of the Red Army.


Stalin was a poor military tactician with little regard for the life of his men.Actually spetz, you should reconsider this assumption, since after the German advance was halted by Russian winter (late in 1941), Stalin and his military leaders used this time to reform the Red Army completely, they copied many tactics and ideas that the Nazis had used against them and added some of their own ideas as well, one of the most important was the "scorched earth" tactic, i.e. as the Red Army retreated, it destroyed everything that could not be transported, left nothing behind to aid the enemy.

Stalin did not have "little regard for the life of his men", in fact, officers in the Red Army were given greater freedom and independence to act. Stalin even banned the CP officials from interfering with military decisions.

[RGacky3]

1. Eliminating Tsarism

And replace it with?


2. Implementing separation of church and state

Yeah, and send religious people to gulags, they separated the church state and just replaced the church with the Party.


3. Implementing a reasonable baseline standard of well being including: employment, education and medical care for all of its citizens.

True, I'll give you that, living standards were relatively high under the USSR (compared to what they wouuld have been).


4. Ending World War 1 (or rather the sacrifice of Russia's people in it)

I'll give you that one too.


5. Improvements in the status of women for example universal suffrage

They did that, but it was'nt worth much :P, considering democracy there was a a sham.

[danyboy27]

Read my previous post, if there was a lot of allied help, then Churchill wouldn't say that.
However, that the Allies did support food, raw materials and industrial equipment for Soviet, since they knew that if USSR failed to achieve victory, then they would, in turn, be defeated. But the fact that mass production of those things does not actually win a war. Battlefields determine the result of a war , and the proof that Russian tacticians were extraodinary skillful can be seen here in the battles of Stalingrad and Kursk, a great example would be general Zhukov of the Red Army.


The T-34 design was sold by christies automobile, many plane improvements are due to technical information given by the allies, basicly, without those stuff the soviet union would have been fucking raped. But even if they would not had those thing, and even if the russian would not have pushed to berlin, they would have been able to bleed out the german troops. The russian role in ww2 was indeed really crucial, but its not really a matter of regime.




Actually spetz, you should reconsider this assumption, since after the German advance was halted by Russian winter (late in 1941), Stalin and his military leaders used this time to reform the Red Army completely, they copied many tactics and ideas that the Nazis had used against them and added some of their own ideas as well, one of the most important was the "scorched earth" tactic, i.e. as the Red Army retreated, it destroyed everything that could not be transported, left nothing behind to aid the enemy.


it would have been not necessary if stalin would not have ordered to assasinate his best officiers before the war. A lot of outstanding tactician died during the stalinian purges. one of them is considered the creator of airborne troops concept, where do you think the nazi learned that? all those generals formed the german before the war, then stalin feared a plot and killed all the greatest generals.

the scortched heart tactic dating from napoleonian war, the tsar used it again napoleon, destroying and hiding all food avaliable, burning all the wood avaliable.

the soviet had nothing to learn from nazi germany, wermarcht expertise came mainly from russia before the war, when advisor and expert formed german officiers and generals. in exchange, the german gave their industrial expertise to russia.

[Dust Bunnies]

So shooting any soldier that retreat (not one step back) was a good use of manpower?

[danyboy27]

So shooting any soldier that retreat (not one step back) was a good use of manpower?

dont forget sending hundred of soldier assaulting an extremely fortified place without airpower or armor!

[Brother No. 1]

Even the People helped the soldiers during the Great Patriotic War. So many Soviets died in that war and the eastern front seems the most leathal of all the fronts of the War. The Living standerds in the Stalin era seemed to be the best, unless i am reading the charts wrong, out of all the leaders eras.

[danyboy27]

Even the People helped the soldiers during the Great Patriotic War. So many Soviets died in that war and the eastern front seems the most leathal of all the fronts of the War. The Living standerds in the Stalin era seemed to be the best, unless i am reading the charts wrong, out of all the leaders eras.

i think the ukranians might disagree with you.

[Brother No. 1]

The Ukranians disagree with Russia still. Besides the Tsarist made their home there so its no wonder Anti-CCCP is there.

[Dust Bunnies]

The Ukranians disagree with Russia still. Besides the Tsarist made their home there so its no wonder Anti-CCCP is there.

But if the CCCP was such a worker's paradise then why would they hate Uncle Joe? The man who killed quite a number of them. BTW here is a library of Soviet oppressive crimes. http://www.massviolence.org/+-Soviet-Union-+?id_rubrique=6

[danyboy27]

But if the CCCP was such a worker's paradise then why would they hate Uncle Joe? The man who killed quite a number of them. BTW here is a library of Soviet oppressive crimes. http://www.massviolence.org/+-Soviet-Union-+?id_rubrique=6

the massviolence.org having some troubles i post you the seperate links

http://www.massviolence.org/Crimes-and-mass-violence-of-the-Russian-civil-wars-1918?id_mot=44&nav=y

http://www.massviolence.org/Mass-crimes-under-Stalin-1930-1953?id_mot=44&nav=y

[Brother No. 1]

Sorry your "Library of Soviet agression" didnt work. Well the Soviets have their own minds they can hate who they want.

[danyboy27]

Sorry your "Library of Soviet agression" didnt work. Well the Soviets have their own minds they can hate who they want.
even the poles


Their brutality deeply scarred Polish, Latvian, Lithuanian and Estonian societies who were subjected to sovietization; but for the occupying authorities, the policies that were put in place merely duplicated, almost in a routine manner, measures that were commonly applied to Soviet citizens, with no further violence threshold being crossed. Three main forms of repression took place under Soviet occupation-annexation: mass arrests, followed by labor camp sentences (approximately 110,000 arrested in occupied Poland); collective deportations (320,000 Poles, 80,000 Balts and Moldovans) where deportees were considered as "specially displaced" with the same assignment and labor regime usually applied to this category of Soviet citizens; mass executions of Polish elite (over 25,000).

1940; April: Execution of 25,700 Poles, officers, senior officials, members of the military, civil and economic elites, who had been incarcerated in the three "special camps" of Kozelsk, Ostashkov and Starobelsk. Katyn was one of several locations where these executions took place (Pikhoia & Kozlov, eds, 1997).

[Rangi]

I find it hilarious that people in this thread have moralised the deaths of tens of thousands of people for what is supposed to be the 'People's' cause.

The idea of "You have to break a few eggs to make a Stalinist omelette." just doesn't wash with me. How easy it seems for some to attribute the oppression and destruction of your fellow man merely as calculated losses for a greater cause.

They were probably all 'counter-revolutionary'.

You trivialise the pain, death and suffering of others with such speed and flippancy that it takes my breath away.

[Brother No. 1]

Pretty much you say all the countries that are here now that carry the name Socialist are not socialist. That is true most of them are not socialist and have turned Capitalist or Athourian. so far the DPRK and the PRC have gone from the Socialist way. Cuba is still a deiciding Factor.

[Dust Bunnies]

Sorry your "Library of Soviet agression" didnt work. Well the Soviets have their own minds they can hate who they want.

"Didn't Work"

Did you mean that factual basis cannot change your mind? Also Bureaucrats can hate who ever they want even if it is the proletariat?

[Brother No. 1]

No it said Error on the internet.

[Dust Bunnies]

Odd, it works fine for me.

[Brother No. 1]

Well sometimes this computer doesnt work. The americans cant make anything right it seems.

[Rangi]

Have you ever driven a Lada?

[Brother No. 1]

No.

[Dust Bunnies]

Well sometimes this computer doesnt work. The americans cant make anything right it seems.

Better leave your house and any other pieces of material you have, pretty much all of you have around you of American design. This is not a supportive message for America but you are being irrational, my computer works just fine because I know how to handle it. Communism is like computers, if you have a good OS (ideal) and you are smart, you can achieve a dream.

[danyboy27]

yea he was correct, for some odd reason, some hotlink didnt worked, but the previous ones i posted where working fine.

[Brother No. 1]

Yes i know that. Just that I really hate the american goverment so much. (sighs) But I better get used to them for it looks like i am going to stay here for a little more time.

[danyboy27]

the world is strange, i am chatting with a computer with an american design, manifactured in china, with some composites made in japan.

[Dust Bunnies]

You are overreacting Polish, if you were in the CCCP you would hate the bureaucrats (of course secretly since the KGB would arrest you otherwise). Government is bad.

"As long as there is the state there is no freedom. As long as there is freedom there is no state."- Vladimir I. Lenin

[Brother No. 1]

The Great Lenins word. Well The CCCP would have been better if Lenin had survived a few more years and if trosky wasnt assasinated in Mexico. But Lenin died in 1924 and Trosky was assainated in 1940. the CCCP fell in 1991. But the future can hold many suprises. you just have to try your best at what you are trying to do and maybe you will make it.

[Dust Bunnies]

Unfortunately the CCCP was doomed to fail, there wasn't enough international revolutions to create an international Socialism. Isolationism destroys any hopes of Socialism.

[Brother No. 1]

Yeah that does destroy Socialism. But we have learned from our mistakes and wont do it again. If we do another CCCP we will make it better.

[Dust Bunnies]

We should not cling to the CCCP, we should seek to establish a real paradise, let the old "paradises" rest in the books of history, learn from it and thats it, do not worship it as the worker's paradise.

[danyboy27]

i dont quite know how great the world would have been with lenin in power.

him and his buddies designed the great terror, issued execution order to massacer civilians, bourgeois hostages all that.

now the question is, do you really want to make something like that global?

[Brother No. 1]

Can any human make a true paradise. We Humans when we get power we tend to "play with it."

[Dust Bunnies]

Not Lenin, maybe something... nicer?

Also Polish, you don't give power into one person. Spread it around to each community and not to a political elite. "Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

[Brother No. 1]

Yeah thats what ruins the US goverment as well. Power should belong to all. The Power should belong to the people.

[RGacky3]

The Great Lenins word. Well The CCCP would have been better if Lenin had survived a few more years and if trosky wasnt assasinated in Mexico. But Lenin died in 1924 and Trosky was assainated in 1940. the CCCP fell in 1991. But the future can hold many suprises. you just have to try your best at what you are trying to do and maybe you will make it.

A dictatorship is only as good as the dictator, meaning its a bad system.

[danyboy27]

A dictatorship is only as good as the dictator, meaning its a bad system.

you know gacky, i think its been like a month that we agree on everyrthing, something wrong.