Fascists who recant their anti-semitism?

[Dr Mindbender]

Are fascists like the BNP forgoing their anti-semetic beliefs to further create an illusion of respectability? Many others, like the BPP or NF would not claim any sympathy towards the zionist or jewish communities by principle.

However, some elements of the BNP are quick to proclaim their zionist sympathies out of some faux solidarity against radical islamism.

This pro-BNP blog by the name of 'red squirrel' is laden with pro-Israel messages.
http://nationalisminourtimesofneed.blogspot.com/2007_10_30_archive.html


I beleive this is a problem for us as anti-fascists because if groups like the BNP are successful in losing their anti-semetic image it will make it harder for us to link them to their past.

[Holden Caulfield]

Hilter chose an unpopular religious/racial group, the Jews; used them as scapegoats for the problems of a nation and promoted their persecution.

Griffin chose an unpopular religious/racial group, the Muslims; used them as scapegoats for the problems of a nation and promoted their persecution.

I find the fact some of them still hang onto anti-semitism suprising tbh, but if you get into fascist politics no doubt you have bought into the whole Nazi loving scene at one point and assimilated outdated 'scapegoats' as your own as Griffin probably did when he was in the NF.

Support of Israel makes sense, they want to appear non-antisemetic to distance themselves from nazism, however they are more like nazis for their treatment of Muslims than they ever will be for their (hidden or open) anti-semitism.

The BNP are more similar to the NSDAP (with their positions and the context of what they preach) than the BPP or NF whp are fringe nut-job nazi loving mentalists.

[Dr Mindbender]

As far as i'm aware, the BNP have a jewish councillor. On other political fora i frequent they like to use this as a trump card to sheild themselves from any allegations that they are, or ever were anti semetic despite the fact that one of their activists in merseyside posted razor blades in envelopes to liverpool's jewish community.

[RaiseYourVoice]

Fascists are simply not consident in their ideology. In my city one day they demonstrate against the "islamisation" of europe, next day the demonstrate pro-hamas. They fullfill their role of fighting working class organisations and splitting the working class, trying to find a consitend line and actually arguing with what they are saying is pointless.

[Melbourne Lefty]

OK to be a Nazi you must be anti-semitic.

You can be anti-racist and still a fascist.

Fascism is about "the nation" coming together in a totalitarain state which "unifies" the classes and ends class conflict .

Fascism can define the "Nation" in a racist or non racist way.

So you can be a fascist without being a racist, you can be a fascist and a racist, you must be a racist if you are a nazi. You can be a racist without being a nazi however.


In my city one day they demonstrate against the "islamisation" of europe, next day the demonstrate pro-hamas.

Those would have been different groups. There are many right-populist groups like Pro-Cologne who attack muslims, from what I hear the NPD are much in favour of muslims [they "hate" jews you see...:rolleyes:].



The BNP are more similar to the NSDAP (with their positions and the context of what they preach) than the BPP or NF whp are fringe nut-job nazi loving mentalists.


dunno, they are genuinely moving away from anti-semitic nutjob theories. You look at the blogs most of which are just by grassroots members. I think the hardcore has mostly moved on or has changed with the times.

Personally I would say the BNP is ethno-nationalist/right-populist, both of which are very nasty, but they are not totalitarian in their ideology, [B]and thus are not fascist.

They are racists, which should be opposed at every step because an openly racist party which is not fascist is probably more dangerous in this day and age than one that is.

The BNP and groups like it in Denmark, Switzerland and Belgium are much more dangerous in terms of public opinion than the old style NPD/NF groups that like marching up and down.

[Holden Caulfield]

OK to be a Nazi you must be anti-semitic.
Indeed, but the trend of nazism (in the way the Conservative party, etc, has changed views over the ages) I would say has moved away from anti-semitism. Only nutzis cling on to this as a central pillar of their ideology.



Fascism is about "the nation" coming together in a totalitarain state which "unifies" the classes and ends class conflict [by destroying workers organisations].

Fascism can define the "Nation" in a racist or non racist way.Indeed it could, Mussolini did this to some degree, but the fact you consider the nation to be central then you automatically breed these kind of rascist, or perhaps xenophobic feelings. Its not hard to see how Mazzini's progressive nationalism leads to the ideas of the Futurists and then to Italian fascism and beyond. The Nation State exists in relation to other nations, here lies the conflict and the seed of rascism.


So you can be a fascist without being a racist, you can be a fascist and a racist.
I suppose that is technically true, but i do not feel it is realistic, once you define yourself against something then rascism comes, when you put your nation (a national group most likely) first then you start to see others as being less than it, and different from it.



you must be a racist if you are a nazi. You can be a racist without being a nazi however.
I would say that if you follow the teaching of Hitlers NSDAP then you will be a rascist,

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^all of this this just confused mumbling, ignore it here is what i wanted to say:



dunno, they are genuinely moving away from anti-semitic nutjob theories. You look at the blogs most of which are just by grassroots members. I think the hardcore has mostly moved on or has changed with the times.

exactly my point, like the nazis used an unpopular ethnic group as a scapegaot so do the BNP. The nazi blamed the Jews, the terrorists who burned the Reichstag, who take German jobs and money. The BNP blame the Muslims, the terrorists who bomb stations, take our jobs and benafits.

The fact they are anti-semetic is some residual bullshit left over from the formative years the leadership spent as members of neo-nazi parties.

[Killfacer]

Fascists who recount their anti-semitism are a larger threat than their brainless counterparts. Idiots like BPP are scum, but they will never acheive anything. Now idiotws wearing suits like Nick Griffin, he could become more of a thread than a couple of bone heads ever could be.

[Melbourne Lefty]

Fascists who recount their anti-semitism are a larger threat than their brainless counterparts. Idiots like BPP are scum, but they will never acheive anything. Now idiotws wearing suits like Nick Griffin, he could become more of a thread than a couple of bone heads ever could be.


Yup, mainly because they are not nazis.

I dont seriously think there EVER was a threat of an actual neo-nazi group taking power in western europe. People remember what happened with the nazis last time.

But if they take away the nazi gear and just become racist-right populists...

All of a suddent they can achieve much more than they could before.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the day Nick Griffin stands down from the BNP is a dangerous day for all of us. He is really the last prominant link to the Neo-nazi Tyndall days.

[Holden Caulfield]

I have said it before and I will say it again, the day Nick Griffin stands down from the BNP is a dangerous day for all of us. He is really the last prominant link to the Neo-nazi Tyndall days.
Griffin is smart, pretty media savvy etc, who do you think would replace him at the head of the BNP?

[Invader Zim]

The link between fascism and anti-semitism is a false one. While a great many fascists are anti-semitic not all fascists are and similarly not all anti-semites are fascists. Mussolini for example had a Jewish mistress, and a number of jews in his cabinet. His move towards anti-semitic legislation was not an ideological shift, but a political one because of pressure from the nazis. Of course Mussolini's extreme nationalism invited racism, particularly towards Africans (a point reflected by his foreign policies in Africa); but it did not manifest itself in the same destructive, virulent and ideological manner that we see in Nazis.

While obviously the BNP has had a long history of virulent anti-semitism I don't think that its modern membership necessarily hold the same prejudices historically held by those within its ranks. Rather that prejudice has shifted target, now it is Islam and, more specifically, arabs that makes BNP members apoplectic. It is a reflection of their extreme nationalism and the percieved threat to 'British culture', it is not however core to the ideology as it was, and remains in Neo-nazi parties. However the problem for us is that this ideological shift, removing race as a key ideological issue, seems more 'reasonable'. But it isn't, the BNP ideology still remains utterly unreasonable, the racist element is simply not given such emphasis.

But then again I could well be wrong, as others have suggested the ideology could still well remain unmutated as suggested here,a dn the 'new' BNP image may well be a facade. Either way, i agree this apparent shift, be it genuine or not, is exteremly dangerous.

[Holden Caulfield]

But then again I could well be wrong, as others have suggested the ideology could still well remain unmutated as suggested here,a dn the 'new' BNP image may well be a facade. Either way, i agree this apparent shift, be it genuine or not, is exteremly dangerous.

Firstly i just wanna say good post, and secondly the leadership are former[sic] neo-nazis, from neo-nazi parties and who have in the past expressed neo-nazi sentiments in regards to jews, white nationalism, hilter etc.
However the facade is probably only for this element of the party, i seriously doubt the majority of the BNP's support comes from people who are anti-semetic.

they are anti-Muslim, which is just as bad, too much focus is given to the, now redundant, anti-semitism of the BNP old guard.

[Holden Caulfield]

pointless to link to something in the same forum but I think people should peruse this (http://www.revleft.com/vb/they-playing-ati-t100777/index.html)

[redSHARP]

i cant think of any American fascist/racist group that has recanted on antisemitism; i hope this "recanting" fad does not spread! Americans are willing to listen to about anything!

[Dimentio]

Most Europeans today have not even seen Jews. Hence, most Europeans are indifferent to them since they are not a visible group. Moslems, on the other hand, stand out a lot. Hence, it is more rewarding to attack moslems for fascists, since a lot of Europeans fear and dislike the moslems.

[Holden Caulfield]

Most Europeans today have not even seen Jews. Hence, most Europeans are indifferent to them since they are not a visible group. Moslems, on the other hand, stand out a lot. Hence, it is more rewarding to attack moslems for fascists, since a lot of Europeans fear and dislike the moslems.

I would say a good proportion of us have seen Jews tbh, but i know what you mean,

the fact Muslims are a distinct group is why the are the chosen scapegoat, much like Jews in europe were in the early 20th Centuary (and before this as well obviously)

[Melbourne Lefty]

the BNP has had a long history of virulent anti-semitism

Oh yah!

Thats why its so scary that they are turning around on it, when a group is anti-semitic you can easily call them nazis and the average joe on the street will agree in a heartbeat.

When they come out and support Israel it makes things a little more tricky.


I don't think that its modern membership necessarily hold the same prejudices historically held by those within its ranks.

The BNP in the late 90s had 1000 members and most of those were just paper. They now have just under 10,000 with a high turnover. Its very likely that very few of the people in the party today outside the leadership were even there 5 years ago. And they were recruited to a party that they dont consider to be anti-semitic. If someone handed them a copy of Mein Kampf at a BNP meeting they would probably run a mile.


now it is Islam and, more specifically, arabs that makes BNP members apoplectic.

I thought it was mainly Pakistanis as the muslim scapegoat in the UK?


it is not however core to the ideology as it was, and remains in Neo-nazi parties.

Yes. It is impossible for a party that sides [implicitly or not] with the Zionists to be neo-nazi. Not surprisingly given the views of many zionists it does nothing to stop them being racist.



However the problem for us is that this ideological shift, removing race as a key ideological issue, seems more 'reasonable'. But it isn't, the BNP ideology still remains utterly unreasonable, the racist element is simply not given such emphasis.


Unreasonable to enlightened people, but there are a hell of a lot of very scared workers out there right now thanks to the capitalists greed.

[Sasha]

Yes. It is impossible for a party that sides [implicitly or not] with the Zionists to be neo-nazi.


never heard about the nasofi (http://www.nasofi.blogspot.com/)i guess? :crying:

[Melbourne Lefty]

http://www.nasofi.blogspot.com/

My god are they real?

I seriously doubt it.

They look like a blog of one organisation.

Funny how some peoples minds work though.

[Devrim]

Most Europeans today have not even seen Jews. Hence, most Europeans are indifferent to them since they are not a visible group. Moslems, on the other hand, stand out a lot. Hence, it is more rewarding to attack moslems for fascists, since a lot of Europeans fear and dislike the moslems.I would say a good proportion of us have seen Jews tbh, but i know what you mean,

the fact Muslims are a distinct group is why the are the chosen scapegoat, much like Jews in europe were in the early 20th Centuary (and before this as well obviously)

I wouldn't be surprised if most Europeans hadn't 'seen' Jews. Most Jews apart from some ultra orthodox types are not instantly recognisable. In the UK for example I would be quite surprised if you saw one outside of London or Manchester. Then apart from in Antwerp and a few French cities, I would doubt you would see them in many places in Europe.

As for non-Orthodox, or non religious Jews, I met three when I lived in the UK (and I lived in London), and I knew all of them for a while before I found out they were Jewish.

It is not a lot to form a hate campaign around. Basically Serpent is right.

Devrim

[CommieCat]

Most Europeans today have not even seen Jews. Hence, most Europeans are indifferent to them since they are not a visible group. Moslems, on the other hand, stand out a lot. Hence, it is more rewarding to attack moslems for fascists, since a lot of Europeans fear and dislike the moslems.

Why do you use the word 'Moslems' ?

[Dimentio]

Why do you use the word 'Moslems' ?

Followers of islam are called moslems or muslims, right?

[Devrim]

Followers of islam are called moslems or muslims, right?

I think it is generally spelt with a 'u' in English. I think the 'o' is used in some European languages.

Devrim

[Dr Mindbender]

Followers of islam are called moslems or muslims, right?

actually i think 'moslem' is a bastardisation of the word muslim created by western pundits.


ive only ever seen this spelling used by right wing media sources.

[Holden Caulfield]

actually i think 'moslem' is a bastardisation of the word muslim created by western pundits.


ive only ever seen this spelling used by right wing media sources.

I put some thought into this, i dunno, I think it is an old fashioned way of saying it, a step up from calling them Mohammedeens.
The right wing media use it to play on the rascist vibes that flow from our colonial past and sense of 'racial' superiority they try to program into us.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Yup, mainly because they are not nazis.

I dont seriously think there EVER was a threat of an actual neo-nazi group taking power in western europe. People remember what happened with the nazis last time.

But if they take away the nazi gear and just become racist-right populists...

All of a suddent they can achieve much more than they could before.

I have said it before and I will say it again, the day Nick Griffin stands down from the BNP is a dangerous day for all of us. He is really the last prominant link to the Neo-nazi Tyndall days.

That is scary!