American Patriotism Class [Archive]

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 02:40

In US history class today the history teacher stated the following things, in this order:

"Communism takes away people's freedoms...
the government tells you what your job is and where you have to live...
everyone is payed the same amount and there are no class distinctions. No matter how hard you work or how smart you are you will never advance...
the government members, the ones who tell the people what to do, get paid more than everybody else...
apartments cost more than the average person can afford, so much in fact that a lot of people cannot aford housing."

At this point I stopped the "history" lecture and asked him

"But I thought you said that the people were not alloud to choose where they live."

He responded: "Yes, but it is only the government members that get to buy these apartments and live where they want."

Me: "But you said that those leaders were paid more than everybody else, how is it then that these apartments are too expensive to afford?"

Teacher: "I said that the common man cannot afford them"

Me: "But that doesnt matter if what you said about common people not being able to live where they want, so why does it even matter if they can afford the apartment if they cannot live there?"

Teacher: "Excelent point" *adressing the rest of the class* "And that is how well the system of communism works in opressing its people, there is no way out of it."

And the rest of the kids just sat there writing their notes, not even caring that their history teacher was lying to them. :scared:

------------------------------------------------------------------

On another occasion, and prepare to be outraged by his ignorance, he stated this:

"...communism, fascism, totalitarianism, put 'em in a blender and blend them together. What you get back out is all the same thing."

He just said that communism and fascism were the same philosophy!?! Does this man lack all common sense!?!:cursing:

This is no history class, it is a patriotism class for the ignorant American.

trivas7

5th February 2009, 02:46

This is no history class, it is a patriotism class for the ignorant American.
Indeed; thank you for questioning authority.

GPDP

5th February 2009, 02:52

That's pretty much common occurrence in American history classes. Maybe not that blunt, but yeah, they tend to perpetuate all sorts of myths and are known for cherry-picking certain aspects of history while leaving others out. Labor history? Almost non-existent. Everything gets reduced to some sort of "great men of history" bullshit about how this or that president did all this amazing/stupid crap.

JimmyJazz

5th February 2009, 03:05

I was a libertarian in high school, not a leftist, but I still felt alienated by a lot of aspects of it. I've always been an anti-nationalist (in this regard I'm more extreme than most people on this site, if certain threads can be used to judge), and I haven't stood up for, crossed my heart for or said the pledge of allegiance since middle school. Not even at baseball games. :)

I can imagine my frustration and alienation would have been compounded if I'd been a leftist while I sat through all the "one cow, two cows" bullshit (pun intended) in my history classes. Or the "Democratic Party = socialist" schpeal of my AP American Politics teacher.

In short: I feel ya.

I'd say use high school to have fun, and join a political organization entirely outside of it. Or maybe you could talk to your friends about it, but do so outside of history class (where things are inevitably mismatched: the teacher has power and you don't), yet even there do try not to get so worked up about it that you drive your friends away. Your real life is more important than your political vision. Just realize that, even if all you do is deepen your own education and never talk to anyone else about it, this is valuable--if things ever got politically exciting in this country, you'd know exactly where you stand.

Die Neue Zeit

5th February 2009, 03:09

My two history teachers were much more informed, instead bringing up the straw-man of "human nature" rather than the McCarthyite shit you mentioned.

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 03:27

Invincible Summer

5th February 2009, 04:46

My homeroom teacher (extreme patriot) gets furious that I refuse to stand for the morning pledge. :D Most kids don't bother saying it, some refuse to put a hand on their heart, but I am the only one who will not even stand.

I'm glad that I never had to do that kind of sick patriotic shit in my Canadian high school (except at the rare school assembly, which I usually skipped) - not sure if they do that in other parts of Canada or not though.

You should just stay sitting while holding up your arm in the "Sieg Heil!" position during the pledge. That'd be hilarious.

GPDP

5th February 2009, 04:48

Better yet, raise a closed fist.

Invincible Summer

5th February 2009, 04:51

Better yet, raise a closed fist.

Some may interpret that as him being so emotionally overwhelmed that he's like "YES!! YES!!!"

GPDP

5th February 2009, 04:53

Some may interpret that as him being so emotionally overwhelmed that he's like "YES!! YES!!!"

WHILE saying "Workers of the world unite!"

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 04:57

I'm glad that I never had to do that kind of sick patriotic shit in my Canadian high school (except at the rare school assembly, which I usually skipped) - not sure if they do that in other parts of Canada or not though.

You should just stay sitting while holding up your arm in the "Sieg Heil!" position during the pledge. That'd be hilarious.
Oh my god, tomarrow, I will do that. :laugh:

Invincible Summer

5th February 2009, 05:06

WHILE saying "Workers of the world unite!"

Just saying it once? People might not catch it. He'd have to say it multiple times throughout the whole pledge (dont' know how long it is) then.

Imagining it, it's a hilarious scene.

I'm just finding holes all over your plans, GP. :lol:

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 05:26

Just saying it once? People might not catch it. He'd have to say it multiple times throughout the whole pledge (dont' know how long it is) then.

Imagining it, it's a hilarious scene.

I'm just finding holes all over your plans, GP. :lol:
Better yet, I could rewrite the whole pledge to be communistic, the teacher would go nuts. Here's the current pledge:

I pledge allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America.
And to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under God, one and indivisible.

I could say this:

I pledge alegiance, to the workers, of the United Soviet Socialist Republics.
And to the cause, for which we stand, one Union, forever free, workers of the world unite!

Also, I have always wanted to get the USSR anthem to play on the school speaker system. That would be fun, but I have no access to that.

Raúl Duke

5th February 2009, 05:32

Besides the fact he's describing state socialism and not communism...

"apartments cost more than the average person can afford, so much in fact that a lot of people cannot aford housing."

I think all or most state socialist countries had public free housing,

"everyone is payed the same amount and there are no class distinctions. No matter how hard you work or how smart you are you will never advance...
the government members, the ones who tell the people what to do, get paid more than everybody else..."

This sounds like an oxymoron...your history "teacher" sounds like an unqualified idiot spouting propaganda.

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 05:35

This sounds like an oxymoron...your history "teacher" sounds like an unqualified idiot spouting propaganda.
Exactly, he is a patriotism machine.

redSHARP

5th February 2009, 07:18

every time i stand for a pledge or national anthem i sing the Internationale

Pogue

5th February 2009, 08:50

That is insane, I've never seen anything similar over here.

Conquer or Die

5th February 2009, 08:56

Also, I have always wanted to get the USSR anthem to play on the school speaker system. That would be fun, but I have no access to that.

That's not true :D

StalinFanboy

5th February 2009, 09:07

The Red Scare is a huge influence on American culture. I experienced similar things when I was in high school. Although my history teacher in my junior year was significantly more...honest about history. For instance, we did a section on the Haymarket Affair. We re-enacted the trial of the anarchists, in which the class found the anarchists not guilty. He used it as a lesson to show how the government sometimes "rigs" trials for political gain. We also read a little on Sacco and Vanzetti, and on Leon Frank Czolgosz.

Bud Struggle

5th February 2009, 11:04

"Communism takes away people's freedoms...
the government tells you what your job is and where you have to live...
everyone is payed the same amount and there are no class distinctions. No matter how hard you work or how smart you are you will never advance...
the government members, the ones who tell the people what to do, get paid more than everybody else...
apartments cost more than the average person can afford, so much in fact that a lot of people cannot aford housing."

You can't actually blame your teacher--his is probably traching history as a "science" and is going by emperical evidence from past Socialistic societies. You should explain to your teacher all the utopian visions and plans you've heard on RevLeft and I'm sure he'll be converted. :)

ÑóẊîöŉ

5th February 2009, 11:20

Why the hell is that teacher talking about "communism" in a US History class? Have you considered asking why they're talking about (heavily propagandised) Russian history instead of US history?

StalinFanboy

5th February 2009, 11:26

I would say it's because of the whole Cold War thing that happened for a bit a few years ago.

Bud Struggle

5th February 2009, 11:36

I would say it's because of the whole Cold War thing that happened for a bit a few years ago.

I actually lived through it, and it was quite a big deal at the time. LOTS of propaganda. We were taught about Communism's "evils" on a regular basis and then we had to practice nuclear air raid drills because the Communists, Soviets, Russians --we used the words interchangeably--were planning to murder us all, or so we had thought. Those kinds of lessons and drills carried a lot of weight with kids.

I'm sure the little Russian kids went through the same thing on their side. It may be hard to understand now, but it was a REAL war, even if it was a cold one.

It's easy now to laugh this kind of stuff off as foolishness, which it was in part--but at the time it was quite real.

It's also easy to be revisionist about the Soviet Union 40 years after the fact, but at the time they were a major threat to the United States and Western Europe.

RGacky3

5th February 2009, 17:23

It's also easy to be revisionist about the Soviet Union 40 years after the fact, but at the time they were a major threat to the United States and Western Europe.

The same way Iraq was a "real threat"?

Demogorgon

5th February 2009, 17:27

My homeroom teacher (extreme patriot) gets furious that I refuse to stand for the morning pledge. :D Most kids don't bother saying it, some refuse to put a hand on their heart, but I am the only one who will not even stand.
If he says anything to you, makes any comment or otherwise makes you feel belittled in any way, contact your local ACLU office. The Supreme Court has ruled that sitting quietly during the pledge of allegience and refusing to participate is constitutionally protected and the school cannot give you any form of reprimand.

Don't do anything to disrupt the pledge or misbehave as schools are perfectly entitled to punish you for being disruptive in class and you won't be able to take any action. Just sit quietly and refuse to take part and the ACLU will contact the school to complain about your teacher.

danyboy27

5th February 2009, 17:54

I
It's also easy to be revisionist about the Soviet Union 40 years after the fact, but at the time they were a major threat to the United States and Western Europe.

i am with Tomk on this one, even in better time, when the soviet Union had better relation with the us, it was the only country on earth that had the military capability to outnumber and outgun the US army and european armies all together.

a fews people actually realize that before the us had developped the M1 abrhams, the russia always had the upper hand in term of quality AND quantity of tanks. Russia had a lot of innovative design for transport troops, planes and other high tech military goodies.

they had the second most largest expediotional force in the world after the US marine corps, they where able to influence and move stuff in africa europe and the middle east with far more ease than america ever did.

Warsaw pact armies didnt had any defensive plan, all relied on offensive, hell, soviet tank where not designed for defensive purpose, the way the gun moved was really inneficient in defensive position, all was emphased on offensive.

i am not saying that soviet wanted to take over the world, but they could have done it of they wanted to, that what you can call a threat. The us was a threat too, not in the same definition, but it was a threat.

StalinFanboy

5th February 2009, 18:49

I actually lived through it, and it was quite a big deal at the time. LOTS of propaganda. We were taught about Communism's "evils" on a regular basis and then we had to practice nuclear air raid drills because the Communists, Soviets, Russians --we used the words interchangeably--were planning to murder us all, or so we had thought. Those kinds of lessons and drills carried a lot of weight with kids.

I'm sure the little Russian kids went through the same thing on their side. It may be hard to understand now, but it was a REAL war, even if it was a cold one.

It's easy now to laugh this kind of stuff off as foolishness, which it was in part--but at the time it was quite real.

It's also easy to be revisionist about the Soviet Union 40 years after the fact, but at the time they were a major threat to the United States and Western Europe.
I know about the Cold War. That was a sarcastic reply to Noxion. It was meant as a joke.

Damn you internets :(

Phalanx

5th February 2009, 18:52

Glorious Union:

Don't worry, most Americans have gone through the same damn thing. My friend and I used to be kicked out of class for refusing to say the national anthem (it was a small town, with not alot of abstract thinking, lets just say). I'd say do your best to keep up the pressure on your history revisionist teacher, and more people will start asking you about historical events instead of your teacher (happened to me, and I managed to completely discredit all history textbooks at our school).

Keep up the good work and don't let em bring you down!

brigadista

5th February 2009, 19:43

HOw old are the students ? sounds generally like a pretty dumbed down version of "history" even taking into account the nonsense he was "teaching" you.

Do you have set books? Would he agree to a class discussion on John Reeds book ?[could you slip this in somehow]

What a boring and infuriating lesson...

I was threatened with expulsion from my school for questioning the English version of Irish history...

Respect to you for staying in there....

casper

5th February 2009, 19:59

If he says anything to you, makes any comment or otherwise makes you feel belittled in any way, contact your local ACLU office. The Supreme Court has ruled that sitting quietly during the pledge of allegience and refusing to participate is constitutionally protected and the school cannot give you any form of reprimand.

Don't do anything to disrupt the pledge or misbehave as schools are perfectly entitled to punish you for being disruptive in class and you won't be able to take any action. Just sit quietly and refuse to take part and the ACLU will contact the school to complain about your teacher.
thats cool. i usually just stand and at times mock the entire profession. but its annoying, and i have gotten in on it with my math teacher before. argh... i hate people at times... i might decide to make my web design teacher irrate tomarrow...heh, she is the ONLY one that says the pledge. the only reason why any one stands at all is becuse most all teachers pressure the students to stand.

Some Red Guy

5th February 2009, 20:05

My country is a bit different from America at the patriotism and propaganda thing, there is no "pledge of alliance" or stuff like that. My history teachers are quite different from one another. My recent teacher is a fanatical right-winger while the one I had a few years ago said communism is a good idea, without adding "but". So it's not that bad at all.

And Glorious Union, instead of using the school speaker system, try hiding another speaker inside a locker or some other hiding place where it still will be heard clearly. Make it play various leftist anthems at a continous loop with the volume turned all the way up.

Sure it's silly and rather pointless, but it would be hillarious to watch.

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 21:43

TheCultofAbeLincoln

5th February 2009, 22:26

The same way Iraq was a "real threat"?

No, the SU was a real threat. If we had left after WWII, there would have been nothing to stop the Stalin revolution.

I fucking hate how Americans get scared of third world countries. You know, the types who think Cuba actually matters in the big scheme of things, or believed Reagan when he said Grenada -Grenada!- was a threat to the United States.

As for the teacher, well, I'm lucky not to have had too many of those. Most of mine were quite liberal, and not only in history. I remember wearing a Che shirt and my Govt teacher complained that he wasn't able to wear one to board meetings, in response to our superintendent having a picture of Bush hanging in the room!

Demogorgon

5th February 2009, 22:50

It turns out that if I were to disrupt the pledge I could get a suspension. But I am aloud to sit through it, but school rules state that I can get a suspension for refusing to do as a teacher says. Either way, I'm not standing. Give me a suspension, It would be like a reward to me.

They won't suspend you for refusing an instruction to take part in the pledge. Not unless they want to be sued anyway. If any teacher tells you to take part in the pledge or makes any comment against you for not taking part, politely (always be polite) tell them that you have the right not to take part and that this right is unequivocably endorsed by the courts. Remember if they take action against against you and you sue over it, the courts will find in your favour. Indeed it is so certain they will that the school will probably not contest the case. Courts in America are required to follow precedents set by higher courts and the Supreme Court has stated in no uncertain terms that the pledge of allegiance is optional due to the terms of the First Amendment and that students cannot be compelled to take part in it against their will. This is binding on all courts in the US.

So in short politely tell them that you have a right not to take part in the pledge and that you will not disrupt it but will not take part either and that you will contact the ACLU if they make any attempt to prevent you following this course of action.

Glorious Union

5th February 2009, 22:55

They won't suspend you for refusing an instruction to take part in the pledge.
It is district policy that students must do everything a teacher tells them to do or risk suspension. It doesnt matter what they tell you to do, you have to do it or you will be punnished. Some students, due to arguments in their favor are able to reduce it to just a half day in detention.

So in short politely tell them that you have a right not to take part in the pledge and that you will not disrupt it but will not take part either and that you will contact the ACLU if they make any attempt to prevent you following this course of action.
I will do that, maybe get the teacher fired/reprimanded.

RGacky3

5th February 2009, 22:56

I fucking hate how Americans get scared of third world countries. You know, the types who think Cuba actually matters in the big scheme of things, or believed Reagan when he said Grenada -Grenada!- was a threat to the United States.

The American elite don't get scared of third world countries perse, they get scared of loosing control.

No, the SU was a real threat. If we had left after WWII, there would have been nothing to stop the Stalin revolution.

After WWII, the SU stoped its internationalist policy, and had no plans to attack the US, the US was not threatend by the SU.

Demogorgon

5th February 2009, 23:00

It is district policy that students must do everything a teacher tells them to do or risk suspension. It doesnt matter what they tell you to do, you have to do it or you will be punnished. Some students, due to arguments in their favor are able to reduce it to just a half day in detention.

They can't do that with regards to illegal instructions. And if they try they won't have a leg to stand on in court. District Policy does not trump the Bill Of Rights and you need to understand how the law works in your favour and make sure the school knows that you know.

Personally I find the Bill Of Rights to be creepy. I am glad there is nothing like that here, school prayers are allowed here of course (you don't have to take part though) as they aren't in America, but in many ways they aren't as bad because they aren't pledging allegiance in effect to a particular political system. You certainly should not take part in it. You are quite right to go to the ACLU, they specialise in dealing with things like this.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

6th February 2009, 00:37

After WWII, the SU stoped its internationalist policy, and had no plans to attack the US, the US was not threatend by the SU.

Yes, that was the benefit of using "the big stuff" against Japan.

casper

6th February 2009, 01:40

If only I could find a way into the school with a speaker system. Music playing devices are not alloud on school grounds, penalty of being caught is a fifteen dollar fine.

they charge you?? for breaking a rule.?! I hate how school systems try to act like their the law or something argh! we need popular sovereignty in our high schools.

RGacky3

6th February 2009, 16:57

Yes, that was the benefit of using "the big stuff" against Japan.

You can't make a point, then with my responce just bring up a totally unrelated point :P, I mean you can, but its pointless.

casper

6th February 2009, 19:48

Bud Struggle

6th February 2009, 19:50

Restricted?

Take it up here.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/unfair-restrictionsi-ii-t87501/index.html

casper

6th February 2009, 19:52

stj... arghness. Thank you tomK

Vahanian

6th February 2009, 19:59

STJ has been acting like an ass lately.

but anyways my teachers at my school aren't that thickheaded to try that stuff where i live.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

7th February 2009, 04:54

You can't make a point, then with my responce just bring up a totally unrelated point :P, I mean you can, but its pointless.

Well, I believe the USSR and their 53,000 T34s would have acted differently if they did no believe we had the power to destroy them in seconds.

Also, when you say they showed no aggression, you're overlooking the fact that they did attempt to starve a city into submission, and were it not for the US Air Force they would have, in all probability, succeeded.

Brother No. 1

7th February 2009, 21:02

The US sent a spy plane over to the CCCP. the US also Surrounded Cuba when it had the missles yet Turkey was not surrounded when it had missles.

TheCultofAbeLincoln

8th February 2009, 04:38

The US sent a spy plane over to the CCCP.

How is this different from the Soviets using Satellites to view everything in the US?

the US also Surrounded Cuba when it had the missles yet Turkey was not surrounded when it had missles.

Geography is a ***** sometimes.

ZeroNowhere

8th February 2009, 05:57

The US sent a spy plane over to the CCCP.
I don't see this as being a valid case for anything other than perhaps (and this is highly debatable), "The USSR had better spies."

the US also Surrounded Cuba when it had the missles yet Turkey was not surrounded when it had missles.
Because the US govt. blockading Cuba was a lot easier than the USSR govt. managing to blockade Turkey. Also, the blockade of Cuba was when they were being sent the missiles, they didn't actually have them.

Nietzsche's Ghost

8th February 2009, 06:17

That sucks.:( My history teacher is really cool. I talk to him about anarchism and he actually listens which is more than I can say about mostly any of the students. loaned him a book on it actually.

Brother No. 1

8th February 2009, 13:42

of course the CCCP had better spies. they never got caught. Also the accusations of the of the so called "spies" in 1954 I think was false. the CCCP had already gained knowlege of the nuke from the factories it had taken for National Socialist Germany. Yet they said this husban and wife gave infornamtion of the Atomic Project to Soviet spies. Now how is it that it took Einstien 20 or 40 years to do that yet these people could only say it in 5 to 10 mins. The US was paranoid.

NecroCommie

8th February 2009, 17:07

Well I think I am lucky in a way. I had two history teachers. Neither really agreed with me on anything, and were always challenging my views infront of the class, but I really think they respected my views to a certain degree. Both always asked for my oppinion on everything, the other one just for the sake of having an opposing view infront of the class, and the other one did it to bash my views to ground (and thus "prove" her point.) Our argumentation skills were generally on the same level, sometimes me ending up "victorious" and sometimes not.

The reason for this is that the Finnish school system wants the students to think for themselves, and therefore the teachers were happy to grasp even the most unwanted free thinking in otherwise braindead class. The objective teachers often gave me good grades, the other one rarely did (she dared to claim that islam did not originate in the middle east, just to smite my grades in a test, never gave any reasons or arguments for her view)

Brother No. 1

8th February 2009, 17:18

Well here in America its a different story.

NecroCommie

8th February 2009, 17:28

Well even with the neutral teacher I were not allowed to answer stricktly in a marxist way. He did support questioning capitalist history with marxist arguments, but I were expected to keep my views "neutral"

We all know that the only truly humane view of history is a marxist theory of historical materialism.

Brother No. 1

8th February 2009, 17:30

All Teachers dont want us to answer Marxist answers or any type of strict communist answer.

NecroCommie

8th February 2009, 17:35

Yeah, and over here it is a taboo to "follow" any movement. People are expected to be apolitical, and question and criticize every idea that would shake the modern "welfare"country. It is considered "humane", but I think it is just another way for capitalism to keep people consuming.

"good people" are expected to like everyone and everything, because isn't love a nice thing. No one should hate anything. Ironic thing in this is the fact that this "understanding" extencts to fascist movements. No one is supposed to hate even fascists, because liking people is so much nicer. This kind of naive and ignorant thinking makes me want to puke.

Dharma

8th February 2009, 17:40

I used to have to but up with that garbage. My current history teacher is much more informed but the students still have no idea what communism is. Confusing communists with terrorists. Way to stick up for yourself comrade!

Bud Struggle

8th February 2009, 17:46

TheCultofAbeLincoln

9th February 2009, 09:36

Because the US govt. blockading Cuba was a lot easier than the USSR govt. managing to blockade Turkey. Also, the blockade of Cuba was when they were being sent the missiles, they didn't actually have them.

Don't mean to butt in, but it's been found out much later that they did have short-range tactical missiles in Cuba when the blockade began. In other words, we really did come that close...shit we had divisions on the Keys who were preparing the invasion (the military plan) because they didn't know about the operating missiles and goddamn that would have sucked.

of course the CCCP had better spies. they never got caught. Also the accusations of the of the so called "spies" in 1954 I think was false. the CCCP had already gained knowlege of the nuke from the factories it had taken for National Socialist Germany. Yet they said this husban and wife gave infornamtion of the Atomic Project to Soviet spies. Now how is it that it took Einstien 20 or 40 years to do that yet these people could only say it in 5 to 10 mins. The US was paranoid.Yeah I've always wondered about the Rosenbergs. That's quite a slap on the CCCP when you think about it, saying they had to have needed spies to get that technology.

But with that said they did a lot of that, as you point out. You know the Mig-25? It's a rip-off of a canadian fighter that was immediately scrapped when they found out about the KGB infiltration. I believe it was the Avro Arrow.