Fuck A.N.S.W.E.R.: Here is the real protest [March 19 and 21 /Mod]

[griffjam]

Six years of war and occupation of Iraq have come and gone. Lives left tattered amongst the ruins. The US armed forces and their co-conspirators in the military-industrial complex, along with their friends on Wall Street and K Street, continue to occupy Iraq and Afghanistan with impunity. Meanwhile, Obama mania has rendered much of the left fixated on electoral politics.
Clearly, we are at a crossroads in the US anti-war movement: we can put our faith in the newly selected President and hope for change, or take direct action to stop the war machine and send the message that we will not tolerate mass murder and occupation.
The Self Described Anarchist Collective (SDAC), a newly formed collective of anarchists and anti-authoritarians from across the eastern seaboard, is calling for two days of action against the war on March 19th and March 21st. On March 19th, the DC SDS will hold a Funk the War protest in the streets of Washington, DC. On March 21st the ANSWER Coalition, the authoritarian front group for the Party for Socialism and Liberation, is holding its semi-annual national march to end the war in Iraq. But ANSWERS’s dog and pony show will do little, save a 30 second sound bite on the evening news, to send a message to the men and women who continue to bring us death and deception in the name of US imperialism.
War and occupation and capitalism and imperialism are inextricably linked in the global race for the accumulation of wealth and power. The International Monetary Fund, the World Bank and their sister institutions have played a vital role in ensuring the preservation of that relationship. Shortly after the war in Iraq began, the IMF inserted itself into the war-torn land by imposing a series of Stand By Agreements to restructure the Iraqi economy. In predictable IMF neoliberal style, these agreements removed public subsidies on fuel and oil, causing the price of food and basic necessities to skyrocket. They also cut pensions for retirees, capped public sector worker wages while simultaneously firing hundreds of thousands of government employees, and privatized most state-owned enterprises. It wasn’t enough for the US to physically destroy and occupy Iraq; they had to bring in the banks and financiers to ensure that even after the physical violence has ended, economic violence and occupation will reign supreme.
Please join us in anti-capitalist blocs on March 19th and March 21st in
Washington, DC. Together we will throw a wrench in the cogs of the war machine.
The SDAC hopes to strengthen the link between the anti-war and global justice movements. We strive to be not only a presence but a place for dialog between the two overlapping movements, as well as to foster a more militant force against the institutions of capitalism and for the creation of a more just world.

Anti-Capitalist Bloc
March 19th - please meet at 3:00 PM at McPherson Square. Look for the black flags.
March 21st - please meet at 10:00 AM at Farragut Square. Look for the black flags.
Spokescouncils to be announced.
The SDAC is a regional organization with members from across the eastern sea board. SDAC embraces a diversity of tactics and have signed on to the Peoples Global Action (http://peoplesglobalaction.org/) hallmarks.
To contact the SDAC or endorse this call please e-mail [email protected]
http://www.selfdescribed.org


No megaphones, no dogma, fuck the old left order

[Honggweilo]

No megaphones, no dogma, fuck the old left order

The PSL is new left (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left) actually :rolleyes:

[kiki75]

So...wait. Two groups, who agree that the war needs to end and troops need to be brought home, are having theoretically oppositional demonstrations on the same day in the same city?

For fuck's sake.

[Sasha]

no they call for a seprate block within the one demonstration, a completly normal practise (at least here in western europe)

reading is a (almost) lost art

[Kassad]

You're pathetic. A.N.S.W.E.R. has organized every major anti-war, anti-racism and anti-police brutality rally in the country since 9/11. They've organized just about everything else in-between in a manner that no other group has done. There will be thousands of A.N.S.W.E.R. supporters participating. Instead if being divisive like your kind always seem to be, why don't you join us at the rally? You can be a separate group, but we are all standing against war and imperialism. If you're trying to stand against our rally, you're condoning imperialism and its cause by displacing our unification and standing against anti-imperialism. You don't have to support A.N.S.W.E.R. but why don't you stand beside us in the fight against imperialism instead of dividing our cause?

[kiki75]

As someone who has never experienced a bloc, only read about them, it would never cross my mind that this bloc is supposed to be within the ANSWER demonstration. I would never understand that not only b/c they are demonstrating far from the other demonstration, but also because of the negative language about ANSWER used in the callout.

[Zeus the Moose]

Just out of curiosity, does this SDAC have any position on United for Peace and Justice, the group that for the second year in a row, has not organised for mass actions on the anniversary of the Iraq invasion/occupation?

You can criticise ANSWER for its internal practises, as there is I think legitimate debate over the question of coalition versus front group, but they (along with the National Assembly) are taking the initiative to organise this. For that at least, they deserve credit.

[Killfacer]

You're pathetic. A.N.S.W.E.R. has organized every major anti-war, anti-racism and anti-police brutality rally in the country since 9/11. They've organized just about everything else in-between in a manner that no other group has done. There will be thousands of A.N.S.W.E.R. supporters participating. Instead if being divisive like your kind always seem to be, why don't you join us at the rally? You can be a separate group, but we are all standing against war and imperialism. If you're trying to stand against our rally, you're condoning imperialism and its cause by displacing our unification and standing against anti-imperialism. You don't have to support A.N.S.W.E.R. but why don't you stand beside us in the fight against imperialism instead of dividing our cause?

kassad is right, it's a completely childish and divisive act of stupidity. What the bloody hell are you playing at? Stop giving the left a bad name with your petty sectarianism.

[Kassad]

Let's put it this way. If Killfacer and I agree that you're being petty, you're being petty. We don't agree. Ever.

[griffjam]

A.N.S.W.E.R. has led the anti-war movement around in circles for 8 years, continuing its practice of organizing safe protests which promote the organization, but do nothing to slow down the war or even bring us one day closer to abolishing the U.S. war machine. What's more, scarce movement resources have been diverted into A.N.S.W.E.R.'s organization, which has only helped promote the authoritarian politics of the W.W.P.. A.N.S.W.E.R. has squandered movement resources on symbolic protests in Washington and San Francisco which every seasoned activist can tell you are a waste of time. ANSWER isn't interested in ending any war--they want to be in control of any new social change movements that grow in the United States.

Keep trying to fight the status quo by playing your part in it. The authoritarian left's antiquated tactics -marches with mass produced signs and slogans repeated ad nauseum (down with U.S. imperialism, down with U.S. imperialism, Free Palestine free Palestine) accomplish nothing except turning themselves into a cariciature of what protestors look like and alienating anyone who isn't already a commited activist.

The bloc is in no way connected to A.N.S.W.E.R. The bloc is comitted to being an autonomous non-permitted action. (not to mention that A.N.S.W.E.R. and its puppet masters at the W.W.P. have habit of telling new members that "anarchists work for the C.I.A.")

[BIG BROTHER]

omg and how is your little anarchoblock any different? that the protesters will be white kids with their faces covered, who think setting a trash can on fire will make them revolutionary and stop the war?

[griffjam]

a group of people who are willing to do what they think is right despite police intimidation is a lot more empowering than weakly chanting with the liberals.

[urben]

a group of people who are willing to do what they think is right despite police intimidation is a lot more empowering than weakly chanting with the liberals.

Aww, you're cute with your suburban alienation...

Here you come with your red-baiting "fuck ANSWER" bullshit, while at the same time claiming to "strive to be not only a presence but a place for dialog." Please, grow up, learn to spell, hand out some flyers in the bitter cold, and spend your evening making phone calls to the working people of this country to let them know how and why they can get involved. That's what real organizers do. That's what ANSWER is doing these days.

[griffjam]

Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation? Perhaps, after years of struggling to educate them about their victimhood, you have come to blame them for their condition. They must want to be ground under the heel of capitalist imperialism; otherwise, why do they show no interest in your political causes? Why haven't they joined you yet in chaining yourself to mahogany furniture, chanting slogans at carefully planned and orchestrated protests, and frequenting online forums? Why haven't they sat down and learned all the terminology necessary for a genuine understanding of the complexities of Marxist economic theory?
The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest—your marches, hand held signs, and gatherings—are now powerless to effect real change because they have become such a predictable part of the status quo. They know that your post-Marxist jargon is off-putting because it really is a language of mere academic dispute, not a weapon capable of undermining systems of control. They know that your infighting, your splinter groups and endless quarrels over ephemeral theories can never effect any real change in the world they experience from day to day. They know that no matter who is in office, what laws are on the books, what "ism"s the intellectuals march under, the content of their lives will remain the same. They—we—know that our boredom is proof that these "politics" are not the key to any real transformation of life. For our lives are boring enough already!

And you know it too. For how many of you is politics a responsibility? Something you engage in because you feel you should, when in your heart of hearts there are a million things you would rather be doing? Your volunteer work—is it your most favorite pastime, or do you do it out of a sense of obligation? Why do you think it is so hard to motivate others to volunteer as you do? Could it be that it is, above all, a feeling of guilt that drives you to fulfill your "duty" to be politically active? Perhaps you spice up your "work" by trying (consciously or not) to get in trouble with the authorities, to get arrested: not because it will practically serve your cause, but to make things more exciting, to recapture a little of the romance of turbulent times now long past. Have you ever felt that you were participating in a ritual, a long-established tradition of fringe protest, that really serves only to strengthen the position of the mainstream? Have you ever secretly longed to escape from the stagnation and boredom of your political "responsibilities"?
It's no wonder that no one has joined you in your political endeavors. Perhaps you tell yourself that it's tough, thankless work, but somebody's got to do it. The answer is, well, NO.
You actually do us all a real disservice with your tiresome, tedious politics. For in fact, there is nothing more important than politics. NOT the politics of American "democracy" and law, of who is elected state legislator to sign the same bills and perpetuate the same system. Not the politics of the "I got involved with the radical left because I enjoy quibbling over trivial details and writing rhetorically about an unreachable utopia" activist. Not the politics of any leader or ideology that demands that you make sacrifices for "the cause." But the politics of our everyday lives. When you separate politics from the immediate, everyday experiences of individual men and women, it becomes completely irrelevant. Indeed, it becomes the private domain of wealthy, comfortable intellectuals, who can trouble themselves with such dreary, theoretical things. When you involve yourself in politics out of a sense of obligation, and make political action into a dull responsibility rather than an exciting game that is worthwhile for its own sake, you scare away people whose lives are already far too dull for any more tedium. When you make politics into a lifeless thing, a joyless thing, a dreadful responsibility, it becomes just another weight upon people, rather than a means to lift weight from people. And thus you ruin the idea of politics for the people to whom it should be most important. For everyone has a stake in considering their lives, in asking themselves what they want out of life and how they can get it. But you make politics look to them like a miserable, self-referential, pointless game, a game with no relevance to the real lives they are living out.

[Wanted Man]

I don't oppose the idea of having blocs of several organisations in the demo. But what's the point of completely separating yourself? Supposedly, the problem with ANSWER is that they just organise "set-piece" marches that are "boring" and don't actually stop the war. So what is some isolated "real protest" going to add to that? Will it stop the war? Or will it just be a good opportunity to kick and scream, because that's so exciting and liberating?

Judging by the self-important "everyday anarchy" cack above, I'm guessing the latter.

[Kassad]

You obviously have no grasp of anything. Protests aren't meant to be violent displays of power. They are meant to educate people and to show support for an ideology. With significant presence and unity, we can send a clear message to other citizens of the United States that there is a movement brewing to end the imperialist machine. Our numbers grow significantly every time, so what does that tell you?

A.N.S.W.E.R. is not authoritarian or anything you are suggesting. It is a immense movement of peopel striving for social change. As usual, your types cannot see past divisive little things that are totally irrelevant to what we are attempting to accomplish. We don't alienate anyone. We consistently fight racism, homophobia, imperialism, war and oppression of the working class. We're sorry if we don't live up to your standards, since we don't set explosives under police cars.

I mean, tell me. Do you even know who is on A.N.S.W.E.R.'s steering committee?


Steering Committee:
IFCO/Pastors for Peace
Free Palestine Alliance - U.S.
Haiti Support Network
Partnership for Civil Justice - LDEF
Nicaragua Network
Alliance for Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines
Korea Truth Commission
Muslim Student Association - National
Kensington Welfare Rights Union
Mexico Solidarity Network
Party for Socialism and Liberation

These are groups of different motives, creeds and means that have united to oppose racism and injustice. This isn't just about the Party for Socialism and Liberation. This isn't just 'chanting', which is funny, since that's all you and your Anarchist buddies will do is chant as well. This is forming a mass movement, which you and your little friends are attempting to divide. You have no concept of anyhing A.N.S.W.E.R. related. You act like we're not legitimate because we all carry the same signs and chant? That's the only justificiation you have for being divisive, moronic and completely devoid of all logic and reason?

A.N.S.W.E.R. is commited to a liberated Palestine, workers rights, an end to American imperialism, fighting police brutality and standing up for the oppressed. You can attempt to spread your malinformed opinion all you want. It is totally false.

[KaubanProcs]

Alliance for Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines


HAHAHA that seems like its going to go nowhere for a while...

As to OP:

I just love how you think that all this cop punching, car burning acts would get you anywhere near helping the masses. Then you say the masses dont understand cause its boring. So instead of bringing them up, by educating them, youd prefer if they just remained stupid and toying with their more baser instincts. Why does that sound very right-wing to me? Oh and if you think its all boring, come live in a 3rd world country why don't you, where human rights are moot and the moment youre found out as an activist, a government agent could be watching you.

[Kassad]

HAHAHA that seems like its going to go nowhere for a while...


Of course, so we should just sit back and ignore the problems in the world, right? Sounds like a good time.

[Plagueround]

Griffjam's analysis of many current left politics doesn't seem too far off, although I'm not fond of the alternative he presents either. I've never much been a fan of PSL's platform (NHiA had some solid criticisms of them floating around), but it does make me happy to see the protests and their group are growing.

Everyone here could stand to do a lot better than resorting to portraying PSL as "authoritarian elitist intellectuals" and anarchists as "kids who want to break stuff".

[Kassad]

Plagueround, that's not what I was saying. I was trying to point out from this quote:


continuing its practice of organizing safe protests which promote the organization

that his only real objection to A.N.S.W.E.R. was our 'safe' protests, which infers that we should have 'unsafe' protests, which naturally assumes that he just wants to cause destruction.

[Plagueround]

Plagueround, that's not what I was saying. I was trying to point out from this quote:



that his only real objection to A.N.S.W.E.R. was our 'safe' protests, which infers that we should have 'unsafe' protests, which naturally assumes that he just wants to cause destruction.

I wasn't singling you out in particular, just speaking generally.

If I had to take a guess, he would probably be objecting to "safe" as in following all the legal rules of a protest and making sure everything the event does is good and legal...not necessarily saying A.N.S.W.E.R. should break cars or they're useless.

Although, I find more and more I have a different perception of anarchists should be doing or agreeing with, so I won't speak for him.

[534634634265]

Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation? Perhaps, after years of struggling to educate them about their victimhood, you have come to blame them for their condition. They must want to be ground under the heel of capitalist imperialism; otherwise, why do they show no interest in your political causes? Why haven't they joined you yet in chaining yourself to mahogany furniture, chanting slogans at carefully planned and orchestrated protests, and frequenting online forums? Why haven't they sat down and learned all the terminology necessary for a genuine understanding of the complexities of Marxist economic theory?
The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest—your marches, hand held signs, and gatherings—are now powerless to effect real change because they have become such a predictable part of the status quo. They know that your post-Marxist jargon is off-putting because it really is a language of mere academic dispute, not a weapon capable of undermining systems of control. They know that your infighting, your splinter groups and endless quarrels over ephemeral theories can never effect any real change in the world they experience from day to day. They know that no matter who is in office, what laws are on the books, what "ism"s the intellectuals march under, the content of their lives will remain the same. They—we—know that our boredom is proof that these "politics" are not the key to any real transformation of life. For our lives are boring enough already!

And you know it too. For how many of you is politics a responsibility? Something you engage in because you feel you should, when in your heart of hearts there are a million things you would rather be doing? Your volunteer work—is it your most favorite pastime, or do you do it out of a sense of obligation? Why do you think it is so hard to motivate others to volunteer as you do? Could it be that it is, above all, a feeling of guilt that drives you to fulfill your "duty" to be politically active? Perhaps you spice up your "work" by trying (consciously or not) to get in trouble with the authorities, to get arrested: not because it will practically serve your cause, but to make things more exciting, to recapture a little of the romance of turbulent times now long past. Have you ever felt that you were participating in a ritual, a long-established tradition of fringe protest, that really serves only to strengthen the position of the mainstream? Have you ever secretly longed to escape from the stagnation and boredom of your political "responsibilities"?
It's no wonder that no one has joined you in your political endeavors. Perhaps you tell yourself that it's tough, thankless work, but somebody's got to do it. The answer is, well, NO.
You actually do us all a real disservice with your tiresome, tedious politics. For in fact, there is nothing more important than politics. NOT the politics of American "democracy" and law, of who is elected state legislator to sign the same bills and perpetuate the same system. Not the politics of the "I got involved with the radical left because I enjoy quibbling over trivial details and writing rhetorically about an unreachable utopia" activist. Not the politics of any leader or ideology that demands that you make sacrifices for "the cause." But the politics of our everyday lives. When you separate politics from the immediate, everyday experiences of individual men and women, it becomes completely irrelevant. Indeed, it becomes the private domain of wealthy, comfortable intellectuals, who can trouble themselves with such dreary, theoretical things. When you involve yourself in politics out of a sense of obligation, and make political action into a dull responsibility rather than an exciting game that is worthwhile for its own sake, you scare away people whose lives are already far too dull for any more tedium. When you make politics into a lifeless thing, a joyless thing, a dreadful responsibility, it becomes just another weight upon people, rather than a means to lift weight from people. And thus you ruin the idea of politics for the people to whom it should be most important. For everyone has a stake in considering their lives, in asking themselves what they want out of life and how they can get it. But you make politics look to them like a miserable, self-referential, pointless game, a game with no relevance to the real lives they are living out.

so wait, this guy quoted Crimethinc. to members of the commie club and high posting, intelligent members of OI, and no one called him on that? isn't that like a forum faux pas?

[urben]

I wasn't singling you out in particular, just speaking generally.

If I had to take a guess, he would probably be objecting to "safe" as in following all the legal rules of a protest and making sure everything the event does is good and legal...not necessarily saying A.N.S.W.E.R. should break cars or they're useless.

Although, I find more and more I have a different perception of anarchists should be doing or agreeing with, so I won't speak for him.

ANSWER doesn't make a fetish out of bourgeois law. In fact, they consistently denounce police aggression against those taking direct action, and ANSWER's lawyers have consistently defended anarchists in court. That's what makes this broad-sided attack so unprincipled. The fact is that ANSWER needs to be able to guarantee a safe and permitted protest to those who are coming to a protest for the first time, those who are undocumented or have other legal situations, etc. More vulnerable folks simply would not come if the march's legality were up in the air.

Of course, the guy who posted this is worried more about what's most "empowering" for him, what gives him personally a sense of fulfillment, and not all the responsibilities one must consider when organizing a march. He just wants to thump his chest and charge to the front of the march with his buddies.

[Plagueround]

so wait, this guy quoted Crimethinc. to members of the commie club and high posting, intelligent members of OI, and no one called him on that? isn't that like a forum faux pas?

I guess to know that, I'd have to actually bother to read Crimethinc.

[KaubanProcs]

Of course, so we should just sit back and ignore the problems in the world, right? Sounds like a good time.

Er...I'm from the Philippines. I'm in the Philippines. I try to do what I can everyday, even though the government has most likely put in intelligence agents everywhere. And it isn't any easy juggling academics, social life, and trying to not get abducted by the AFP.

[Wanted Man]

so wait, this guy quoted Crimethinc. to members of the commie club and high posting, intelligent members of OI, and no one called him on that? isn't that like a forum faux pas?
I didn't think it was self-written, but I certainly have better things to do than searching CrimethInc. to find out. ;) It's not surprising that the source is CrimethInc., it was the first thing that it reminded me of. Stuff like that really represents the worst part of anarchism, luckily there are many more sensible ones.

[BIG BROTHER]

Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation? Perhaps, after years of struggling to educate them about their victimhood, you have come to blame them for their condition. They must want to be ground under the heel of capitalist imperialism; otherwise, why do they show no interest in your political causes? Why haven't they joined you yet in chaining yourself to mahogany furniture, chanting slogans at carefully planned and orchestrated protests, and frequenting online forums? Why haven't they sat down and learned all the terminology necessary for a genuine understanding of the complexities of Marxist economic theory?
The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest—your marches, hand held signs, and gatherings—are now powerless to effect real change because they have become such a predictable part of the status quo. They know that your post-Marxist jargon is off-putting because it really is a language of mere academic dispute, not a weapon capable of undermining systems of control. They know that your infighting, your splinter groups and endless quarrels over ephemeral theories can never effect any real change in the world they experience from day to day. They know that no matter who is in office, what laws are on the books, what "ism"s the intellectuals march under, the content of their lives will remain the same. They—we—know that our boredom is proof that these "politics" are not the key to any real transformation of life. For our lives are boring enough already!

And you know it too. For how many of you is politics a responsibility? Something you engage in because you feel you should, when in your heart of hearts there are a million things you would rather be doing? Your volunteer work—is it your most favorite pastime, or do you do it out of a sense of obligation? Why do you think it is so hard to motivate others to volunteer as you do? Could it be that it is, above all, a feeling of guilt that drives you to fulfill your "duty" to be politically active? Perhaps you spice up your "work" by trying (consciously or not) to get in trouble with the authorities, to get arrested: not because it will practically serve your cause, but to make things more exciting, to recapture a little of the romance of turbulent times now long past. Have you ever felt that you were participating in a ritual, a long-established tradition of fringe protest, that really serves only to strengthen the position of the mainstream? Have you ever secretly longed to escape from the stagnation and boredom of your political "responsibilities"?
It's no wonder that no one has joined you in your political endeavors. Perhaps you tell yourself that it's tough, thankless work, but somebody's got to do it. The answer is, well, NO.
You actually do us all a real disservice with your tiresome, tedious politics. For in fact, there is nothing more important than politics. NOT the politics of American "democracy" and law, of who is elected state legislator to sign the same bills and perpetuate the same system. Not the politics of the "I got involved with the radical left because I enjoy quibbling over trivial details and writing rhetorically about an unreachable utopia" activist. Not the politics of any leader or ideology that demands that you make sacrifices for "the cause." But the politics of our everyday lives. When you separate politics from the immediate, everyday experiences of individual men and women, it becomes completely irrelevant. Indeed, it becomes the private domain of wealthy, comfortable intellectuals, who can trouble themselves with such dreary, theoretical things. When you involve yourself in politics out of a sense of obligation, and make political action into a dull responsibility rather than an exciting game that is worthwhile for its own sake, you scare away people whose lives are already far too dull for any more tedium. When you make politics into a lifeless thing, a joyless thing, a dreadful responsibility, it becomes just another weight upon people, rather than a means to lift weight from people. And thus you ruin the idea of politics for the people to whom it should be most important. For everyone has a stake in considering their lives, in asking themselves what they want out of life and how they can get it. But you make politics look to them like a miserable, self-referential, pointless game, a game with no relevance to the real lives they are living out.

for all the bullshit that all you said, it seems to me rather, that you are just a little buy who wants to feel revolutionary by isolating himself in the protests with his little friends, just so they can play revolutionary by breaking some glass window.

[TC]

As someone who has never experienced a bloc, only read about them, it would never cross my mind that this bloc is supposed to be within the ANSWER demonstration. I would never understand that not only b/c they are demonstrating far from the other demonstration, but also because of the negative language about ANSWER used in the callout.


Right.

Thats the thing. These losers are too cowardly to dress up like 'anarchists'* and have their black bloc on their own, they need to latch onto the larger communist led protest movement for protection. Why not do it on the 20th inbetween the demos? Because their own movement is too weak for them to have any visibility or recognition at all. If it wasn't for the ANSWER demo they would neither get in the news nor be able to mobilize. They organizationally depend on ANSWER in a parasitic fashion and they enhance the split in the anti-war movement through selective red baiting (That ANSWER is a PSL run group is repeated constantly, that UPJ is a CPUSA group or WCW is an RCP group is less popular for some reason).

They dislike ANSWER's attempt at crowed control. For some reason it doesn't occur to them that tens of thousands of people especially in the presense of police and counter protesters could pose a death by stampede hazard to participants including them if it wasn't organized.

When they boldly incite police aggression, guess who they turn to for their free legal defense. The P.S.L.! Virtually all of the lawyers and legal workers who do mass defense for protests and individual pro bono defense for anarchists accused of (and often guilty of) protest related offenses are P.S.L. members whether they represent themselves as being from the NLG mass defense committee or one of the public interest law firms that focuses on demonstrations.

The narrative however is never "The PSL gave us a political venue, kept marchers safe and got us out of jail" its always "the PSL is 'authoritarian'."


They want to have their cake and eat it too.


*Anarchists in other context might imply doing something politically productive like the old bomb throwing anarchists who were among the boldest and least cowardly people on the left, or anarchists who create social centers and areas of culturally liberated space. My comments are reserved for people who make a macho show of themselves at the expense of the people who build these marches.

[TC]

I don't oppose the idea of having blocs of several organisations in the demo. But what's the point of completely separating yourself? Supposedly, the problem with ANSWER is that they just organise "set-piece" marches that are "boring" and don't actually stop the war. So what is some isolated "real protest" going to add to that? Will it stop the war? Or will it just be a good opportunity to kick and scream, because that's so exciting and liberating?

Judging by the self-important "everyday anarchy" cack above, I'm guessing the latter.

Yah, exactly.


In 'good old days', Anarchists bombed government buildings and assassinated leaders to destablize the state.* Today these 'anarchists' just want to feel good about themselves. The PSL has at least built something, they've built and done nothing.

If Crimethincers want to divert the resources, the time and energy and numbers they have, from ANSWER to an Anarchist urban guerrilla cell, then I'd be happy to point to them as the vanguard, in the general sense of the term, of the anti-war movement. They have not. They wont because they're far wussier than the PSL (which btw does take personal risks, they and their ex-comrades in the WWP don't just chant 'free palestine' they also travel to Gaza against the blockade to document Israeli war crimes).


*not exactly as good as Communists actually overthrowing the state, but at least they did something.

[Sam_b]

Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation?

Well they've really been flocking to the anarchists in their millions, eh?

Tool.

[Wanted Man]

Well they've really been flocking to the anarchists in their millions, eh?

Tool.
Irrelevant. At least they're having fun. They are breaking through the spectacle by attacking cops and then running away so that the cops can smash up the organised demo. That's, like, so liberating! :rolleyes:

Nothing against anarchists as a whole, btw. There are just some "tendencies" which TC just correctly described as parasitical. It's not so bad here, maybe it's worse in the US. I do respect the anarchists here who express themselves in an autonomous way, but when they support actions, they actually participate unconditionally, arrange legal defense for activists, etc.

Because they're not self-important blowhards, you don't hear a lot of grandiose statements from them, filled with Situationist mumbo jumbo. The self-important blowhards are the ones who fill Indymedia with "demands" to form a "black bloc" at a pro-Palestinian demo "against Islamic fundamentalism and authoritarian socialism" whom you never actually see in real life. I hate the term "silent majority", but a small dosage of modesty can be good occasionally.

[Glenn Beck]

Why has the oppressed proletariat not come to its senses and joined you in your fight for world liberation? Perhaps, after years of struggling to educate them about their victimhood, you have come to blame them for their condition. They must want to be ground under the heel of capitalist imperialism; otherwise, why do they show no interest in your political causes? Why haven't they joined you yet in chaining yourself to mahogany furniture, chanting slogans at carefully planned and orchestrated protests, and frequenting online forums? Why haven't they sat down and learned all the terminology necessary for a genuine understanding of the complexities of Marxist economic theory?
The truth is, your politics are boring to them because they really are irrelevant. They know that your antiquated styles of protest—blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Crimethinc copypasta is a great way to ruin your credibility, and that essay is particularly inane. Also nihilistically condemning your opponents as simply 100% boring, useless, and reactionary is a poor grounds for debate. Just a heads up, if you are ever interested in having a meaningful exchange of ideas with someone you disagree with.

Anyhow: far be it from me to judge this new anarchist group before it even has its first action but so far things aren't looking good. Trite and irresponsible red-baiting of the PSL, an ironic mocking of ANSWER's lack of mainstream visibility (in comparison with the US anarchist movement's total invisibility with the exception of yellow journalism about Black Blocs?), and then a rather broad based political appeal about the evils of globalization which, while not objectionable to me definitely runs against the rhetoric about the supposed liberalism and excessive compromises in favor of broad appeal of ANSWER's politics.

I'd imagine you could make plenty of useful and valid critiques of ANSWER's methods, but this post is completely scant on that. Do you honestly think this hyper-sectarian "FUCK YOU BORING OLD CHUMPS" type of anarchist agitating hasn't been tried before? It hasn't exactly been a resounding success.


that his only real objection to A.N.S.W.E.R. was our 'safe' protests, which infers that we should have 'unsafe' protests, which naturally assumes that he just wants to cause destruction.

I didn't get that impression at all. The common critique of ANSWER and the one it seemed to me the OP was articulating is that their positions are too "safe" POLITICALLY, and give way too much ground to the liberals.


In 'good old days', Anarchists bombed government buildings and assassinated leaders to destablize the state.* Today these 'anarchists' just want to feel good about themselves. The PSL has at least built something, they've built and done nothing.

If Crimethincers want to divert the resources, the time and energy and numbers they have, from ANSWER to an Anarchist urban guerrilla cell, then I'd be happy to point to them as the vanguard, in the general sense of the term, of the anti-war movement. They have not. They wont because they're far wussier than the PSL (which btw does take personal risks, they and their ex-comrades in the WWP don't just chant 'free palestine' they also travel to Gaza against the blockade to document Israeli war crimes).

"Lifestylism" is a nice buzzword for anarchists these days but for many it isn't anything more than a buzzword. Little attention is paid to prioritizing and meeting specific progressive goals in comparison with orgiastically asserting ones own ideological "inner self" or whatever yuppie bs.

[iraqnevercalledmenigger]

A.N.S.W.E.R. has led the anti-war movement around in circles for 8 years, continuing its practice of organizing safe protests which promote the organization, but do nothing to slow down the war or even bring us one day closer to abolishing the U.S. war machine. What's more, scarce movement resources have been diverted into A.N.S.W.E.R.'s organization, which has only helped promote the authoritarian politics of the W.W.P.. A.N.S.W.E.R. has squandered movement resources on symbolic protests in Washington and San Francisco which every seasoned activist can tell you are a waste of time. ANSWER isn't interested in ending any war--they want to be in control of any new social change movements that grow in the United States.

Keep trying to fight the status quo by playing your part in it. The authoritarian left's antiquated tactics -marches with mass produced signs and slogans repeated ad nauseum (down with U.S. imperialism, down with U.S. imperialism, Free Palestine free Palestine) accomplish nothing except turning themselves into a cariciature of what protestors look like and alienating anyone who isn't already a commited activist.

The bloc is in no way connected to A.N.S.W.E.R. The bloc is comitted to being an autonomous non-permitted action. (not to mention that A.N.S.W.E.R. and its puppet masters at the W.W.P. have habit of telling new members that "anarchists work for the C.I.A.")

The reality is that ANSWER (which, btw, is now connected with the Party for Socialism and Liberation PSL and not WWP), UFPJ and the IAC have all played leading roles in disorganizing the anti-war movement. The main problem isn't that their tactics aren't adventurous enough, it is their allegiance to the Democratic party. The IAC and UFPJ are the worst culprits, ANSWER isn't so bad on the Democratic party front but plays its own games to make the anti-war movement their own sand box.

Even the National Assembly has played a lousy role in capitulating to the Democrats by not having a demonstration before the elections and by initially leaving Afghanistan out of the organization's name to create unity with those people who see Afghanistan as the "good war".

Lastly, the specific criticisms raised by griffjam are simply petty. If those things were rectified the actual marches may or may not (I vote not) be more effective, but it would not change the social composition of the demonstrators or do anything to mobilize all those people outraged at the war but who have no outlet to express their opposition.

The solution to the state of the anti-war movement has to be political as well as logistical. When the leaders of the various coalitions stop diverting the movement into the electoral booths and off the streets we'll start to see progress. But with Obama in the whitehouse I expect that these demonstrations will just be one great big orgy of the leadership trying to "pressure" Obama like he is their best friend next door instead of what he really is, class enemy #1.

[griffjam]

You're pathetic. A.N.S.W.E.R. has organized every major anti-war, anti-racism and anti-police brutality rally in the country since 9/11. They've organized just about everything else in-between in a manner that no other group has done. There will be thousands of A.N.S.W.E.R. supporters participating. Instead if being divisive like your kind always seem to be, why don't you join us at the rally? You can be a separate group, but we are all standing against war and imperialism. If you're trying to stand against our rally, you're condoning imperialism and its cause by displacing our unification and standing against anti-imperialism. You don't have to support A.N.S.W.E.R. but why don't you stand beside us in the fight against imperialism instead of dividing our cause?

We pay for these numbers with stifled creativity and compromised goals. Ideas that would repel the media or expand a simple message beyond a slogan ("No Blood For Oil" or "Not My President") are avoided because they might provoke discussions and rifts of opinion, and thus reduce mass. The healthy internal debates, disagreements, and regional variations must be downplayed. Yet these are the very differences that make our resistance so fluid and flexible, leading to the brashest innovations.

In these sadly predictable situations, the soundbite is king. At all times, the eyes remain on the prize: size. The desires for mass and homogeneity (which go hand in hand) limit nonconformist and radical initiatives by those who want to try something different. A common complaint about creative or militant actions is that they will not play well in the media, that they will take away from our message or that they will perhaps alienate some constituency or another. Calls for conformity, usually in the form of cynical chest beating for "unity," are powerfully effective tools for censoring passionate resistance from those not beholden to mass politics. What is missing in our street demonstrations and in our communities is not unity, but genuine solidarity.

Mass organizations promise us security and strength in numbers. If you are willing to have your ideas, your issues and your initiatives consumed by the dinosaur, you will be protected in its ample belly. No doubt, many people are willing to temporarily subsume their messages and particular forms of resistance for safety. However the promise of safety, whether backed by protest permits or a huge list of supporters, are empty. The State has a long history of immobilizing mass movements: a dinosaur's supposed strength lies in its lumbering size. All the State needs to do is whittle away at any particular movement through arrests, co-optation, tiny concessions, intimidation, and "seats at the table."

[Kassad]

We pay for these numbers with stifled creativity and compromised goals. Ideas that would repel the media or expand a simple message beyond a slogan ("No Blood For Oil" or "Not My President") are avoided because they might provoke discussions and rifts of opinion, and thus reduce mass. The healthy internal debates, disagreements, and regional variations must be downplayed. Yet these are the very differences that make our resistance so fluid and flexible, leading to the brashest innovations.

In these sadly predictable situations, the soundbite is king. At all times, the eyes remain on the prize: size. The desires for mass and homogeneity (which go hand in hand) limit nonconformist and radical initiatives by those who want to try something different. A common complaint about creative or militant actions is that they will not play well in the media, that they will take away from our message or that they will perhaps alienate some constituency or another. Calls for conformity, usually in the form of cynical chest beating for "unity," are powerfully effective tools for censoring passionate resistance from those not beholden to mass politics. What is missing in our street demonstrations and in our communities is not unity, but genuine solidarity.

Mass organizations promise us security and strength in numbers. If you are willing to have your ideas, your issues and your initiatives consumed by the dinosaur, you will be protected in its ample belly. No doubt, many people are willing to temporarily subsume their messages and particular forms of resistance for safety. However the promise of safety, whether backed by protest permits or a huge list of supporters, are empty. The State has a long history of immobilizing mass movements: a dinosaur's supposed strength lies in its lumbering size. All the State needs to do is whittle away at any particular movement through arrests, co-optation, tiny concessions, intimidation, and "seats at the table."

Oh, well. I'm very sorry that our 'phrases' don't live up to your standards. I'll be sure to bring it up at the next meeting that our organization, which has organized nearly every major protest since 9/11, is a failure because we don't meet your standards. I suppose we had a good run.

Like I said, you ignore the true issue at hand. We are anti-war. Sorry if that isn't divisive as you'd like. We are anti-racism, homophobia and workers oppression. We're very apologetic if that isn't 'specific' enough for you. The reason your claims fail is that no specifics need to be made. We can unite a movement based on community organization and demonstrations. What do you expect us to say on our signs? "Proletariat unite! If you don't agree, kiss my ass!" Is that enough for you? It's ridiculous, since that is divisive. We can unite under common causes and we can educate the more 'liberal' people with more logical, liberation-based ideologies. That's the entire reason A.N.S.W.E.R. is here. We are anti-capitalist and our protests against capitalist tyranny should prove that. Ignorance is bliss, I suppose.

So... what do you suggest? You sure make a lot of criticisms and complaints, whereas you provide no real solutions. It seems you are suggesting that we reject permits and police orders and just go out and protest, right? It sure is a good idea to paint our organization as hostile, destructive and belligerent, right? No, because then the police and the state will have no restraint in subduing hundreds. Safe protests can be used to organize and educate and the bolstering numbers in A.N.S.W.E.R. and the Party for Socialism and Liberation would prove that our efforts are not futile. Not enough molotov cocktails though, right?

We aren't calling for conformity. Sorry. We're calling for the destruction of the belligerent capitalist war machine that enslaves societies and oppresses the disadvantaged. You complain a lot for someone with no solutions. Until then, we will continue to do what has worked for us and we will perservere through education and the advocacy of liberation, whereas your ideology leads us further and further into terror-based tactics and a hostile attitude towards society.

[griffjam]

The dreams of anarchists are the nightmares of the small time dinosaurs: whether they take the form of Washington politicos, well-paid union officials, or party bureaucrats. Within a diverse swarm of individuals and small groups, resistance can be anywhere and anytime, everywhere, and all the time. In the years since the late nineties, the mixture of the anti-globalization convergences, local activism and campaigns, travelers, techies, and solidarity with international resistances has created something new in North America. We are replacing the Mass Movement with a swarm of movements where there's no need to stifle our passions, hid our creativity, or subdue our militancy. For the impatient, it will appear that we are too few and gaining only small victories. Yet once we drop the pretensions to mass supremacy, we can learn that smallness is not only beautiful, but also powerful.

[Kassad]

I'm sure it is. It also fails to maintain grassroots support or do anything to promote education within bourgeoisie elections or to educate the masses on a wider scale. Numbers does not necessarily imply power, a just cause or anything of the like, but it sure maintains that a presence will be felt and that cause has much more potential at community organization and education than any tiny collective. A.N.S.W.E.R. has never stifled its creativity, its passion or its ideology to appeal to the masses or to increase numbers. Your baseless assertions are not only unfounded, but they are downright logical fallacies.

[griffjam]

Anarchists are creating a culture that allows more and more people to break free from the reign of the dinosaurs. At present, our agitation and propaganda are often just sparks to inflame the heart, not actual flames of revolution. This has provoked both impatience and cynicism in some, but anarchists should be confident. We are creating a revolution in which we don't just control the means of production, but on where we actually control our own lives.

There is no science of change. Revolution is not scientific. Activists should not be specialists in social change any more than artists should be experts in self-expression. The great lie of all experts is their claim to have access to the exclusive, the untouchable, even the unimaginable. The experts of revolution, unloved and untenured, demand many things besides your allegiance. Above all they demand efficiency -- a place in the well-oiled machine.

In place of backyard gardens and public transportation, efficiency has created genetically engineered food and highways with sixteen lanes. Efficiency demands the illusion of progress no matter how meaningless. Our rejection of efficiency has led to many amazing projects. Food Not Bombs may not be the most efficient way to deliver food to those who are hungry, but they are often more effective in their aims and more meaningful than any government program, religious handout, or efficient corporation. McDonalds promises us a quick, efficient version of the dining experience; isn't that the exact opposite of what we want our world to look like? Efficiency drives many campaigns and projects; too many activists have made themselves into characters as unbelievable and shallow as those in television commercials. Their quest for efficient, marketable issues has brought them into a competition with businesses, governments and other activists for the imagination of the public.

Like mass, efficiency is a key deity in the pantheon of dinosaur thought. There is nothing wrong with the desire to get things done; some necessary projects never hover far from drudgery and are best finished as quickly as possible. Yet our personal relationships and shared desires for change are not things to be hurried through, pre-recorded, and made-for-television.

The hedged bet of the efficient activist is that since freedom is never lived but only discussed, all changes must be preplanned and tedious. These experts include the bureacrats shaking in their loafers at the thought of a folk revolt without the Party's permission or guidance. Such people have dragged their heels through revolutionary history: today they are the ones that fear the chaos of a demostration, or talk about class struggle without reference to what is revolutionary about the refusal of constraints in daily life. Yes, they are precisely the ones with corpses in their mouths! They shiver at the thought that ideas of the people who hold them might get out of hand. For the self-proclaimed experts in social change, the most efficient demonstration is one with a single clear message, clear audience, and preplanned script... preferably a script written by them.

Will we ape these politcal machines? Will we ache to be State-like? The Leftist version of the machine will once again grind down differences to create a final product: the End of History, Utopia, The Revolution. The machines consume our vitality and contribute to the burnout so widespread in our communities. A mass mailing might be more efficient than talking to strangers, or setting up a lemonade stand in the park, but it isn't necessarily more effective. There is something to be said for taking the long route from here to there.

Any time we leave our problems to be fixed by experts, we cede a little more of our autonomy. The judges, the professors, the scientists, the politicians, the cops, the bankers: these are the engines of efficiency. Their tools can never transform our relationships or our society; they only calcify and harden the fucked-up ones we already have. In their world their will always be consumers and consumed, prisoners and captors, debtors and shareholders. The small dinosaurs who challenge the large ones may want to change the world, but they'll do so according to a master plan written by armchair experts.

[Asoka89]

You're pathetic. A.N.S.W.E.R. has organized every major anti-war, anti-racism and anti-police brutality rally in the country since 9/11. They've organized just about everything else in-between in a manner that no other group has done. There will be thousands of A.N.S.W.E.R. supporters participating. Instead if being divisive like your kind always seem to be, why don't you join us at the rally? You can be a separate group, but we are all standing against war and imperialism. If you're trying to stand against our rally, you're condoning imperialism and its cause by displacing our unification and standing against anti-imperialism. You don't have to support A.N.S.W.E.R. but why don't you stand beside us in the fight against imperialism instead of dividing our cause?

Really??? This is just FALSE.

United for Peace and Justice has organized the largest anti-war protesters. I'm based in DC and have worked with ANSWER in the past, and I'm volunteering for the March 21st demo--- if the anarchists want to have a black bloc more power to them, I think organizing and politicizing is more important than destroying stuff, but I wouldnt cry for a few Starbucks windows.

And ANSWER is largely controlled by the WWP/PSL; they defend authoritarian regimes. But they are leftists and they do good activism so at this juncture I'm with them.

[KC]

I love how griffjam just responds with vague "anti-authoritarian" rants; his rhetoric is about as concrete as the proposed solutions these "anarchists" put forward.:rolleyes:

[Kassad]

Really??? This is just FALSE.

United for Peace and Justice has organized the largest anti-war protesters. I'm based in DC and have worked with ANSWER in the past, and I'm volunteering for the March 21st demo--- if the anarchists want to have a black bloc more power to them, I think organizing and politicizing is more important than destroying stuff, but I wouldnt cry for a few Starbucks windows.

And ANSWER is largely controlled by the WWP/PSL; they defend authoritarian regimes. But they are leftists and they do good activism so at this juncture I'm with them.

Okay... no. Every major rally I've attended has been co-sponsored by United for Peace and Justice, since back in 2005, they were more interested in petty, divisive whining than actually getting things done. United for Peace and Justice is also renowned for claiming responsibility for rallies that A.N.S.W.E.R. planned without contributing any monetary support whatsoever. United for Peace and Justice is incredibly unorganized and divisive and if you view pictures from most major rallies, you will see that the yellow A.N.S.W.E.R. Coalition signs are pre-dominant, since we organize and provide materials, such as signs and fliers, for just about everything. United for Peace and Justice does nothing.

[Wanted Man]

The dreams of anarchists are the nightmares of the small time dinosaurs: whether they take the form of Washington politicos, well-paid union officials, or party bureaucrats. Within a diverse swarm of individuals and small groups, resistance can be anywhere and anytime, everywhere, and all the time. In the years since the late nineties, the mixture of the anti-globalization convergences, local activism and campaigns, travelers, techies, and solidarity with international resistances has created something new in North America. We are replacing the Mass Movement with a swarm of movements where there's no need to stifle our passions, hid our creativity, or subdue our militancy. For the impatient, it will appear that we are too few and gaining only small victories. Yet once we drop the pretensions to mass supremacy, we can learn that smallness is not only beautiful, but also powerful.
So what will you actually do? :confused:

[Cumannach]

That's all very well griffjam, meanwhile the Bourgeoisie waste no time in organizing their forces, on a very large scale..

[TC]

I love how griffjam just responds with vague "anti-authoritarian" rants; his rhetoric is about as concrete as the proposed solutions these "anarchists" put forward.:rolleyes:


is he for real or a parody to make fun of anarchists do you think?

[Kassad]

Anarchists are notable for attempting to steal crowds and supporters away from A.N.S.W.E.R. rallies. I recall them planning some sort of book festival intentionally on the same day as one of our rallies after we had already set the date. Being divisive and arrogant as usual, they refused to change the date of their event and the attendance for both events was horrendous. They claim that they're rejecting name recognition and media popularity, but it seems like the only reason they are so upset is because they get absolutely no recognition in the anti-war movement, since they are totally belligerent and unorganized. What you're witnessing is the usual thing. Whine and pout, but when it comes time to unite, act divisive and petty.

[KC]

is he for real or a parody to make fun of anarchists do you think?

I don't think it's possible to parody a Crimethinc anarchist. How can you get more ridiculous and pathetic than that?

[griffjam]

That's all very well griffjam, meanwhile the Bourgeoisie waste no time in organizing their forces, on a very large scale..

On the side of power they have the police, banks, media, courts, church, and military. So why are so many of you here content to try and challenge that with antiquated ideologies that preach that liberation can only be achieved through the use of strikes and solidarity? Capital and the state wont hesitate to use everything they have to protect the institutions of property and privilege, yet you insist on leaving out valuable tools (mutual aid, theft, sabotage, and counter culture.)

Play with a full deck, they are.

[KC]

Cool story bro

[Kassad]

Let's all be hostile, destructive and belligerent people. Smash windows and burn cars. That will get the proletariat on our side! "Hey! Those kids are burning cars! I've awoken from my bourgeoisie-induced slumber! Class consciousness is here; workers of the world, unite!"

Seriously, man. Don't be childish.

[griffjam]

A night of sabotage will not transform a society from Capitalist and Authoritarian to Free and Community-based. But it's what some people have chosen in their own communities, as a way of acting out against those forces which oppress them. Because holding signs and asking questions, in their communities, have not proven to be effective. Maybe in your community, cops become accountable after a public rally on the sidewalk. In others, it takes more than that.

[Kassad]

A night of sabotage will not transform a society from Capitalist and Authoritarian to Free and Community-based. But it's what some people have chosen in their own communities, as a way of acting out against those forces which oppress them. Because holding signs and asking questions, in their communities, have not proven to be effective. Maybe in your community, cops become accountable after a public rally on the sidewalk. In others, it takes more than that.

A.N.S.W.E.R. protests continually draw in larger numbers, more volunteers and more support with each rally we organize. We are increasing the number of politically active citizens across the country through education, which is uniting a mass movement to fight the ails of society. Your group, on the other hand, thinks that they will get somewhere by punching cops and settting cars on fire.

[Dave_OI!]

wow now i see why anarchists are hated even by the left:( im embarrassed. guys not all anarchists are stupid little kids with gas and matches. there are those of us who seek to educate the mass and use civilized means of getting our point across. also it seems to me this kid is nothing more than a sheep.

[Kassad]

wow now i see why anarchists are hated even by the left:( im embarrassed. guys not all anarchists are stupid little kids with gas and matches. there are those of us who seek to educate the mass and use civilized means of getting our point across. also it seems to me this kid is nothing more than a sheep.

I assume you're referring to him. At least someone intelligent is in the thread.

[Dave_OI!]

that kid is a disgrace to anarchist ideals. anarchy does not mean chaos. kids like you are the reason anarchists are labeled terrorists:cursing: you have to black bloc everything and hurt innocent people in the process thats not very anarchist thats nihilistic. go play pipe bomb with your buddies. and leave the politics to the mature ones.

[StalinFanboy]

wow now i see why anarchists are hated even by the left:( im embarrassed. guys not all anarchists are stupid little kids with gas and matches. there are those of us who seek to educate the mass and use civilized means of getting our point across. also it seems to me this kid is nothing more than a sheep.

Yes, damn those workers! They obviously have no idea how to live their lives, so we must come in and save them.

[Dave_OI!]

Yes, damn those workers! They obviously have no idea how to live their lives, so we must come in and save them.

and they say sarcasm doesnt work on the internet. i dont think smashing windows and general destruction in any way helps the cause of the anarchist. all you do when you do that is affect the lives of innocent people.

[griffjam]

and they say sarcasm doesnt work on the internet. i dont think smashing windows and general destruction in any way helps the cause of the anarchist. all you do when you do that is affect the lives of innocent people.

dear fascist,
have you ever actually done... anything?

[Revy]

Sectarianism aside, they are organizing.

[griffjam]

all you do when you do that is affect the lives of innocent people.

From the perspective of the slave who rebels, power is both the bosses' orders and the obedience of the other slaves who carry them out. Domination is a relationship, not a condition; it depends on participation of both parties. Hierarchical power is not just the gun in the pig's hand; it is just as much the obedience of the ones who act as if it is always pointed at them. It is not just the government and the executives and the armed forces: it extends through society from top to bottom, as an interlocking web of control and compliance. Sometimes all it takes to be complicit in the oppression of millions is to be a slave who dies of natural causes. Innocent bystander is a contradiction in terms.

[Kassad]

From the perspective of the slave who rebels, power is both the bosses' orders and the obedience of the other slaves who carry them out. Domination is a relationship, not a condition; it depends on participation of both parties. Hierarchical power is not just the gun in the pig's hand; it is just as much the obedience of the ones who act as if it is always pointed at them. It is not just the government and the executives and the armed forces: it extends through society from top to bottom, as an interlocking web of control and compliance. Sometimes all it takes to be complicit in the oppression of millions is to be a slave who dies of natural causes. Innocent bystander is a contradiction in terms.

Hell yeah! Force that class consciousness! Jam the barrel of that gun down his throat and let the revolution begin! :rolleyes:

[Dave_OI!]

dear fascist,
have you ever actually done... anything?

you are a kid arent you. resorting to infantile remarks like that only lessens your credibility

[Charles Xavier]

A.N.S.W.E.R. has led the anti-war movement around in circles for 8 years, continuing its practice of organizing safe protests which promote the organization, but do nothing to slow down the war or even bring us one day closer to abolishing the U.S. war machine. What's more, scarce movement resources have been diverted into A.N.S.W.E.R.'s organization, which has only helped promote the authoritarian politics of the W.W.P.. A.N.S.W.E.R. has squandered movement resources on symbolic protests in Washington and San Francisco which every seasoned activist can tell you are a waste of time. ANSWER isn't interested in ending any war--they want to be in control of any new social change movements that grow in the United States.

Keep trying to fight the status quo by playing your part in it. The authoritarian left's antiquated tactics -marches with mass produced signs and slogans repeated ad nauseum (down with U.S. imperialism, down with U.S. imperialism, Free Palestine free Palestine) accomplish nothing except turning themselves into a cariciature of what protestors look like and alienating anyone who isn't already a commited activist.

The bloc is in no way connected to A.N.S.W.E.R. The bloc is comitted to being an autonomous non-permitted action. (not to mention that A.N.S.W.E.R. and its puppet masters at the W.W.P. have habit of telling new members that "anarchists work for the C.I.A.")


I fail to see how any protest regardless of how violent or revolutionary they are will convince the bourgeoisie not to go to war or defeat imperialism. This has never happened in history ever, maybe you are trying to prove history wrong. Please check your ideology again. I mean the iraqi people protest every day, doesn't convince the Americans from machine gunning them down!

[StalinFanboy]

and they say sarcasm doesnt work on the internet. i dont think smashing windows and general destruction in any way helps the cause of the anarchist. all you do when you do that is affect the lives of innocent people.
To me, the bourgeoisie aren't innocent. Neither are police.

Off topic: Are you RASH?

[griffjam]

i fail to see how any protest regardless of how violent or revolutionary they are will convince the bourgeoisie not to go to war or defeat imperialism. This has never happened in history ever, maybe you are trying to prove history wrong. Please check your ideology again. I mean the iraqi people protest every day, doesn't convince the americans from machine gunning them down!

Cointelpro Warning

[catalyst]

I don't think it's possible to parody a Crimethinc anarchist. How can you get more ridiculous and pathetic than that? Take Russian totalitarians seriously?


Let's all be hostile, destructive and belligerent people. Smash windows and burn cars. That will get the proletariat on our side! "Hey! Those kids are burning cars! I've awoken from my bourgeoisie-induced slumber! Class consciousness is here; workers of the world, unite!"

Seriously, man. Don't be childish.

Children need leaders to show them the more appropriate way. It isn't about workers. It's about revolt.


A.N.S.W.E.R. protests continually draw in larger numbers, more volunteers and more support with each rally we organize. We are increasing the number of politically active citizens across the country through education, which is uniting a mass movement to fight the ails of society. Your group, on the other hand, thinks that they will get somewhere by punching cops and settting cars on fire.

And leading the Left away from the mistakes of the Old Guard.. ahem New Left. And coming up with active solutions to Capitalism. Ahem, Common Ground.


and they say sarcasm doesnt work on the internet. i dont think smashing windows and general destruction in any way helps the cause of the anarchist. all you do when you do that is affect the lives of innocent people.

see Bakunin. Destruction and construction is the basis of anarchism.


I fail to see how any protest regardless of how violent or revolutionary they are will convince the bourgeoisie not to go to war or defeat imperialism. This has never happened in history ever, maybe you are trying to prove history wrong. Please check your ideology again. I mean the iraqi people protest every day, doesn't convince the Americans from machine gunning them down!

Exactly. Except for the recent anomaly in Iceland.. (anarchists)

This is why if you are going to protest, you should do it with passion. On the flipside, ANSWER frequently welcomes the anarchists. Not for protection, but rather for insurrectionary activity. Social revolt inspires people. Holding signs mostly wastes trees.

[Kassad]

...Common ground? Do you think you know what A.N.S.W.E.R. is just because you read one of your little Anarchist blogs that told you they're 'Stalinists' and 'apologists?' Good morning to you, good sir. I was converted to Marxism-Leninism a while back when I was just a reformist. I'm not the only one. Just because we attempt to educate reformists and liberals, doesn't mean we're finding common ground with the capitalist elite and the bourgeoisie. You're incredibly narrow-minded for not realizing that A.N.S.W.E.R. is operated by a socialist party that advocates revolution, not social reform.

I forgot. We don't riot and burn things, so we aren't a legitimate group. You're only legitimate when you wave black flags and set things on fire, right? Since that's done some great things for the proletariat of the world.

Get your facts straight. Kay? Kay.

[StalinFanboy]

I forgive you for forgetting.

[R_P_A_S]

So...wait. Two groups, who agree that the war needs to end and troops need to be brought home, are having theoretically oppositional demonstrations on the same day in the same city?

For fuck's sake.

LMAO! I know right.. wow

[Honggweilo]

@griffjam

vague situationist mediocre poethic brabble is sooooooo 1968

I hear RAAN is planning to smash up kindergardens and lure the toddlers out to smoke some ganja, smash the fucking system y'all!

[griffjam]

vague situationist mediocre poethic brabble is sooooooo 1968


so an anti-revisionist marxist is going to preach about anachronisms?:laugh:

[TC]

I forgot. We don't riot and burn things, so we aren't a legitimate group. You're only legitimate when you wave black flags and set things on fire, right? Since that's done some great things for the proletariat of the world.


Actually I think the crimethincer 'anarchist' line is "You're only legitimate when you wave black flags" only, not "and set things on fire", because they're too much cowards to actually set anything on fire (apart from, at best, placards in the middle of a street, and even then, probably not). Its the black flags that count and make them feel all tough and manly.

[StalinFanboy]

@griffjam

vague situationist mediocre poethic brabble is sooooooo 1968

I hear RAAN is planning to smash up kindergardens and lure the toddlers out to smoke some ganja, smash the fucking system y'all!
That's how we do it.

[StalinFanboy]

Actually I think the crimethincer 'anarchist' line is "You're only legitimate when you wave black flags" only, not "and set things on fire", because they're too much cowards to actually set anything on fire (apart from, at best, placards in the middle of a street, and even then, probably not). Its the black flags that count and make them feel all tough and manly.
What the fuck? Manly? Rofl.

[Dave_OI!]

so let me ask you two this then: a soccer mom and two sons walk into lets say a starbucks. there you guys are outside protesting waving your black flags and and throwing bricks and molitavs. one of your bricks flus through a window at the starbucks hitting a little kid in the face. now you wouldnt feel bad cuz the boy isnt an innocent cuz his mom like starbucks coffee?

anarchy is about liberation and destruction of state not people and personal property

no im not a RASH im SHARP

[StalinFanboy]

so let me ask you two this then: a soccer mom and two sons walk into lets say a starbucks. there you guys are outside protesting waving your black flags and and throwing bricks and molitavs. one of your bricks flus through a window at the starbucks hitting a little kid in the face. now you wouldnt feel bad cuz the boy isnt an innocent cuz his mom like starbucks coffee?

anarchy is about liberation and destruction of state not people and personal property

no im not a RASH im SHARP
I don't see how shopping at starbucks makes you bourgeois... And I highly doubt people would be shopping at starbucks during a riot. lol

[Dave_OI!]

oh and i agree with the whole cop thing. forced confessions through intimidation, tampering with evidence, and whole list of other douche bag activities

[Dave_OI!]

when i said innocent i meant the common person. and theres always someone in a starbucks especially if the riot just broke out. and im not saying theres never a time for a full fledged riot. but at an antiwar protest where theres going to be other protesters isnt the place or time

[GPDP]

I'd like to hear what wanton acts of destruction and mayhem at a protest are exactly supposed to accomplish and how they are effective without spouting off grandiose and sectarian crimethinc-esque statements.

[StalinFanboy]

I'd like to hear what wanton acts of destruction and mayhem at a protest are exactly supposed to accomplish and how they are effective without spouting off grandiose and sectarian crimethinc-esque statements.
Economic damage. That's generally the justification. Especially for the riots that happened in Seattle during the WTO protests. More recently, in Oakland, CA, the rioting that happened wasn't political. It was pure anger. Anger at the cops. Anger at the system. I actually heard from a friend who was there that the owner of one of the cars that was fucked with said he was upset, but wasn't angry at the rioters because he knew the cause of the riot, and agreed with it.

Anway, the main reason for "fucking shit up" is economic damage. When kids are out on the streets smashing the windows of gap, starbucks, etc. they are taking money out of the pockets of the owners of those corporations. And when people start looting, not only are they taking money out of the hands of the bourgeoisie, but they are also obtaining things at no cost to them. I think it's empowering (along with theft).

[Joe Hill's Ghost]

Actually I think the crimethincer 'anarchist' line is "You're only legitimate when you wave black flags" only, not "and set things on fire", because they're too much cowards to actually set anything on fire (apart from, at best, placards in the middle of a street, and even then, probably not). Its the black flags that count and make them feel all tough and manly.

Eh no, setting things on fire is a big part of it. The typical DC black bloc just usually fails to do so because there's 800 police for every man women child and dog carrying a bandanna. It's all gotten rather silly these years, as each time ANSWER/UFPJ or any other peace outfit puts out a call for a protest crawl about the monuments, "anarchists" (or police provocateurs, you never know) put out a counter call for a black block. Then surprise, surprise! The police swarm said call's meeting place.

Thankfully there are no mass arrest laws or we'd be holding fundraisers for these folk's bail every 6 months. And to be honest I'm really fucking tired of holding fundraisers for people getting arrested for silly actions. We do it in the name of solidarity, but godamn people lets think strategically before throwing x thing at y window! Anywho, after the bloc departs the police play cat and mouse with the protesters and nothing really happens. All in all a masturbatory waste of time. The rest of DC residents just sort of look on, scratching their heads.

To anyone planning on attending...please don't, its a big ol waste of time and carbon emissions. Stay in your town and shut down a recruitment center or something. That will help hasten the war, these peace crawls and circle A snake marches most certantly do not.

[Honggweilo]

so an anti-revisionist marxist is going to preach about anachronisms?:laugh:
Now hold on there Johnny Black, nihilist lifestylism has been around since the dawn of man, ur p0litikal line are t3h dinosore :rolleyes:

[griffjam]

Now hold on there Johnny Black, nihilist lifestylism has been around since the dawn of man, ur p0litikal line are t3h dinosore :rolleyes:

how does rejecting nihilism, lifestylism (which I believe doesn't even exist, but if by lifestylism you mean devoting my entire life as opposed to being a weekend, cookie-cutter activist whose most subversive act is using a proxy to post on revleft during their lunchbreak at the office, then I guess I am a lifestylist), and all "p0litikal lines", make me a "nihilist lifestylist whose political line makes me 't3h dinosore?'"

[AvanteRedGarde]

ANSWER are protest bureaucrats. They, along with UFPJ, have led the anti-war movement nowhere. In fact, under their leadership, the anti-war movement is basically dead. Is this any surprise? Have you been to a 'protest' lately? They are about as exciting as watching the grass grow. All this common demominator bullshit and popular front tactics are bankrupt. In my opinion, radicals and revolutionaries should permanently jettison large protest bureacracies in favor of smaller, more direct and spontaneous actions.

That said, the anti-war movement was never signifigant in large part because Americans support the wars. This is a historical trend, not limitted to Iraq and Afghanistan. All of this talk about an abstract proletarian is a load of dogma. I support the anti-capitalist bloc, but I wouldn't expect anything all that great to come out of it (no, no connection to the so called American working masses, they're too busy enjoying their willful ignorance.)

[Kassad]

Anti-ANSWER folk are always quite cute. I'm definitely interested in hearing where this powerful, influential, anti-capitalist group of anarchists was. I looked for black and red flags and usually found people around the age of 13-15 with black flags and patches for neat anti-capitalist bands like Anti-Flag and The Dead Kennedys. They were also very fond of their studded belts and incredibly tight pants. Smashing the state has never been so cool!

Regardless, this protest was incredible. The media is reporting around 3,000 people at the event, but that's completely absurd. There were at least 7,000 people there, but I wouldn't be surprised to find estimates as high as 9,000 or 10,000 people. ANSWER was, of course, the primary organizer. They made the vast majority of the signs, banners and coffins we used (we delivered fake coffins draped in America/Iraq/Afghanistan/Somalia/Palestine/Pakistan/Yemen flags to corporate offices in Virginia. I left after we delivered some to Boeing, because honestly, I could not walk another step.

There was a very nice presence from Code Pink and despite how ridiculous these people can be, they're a blast to work with. Some of the most fun people I've ever talked to. World Can't Wait, despite their incredibly liberal attitude and struggle to maintain relevance in the anti-war movement, had a table that showed up incredibly late and they attempted to do one of their orange jumpsuit/black bag "die in" sort of thing, but I never saw them do it, so I assume they didn't get enough people. Never been a huge fan of it anyway.

There was a massive assortment of parties and organizations there. Workers World showed up, as well as the Socialist Workers Party, Socialist Appeal/International Marxist Tendency, Freedom Socialist Organization and International Socialist Organization. It was papers galore, but frankly, none of these parties managed to stand resolute in the face of the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

The PSL printed off a few hundred red signs that said "Racism + War + Cutbacks = Capitalism". This was done in a vertical math problem, though, so it was just one plus sign. It stated 'The Alternative? Socialism!' with a link to our website. These were carried by almost as many people as were carrying ANSWER signs, which made me incredibly happy. The PSL distributed its paper, literature and lists for people to receive information to join. The lists were packed, so I was very ecstatic to see that. The PSL also carried two banners throughout the rally and distributed its paper to people during the pre-march affairs. In truth, the PSL managed to be much more active than any other party or group, as most of them remained at their tables, whereas the PSL was incredibly active and vocal. There's a reason we're growing so incredibly quickly.

We marched past the Lincoln Memorial, across the Potomac River, around the Pentagon and then into Virginia where we delivered the coffins to Boeing and other corporations. Counter-protests consisted of only 10-20 people right after the bridge. Despite their reactionary and illogical slogans, their petty voices were drowned out by the chants of "This is what democracy looks like (pointing at the rally); that is what hypocrisy looks like (pointing at the counter-protesters)! Police lined the protest near the Pentagon and in the city, armed with rifles and tear gas cannons, as well as dogs. Their reactionary policies and use is outdated, as is the decadent system they defend.

This was an incredible day. I urge all of you to visit the ANSWER website (in my signature) and volunteer with the branch nearest you. We will definitely have many more events in the future that I hope you will all take part in.

[TC]

Amusingly and ironically enough, this time the uniformed cops made no attempt to police the anarchists. Instead, they sent a couple of under cover cops dressed badly as anarchists to try to incite the crowed by getting on a mega phone and rattling off some bullshit about 'racism' in ANSWER (the PSL incidently, runs non-white candidates exclusively) while getting out orange netting and having another undercover agent smash a window. Those who were watching closely would notice that these 'anarchists' later crossed back behind the police lines at the end of the march to join their uniformed colleagues.

http://dc.indymedia.org/newswire/display/145816/index.php

My real question is that if the above post on indymedia was actually posted by a police officer, or if its gotten to the point where the anarchists trying to split the movement can't tell the difference between their comrades and the agent provocatours trying to do the same thing!

[Kassad]

TC, thank you so much for posting this. I'm a PSL member and had talked with many of the organizers before the rally, so they asked me and a friend of mine to get in front of the rally (basically face to face with the police officers) once we reached the Boeing building. At this point, a truck pulled up with a few ANSWER/PSL members in the bed of it (Eugene Puryear, the PSL's vice presidential candidate in 2008 is one of the most notable). At this point, we began chanting and then a few of them gave a speech. At this point, we were carrying the coffins when chants behind us got incredibly loud and a lot of confusion ensued. The current speaker (high enough to see what was happening) noted that 'someone' was attempting to split up the protest, who I assumed was the police at first. He then said that 'security, let me point out that these people attempting to block our march are not with ANSWER or any of our affiliates and we respectfully ask that those who are ignorant towards ANSWER and their ideology to go home and end your divisive actions (Rephrased). At this point, we continued marching to the other buildings (I finished there). Regardless, though, I'm not surprised that this happened. I did not see the fence or the anarchists at the time, but whether it was undercover police or anarchists themselves, I would not be surprised either way. I can say this whether it was police or anarchists breaking up the rally: I'm not surprised that you are so ignorant and divisive, but let it be known that you will not impede the struggle. It's a shame that I can group them both together like that, but such is life.

Also, by the way, the PSL is very racist. Of course, we shroud it in the veil of running a Mexican-American for Mayor of Los Angeles, a Mexican-American for President, a black man for Vice-President and an assortment of Asian Americans, Hispanics and Whites for office during 2008. Have to be sneaky.

[Wanted Man]

Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with American politics, but what's with all the ridiculous race-baiting in those Indy comments, on the site of this APOC, etc.?

Guy: I think it was ridiculous to do the cops' work by trying to smash an anti-war rally.
Other guy: Oh, I see how it is. So those damn people of colour should just march behind white stalinists? Fuck tokenization, smack a white boy!

:confused:

Maybe US anarchists are just exceptional mouth breathers.

[JimmyJazz]

Maybe I'm just not familiar enough with American politics, but what's with all the ridiculous race-baiting in those Indy comments, on the site of this APOC, etc.?

Guy: I think it was ridiculous to do the cops' work by trying to smash an anti-war rally.
Other guy: Oh, I see how it is. So those damn people of colour should just march behind white stalinists? Fuck tokenization, smack a white boy!

:confused:

Maybe US anarchists are just exceptional mouth breathers.

It definitely seems to me there is a difference between North American anarchism and anarchism elsewhere. Anarchism as a movement, I mean.

http://www.seesharppress.com/listen.html

I'm not the only person who's come to this conclusion; I know a few other Americans who started out as anarchists and then turned to libertarian Marxism, after getting fed up with the lifestylism and terrible politics. I also have several anarchist friends who, amidst all the vegan activism and anti-cop stuff, hardly ever utter the word "working class", and who I barely even consider to be on the left politically.

Needless to say they are a far cry from the type of anarchist who is a member of the IWW. I have actually invited one anarchist friend to join the IWW, and they weren't really interested, in fact I got the feeling they didn't even know much about the IWW. And the IWW is originally an American organization! The same person, IIRC, had never heard of the Anarchist FAQ. Yet they'd been an "anarchist" for over a year. It's just weird how isolated American anarchists tend to be from any real knowledge of the historical movement they name themselves after. If you told them that an anarchist named Bakunin argued theory with Marx in the first Workers' International, they'd probably be surprised and make a comment like, "if I was in the room with Marx, I'd kick his ass!" Seriously.

Speaking of the Wobs, the IWW in my town went through ANSWER when they arranged to have a book table at yesterday's demo.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Kassad, don't you think there are certain criticisms of this type of protest to be made?

For instance, it is so mild: people walking down the street, as planned, from point A to point B with little room or desire for spontaneity in between. The protest ended. For the most part, people went back to their normal lives, etc, etc. Nothing changed, etc etc.

Do you seriously think the APOC crowd are just cops, or are their frustrations with the anti-war movement genuine?

In my opinion also, running a "people of color" candidate does not count as anti-racism. It's identity politics and the Democrats beat you guys to that punch. APOC and others are right to point this out in a comradely way.

Don't get me wrong, from the action, it sounds like PSL did many commendable things. But lets be serious. Handing out thousands of flyers and papers says nothing in regards to politics. To me, it indicates that the PSL has more resources than those who had to guard their tables (as well as more enthusiasm for their specific project). But like I said, it says nothing about the actual politics of the PSL- besides that they make boring, monotanous, scripted demonstrations sound more exciting than they really are.

Like I said, this isn't an attack on PSL, but a criticism that is shared by many groups and trends.

Your thoughts?

[Kassad]

I'll address you point by point. First of all, a march is incredibly symbolic. A consistent criticism of the left is that we are never organized; a sprawling mass of ideologies than cannot unite to forge social change. A march of 10,000 in Washington, hand in hand with thousands across the country, sends a strong message: the people, united, will never be defeated. Also, these rallies are, by far, the largest recruitment drives for the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Our membership numbers are exploding, especially in key activist centers. After only four years of existence, the PSL was able to obtain more votes than the Socialist Workers Party and Socialist Party USA. That speaks depths, despite how tiny the numbers are currently.

Frankly, I don't see why their grievances should ever be considered genuine, for the reasons I stated above. We are attempting to formulate a mass movement against capitalism and racism. No one organizes and educates better than ANSWER and consistent growth in membership for the Party for Socialism and Liberation shows how successful this is.

We aren't running people of color to claim we aren't racist. We could run all white candidates for all I care, but claiming the PSL is racist is a fallacious, unsupported assertion that isn't even worth addressing. We're for affirmative action, equal pay for all races and genders, as well as for total immigrant rights. How do people bend this message as racist?

At a time that is critically important to revolutionary struggle, it is necessary to educate the masses. At this current time, a revolutionary movement would never gain power. Sustaining it would be surreal. It takes a lot of time, activism and organization to jump this critical hurdle and the things the PSL are doing to increase awareness, class consciousness and activism are exactly what needs to be done. And this isn't just ANSWER rallies, though ANSWER organizes nearly every large protest in the country. The PSL has access to more materials, as you said, but the PSL also has the clearest and strongest message: we need a revolutionary party; not just a paper and not just a leader. We need a working class party to unite the workers movement. No other party promotes this ideology in the same manner and that is why the PSL is growing consistently, while many other sectarian, reformist or flawed organizations are losing members and influence.

[Wanted Man]

APOC and others are right to point this out in a comradely way.
"Smack a white boy"
A Brownie A Day Keeps Whitey Away"

Oh, and the whole idea that the PSL's non-white leaders are "tokens" is pretty funny. Let me guess, they're race traitors and uncle toms too?

Sounds comradely to me... And I guess it's also very comradely to help the pigs smash up an anti-war demo.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Kassad. Thanks for the responce.

I never claimed to support APOC's actions, but their criticisms certainly shouldn't be brushed aside. It seems that criticism is squarely based on how to create a revolutionary movement- ideally a comradely disagreement. That said, i think APOC's basic theoretical approach is also incorrect.

[TC]

Oh, and the whole idea that the PSL's non-white leaders are "tokens" is pretty funny. Let me guess, they're race traitors and uncle toms too?

You were being sarcastic as you just assumed that they wouldn't go so far as to say that the PSL's non-white leaders are "uncle toms", but they actually did just that and referred to the PSL's vice presidential candidate as an 'uncle tom"

"And the hell with that Uncle Tom Eugene used as a impotent token by ANSWER."

This is, of course, additionally moronic considering that their presidential candidate and highest profile leader Gloria La Riva is Latina. In fact it seems that Brian Becker is closer to the 'token white' leader in the PSL in that, every single other leader in the PSL and WWP I can think of, including all of their current and past presidential, vice presidential, congressional and mayoral candidates, have been non-white. John Parker, Teresa Gutierrez, Monica Moorehead, Cynthia McKinny (endorced by WWP in 2008) Larry Holmes, Carlos Alvarez, none of them are white. In 2008, the PSL ran 12 candidates, only three of them were white.

[PRC-UTE]

Kassad, don't you think there are certain criticisms of this type of protest to be made?

For instance, it is so mild: people walking down the street, as planned, from point A to point B with little room or desire for spontaneity in between. The protest ended. For the most part, people went back to their normal lives, etc, etc. Nothing changed, etc etc.

Do you seriously think the APOC crowd are just cops, or are their frustrations with the anti-war movement genuine?

In my opinion also, running a "people of color" candidate does not count as anti-racism. It's identity politics and the Democrats beat you guys to that punch. APOC and others are right to point this out in a comradely way.

Don't get me wrong, from the action, it sounds like PSL did many commendable things. But lets be serious. Handing out thousands of flyers and papers says nothing in regards to politics. To me, it indicates that the PSL has more resources than those who had to guard their tables (as well as more enthusiasm for their specific project). But like I said, it says nothing about the actual politics of the PSL- besides that they make boring, monotanous, scripted demonstrations sound more exciting than they really are.

Like I said, this isn't an attack on PSL, but a criticism that is shared by many groups and trends.

Your thoughts?

I share, to a very limited extent these criticisms, because I think the direction of the anti-war movement should be oriented towards working class struggle, not just symbolic marches (however let me make it clear that I am not in the know, for all I know the PSL is working in this area, too). I remember reading about the strike actions that took place in the USA which so threatened the war machine that there was talk of the US army intervening.

However, your comments about more spontaneity and so on are not really helfpul

However we have to hand it to ANSWER- they're probably the only leftists in N America making it a public issue, and getting national press coverage over it (correct me if I'm wrong).

[AvanteRedGarde]

However, your comments about more spontaneity and so on are not really helfpul

Not sure what you mean by this. Seems like the anti-war movement from the beginning was bogged down by protest bureaucracies. A little more room for spontaneity- particularly from the left of the anti-war movement- would have undoubtedly been a good thing.


However we have to hand it to ANSWER- they're probably the only leftists in N America making it a public issue, and getting national press coverage over it (correct me if I'm wrong).

I was thinking something along those lines after I posted earlier. They're not the only group, but they're probably one of the few national groups still making a large issue out of it.

[AvanteRedGarde]

Also, these rallies are, by far, the largest recruitment drives for the Party for Socialism and Liberation. Our membership numbers are exploding, especially in key activist centers...No one organizes and educates better than ANSWER and consistent growth in membership for the Party for Socialism and Liberation shows how successful this is.

Couldn't the RCP have said the same thing around 2004 when they were doing WCW? Moreover, I don't think numbers are the best or only measure of success. Otherwise, wouldn't it be best to tie one's boat to the democratic party or say they best represent to masses?


After only four years of existence the PSL...The PSL split from the Workers World Party. They took with them entire chapters, leading cadre, resources, ANSWER, etc. It's not like the PSL sprung from nothing 4 years ago.

Sorry. I guess I like to play devil's advocate. They do decent work and it would be a good thing if PSL continued to expand.

[Kassad]

Just so everyone knows, ANSWER and the Party for Socialism and Liberation participate in and support strikes across the country. A few that come to mind is the boycott of Dunkin Donuts for its racist attitude, supporting striking teachers in California, striking with the Chicago Windows and Doors workers who occupied their factory and many more.


Couldn't the RCP have said the same thing around 2004 when they were doing WCW? Moreover, I don't think numbers are the best or only measure of success. Otherwise, wouldn't it be best to tie one's boat to the democratic party or say they best represent to masses?

There's a difference between the Democratic Party and a socialist party of the working masses. Sorry, but you can't generalize everything in that manner. Also, World Can't Wait managed to rally a decent group of twelve year-olds. Congratulations. There's a significant role for youth to play, but when an entire rally is comprised of high school underclassmen, you can expect no real ideological advancement to take place. The Revolutionary Communist Party, as you should know, doesn't even tally membership, as it is not a party, it's a fucking newspaper. This isn't even comparing the same general thing. It's like comparing apples to a guitar string.


The PSL split from the Workers World Party. They took with them entire chapters, leading cadre, resources, ANSWER, etc. It's not like the PSL sprung from nothing 4 years ago.

When the PSL split, they divided their current party and had to rebuild a shattered base that was totally non-existent, as they had to name recognition or supporters besides their core of supporters. Workers World could have done everything the PSL did and I'd likely be a member of their party if they had, but they didn't. Now the PSL is making up for lost time.