UK based Comrades - Who would you vote for?

[Pogue]

I know, obviously, as revolutionaries we're opposed to reforism, but just a general question for the fun of it. Which party would/do you vote for in any given election (European Parliament, London Assembly, General Elections).

I've left out the obvious FAIL parties such as Conservatives and BNP because I know the only people voting for them would be fascist/cappie trolls or people trying to be controversial or witty.

I've only included the main left wing parties, because theres a myriad of tiny parties that might only run in one or two regions. You can mention them if I missed them out and you like them.

I've excluded the parties from the occupied North of Ireland because of the illegitimacy of the British state's claim over that land, but if comrades from the north of Ireland want to, they can just type in who they support.

[Pogue]

I voted for the Communist Party of Britain, just because I like Morning Star, I see them on alot of protests and although, obviously, like the rest, they're reformist, they're very oopenly left wing (i.e. are openly reformist, but they talk about a communist society developing and are very pro-working class).

[Pogue]

I forgot one main party, Scottish Socialists, so just 'write in' those guys if you'd vote for them.

[thejambo1]

i voted for the communist party of g.b. just cos they are communist. fuck the rest of them!:) mind you in the real world its a case of VOTE NOBODY!!:D

[Pogue]

Do you mean the CPGB or the CPB? The one thats social democratic, runs under the name Peace & Socialism and is linked to Morning Star is the CPB, the CPGB is some wierd, tiny insignificant nerd outfit which publishes that joke-rag Weekly Worker and is 'supported' and overly-sourced by people like Jacob Richter.

[Sam_b]

If you're calling the SSP a 'main party' up in Scotland, where's Solidarity? Seeing as it got a higher vote in the last Scottish election....

I voted LL anyway.

[Pogue]

If you're calling the SSP a 'main party' up in Scotland, where's Solidarity? Seeing as it got a higher vote in the last Scottish election....

I voted LL anyway.

I don't really know the situation in Scotland with the Socialist groups, I just remember being told the Scottish Socialists won a few seats in the assembly cos of AMS, so assumed they were the biggest one.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Fuck em all

[Pogue]

Fuck em all


But who is the best of the worst?

Say for example, Joe, you had to cast a vote to try and keep the BNP off your council, what one of the list I posted would you vote for? I only intend to vote in order to try and keep out parties I don't like, and when I do that I'll probably go for the Communist Party, but anyone left wing would do. Only Labour if the local MP was Labour Left, for example I liked Ken Livingstone, especially in the London Mayorals.

[brigadista]

not voting for any of them

[Pogue]

i think some people are missing the point, which i explained in my first post...

[ls]

you had to cast a vote to try and keep the BNP off your council, what one of the list I posted would you vote for?

Can't ever see that happening (:P), but it would be the one most likely to keep the BNP out, the one most likely to win.

[thejambo1]

sorry meant communist party of britain:blushing:

[Zurdito]

do we have to be UK based even if we know the Uk well? :(

well i voted anyway. though I did not think so at the time, I would now agree with a campaign of critical support for the Left List, as a way to dialogue with their base, where I would expect to find the most advanced sections of the working class.

[Pogue]

lol anyone who knows the parties can vote, i just assumed only uk based comrades would know about them in enough detail to decide who they liked most, i woldnt be able to say what USA left party i like the most

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

But who is the best of the worst?

Say for example, Joe, you had to cast a vote to try and keep the BNP off your council, what one of the list I posted would you vote for? I only intend to vote in order to try and keep out parties I don't like, and when I do that I'll probably go for the Communist Party, but anyone left wing would do. Only Labour if the local MP was Labour Left, for example I liked Ken Livingstone, especially in the London Mayorals.

Id probably draw a cock on my paper and leave. When you vote politicians see that as a sign as support and theres no way in hell im going to have them see me as supporting them no matter if they give out cheap bus passes or not.

[Pogue]

Id probably draw a cock on my paper and leave. When you vote politicians see that as a sign as support and theres no way in hell im going to have them see me as supporting them no matter if they give out cheap bus passes or not.

tbh if i went to the polling station, i'd make the trip worthwhile and cast a vote for one of the nice, friendly if slightly misguided social democrats like the CPB. I have a very particular fondness for them.

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

tbh if i went to the polling station, i'd make the trip worthwhile and cast a vote for one of the nice, friendly if slightly misguided social democrats like the CPB. I have a very particular fondness for them.

I see where your coming from but i still think sticking your fingers up at the sham "democracy" those posh twats have put in place is the best option.

Also im not allowed to vote.

(On a less serious note get to chat now im so bored im discussing eating kneecaps with mindtoaster)

[Sam_b]

slightly misguided social democrats like the CPB. I have a very particular fondness for them.

Why? Do you agree with Eurocommunism?

[Die Neue Zeit]

the CPGB is some weird, tiny insignificant nerd outfit which publishes that joke-rag Weekly Worker and is 'supported' and overly-sourced by people like Jacob Richter

Yes, because the politico-ideological independence of the working class is a goal that can, after all, be taken for granted. Anything else is ultra-left rubbish - or worse, Kautskyite rubbish - that has to be cast aside in favour of putting "identity politics," Green politics, collective bargainism / "yellow" tred-iunionizm, etc. on at least an equal footing with class issues. :rolleyes:

[welshboy]

I'd vote for shop 'em Sheridan just 'cos it would be lulzy to see an elected politician go to jail for doing his job :D (by which I mean telling porky pies)

[Pogue]

Yes, because the politico-ideological independence of the working class is a goal that can, after all, be taken for granted. Anything else is ultra-left rubbish - or worse, Kautskyite rubbish - that has to be cast aside in favour of putting "identity politics," Green politics, collective bargainism / "yellow" tred-iunionizm, etc. on at least an equal footing with class issues. :rolleyes:

I mean generally, that party is made up of a few wierdos who publish slander about other groups. In the real world, they're insignificant. Do you really think the working class will rally around them?

[Pogue]

Why? Do you agree with Eurocommunism?

Nah, I just have a particular fondness for how they call themselves communists and revolutionaries but have some wierd thesis that revolution is imposible and we need to elect them to Parliament :D

I like Morning Star too, and their policies are good (for a reformist group).

[Pogue]

Yes, because the politico-ideological independence of the working class is a goal that can, after all, be taken for granted. Anything else is ultra-left rubbish - or worse, Kautskyite rubbish - that has to be cast aside in favour of putting "identity politics," Green politics, collective bargainism / "yellow" tred-iunionizm, etc. on at least an equal footing with class issues. :rolleyes:

Your still in your own little world aren't you?

Seriously, just experience the party over here. Its a joke.

[Greenman]

Your still in your own little world aren't you?

Seriously, just experience the party over here. Its a joke.

In the 80s - Miners Strike, AFA etc, they weren't that bad, a bit of a left communist aura about them, but of late (late 90s/00s) they have become increasingly a sectarian joke who could not even achieve unity in their own tiny group let alone with the rest of the left, let alone with the rest of the class! Their shenanigans in the grandly titled (but insignificant) Campaign For A Marxist Party (That even made the SP/CWI Campaign For A New Workers Party look like a broad and plausible campaign;)) were just the latest and most tiresome example.
IMO the CPGB now behave like the worst of the little dogmatic Trotskyist sects, for the most part sans Trotsky!
Still, if you want tittle tattle, gossip, abuse, and light relief, Weekly Worker is your place.

[Zurdito]

In the 80s - Miners Strike, AFA etc, they weren't that bad

Well the CPGB today can't really claim to be the heirs to that CPGB, I would say that falls to the CPB.

[alhop10]

you had to cast a vote to try and keep the BNP off your council, what one of the list I posted would you vote for?


Can't ever see that happening (:P), but it would be the one most likely to keep the BNP out, the one most likely to win.

I voted Left List here but will have to vote Labour in the European election in June to keep the NAZI BNP Nick "Im not a fascist but the Holocaust didnt happen" Griffin from representing liverpool in the European parliament. I would even vote Con..ser.......va........tive.................... phew!! If I had to.

[Die Neue Zeit]

In the 80s - Miners Strike, AFA etc, they weren't that bad, a bit of a left communist aura about them, but of late (late 90s/00s) they have become increasingly a sectarian joke who could not even achieve unity in their own tiny group let alone with the rest of the left, let alone with the rest of the class! Their shenanigans in the grandly titled (but insignificant) Campaign For A Marxist Party (That even made the SP/CWI Campaign For A New Workers Party look like a broad and plausible campaign;)) were just the latest and most tiresome example.
IMO the CPGB now behave like the worst of the little dogmatic Trotskyist sects, for the most part sans Trotsky!
Still, if you want tittle tattle, gossip, abuse, and light relief, Weekly Worker is your place.

Speaking of "unity":

http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/755/upping.html

"But the existing left is in a sorry state. Divided into numerous confessional sects, ever ready to split over secondary issues, painfully weak in organisational terms, afraid of open debate, politically confused or downright useless. The left needs to change urgently if it is to meet the huge challenge life presents us with. Unity is clearly needed. But not unity around left Keynesian charters, halfway house alliances or lowest-common-denominator talking shops."

[Tower of Bebel]

I mean generally, that party is made up of a few wierdos who publish slander about other groups. In the real world, they're insignificant. Do you really think the working class will rally around them?
It's not all identity politics we should care about. I partially ignore their articles focused on the left in Britain and internationally. There's just too much to read and not everything is - of course - right. But, the WW occasionally contains interesting and well written articles about marxist theory, high politics, the history of the workers' movement and workers' struggles. Some of my comrades also criticize the WW for being a paper written by loonatics or "weirdos". The WW is seen as a gossip sheet or a paper full of slander. Therefor it should be ignored. At least it should not be supported.

In my opinion this way of thinking is a product of identity politics, and it further encourages identity politics. Mistakes, wrong interpretations and dislikes are exaggerated or magnified in order to justify the act of ignoring everything else. In the past I ignored most of the left because of this. The working class would bring about the creation of a new mass organization, not the exisitng sectarian revolutionary left. A stupid, rigid distinction to make, but it's something I did.

Btw, the WW has over the past weeks published some forgotten articles of Rosa Luxemburg ;). it would be stupid to ignore these because I don't like some hasty comments about the SPEW.

[Die Neue Zeit]

It's not all identity politics we should care about. I partially ignore their articles focused on the left in Britain and internationally. There's just too much to read and not everything is - of course - right. But, the WW occasionally contains interesting and well written articles about marxist theory, high politics, the history of the workers' movement and workers' struggles. Some of my comrades also criticize the WW for being a paper written by loonatics or "weirdos". The WW is seen as a gossip sheet or a paper full of slander. Therefor it should be ignored. At least it should not be supported.

In my opinion this way of thinking is a product of identity politics, and it further encourages identity politics. Mistakes, wrong interpretations and dislikes are exaggerated or magnified in order to justify the act of ignoring everything else. In the past I ignored most of the left because of this. The working class would bring about the creation of a new mass organization, not the exisitng sectarian revolutionary left. A stupid, rigid distinction to make, but it's something I did.

Btw, the WW has over the past weeks published some forgotten articles of Rosa Luxemburg ;). it would be stupid to ignore these because I don't like some hasty comments about the SPEW.

Comrade, what identity politics are you referring to? Unless I'm mistaken, isn't identity politics the usual liberal stuff about race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.? [The liberal "minimum" stuff you've rejected in discovering the historical minimum programmatic method ;) ]

I too don't pay much attention to their articles on Gaza, other left parties and what not, but they have, by far, the best theoretical articles. :cool:

"Mother of all splits looms" re. the SWP and John Rees? :D ]

[scarletghoul]

I voted CPB, in fact I once contemplated joining them

[Tower of Bebel]

Comrade, what identity politics are you referring to? Unless I'm mistaken, isn't identity politics the usual liberal stuff about race, gender, sexual orientation, etc.? [The liberal "minimum" stuff you've rejected in discovering the historical minimum programmatic method ;) ]

I too don't pay much attention to their articles on Gaza, other left parties and what not, but they have, by far, the best theoretical articles. :cool:

"Mother of all splits looms" re. the SWP and John Rees? :D ]
I thought the word sectarianism would be a bit to extreme for this case of exaggerated criticism. I thought the term "identity politics" sounded better (identity as in: our movement/party/opinion rules, the rest is not worthy of attention; politics as in: reinforce our party/movement, not the working class). Yet even this explanation doesn't intitely fit the comments of H-L-V-S.

[Pogue]

I thought the word sectarianism would be a bit to extreme for this case of exaggerated criticism. I thought the term "identity politics" sounded better (identity as in: our movement/party/opinion rules, the rest is not worthy of attention; politics as in: reinforce our party/movement, not the working class). Yet even this explanation doesn't intitely fit the comments of H-L-V-S.

I just don't see the CPGB as at all relevant. They don't reach out to anyone, no one is going to join them, the working class wont rally behind them, they might as well just be roleplayers for all it matters because they're irrelevant to the working class and class struggle.

[welshboy]

they might as well just be roleplayers for all it matters because they're irrelevant to the working class and class struggle.
I know plenty of role players who are more relevant to the class struggle than them! :D

[bailey_187]

Respect

Although they are not as left as i would like them to be, they are still 'socialists' and have a chance of actually winning where i live

[Pirate turtle the 11th]

Respect

Although they are not as left as i would like them to be, they are still 'socialists' and have a chance of actually winning where i live

Im sorry i dont normally make posts like this out of chit chat but

what the fuck is wrong with the guy in your avatars head?

[bailey_187]

Im sorry i dont normally make posts like this out of chit chat but

what the fuck is wrong with the guy in your avatars head?

lol, not sure fam

(Its Bukharin btw)

[Philosophical Materialist]

From that list, the CPB, being a comrade and all. Though I do disagree with the CPB standing in elections, the BRS, and its attitude towards the Labour Party.

It's really good for Marxist education and has good links with the trade unions (and genuine contact with the working class).

Though I predict in the next three years the CPB will move away from tactical support of Labour.


I just don't see the CPGB as at all relevant. They don't reach out to anyone, no one is going to join them, the working class wont rally behind them, they might as well just be roleplayers for all it matters because they're irrelevant to the working class and class struggle.

I agree with this. The Weekly Worker is at its strongest when its talking about theory and at its weakest when carries ultra-sectarian gossip.

[Pogue]

From that list, the CPB, being a comrade and all. Though I do disagree with the CPB standing in elections, the BRS, and its attitude towards the Labour Party.

It's really good for Marxist education and has good links with the trade unions (and genuine contact with the working class).

Though I predict in the next three years the CPB will move away from tactical support of Labour.



I agree with this. The Weekly Worker is at its strongest when its talking about theory and at its weakest when carries ultra-sectarian gossip.

You disagree with BRS, but isn't that the founding tenent and fundamental ideology of the party? They're openly democratic socialist.

[Philosophical Materialist]

You disagree with BRS, but isn't that the founding tenent and fundamental ideology of the party? They're openly democratic socialist.

It's a proposal for a peaceful transition to state socialism in lieu of a violent revolution. Though I don't think the former can be achieved. I continue to argue my position in branch meetings.

[scarletghoul]

That is cool that you disagree with party policy but are still a member.

I'm thinking of joining the CPB, but not that sure. I disagree with some of their policies also

[Die Neue Zeit]

I agree with this. The Weekly Worker is at its strongest when its talking about theory and at its weakest when carries ultra-sectarian gossip.

Well, to be fair its programmatic criticisms of the CPB are quite valid, comrade. Why is the CPB's current action "program" (http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/751/crisisand.html) little more than a left-Labourite program (to say nothing about what you've said earlier regarding the BRS), when a bunch of "red Tories" are proposing stuff more radical (http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10608), such as state-aided worker cooperative formations (http://www.revleft.com/vb/pre-cooperative-worker-t88629/index.html), or when a bunch of other groups are proposing to replace sales taxes and property taxes with land value taxation (basic Communist Manifesto stuff) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/progress-poverty-and-p1347412/index.html)?

[Sorry for throwing all those links at you, but I thought it necessary. :( ]

[Angry Young Man]

I printed off the introduction to Harpal Brar's Leninism or Trotskyism. It was a vicious personal attack on Trotsky's character as opposed a criticism of Trotskyism; counterposed with a deification of Stalin. I don't know if the book keeps this thread going.

[scarletghoul]

Well, to be fair its programmatic criticisms of the CPB are quite valid, comrade. Why is the CPB's current action "program" (http://www.anonym.to/?http://www.cpgb.org.uk/worker/751/crisisand.html) little more than a left-Labourite program (to say nothing about what you've said earlier regarding the BRS), when a bunch of "red Tories" are proposing stuff more radical (http://www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=10608), such as state-aided worker cooperative formations (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../pre-cooperative-worker-t88629/index.html), or when a bunch of other groups are proposing to replace sales taxes and property taxes with land value taxation (basic Communist Manifesto stuff) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/../progress-poverty-and-p1347412/index.html)?

why dont they oppose these policies from within the CPB (which would give them a chance of changing these policies, and would also be good for the communist movement to have a larger communist party), rather than forming just another pointless tiny communist party that has no relevence to anything?

[The Idler]

I printed off the introduction to Harpal Brar's Leninism or Trotskyism. It was a vicious personal attack on Trotsky's character as opposed a criticism of Trotskyism; counterposed with a deification of Stalin. I don't know if the book keeps this thread going.
You probably already know, but just to make the distinction clear for all - Harpal Brar is a member of CPGB(ML) rather than the CPB or CPGB(PCC).

[Die Neue Zeit]

why dont they oppose these policies from within the CPB (which would give them a chance of changing these policies, and would also be good for the communist movement to have a larger communist party), rather than forming just another pointless tiny communist party that has no relevence to anything?

Effective opposition within the CPB means the right to public criticism (except on questions of class action per se, such as strikes and protests), which the CPGB affords its members. However, what passes today as "democratic centralism" was not the original version practiced by the international proletariat's first vanguard party (http://www.revleft.com/vb/sozialdemokratische-partei-deutschlands-t79754/index.html), but was instead a Zinovievite fossilization that wasn't condemned enough by Lenin the "Kautskyite" and was preserved by Trotskyist and "Marxist-Leninist" circle-sects, as well as by the official Communist Parties.

[Pogue]

Effective opposition within the CPB means the right to public criticism (except on questions of class action per se, such as strikes and protests), which the CPGB affords its members. However, what passes today as "democratic centralism" was not the original version practiced by the international proletariat's first vanguard party (http://www.revleft.com/vb/sozialdemokratische-partei-deutschlands-t79754/index.html), but was instead a Zinovievite fossilization that wasn't condemned enough by Lenin the "Kautskyite" and was preserved by Trotskyist and "Marxist-Leninist" circle-sects, as well as by the official Communist Parties.

Why do you not just speak in normal language? Why? What are you trying to prove by using these words which no one gets, or adding in cheeky little references or jokes that only you understand!?!?!

The world doesn't revolve around Kautsky either!

[Die Neue Zeit]

Care to elaborate which words aren't "normal language"? OK, I admit that "class action" was a bit too far, but "public criticism," "democratic centralism," and "circle-sects" are straightforward.

As for the world not "revolving" around that true founder of "Marxism," your statement is merely a general-strike-ist opposition to the strategy of the center: educate, agitate, and organize to build the worker-class movement and "merge" revolutionary politics with that. You don't do that by saying that revolutionary consciousness can only be attained through action, ultra-activist burnout fetishes, etc.

[Pogue]

Care to elaborate which words aren't "normal language"? OK, I admit that "class action" was a bit too far, but "public criticism," "democratic centralism," and "circle-sects" are straightforward.

As for the world not "revolving" around that true founder of "Marxism," your statement is merely a general-strike-ist opposition to the strategy of the center: educate, agitate, and organize to build the worker-class movement and "merge" revolutionary politics with that. You don't do that by saying that revolutionary consciousness can only be attained through action, ultra-activist burnout fetishes, etc.

I simply don't understand what you're saying. General strike-ist? Why do you make your own language up? Is it to cover up the real lack of substance in what you're saying?

[Die Neue Zeit]

That isn't my own language. Otherwise, I would've said "strikeist" as one word, like the CPC calling Taiwan "splittist." The historical IWW's strategy for "revolution" is one of a prolonged general strike by workers as a whole. However, there are massive logistical problems in this strategy that its proponents fail to address.

[scarletghoul]

A lot of what you say is hard to understand (at least to a normal person). I dont know if its intentional or not, but it's something you should take note of. Most things can be said perfectly well with normal and existing words

[Die Neue Zeit]

I have noted that as a problem with my posts, especially ones that aren't lengthy theoretical expositions (where I'm forced to use ordinary language and cite a lot to use other people's words).

[Bitter Ashes]

I dont know what to say to be honest. I dont vote for the party, I vote for the individual. Currently my vote in the general election is going towards our current MP because he took the time to actualy help me out personaly with a major problem I was having with the NHS and even took it to Westminister to get it sorted. That's how MP's should be acting and I can see why he's kept his seat for 30 years now. He also puts a lot of effort into finding out what the people in his constituancy want and does his best to represent them in parliment (I check up on him on "Theyworkforyou").
So, seeing as though he's a member of the Labour party should I put Labour down on the poll, or not? As I said, I'm not really voting for Labour's policies, I'm voting for this one MP who I like.:)

[The Idler]

I dont know what to say to be honest. I dont vote for the party, I vote for the individual. Currently my vote in the general election is going towards our current MP because he took the time to actualy help me out personaly with a major problem I was having with the NHS and even took it to Westminister to get it sorted. That's how MP's should be acting and I can see why he's kept his seat for 30 years now. He also puts a lot of effort into finding out what the people in his constituancy want and does his best to represent them in parliment (I check up on him on "Theyworkforyou").
So, seeing as though he's a member of the Labour party should I put Labour down on the poll, or not? As I said, I'm not really voting for Labour's policies, I'm voting for this one MP who I like.:)
So basically voting in your own self-interest just as your MP is acting in his own self-interest?

[Forward Union]

Mebyon Kernow

[MikeSC]

I've only included the main left wing parties, because theres a myriad of tiny parties that might only run in one or two regions. You can mention them if I missed them out and you like them.

This is the issue. The Left is completely split in the UK. If it was a vote or BNP situation I would vote LibDem or Green (I like the LibDems for the role they play, but I would never wish to see them get in). Just to play to the odds.

Otherwise, I'll either vote for the SP or the SWP- or I'll be a moral objector to the whole sordid business and no-vote.

Is there anyone considering voting for the Community Action Party? It has councillors in my area. They're "zero tolerance" on crime, though- and it's unlikely that they'd have the opportunity to practice their leftist economic stance.

[Bilan]

Why do you not just speak in normal language? Why? What are you trying to prove by using these words which no one gets, or adding in cheeky little references or jokes that only you understand!?!?!

The world doesn't revolve around Kautsky either!


He's saying the way Democratic Centralism is practiced now a days has been distorted because of the influence of Zinoviev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grigory_Zinoviev), a member of the Bolshevik party, and that the continuation of his distortion of Democratic Centralism was because it did not recieve enough criticism and attention from Lenin and the likes. He is also objecting to the continuation of this distortion of Democratic Centralism by Trotskyists and the like.


As for the world not "revolving" around that true founder of "Marxism," your statement is merely a general-strike-ist opposition to the strategy of the center: educate, agitate, and organize to build the worker-class movement and "merge" revolutionary politics with that. You don't do that by saying that revolutionary consciousness can only be attained through action, ultra-activist burnout fetishes, etc.

I would've thought Marx would have been the true founder of Marxism, as opposed to someone who agreed with him and (arguably) applied Marx's methodology.
Also, your strategy is unrealistic. The rebuilding of the Class Movement, whether through Trade Unionism, or through a body a la the SPD is not realistic.

[RebelDog]

I simply don't understand what you're saying. General strike-ist? Why do you make your own language up? Is it to cover up the real lack of substance in what you're saying?

You don't think the working-class will take to Jacob's indecipherable babble?

[Bilan]

Please, Rebeldog, that isn't necessary.
Let's try and keep this thread one of substance and debate, instead of petty nonsense.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I would've thought Marx would have been the true founder of Marxism, as opposed to someone who agreed with him and (arguably) applied Marx's methodology.

"Marx, himself, wasn't much of an organizer. The growth of Marxism largely belongs to the efforts of Lassalle and Liebknecht and the popularization of Marx's work by Engels. Kautsky, however, was considered the father of Marxism around the turn of the century, because he was the one who brought it all together and systematized Marx's writings." (http://www.revleft.com/vb/kautsky-v-lenin-t67203/index.html?p=1228711)

"It was in the 1890s, when Karl Marx had been safely dead for a decade, that Kautsky and Plekhanov invented ‘Marxism’." (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/smith-cyril/works/millenni/smith4.htm) (Just ignore the part mentioning that poor man's Kautsky known otherwise as Plekhanov ;) )


Also, your strategy is unrealistic. The rebuilding of the Class Movement, whether through Trade Unionism, or through a body a la the SPD is not realistic.

I didn't say that organizing to build the worker-class movement meant cheap tred-iunionizm (more accurately "collective bargainism" in English). Most of the world's labour force, including in the developed world, is non-unionized. On the other hand, why oppose the SPD model?

[disobey]

In terms of voting, really, I'd say none of the above. Besides, voting alone does not a democracy make =)

[Y Chwyldro Comiwnyddol Cymraeg]

Mebyon Kernow


Does that mean "Sons of Cornwall", because is Welsh "Meibion" is sons.


Anyhow I voted CPB, purley because of the ties with the Trade Unions.

[Bilan]

And it tying with the Trade Unions is good, how?
The Labour Party of Australia (the current ruling party) has strong historical, and contemporary ties with the Trade Union movement, and also historically, and now, sells out the working class - and no doubt, the unions have been used against workers too.
So just what is the benefit of that?

[MikeSC]

And it tying with the Trade Unions is good, how?
The Labour Party of Australia (the current ruling party) has strong historical, and contemporary ties with the Trade Union movement, and also historically, and now, sells out the working class - and no doubt, the unions have been used against workers too.
So just what is the benefit of that?

I agree, the British unions have a history of bending over backwards to please the bosses. The unions are just a tool to sterilise those strikes that do happen, and make any strike unsupported by the union bosses illegal.

Of course the unions do admirable work in other areas.

Does anyone in the UK have a preference between the SWP, the SP and RESPECT? I'm in two minds as to whether my vote's going towards a small inefficient socialist party or to a drawing of male-genitalia that I'd supply myself. The second they may misinterpret as a vote for the Tories, though.

[Trystan]

If I were to vote I would vote for an "Old" Labour. Quite simply because they'd be the only party with any chance of winning (which I believe is the point of elections).

[MikeSC]

If I were to vote I would vote for an "Old" Labour. Quite simply because they'd be the only party with any chance of winning (which I believe is the point of elections).

I don't think Labour have a chance- I think the very best we can hope for with Labour is that it'll lose big, and be forced to win back the votes it has taken for granted. There aren't any strong left-wingers in the party anymore- I mean, there's Dennis Skinner and a few backbenchers...

It might just be time to chalk Labour up as a lost cause- there just aren't any Tony Benns left anymore :(

[RedAnarchist]

None of the above - none of those parties truly represent the workers.

[scarletghoul]

Wow, I was also considoring just drawing a cock on the ballot

[Pogue]

None of the above - none of those parties truly represent the workers.

Yeh, obviously, but I did say if you did have to vote, in a hypothetical circumstance where it was neccesary, who would you vote for.

[MikeSC]

Wow, I was also considoring just drawing a cock on the ballot

We mustn't be the only ones- maybe we should start a campaign! Get people to "Vote Cock", in exchange for those "I voted for cock, but all I got was this lousy t-shirt" shirts :D

It'd be a blow to the BNP if a phallus got more votes.

[scarletghoul]

This is a great idea! it would be the ultimate protest vote campaign