Anarchists Against the Wall

[Invincible Summer]

http://awalls.org/about_aatw

There's a speaker coming to my University from a group called "Anarchists Against the Wall" to talk about:



Since 2003 Anarchists Against The Wall has been working to oppose the Israeli apartheid wall being built on Palestinian land through direct action and support of popular nonviolent Palestinian resistance to the wall construction. AATW's aim is to stop the construction and dismantle the parts of the wall which have already been built. AATW has worked with dozens of villages all over the West Bank and participated most recently supporting the struggle in Ni'lin.

Shachaf Polakow, a member of Anarchists Against The Wall, has been working with the popular movement in the West Bank against the occupation, the construction of the wall, and Israeli apartheid policy. Polakow also organizes inside of Israel as part of the movement struggling for the rights of African refugees. During his tour in Vancouver, Polakow will speak on the history of the Israeli occupation, as well as Palestinian and Israeli joint struggle.

For more information on Anarchists Against the Wall see: http://awalls.org/

This fundraising and educational tour will raise money to support the struggle against the Apartheid Wall, specifically legal costs for both Palestinians and Israelis arrested in the course of resistance. The funds are more desperately needed now as a mounting internal assault on dissidents is being waged by Israel. Part of the funds raised will also be directed towards Gaza relief efforts via the Palestinian Refugee Support Network.

On their site though, it doesn't say anything about how Anarchism plays into their actions. I mean, participating in direct action against the Wall and supporting an oppressed group (Palestine) against imperialist oppressors (Israel/USA) is great, but if they're advocating for a Palestinian state, then we all know that that's not Anarchistic at all.

Could someone shed some more light on this group?

[Sprocket Hole]

Well I'm going to see a speech by them on the 24th, I'll ask em :)

[Charles Xavier]

Whats wrong with a Palestinian State?

[Vahanian]

Anarchist dont like the idea state so if they want a Palestinian state that would be well strange

[Charles Xavier]

Please explain how not having a state would make Palestine better equipped to resist imperialism and survive?

[skki]

Please explain how not having a state would make Palestine better equipped to resist imperialism and survive?
Please explain how an Anarchist would go about supporting a state without being a statist.

[Vahanian]

http://awalls.org/contact

seeing as i have no bloody clue:o (maybe someone else does)

maybe you should ask them yourself

[Charles Xavier]

Please explain how an Anarchist would go about supporting a state without being a statist.


Why be against the Palestinian state when the Palestinian state would make things better?

[Vahanian]

Please explain how an Anarchist would go about supporting a state without being a statist.


you cant. that would be like a pacifist joining the ufc

edit: forgot about jeff monson sorry bout the bad example






Why be against the Palestinian state when the Palestinian state would make things better?


it would be stupid to go against a Palestinian state as a Palestinian if it ever happens.

[Charles Xavier]

It goes against my own belief, but it would be stupid to go against a Palestinian state as a Palestinian if it ever happens

That no offense but if your political ideas are taken on faith without scientific understanding of it, then it sounds religious.

[Vahanian]

sorry didnt mean it to sound relgious.

in fact i will edit that now

[Vahanian]

Wait a sec my beliefs are based on scientific understanding. i was just point out the fact that it goes against my belief. i obviously phrased it the wrong way.

[Circle E Society]

I'm seeing this in my area as well. I guess we shall wait and see.

[skki]

Why be against the Palestinian state when the Palestinian state would make things better?
Baseless statements highlighted.

I am so fucking tired of explaining the fundamental fundamentals of Anarchism to clueless Leninists/Stalinists/Maoists. Christ sakes.

Why be against the Palestinian state
against the Palestinian state
the Palestinian state
Palestinian state
state
state
state

Got it yet?

[Invincible Summer]

Please explain how not having a state would make Palestine better equipped to resist imperialism and survive?

By "state," we're talking about the centralization of institutional power and a monopoly of violence within a given territorial space, yes?

Just because Palestine would not have a centralized power in the situation we're debating does not mean the people will have no interest in preserving themselves.

I don't see how having a centralized government would make them any better equipped either, if Israel and their American buddies are going to be right next to them in bed.

[revolution inaction]

Why be against the Palestinian state when the Palestinian state would make things better?
But it wouldn't

[An archist]

Why be against the Palestinian state when the Palestinian state would make things better?
It would make things better for who? For those in power, I'm sure it would make things better yes, but why exactly would a Palestinian state make the lives of ordinary Palestinians? Would it stop the Isreali occupation? Would it stop the bombings?

[Rangi]

Kinda seems like a silly argument this one. An anarchist for the creation of a state - yes this makes not much sense. Israel have a state and it has killed over 1200 Palestinians. If I were a Palestinian I would be all for the creation of a state if it in any way increased the collective Palestinian ability to resist the state of Israel.

A group of organised people will always kick the crap out of a group of disorganised people.

[Hit The North]

Baseless statements highlighted.

I am so fucking tired of explaining the fundamental fundamentals of Anarchism to clueless Leninists/Stalinists/Maoists. Christ sakes.

Why be against the Palestinian state
against the Palestinian state
the Palestinian state
Palestinian state
state
state
state

Got it yet?

Um, no. Could you go over that again?


Originally posted by Rangi
A group of organised people will always kick the crap out of a group of disorganised people.
Word. However, a state isn't the only way of organising one's forces: there are parties, brigades, communes, etc. Part of the problem for the Anarchists model, I think, is the emphasis on extreme democracy and resistance to any form of centralised command structure. Is this the best way of executing war against the enemy?

[Pogue]

Um, no. Could you go over that again?

Word. However, a state isn't the only way of organising one's forces: there are parties, brigades, communes, etc. Part of the problem for the Anarchists model, I think, is the emphasis on extreme democracy and resistance to any form of centralised command structure. Is this the best way of executing war against the enemy?

If you mean specifically in a war situation, Anarchists have shown their willingess throughout history to organise militarily and have met with success. The Anarchists in Spain were the first to mobilise agaisnt the Fascists in Spain, and although they were eventually defeated, they won a number of battles (and of course, they lost because they received no funding and were thus vastly out-gunned, not due to any personal failings). Theres also the Black Army in Ukraine.

In a military situation, every Anarchist I've met has been in favour of having an elected leadership, based upon a federal system, where power comes directly from below and all elected 'leaders' are given the same conditions (pay, food, sleeping quarters, etc) as anyone else. These leaders can be recalled by popular vote in her squadron at any moment, if they feel she was not acting in the way which benefited the cause, the squadron, etc. This method of having electable leaders was used by the militias of the POUM and Anarchists in Spain (where they also voted on any decision effecting the squadron.) This federal system, if it was ever neccesary, could also be used in any administrative situation, such as in the transitionary stage where some sort of centralised body may be neccesary. As long as the checks and balances were in place (such as the aforementioned equal conditions and recall system), I see no reason why this couldn't function on a temoporayr basis, and no reaosn why it contradicts anarchist principles.

[Sasha]

http://awalls.org/about_aatw

There's a speaker coming to my University from a group called "Anarchists Against the Wall" to talk about:



On their site though, it doesn't say anything about how Anarchism plays into their actions. I mean, participating in direct action against the Wall and supporting an oppressed group (Palestine) against imperialist oppressors (Israel/USA) is great, but if they're advocating for a Palestinian state, then we all know that that's not Anarchistic at all.

Could someone shed some more light on this group?

i have met members of this group on several ocasions when they came to holland (speakings, benefits, holidays etc).
they are dedicated anarchists who fight the israeli apartheid state on a whole range of subjects.
In their strugle they organise on a grassroots level together with palestinian locals, israeli/arab/international peace activists and others direct (non-violent) actions against the apartheid wall, war and kolonist expansion/violence.
While some of the groups/people they work with might support the forming of an palestinian nation state, and while some of the actvists on a individual level might do also as an temporarly solution/relief for the palestinian people, AATW as an organisation/group do not as they opose all nation states (and they dont hide this opinion either).

[Yehuda Stern]

Anarchists Against the Wall are, well, just what the name implies - anarchists fighting against the Apartheid wall being build (loosely) around the Green line, splitting villages and lands in the process. However, that's the most that can be said for them. They usually have a very paternalistic and condescending attitude towards Palestinians - they do not try to recruit Palestinians to anarchism, for example. They never challenge the religious or nationalist leaderships.

[Yazman]

Yehuda, thanks for that clarification on the organisation.

In regards to the Palestinian state, I do not agree that it would make things any better for the Palestinian people. The two-state solution is a load of fucking bullshit designed to institutionalise Israeli apartheid.

[griffjam]

you cant. that would be like a pacifist joining the ufc



Jeff Monson is in the UFC

[welshboy]

Jeff Monson is hardly a pacifist mind is he? :D

[Invincible Summer]

Jeff Monson is hardly a pacifist mind is he? :D


Pacifism is the opposition to war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War) or violence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Violence) as a means of settling disputes or gaining advantage. Pacifism covers a spectrum of views ranging from the belief that international disputes can and should be peacefully resolved; to calls for the abolition of the institutions of the military and war; to opposition to any organization of society through governmental force (anarchist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anarchist) or libertarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarian) pacifism); to rejection of the use of physical violence to obtain political, economic or social goals; to the condemnation of force except in cases where it is absolutely necessary to advance the cause of peace; to opposition to violence under any circumstance, including defense of self and others..

Disregarding the very last point (as I don't think many people think that self-defense is wrong), pacifism is basically against violence in order to solve problems or gain power over another.

Jeff Monson is in the UFC as an athlete - he's not fighting to assert dominance in a sort of social hierarchy, but as an athlete in mixed martial arts.

[StalinFanboy]

An Israeli anarchist spoke at a university nearby, but I wasn't able to go.