Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance

[Random Precision]

I recently read this book after my girlfriend gave it to me for Xmas; according to her it's one of the books that captures the way she thinks.

It was definitely an intriguing read, far more so than I expected it to be. I'm not sure that I agree with the author in everything or even anything that he says. For example, he was once talking about how to transcend Western industrial/commercial society and he said something along the lines of "if you don't change your thinking patterns, after you tear down a factory you'll build another factory in its place" (too lazy to look up the quote right now). This seems most like an endorsement of thought reform above activity in the world.

Also, it seems like Pirsig had a very well thought out idea with "Quality" being the mediator of subject and object (am I getting this right?) but I'm not sure what to think his ideas.

What does everyone else think? How do we approach this book from a Marxist perspective?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Thew philosophy it contains is, I'm afraid, bunkum (yet more a priori dogmatics). As a travel book, it is excellent, however.

[Lynx]

For example, he was once talking about how to transcend Western industrial/commercial society and he said something along the lines of "if you don't change your thinking patterns, after you tear down a factory you'll build another factory in its place" (too lazy to look up the quote right now). This seems most like an endorsement of thought reform above activity in the world.
If you don't challenge your assumptions you can end up doing the same things. First rule of therapy, ie. thought reform

[Random Precision]

Thew philosophy it contains is, I'm afraid, bunkum (yet more a priori dogmatics). As a travel book, it is excellent, however.

Care to explain a bit?

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

Well, I read it many years ago, when I was an undergraduate, and even then I found the philosophical passages a joke. I'm afraid I haven't the patience or inclination to dive back into it, so I cannot go into details -- nor do I have the time this week (I am trying to put the finishing touches to the longest essay I have ever written, which is fast approaching 120,000 words, and I have already failed to meet the deadline I set for myself -- i.e., today!).

Unless, of course, you want me to explain what a priori dogmatics is.

Even then that will have to wait until I have finished that essay.

[Random Precision]

Okay, well, whenever you have time then. Has anyone else read it?

[which doctor]

My dad gave me a copy of this book a few years ago. I started reading it, but never really got into it. I never finished, but I would like to give it a go again.

Random Precision,

You described the book as intriguing, but did you also find it enjoyable?

[Random Precision]

You described the book as intriguing, but did you also find it enjoyable?

Yes, I did. The philosophy I have doubts of, but it's very well-written and the author presents his world-view through an account of his previous mental illness, his "treatment" and the conflict between himself (Robert) and his former personality (Phaedrus). It's quite worthy as a work of literature.

However, I posted this in philosophy so we could discuss the philosophy Pirsig presents. Does anyone else have any thoughts about that?

[Hit The North]

It's up there with those other classics, The Teaching of Don Juan and Jonathan Livingstone Seagull - counter-culture hippie bollocks.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

I have to agree with BTB, here!

[Random Precision]

It's up there with those other classics, The Teaching of Don Juan and Jonathan Livingstone Seagull - counter-culture hippie bollocks.

Would you happen to have time to explain this? It was written during the sixties and talks about motorcycles, true, but Pirsig enumerates throughout the book his problems with the hippie culture.

[Hit The North]

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3005/2608002721_2261d6f597.jpg?v=0

[Hit The North]

Would you happen to have time to explain this? It was written during the sixties and talks about motorcycles, true, but Pirsig enumerates throughout the book his problems with the hippie culture.

Which just goes to prove that even hippies have a problem with hippies. :lol:

[Random Precision]

Look, I'm just looking for an explanation of why the philosophy he presents is mistaken, because I'm uneasy about most of the things he says, but due to my lack of knowledge about philosophy I'm not able to pin it down. It doesn't have to be detailed or anything, just the basics. I don't think it would be that hard to do, especially not for Rosa or Bob.

[Hit The North]

Hi, Random Precision. Like Rosa wrote, I don't really have the time or inclination to revisit that particular book. You're going to have to figure it out for yourself :). Nevertheless, the "metaphysics of quality" is, like all metaphysics, open to the attacks mounted by Marx and others. Maybe that critique can be a measure by which you assess Pirsig's ideas. Ask yourself whether the concept of 'quality' isn't just performing the a-priori function the concept of 'God' or 'The Idea' or 'Nature' performs in other metaphysical systems.

[Rosa Lichtenstein]

In fact, Wittgenstein's later work is far more ueseful in showing that metaphysics in general, and not just Pirsig's, is nonsense on stilts.

[Random Precision]

Hi, Random Precision. Like Rosa wrote, I don't really have the time or inclination to revisit that particular book. You're going to have to figure it out for yourself :). Nevertheless, the "metaphysics of quality" is, like all metaphysics, open to the attacks mounted by Marx and others. Maybe that critique can be a measure by which you assess Pirsig's ideas. Ask yourself whether the concept of 'quality' isn't just performing the a-priori function the concept of 'God' or 'The Idea' or 'Nature' performs in other metaphysical systems.

This is the kind of thing I was looking for, I'm sorry for expressing myself poorly. Would you mind pointing me in the general direction of Marx's writings on metaphysics?

[Hit The North]

The Holy Family, particularly the section in chapter 5 called The Mystery of Speculative Construction: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/holy-family/ch05.htm#5.2

The German Ideology, where Marx pays final accounts with the tradition of German idealism: http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1845/german-ideology/index.htm

You might find this article by Kalin useful: http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/120056257/PDFSTART

[Charles Xavier]

Its metaphysics, we all think exploitation shouldn't happen than exploitation won't happen. Which is bs. It will happen because capitalism society relies on it for it to occur. Might as well try and think away walls and try to walk through them.

Our thinking isn't the problem, the class character of society is.