The end of captalism ?

[Davie zepeda]

I see the end coming closer and closer history looks as if it might be repeating itself with fascist rising in Europe and america heading to great depression.
What do you all think? This time will the working class take control of the revolution or will it be a farce? What do you think is coming for the future give your opinion on what might happen or might not on material conditions as well as in the world around us?

[Psy]

It is obvious the previous era of capitalism is drawing to a close. We are reaching a new period of capitalism that will make the stagnation of the 1970's look like the good old days.

[rednordman]

I see the end coming closer and closer history looks as if it might be repeating itself with fascist rising in Europe and america heading to great depression.
What do you all think? This time will the working class take control of the revolution or will it be a farce? What do you think is coming for the future give your opinion on what might happen or might not on material conditions as well as in the world around us?
Its strange times indeed. Whether or not the left can make anything of it remains to be seen. The thing that is beginning to make me wonder is just how when things seem to be getting better, yet another load of tax payers money gets pumped into the economy. And shares completely collapse again. thus equaling many jobs lost in all industries.
I think that the original estimation of how much this is going to cost has actually been surpased by quite a bit (need clarification on that though) already. Is it me, or do alot of the worlds major politicans (obama included) seem to be at odds at the moment as to what is in store in the future? and how exactly to go about fixing something..that mabey cannot even be fixed?

[Davie zepeda]

I think this planned by the big corporate powers they know in amid crisis they can finally take complete power of the capitalist system by nationalizing it and putting the falling structures in there hands. Were heading to corporatism , capitalism is dieing before us As socialist we better help are comrades in other nations who at this time are building socialism. This is a dangerous time this can make or break humanity!

[swirling_vortex]

The elephant in the room is globalization. The problem with having inter-connecting economies is that when one falls down or gets a hiccup, it spreads to other countries as well. Take for instance the US and China. China is dependent on us for their consumption of goods and we're dependent on China for taking in our trade deficits. If the US economy slows and collapses, that hits China just as hard. If the Chinese aren't able to flood the market with cheap goods or stop dealing with our dollars, then we collapse. There's nothing wrong with trade, but it shouldn't be so extreme that you're no longer self-sufficient.

Then of course you have another problem: corporatism. Sure, a free market supporter might argue that corporatism is a spawn of government action instead, but at some point people are going to demand action from the government into the economy. Whether it would be environmental issues, child-labor laws, safety standards, etc., government is going to be serving somebody's interest. If it's not us, then it's the corporations.

Will capitalism die in the US? Not for a long time. It's not like in other countries such as Bolivia where you have a large poor population or in Chile where the exploitation can be clearly seen. In the US, most people aren't simply aware of the issues surrounding capitalism, nor do they even care. (unless it directly affects them) Therefore, if there is change, it's going to come at a very slow pace.

[Psy]

The Elephant in the room is that the US economy has been stagnating longer then the long boom. The ruling class has still not solved the problems of the 1970's they just swept the problem of stagnation under the rug via hyper speculation and hoped no one would notice. The term lost generation (A.K.A generation X) was created as demographers had to acknowledge that workers that started to enter the work work in the 1970's were on average were over educated and underemployed as the term McJobs was coined to describe the explosion of low paying jobs in the USA.

The capitalists class in the USA has a huge powder keg on their hands in that generations of Americans workers put up with decades of a high level of exploitation because they thought a economic boom that would give them good life was just around the corner.

[Pogue]

Its not just going to end, we have to make it end, otherwise it'll just preserve itself in one of its many things, and we'd be stupid to underestimate the lengths the bourgeoisie would go to to preserve themselves.

[redarmyfaction38]

Its not just going to end, we have to make it end, otherwise it'll just preserve itself in one of its many things, and we'd be stupid to underestimate the lengths the bourgeoisie would go to to preserve themselves.
mmm.
yes and no.
globalisation has produced the "international corporate state", a form of fascism, it uses nationalism and racism where it needs it to divide the working class and has done so since the first "imperialist" actions of national capitalists.it has ruled over national govts, it has dictated to bourgeouis political parties their economic and social agendas.
the difference today is that these international capitalist corporations are being forced to concede ground to "national capitalism" in order to preserve the capitalist system itself.
imo, this has left the international capitalists divided and disorientated, their pet spokesman in the uk, gordon brown, has admitted they haven't a clue what to do and are "flying by the seat of their pants".
across europe, western and eastern, resistance is sporadically breaking out.
the capitalist system is breaking down of its own accord, because of its own greed and economic stupidity, all the efforts of national govt. to use our money to subsidise banks etc. actually amount to nothing.
what national govts. are doing with these "bailouts" is promising money based on projected tax revenue to relieve a crisis based on projected earnings, neither of which actually exist in the real world.
the collapse of capitalism, on this basis, can only be postponed not avoided.
we have time comrades, what we need to do, is get our act together, this present crisis is expected to last at least ten years while the markets realign themselves to economic reality.
i think i've wandered or maybe not :D

[skki]

I hate to be such a pessimist, but if this situation really does get as bad as some are predicting; all we will see is a massive rise in pro fascist and ultra-nationalist policies. For whatever reason, dire situations do not make people want to unite and work together for a better world. They make them want to seek a simple solution AKA, someone to blame, whether it be Jews, gays, Muslims (<--- this one) or immigrants.

I can't think of a social or economic situation that would encourage socialism. People don't seem to work like that.

[SocialRealist]

I worry for the future. I see the start of something more dangerous than capitalism on the horizon.

It could be the start of a "Mussolini" styled fascist movement, that does not have anti-semitism in it. This could be very scary indeed for the world, we would be moving from a exploitive capitalist world onto a corporate styled state that has no cares, not even the slightest remorse for its actions.

I hope if this fascist state is among us that the people will reject it.

[Enragé]

The end of capitalism can only be brought about by revolution. However, the present era has all the characteristics of a "either the revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or the common ruin of the contending classes"-situation.

Comrades, its either world revolution in the coming 2 decades (and thats an optimistic time-scale, both regarding chance of revolution as well as if we'll be able to counter the ecological crisis we are facing after 2 more decades of capitalism), or we're all fucked.


I hate to be such a pessimist, but if this situation really does get as bad as some are predicting; all we will see is a massive rise in pro fascist and ultra-nationalist policies. For whatever reason, dire situations do not make people want to unite and work together for a better world. They make them want to seek a simple solution AKA, someone to blame, whether it be Jews, gays, Muslims (<--- this one) or immigrants.

Look at greece, iceland, latvia, estonia - one thing we can probably be sure of is that there's going to be a lot of unrest, a whole wave of protests - things are changing fast, very fast. Whether this turns into a revolutionary wave, is up to revolutionaries all around the world.

Don't be a pessimist, really, it gets you nowhere. Also, there's no reason to be pessimistic: either you wouldnt want to live in the world 30-40 years from now (aside from the very real possibility that we won't be able to) or there's been a revolution. So lets just make sure revolution happens.

"I'm a pessimist by reason, optimist by will"
- Gramsci

[Psy]

The end of capitalism can only be brought about by revolution. However, the present era has all the characteristics of a "either the revolutionary reconstitution of society at large, or the common ruin of the contending classes"-situation.

Comrades, its either world revolution in the coming 2 decades (and thats an optimistic time-scale, both regarding chance of revolution as well as if we'll be able to counter the ecological crisis we are facing after 2 more decades of capitalism), or we're all fucked.

Right now we don't have to worry about the ecological crisis, the collapse in production is solving that problem, capitalism is having a major internal meltdown were the rate of profit is in the negitive for productive capitalists with currently no end in sight, the sudden spike in idle production means less pollution emitted.

Of course that means the capitalist class has to extract even more surplus value out of workers.

[BearBreakingEaglesNeck]

Most likely the Capitalists will Socialize their burdens and keep the profits for themselves. What is interesting however is that either Imperialism or a fundamental part of modern capitalism has to go in order for capitalism to save itself.

[Psy]

Most likely the Capitalists will Socialize their burdens and keep the profits for themselves.

And where would the states get the capital to subsidize the burdens of capitalists? Credit has been greatly over extended world wide, capitalists no longer believe that the economy will grow (thus don't believe there would be extra surplus value in the future to cover credit). More likely we will see the strongest capitalists consolidate their power through buy-outs and mergers.

[swirling_vortex]

And where would the states get the capital to subsidize the burdens of capitalists? Credit has been greatly over extended world wide, capitalists no longer believe that the economy will grow (thus don't believe there would be extra surplus value in the future to cover credit). More likely we will see the strongest capitalists consolidate their power through buy-outs and mergers.
Simple. They'll do what they've done for years: print more money. If the credit's not there, then they'll look towards their corporatist friends in the government to make credit out of thin air. Eventually, we'll end up like Zimbabwe where it takes 20 wheelbarrows of money to buy a loaf of bread.

Ok, so maybe I exaggerated, but I agree that mergers & buy-outs along with the strong possibility of a nationalist state is all very possible at this point.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

[ls]

Simple. They'll do what they've done for years: print more money. If the credit's not there, then they'll look towards their corporatist friends in the government to make credit out of thin air. Eventually, we'll end up like Zimbabwe where it takes 20 wheelbarrows of money to buy a loaf of bread.

Ok, so maybe I exaggerated, but I agree that mergers & buy-outs along with the strong possibility of a nationalist state is all very possible at this point.

"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." - Sinclair Lewis

Exactly, and like with well.. the rest of the world really, as H-L-V-S said:


Its not just going to end, we have to make it end, otherwise it'll just preserve itself in one of its many things, and we'd be stupid to underestimate the lengths the bourgeoisie would go to to preserve themselves.

The recent autoworker strikes were good, but the subsequent American legal crackdown on them has been a hard blow for union solidarity altogether over there. There needs to be a serious gathering of force in genuinely hard-working folks in their and by their unions over there.

[RebelDog]

The end of capitalism will only come with workers strong enough to destroy it and adopted plans with which to replace it with. Right now we have neither. We can't just wish for the end of capitalism, we also need an economic system of our own that negates all the things that make capitalism possible such as the state, wage labour, free-markets etc.

[benhur]

Don't wanna sound pessimistic, but capitalism isn't going away any time soon, because workers today are the ones defending capitalism, ironically enough, and the cappie knows this. He knows he can always count on the worker to be his first line of defense.

[Circle E Society]

I guess like a lot of you we are ushering in a new form of Capitalism that is more than likely going to be more authoritative than the prior.

Along with this though come some hopeful insurrections. I.E. Iceland.

What the fuck we here in the US are doing(by we I mean normal folks) I dont fucking know but its not any real steps in the right direction. This new era is causing families to think about their own when in reality I think its time for folks to realize that communities are a powerful entity for mutual aid as well as change.

[Enragé]

Right now we don't have to worry about the ecological crisis, the collapse in production is solving that problem, capitalism is having a major internal meltdown were the rate of profit is in the negitive for productive capitalists with currently no end in sight, the sudden spike in idle production means less pollution emitted.


The world economy is as of current estimates set to grow still, if only by a half of a percent. Now, even if we'd see a 5 percent shrinking of the world economy, we're still fucked. I don't know about how this effects actual production, but i doesnt seem like a collapse to me.

[Rangi]

I wouldn't hold my breath.

[Enragé]

holding your breath generally is a bad idea, its been known to lead to suffocation and instant death

[Psy]

The world economy is as of current estimates set to grow still, if only by a half of a percent.

That is a very optimistic estimate considering that production is still falling off a cliff.



Now, even if we'd see a 5 percent shrinking of the world economy, we're still fucked. I don't know about how this effects actual production, but i doesnt seem like a collapse to me.
China's is facing major factory closures, stores that serviced these workers are facing sales down by half and these stores are starting to close down too. Factories around the world are closing down or slowing down.

[alhop10]

I hate to be such a pessimist, but if this situation really does get as bad as some are predicting; all we will see is a massive rise in pro fascist and ultra-nationalist policiesHitler said after the rise to power of the NAZI party in Germany that the one thing that could have stopped them was if they were crushed when they were small.

Fascists are opportunists and they will try to take advantage of any crisis of the system but they will only succeed if good ordinary people stand by and let them spread their lies and hatred.

'Freedom of speech' is meaningless. No platform for NAZIs.

[Enragé]

That is a very optimistic estimate considering that production is still falling off a cliff.


China's is facing major factory closures, stores that serviced these workers are facing sales down by half and these stores are starting to close down too. Factories around the world are closing down or slowing down.

got any statistics on that? I know that production is slowing down, diminishing to some extent, i can see it happening everywhere, but exactly how much is it diminishing? It's difficult to get a bearing on that.

edit: damn! postcount = 3300! i've been on this site way too fucking long (:

[Psy]

got any statistics on that? I know that production is slowing down, diminishing to some extent, i can see it happening everywhere, but exactly how much is it diminishing? It's difficult to get a bearing on that.

edit: damn! postcount = 3300! i've been on this site way too fucking long (:

US and global manufacturing collapsing (http://www.wsws.org/articles/2009/jan2009/manu-j03.shtml)