OIers, please, beffore posting

[Comrade B]

Please, before you post on this board recognize, we have heard a billion of those stupid "communism will never work because of human nature" arguments with out any attached support. Please, don't waste our time with the crap. Before you say post, check your message, ask yourself, "Would an argument of this style change a single thought in my mind" for example, if I were to go up to you, say "Capitalism is a bad thing for humanity" and then not elaborate, you would be more likely to just think that I am an idiot, rather than change a single thought in your mind.

So please, don't be fucking stupid, the reason we ban you isn't because you found some genius argument and we need to cover it up, it is because you are just stupid, and we could get a more intellectual argument from the Myspace.com political forums or writing on the sides of urinal dividers.

You are here to discuss issues with us, please, go ahead, but if you just want to generalize, please, go away.

Love,
Comrade ***** B**** ***** *******-********

[Bud Struggle]

How about you showing us how Communism WILL work because of human nature. You've had 100+ years of Communism or at leasr Communist attempts.

All I seem to see are things like these:

http://www.phillyimc.org/en/maoist-leadership-nepal-bans-strikes


...Faced with the unrest, Maoist Party leader and Nepalese Prime Minister Prachanda proposed to fellow politicians a ban on all public sector strikes, to which the seven major parties all agreed....

Just more of the same Authoritarian Maoism, Stalinism, Fidelism, etc. that we have come to know and love from Communism regimes.

Now I do agree that in theory everyone working together toward the common good seems to work just fine--it is the most logical way for us all to proceed. But the human creature isn't that logical, even with all the best efforts of propaganda and education. There's an innate immediate selfishness in mankind that seems ruld the day. We can be patriotic to an extent, and even neighborly, but those sentiments are more conditioned than innate it seems to me.

I'd just like to see examples and explaination of how we could all come togeth as a brotherhood of man. And as I said I applaud the idea.

[danyboy27]

Please, before you post on this board recognize, we have heard a billion of those stupid "communism will never work because of human nature" arguments with out any attached support. Please, don't waste our time with the crap. Before you say post, check your message, ask yourself, "Would an argument of this style change a single thought in my mind" for example, if I were to go up to you, say "Capitalism is a bad thing for humanity" and then not elaborate, you would be more likely to just think that I am an idiot, rather than change a single thought in your mind.

So please, don't be fucking stupid, the reason we ban you isn't because you found some genius argument and we need to cover it up, it is because you are just stupid, and we could get a more intellectual argument from the Myspace.com political forums or writing on the sides of urinal dividers.

You are here to discuss issues with us, please, go ahead, but if you just want to generalize, please, go away.

Love,
Comrade ***** B**** ***** *******-********

tanks for showing me how i should think and process informations in my brain :rolleyes:
seriously fuck off, jazratt is the moderator around here, if somebody screw thing up, he gonna get banned, and if somebody do a stupid topic, he gonna get attascked by a bunch of hardcore commie anyway, if jazzratt hate a topic, the will trash it, you wont tell me how i should do thing around here, jazratt will, so fuck off.

[Robert]

if you just want to generalize, please, go away.

Something about a pot and a kettle comes to mind ....

Tom, at least they still have more than one political party in Nepal. For now.:lol:

[ZeroNowhere]

How about you showing us how Communism WILL work because of human nature.
Under communism, people would be able to eat, sleep and drink. Happy?

[revolution inaction]

How about you showing us how Communism WILL work because of human nature. You've had 100+ years of Communism or at leasr Communist attempts.


Book about cooperation in nature, including humans

http://libcom.org/library/mutual-aid-peter-kropotkin



All I seem to see are things like these:

http://www.phillyimc.org/en/maoist-leadership-nepal-bans-strikes


...Faced with the unrest, Maoist Party leader and Nepalese Prime Minister Prachanda proposed to fellow politicians a ban on all public sector strikes, to which the seven major parties all agreed....


thats cause its the only stuff your willing to look at. Maoism has nothing to do with communism anyway.

[trivas7]

Now I do agree that in theory everyone working together toward the common good seems to work just fine--it is the most logical way for us all to proceed. But the human creature isn't that logical, even with all the best efforts of propaganda and education. There's an innate immediate selfishness in mankind that seems ruld the day. We can be patriotic to an extent, and even neighborly, but those sentiments are more conditioned than innate it seems to me.

OT, but personally I don't believe such a thing as "the common good" exists. It is a holdover from our medieval past meant to reinforce a morality of altruism taught by theologians, akin to such ideas as "the social body", an idea very much expropriated by socialists. It's just an abstraction; there is no entity "society", neither does it have a will. The good is always a value of and for individuals.

[ZeroNowhere]

Now I do agree that in theory everyone working together toward the common good seems to work just fine--it is the most logical way for us all to proceed. But the human creature isn't that logical, even with all the best efforts of propaganda and education. There's an innate immediate selfishness in mankind that seems ruld the day. We can be patriotic to an extent, and even neighborly, but those sentiments are more conditioned than innate it seems to me.
Um, I think your statement should be, "some humans are logical, despite the best efforts of propaganda and 'education'." Just saying.

[RGacky3]

I really have to agree here with Comrade B, the same things have to be explained over and over and over again here, people still bring up things like the USSR even though the vast majority of us never did nor will ever support that psudo-socialism. New posters should read the FAQ, however a lot of the same things come from long time posters, that simply ignore past explinations. Many OIers are still arguing the US against the USSR, WHO ARE YOU ARGUING WITH???


...Faced with the unrest, Maoist Party leader and Nepalese Prime Minister Prachanda proposed to fellow politicians a ban on all public sector strikes, to which the seven major parties all agreed....

Just more of the same Authoritarian Maoism, Stalinism, Fidelism, etc. that we have come to know and love from Communism regimes.


Heres my point, Tomk, why not try and attack an organization people here support, such as the IWW, CNT, the Zapatistas, latin American collectives, and so on and so forth, instead of bringing up stuff that really does'nt matter.


But the human creature isn't that logical, even with all the best efforts of propaganda and education. There's an innate immediate selfishness in mankind that seems ruld the day. We can be patriotic to an extent, and even neighborly, but those sentiments are more conditioned than innate it seems to me.

This has been explained to you time and time again, and every time you've ignored it.


tanks for showing me how i should think and process informations in my brain :rolleyes:
seriously fuck off, jazratt is the moderator around here, if somebody screw thing up, he gonna get banned, and if somebody do a stupid topic, he gonna get attascked by a bunch of hardcore commie anyway, if jazzratt hate a topic, the will trash it, you wont tell me how i should do thing around here, jazratt will, so fuck off.

He's just trying to encourage intelligent discussion here.


OT, but personally I don't believe such a thing as "the common good" exists. It is a holdover from our medieval past meant to reinforce a morality of altruism taught by theologians, akin to such ideas as "the social body", an idea very much expropriated by socialists. It's just an abstraction; there is no entity "society", neither does it have a will. The good is always a value of and for individuals.

Trivas7 is the Capitalist version of Sky, for those who remember him, speaking in manifesto format ignoring everyone else.

[danyboy27]

I really have to agree here with Comrade B, the same things have to be explained over and over and over again here, people still bring up things like the USSR even though the vast majority of us never did nor will ever support that psudo-socialism. New posters should read the FAQ, however a lot of the same things come from long time posters, that simply ignore past explinations. Many OIers are still arguing the US against the USSR, WHO ARE YOU ARGUING WITH???


there is no need to start a topic to indicate us that the FAQ exist, i think peoples are intelligent enough to know its there, if the revleft administrative board(the CC) feel that there is too much assoles making useless topic or making generalization, they will take the appropriate measures, like making a topic saying us that we should read the FAQ.
comrade b have no authority over this section of the forum, he should have talked to jazzratt or the CC, but he decided to play this alone, to telling us what to do here and what not to do, that where the problem is.

[RGacky3]

comrade b have no authority over this section of the forum, he should have talked to jazzratt or the CC, but he decided to play this alone, to telling us what to do here and what not to do, that where the problem is.

He, and everyone else, has the authority to start a topic trying to stop the lowering of discussion here.

[danyboy27]

He, and everyone else, has the authority to start a topic trying to stop the lowering of discussion here.

no they dont, some member of the CC already warned full membr to not flame us, and if they had a problem they should report them instead of playing the hero.

that what i would do, cc job is to regulate, not mine, not your not Comrade B.

[Jazzratt]

spetnaz - I am not going to trash this thread.

Although we already have some "read this first" and "stop making fucking stupid arguments" threads, I can see the utility of reiterating it every so often, also before you started having a go at the thread in this post I could see some decent argument developing.

[Pogue]

Under communism, people would be able to eat, sleep and drink. Happy?

ye but wed have to sharw a bed !!!!!111

[danyboy27]

spetnaz - I am not going to trash this thread.

Although we already have some "read this first" and "stop making fucking stupid arguments" threads, I can see the utility of reiterating it every so often, also before you started having a go at the thread in this post I could see some decent argument developing.

if you endorse this topic, then i dont see any reason to argue.
tanks you jazzratt.

i still think comrade b could have warned you before of doing something.

[ls]

..but those sentiments are more conditioned than innate it seems to me.

If you teach people good stuff they retain it, yes, as you say. Therefore you basically agree.


I'd just like to see examples and explaination of how we could all come togeth as a brotherhood of man. And as I said I applaud the idea.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/revolutionary-left-39-t22627/index.html
Makhno, Nestor
“The agricultural most part of these villages was composed of peasants, someone understood at the same time peasants and workers. They were founded first of all on equality and solidarity of his members. All, men and women, worked together with a perfect conscience that they should work on fields or that they should be used in housework... Working program was established in meetings where all participated. They knew then exactly what they had to make.”

(October 27, 1889 – July 25, 1934) Nestor Ivanovich Makhno was an anarcho-communist Ukrainian revolutionary who refused to align with the Bolsheviks after the October Revolution. He helped to organize an enormous experiment in anarchist values and practice, one which was cut short by the consolidation of Bolshevik power. In early 1918, the new Bolshevik government in Russia signed the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk making peace with the Central Powers, but ceding large amounts of territory to them, including Ukraine. The people living in Ukraine did not want to be ruled by the Central Powers, and so rebelled. Partisan units were formed that waged guerilla war against the Germans and Austrians. This rebellion turned into an anarchist revolution. Nestor Makhno was one of the main organizers of these partisan groups, who united into the Revolutionary Insurrectionary Army of Ukraine (RIAU), also called the Black Army (because they fought under the anarchist black flag), "Makhnovists" or "Makhnovshchina" (i.e., "Makhnovism"). The RIAU also battled against the Whites (counter-revolutionaries) and anti-semitic pogromists. In areas where the RIAU drove out opposing armies, villagers sought to abolish capitalism and the state through organizing themselves into village assemblies, communes and free councils. The land and factories were expropriated and self-management implemented. New relationships and values were generated by this new social paradigm, which lead Makhnovists to formalize the policy of free communities as the highest form of social justice. Education was organised on Francisco Ferrer's principles, and the economy was based upon free exchange between rural and urban communities, from crop and cattle to manufactured products, according to the theories of Kropotkin.
Makhno had resisted the White Army's attempts to invade Ukraine from the South-West for three months before the Bolshevik Red Army units joined the war effort of Makhnovshchina. But even after joining forces with the Red Army, the anarchists maintained their main political structures (self-management, elections, voluntarism) and refused to accept Bolshevik-appointed political commissars. The Red Army temporarly accepted these conditions, but soon Bolsheviks ceased to provide the Makhnovists with basic supplies, such as cereals and coal.
There was a new truce between Makhno forces and the Red Army in October 1920 when both forces came close to the territories held by Wrangel's White army. Makhnovshchina still agreed to help the Red Army, but when the Whites were decisively eliminated in the Crimea, the communists turned on Makhno again. Makhno intercepted three messages from Lenin to Christian Rakovsky, the head of the Bolshevik government of Ukraine. Lenin's orders were to arrest all anarchist activists and to try them as common criminals.
In August 1923, an exhausted Makhno was finally driven by the Bolsheviks into exile, fleeing to Romania; then Poland; and finally to Paris. Makhno died in exile in 1934, vindicated in his suspicion of the Bolsheviks by the show trials and purges that were very much on the rise. He was cremated three days after his death, with five hundred people attending his funeral at the famous cimetière du Père-Lachaise in Paris.

http://www.nestormakhno.info (http://www.nestormakhno.info/)

[Circle E Society]

ye but wed have to sharw a bed !!!!!111
and 1 pillow too!:crying:

[Bud Struggle]

thats cause its the only stuff your willing to look at. Maoism has nothing to do with communism anyway.

Well, Ok.:confused: (Good link. Thanks.)


Um, I think your statement should be, "some humans are logical, despite the best efforts of propaganda and 'education'." Just saying. I can live with that.




Heres my point, Tomk, why not try and attack an organization people here support, such as the IWW, CNT, the Zapatistas, latin American collectives, and so on and so forth, instead of bringing up stuff that really does'nt matter.

Interesting point here--Communism "claims" to play on a world stage. The World wide Revolution and all that, yet when Communism does achieve an even modicum of success, for reasons left to other discussions it turns bad--Nepal, even though a minor country is atleast a national presence. BUT when looking for what Communism is realling to look like it always goes to a few Mexicans hiding in the forests or some frat boy Union that really calls "Industrial" but doesn't actually represent any real life industrial workers in any real bargening power sense, or some good old day rememberences from Paris or the plains of Spain. Nice and all of that--but definitely small potatoes to what what other Communists have done.

[Killfacer]

Please, before you post on this board recognize, we have heard a billion of those stupid "communism will never work because of human nature" arguments with out any attached support. Please, don't waste our time with the crap. Before you say post, check your message, ask yourself, "Would an argument of this style change a single thought in my mind" for example, if I were to go up to you, say "Capitalism is a bad thing for humanity" and then not elaborate, you would be more likely to just think that I am an idiot, rather than change a single thought in your mind.

So please, don't be fucking stupid, the reason we ban you isn't because you found some genius argument and we need to cover it up, it is because you are just stupid, and we could get a more intellectual argument from the Myspace.com political forums or writing on the sides of urinal dividers.

You are here to discuss issues with us, please, go ahead, but if you just want to generalize, please, go away.

Love,
Comrade ***** B**** ***** *******-********

This is why OI is dying. Leave them be!

[Lynx]

Where's Pusher Robot?

[Bright Banana Beard]

Where's Pusher Robot?
and that self-proclaim rational market anarchist Baconator? I am starting to miss them both. They stand out along the OI, the rest sucks ass.

[danyboy27]

and that self-proclaim rational market anarchist Baconator? I am starting to miss them both. They stand out along the OI, the rest sucks ass.

fuck you

[Pirate Utopian]

and that self-proclaim rational market anarchist Baconator? I am starting to miss them both. They stand out along the OI, the rest sucks ass.
Especially Spetnaz21.

[Comrade B]

Meant this not directed to those that are regular posters, because they usually post intelligent topics, or at least things that have an issue to be discussed, but the new posters that come on here and just say stupid crap and expect a result tire me. I wrote this after opening yet another of the stupid human nature posts which seem to appear every day and be trashed every day.

[casper]

no they dont, some member of the CC already warned full membr to not flame us, and if they had a problem they should report them instead of playing the hero.

that what i would do, cc job is to regulate, not mine, not your not Comrade B.
ah... established order of things much?
let loose.

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

and that self-proclaim rational market anarchist Baconator? I am starting to miss them both. They stand out along the OI, the rest sucks ass.

Yeah fuck you dude.

I admit Pusher is probably one of the smarter, sharper minds on here, but with that said he's probably one of the better thinkers on the board. I don't care about myself, but to say Gacky sucks ass is fucked up.

[danyboy27]

Yeah fuck you dude.

I admit Pusher is probably one of the smarter, sharper minds on here, but with that said he's probably one of the better thinkers on the board. I don't care about myself, but to say Gacky sucks ass is fucked up.

yea, unrestrict him!

[TheCultofAbeLincoln]

yeah, he is much too intelligent to be down here!

[Bud Struggle]

Yeah fuck you dude.

I admit Pusher is probably one of the smarter, sharper minds on here, but with that said he's probably one of the better thinkers on the board. I don't care about myself, but to say Gacky sucks ass is fucked up.


No doubt. RGacky argues the Commie cause better than any Commie on the board (except Plague--he's good too.)

Also, even with all the posters up on the "Big Board" most of the thinking is pretty solid one sided questions and learning Lots of little pettyassed fights but it's more informational than anything else. Which is OK.

Actually, I wouldn't mind being able to post up there on occasion--I'm kind of interested in Anarchism--I'd promise not to "debate" just as questions and such.

Oh, well.

[danyboy27]

No doubt. RGacky argues the Commie cause better than any Commie on the board (except Plague--he's good too.)

Also, even with all the posters up on the "Big Board" most of the thinking is pretty solid one sided questions and learning Lots of little pettyassed fights but it's more informational than anything else. Which is OK.

Actually, I wouldn't mind being able to post up there on occasion--I'm kind of interested in Anarchism--I'd promise not to "debate" just as questions and such.

Oh, well.

perhaps a question only section could be created inside the learning section.

[Bright Banana Beard]

Yeah fuck you dude.

I admit Pusher is probably one of the smarter, sharper minds on here, but with that said he's probably one of the better thinkers on the board. I don't care about myself, but to say Gacky sucks ass is fucked up.
Damn it, I forgot about Gacky, I said OI instead of supposed reformist.

[RGacky3]

BUT when looking for what Communism is realling to look like it always goes to a few Mexicans hiding in the forests or some frat boy Union that really calls "Industrial" but doesn't actually represent any real life industrial workers in any real bargening power sense, or some good old day rememberences from Paris or the plains of Spain. Nice and all of that--but definitely small potatoes to what what other Communists have done.

A few Mexicans hiding in the forest is about half of Chiapas, and is significant, to the indigenous people there, also I would'nt consider Oaxaca to be a few Mexicans hiding in the forest. in the IWWs hay day they were a real threat to the American Capitalist system, which cannot be ignored.

Heres the thing, these other so-called "communists" that you talk about, are not, never were, supported by the real communists, the anarchist/libertarian communists, so whether or not you think they are more significant is irrelivent, your fighting against the wind, thats not what we are fighting for.

Also the fact that what we want has'nt become wide spread yet, does'nt make it irrelivent, we are fighting for it, there are also other examples that we have brought up in the past.

Communists don't claim to work on the "world stage", we are (mostly) internationalists in the sense that we are not nationalists, we are out to liberate any and all workers no matter where they are from, so if thasts some Mexican peasents so be it, if its Argentinian factory workers, good, if its African shack dwellers, wonderful, if its American Immigrants, great. Thats what we mean by saying we are internationalists.


Communism does achieve an even modicum of success, for reasons left to other discussions it turns bad--Nepal, even though a minor country is atleast a national presence.

If its not under direct control of the workers nad the people, its not communism, period. If its a party or a group of people taking control its a quasi-socialist coup, not a communist revolution. Thats my opinion at least, so those turning bad is'nt supprising or relevant to our cause.


yeah, he is much to intelligent to be down here!

I'm pro-life, that (according to the CC), is an opposing ideology, I doubt it has anything to do with whether or not I'm smart or whatever, I don't agree with the rule, but a rules a rule.

That being said, I do appreciate the OIers, (the real OIers), that bring up good points and challenge communist thinkings, it sharpens the mind.

[Comrade B]

I'm pro-life, that (according to the CC), is an opposing ideology, I doubt it has anything to do with whether or not I'm smart or whatever, I don't agree with the rule, but a rules a rule.
I am pro-Choice, but totally think that this is not an issue that at all prevents someone from being a communist, hope they let you guys back in to the normal forum some time. Always disagreed with that rule.

[Hiero]

How about you showing us how Communism WILL work because of human nature. You've had 100+ years of Communism or at leasr Communist attempts.

All I seem to see are things like these:

http://www.phillyimc.org/en/maoist-leadership-nepal-bans-strikes


...Faced with the unrest, Maoist Party leader and Nepalese Prime Minister Prachanda proposed to fellow politicians a ban on all public sector strikes, to which the seven major parties all agreed....

Just more of the same Authoritarian Maoism, Stalinism, Fidelism, etc. that we have come to know and love from Communism regimes.

Now I do agree that in theory everyone working together toward the common good seems to work just fine--it is the most logical way for us all to proceed. But the human creature isn't that logical, even with all the best efforts of propaganda and education. There's an innate immediate selfishness in mankind that seems ruld the day. We can be patriotic to an extent, and even neighborly, but those sentiments are more conditioned than innate it seems to me.

I'd just like to see examples and explaination of how we could all come togeth as a brotherhood of man. And as I said I applaud the idea.
I think your biggest problem is trying to under stand Communism through an american political discourse. That is why alot of non and anti communists when talking about Commmunism talk about the "theory" of everybody working together. Where is if you talk to a communist they will talk about the theory of class warfare as the driving force of change in history.

You do not understand scientific socialism, therefore you do not understand socialist societies and what are real benifits are for humanity. What you constantly try to do is draw an understanding of Communism from an American political standpoint, on notions such as liberty, human nature, individualism and such. If you every want to understand Communist theory you need to for the moment try to start afresh without such notions as a benchmark to judge other theory.


I am pro-Choice, but totally think that this is not an issue that at all prevents someone from being a communist, hope they let you guys back in to the normal forum some time. Always disagreed with that rule.

Why? Man abortion is so simple. If you are a so called communist, that is having an understanding of historical materialism then abortion is a simple issue. If you can't understand why abortion is a simple issue then you probally have never understood any theoretical Communism. Taking on a communist perspective means challenging everything basically, considering capialist ideology flows through society in many unconscious and at times very conscious forms and if you can challenge such firm beliefs that are present in society it makes no sense why someone couldn't be 100% for woman's choice over their bodily functions. The reality is that by that simple flaw in logic they are probally not a Communist after all, just a militant "workerist".

[Comrade B]

Why? Man abortion is so simple. If you are a so called communist, that is having an understanding of historical materialism then abortion is a simple issue. If you can't understand why abortion is a simple issue then you probally have never understood any theoretical Communism. Taking on a communist perspective means challenging everything basically, considering capialist ideology flows through society in many unconscious and at times very conscious forms and if you can challenge such firm beliefs that are present in society it makes no sense why someone couldn't be 100% for woman's choice over their bodily functions. The reality is that by that simple flaw in logic they are probally not a Communist after all, just a militant "workerist".
It becomes an issue of what people think is human, I may think the opposition is ridiculously wrong, however if I were to believe that a fetus were a person, I could understand the perspective.