How to counter intellectual fascists?

[Dimentio]

I am specifically referring to the French "New Right" which recently has cloned itself and sprung up in other countries in Europe. Its a form of fascism which has borrowed the tactics and analysis methods from the 1968-New Left, and are conducting "Identity Politics" for white heterosexual native males in Europe, basically.

Their thesis is that modern society is alienating people from their "organic, natural communities", and that a "new class" which basically consists of lawyers, social workers, reporters, teachers and bureaucrats have been amalgamed from "political correctness".

What I am mostly worried about is their argumentation about a "sense of identity".

Their chief theoretician is a Frenchman named Guillaume Faye.

[Holden Caulfield]

With words...
Seriously though I don't know about this french 'new right' but if it is anything like the British 'new-right' of the BNP it shouldn't be much of a task to rip their stuff to shits...

If you wanna give me a better example I'll see how it would be countered

[An archist]

I think you're talking about groups like Jeunesses Identitaires and Nation? The problem is that they copy a lot of leftwing rhetoric, some even claim they are socialists, but non-marxist socialists and by all means they deny that they are fascists, instead they give it a new name, like the N-SA, (the Nieuw Solidaristisch Alternatief, from Belgium).
Some of these groups talk praisingly about the recent revolt in Greece. They can be pretty confusing, but that's because most of them are confused themselves. The N-SA claim they are revolutionary conservatives. When you start asking more about what they mean by that, they get confused: they say they want to destroy the system (wich is why they think for example the revolt in Greece is great), but then again they are conservatives who think revolutionary methods are needed to preserve the current system.
So basically, they make no sense, but they make it seem as if they know what they're talking about.

[Rjevan]

Intellectual fascists? This is something new. ;)
No, seriously, I agree with An archist, they don't really know that they want and it should be easy to rebute them. I don't know this "New Right" in French, too, but if they are like the Nazbols in Russia they disagree among themselves: sometimes they praise the "great achievements" of the Nazis but the next moment they praise Stalin for defeating fascism. They say that they are no fascist and everyone is welcome to Russia only to shout the next moment "Russia for the Russians!" Some of their members are communists, some are nazis and their programm is, mildly spoken, full of contrasts.
So try to ask them about their ideology and soon they will not even know their name anymore.

[BPSocialist]

Ultimately this question is an oxymoron. When it boils down to what they believe in, no fascist is intellectual. Some are crafty, yes, but not intellectual.

When it comes to dealing with anyone who's crafty, you can either try to beat them at their own dirty, underhand tactics, or just ignore them. Personally, i'd try the first.

N.B. This is a reall post and NOT trolling!!! Just to deal with any confusion.

[bcbm]

I think it is a terrible and dangerous idea to say that there are no fascist intellectuals and that they are simply confused. Many of these people have put just as much thought into their ideas as we have and can effectively argue their position. They are in many ways more dangerous than the knuckle-dragging violent thugs associated with far-right thought. Like it or not, ideas of race and national culture are common among our class and can be played to just as easily as class aspects, if not more so given their dominance in mainstream thought. We need to be effective in countering these arguments intelligently and not just dismissing or fighting them.

[BPSocialist]

Ok, but when I said some fascists were intellectual and had to be pacified in a different thread, I got no end of flaming, which ultimately ended in the thread beiong trashed and me backing down on the argument, and accepting the other people's views. Just thought you ought to Know before condeming me:)

[bcbm]

I didn't see that thread and have no intention of condemning anybody, just arguing that I think assuming our enemies to all be idiots is a dangerous position that is far too common on the modern left. I believe fully in confronting them wherever they rear their ugly heads but we must also be able to defeat them in the minds of our class when we're both pulling for the same people.

[BPSocialist]

To be fair I did say that they were crafty. In other respects (such as their belief in their political ideology) they are unintelligent. But now I see what you mean. Thank you for your opinion.

[Holden Caulfield]

I wrote out a long reply and then deleted it by mistake....:cursing:

Maybe ill re-reply in time...

[BPSocialist]

That's alright comrade.

[Rjevan]

I think it is a terrible and dangerous idea to say that there are no fascist intellectuals and that they are simply confused.
The fascists I know just lash about with strange half-truth arguments and bad demagogy which are/is easy to rebute. The "confused ones" are the neo-fascist "Third Positioners", which his "New Right" seems to be part of, who claim to be "beyond left and right". They don't really know that they want.

[Raúl Duke]

I think you're talking about groups like Jeunesses Identitaires and Nation? The problem is that they copy a lot of leftwing rhetoric, some even claim they are socialists, but non-marxist socialists and by all means they deny that they are fascists, instead they give it a new name, like the N-SA, (the Nieuw Solidaristisch Alternatief, from Belgium).
Some of these groups talk praisingly about the recent revolt in Greece. They can be pretty confusing, but that's because most of them are confused themselves. The N-SA claim they are revolutionary conservatives. When you start asking more about what they mean by that, they get confused: they say they want to destroy the system (wich is why they think for example the revolt in Greece is great), but then again they are conservatives who think revolutionary methods are needed to preserve the current system.
So basically, they make no sense, but they make it seem as if they know what they're talking about.

To me it sounds like they have a contradictory ideology.
Their weakness in debate are these contradictions and you can always point them out.

[rednordman]

Is it me or is this just a case of double standards for the controversial right. What i mean is that people are not aloud to openly be communists anymore and get heard/taken seriously in public perception (not that we are wrong, just that it is increasing become more and more politically incorrect to bring up marxist rhetoric-its almost like people dont want to hear it, whether true or not), but if they change their game and say something a little bit pretentious/raunchy, then people stop and take notice-even if its bull.
Like Jonnydarko said above, they are indeed contradictory. Plus there is no such thing as a revolutionary conservative. I also doubt that they are fascists either, just misguided.
In all honesty, it doesnt suprise me if alot of former communists in France have taken this route, probably because they believe that they will get heard again (mabey its a way of finding out whom was genuine back in the day-marxists, and who wasnt and only in it because they thought it was cool-this new right)

[Melbourne Lefty]

I think it is a terrible and dangerous idea to say that there are no fascist intellectuals and that they are simply confused. Many of these people have put just as much thought into their ideas as we have and can effectively argue their position. They are in many ways more dangerous than the knuckle-dragging violent thugs associated with far-right thought. Like it or not, ideas of race and national culture are common among our class and can be played to just as easily as class aspects, if not more so given their dominance in mainstream thought. We need to be effective in countering these arguments intelligently and not just dismissing or fighting them.

Amen.

Assuming the other side are idiots simply because they disagree with you is stupidity of the highest order.

The French New right and other groups only seem contradictory to us because we see matters in terms of Class as the only real way of analysing the world around us.

They see class, tribe, culture, nation and a host of other factors. And they consider tribe [read "race"] as the most important of the ways human behavior is ordered.

They also see the current system as corrupt and believe that by creating a world in which capital and profit are replaced by tribal identity as the main focus of society the problems of the current system can be solved.

I hope I am not alone in saying we disagree.

Saying that your experiences with your average brainless member of your local post-fascist/right populist party means that all fascists are brainless is like saying that talking to a stoned as hell hippy at a peace march means all left wingers are constantly stoned.

They have a different view of the world entirely, which Is why they look absurd to us and we also look absurd to them.